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Speaker 1: Yesterday. We did indeed speak extensively with the Chief Minister

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Speaker 1: about an eighteen year old being charged with the murder

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Speaker 1: of much loved Territory and Linford Fight Now, at the

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Speaker 1: time of Linford's death, we know the alleged defender was

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Speaker 1: on bail for a raft of serious violent offenses. The

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Speaker 1: teenager first granted bail by an on call judge in

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Speaker 1: late twenty twenty three. The Opposition leader Selena Rubo joins

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Speaker 1: me on the show. Good morning to you, Selena.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you Katie and your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time this morning. Now, Opposition leader,

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Speaker 1: what was your reaction to learning that this eighteen year

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Speaker 1: old alleged defender was on bail at the time that

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Speaker 1: he allegedly stabbed Linford?

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Speaker 2: Katie, I think same sort of reaction. There's many territorians frustration, dismay, confusion.

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Speaker 2: How has something so traumatic for not just one individual

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Speaker 2: and one family, but a whole community being able to

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Speaker 2: happen because of this particular individual who's now made the

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Speaker 2: community feel unsafe. I think a lot of questions, a

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Speaker 2: lot of hurt, of course, but echoing I think some

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Speaker 2: of the sentiments that's been shared already across DNP and

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Speaker 2: leading for more of that detail.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean so many people have said to me,

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Speaker 1: and I said this to the Chief Minister yesterday, and

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Speaker 1: I want to keep it very fair. You know, so

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Speaker 1: many people have said to me, how on earth are

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Speaker 1: we in a situation where somebody can allegedly commit incredibly

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Speaker 1: serious crimes then be out on bail to take the

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Speaker 1: life of an innocent member of the public.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Katie, those questions are absolutely fair. I

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Speaker 2: think there'll be a lot more questions as well. Of course,

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Speaker 2: we're going to Parliament tomorrow. We understand that the final

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Speaker 2: details of the government's changes will be presented. We will

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Speaker 2: get some of that detail today as mbers of Parliament,

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Speaker 2: which my Territory Labor Opposition team is prepared to support.

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Speaker 2: We know that the community expectation around SPALE is very high.

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Speaker 2: We want to make sure that we're constructive in supporting

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Speaker 2: the government changes, but we're also wanting to make sure

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Speaker 2: that the government doesn't suget Katie that the proposals that

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Speaker 2: will come through tomorrow in Parliament will not solve crime aligne.

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Speaker 2: There also has to be a lot of focus on

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Speaker 2: some of the investment around justice services. If we're able

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Speaker 2: to see some of those really high pressures on the

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Speaker 2: justice system in corrections really meet community expectation, we like

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Speaker 2: the government to also ensure that they are focused on

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Speaker 2: that as well, because that's what we're hearing clearly across

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Speaker 2: the territory community. More needs to be done in the

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Speaker 2: justice space.

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Speaker 1: So when we talk about, as you touched on there

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Speaker 1: by the sounds of it, you are prepared to support this.

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Speaker 1: But Parliament obviously being recalled to sit tomorrow the Chief

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Speaker 1: Minister directing the Attorney General's Department to urgently draft this legislation.

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Speaker 1: Now my understanding of it is that it's going to

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Speaker 1: strengthen Declan's Law with additional changes to the Bail Act.

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Speaker 1: The legislation is enacted in New South Wales. It was

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Speaker 1: first highlighted by the Chief Justice, Michael Grant in a

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Speaker 1: statement to media earlier this year. Now, in that statement

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Speaker 1: he said, unlike New South Wales, by way of example,

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Speaker 1: there is no provision in the Northern Territory legislation requiring

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Speaker 1: that bail must not be granted to a youth unless

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Speaker 1: the court has a high degree of confidence the young

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Speaker 1: person will not commit a further offense while on bail. However,

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Speaker 1: it must be born in mind that since the introduction

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Speaker 1: of the New South Wales Provision, the number of youths

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Speaker 1: in custody in that jurisdiction has increased by the thirds

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Speaker 1: two percent. So Selena, just to double check the Opposition

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Speaker 1: is going to support this legislation, Katie.

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Speaker 2: There's two parts to that. There will be the amendments

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Speaker 2: to the Bail Act that'll come through tomorrow. What we

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Speaker 2: understand the work that the Chief Minister and the Attorney

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Speaker 2: General has talked about in terms of youth there's provisions

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Speaker 2: within the Youth Justice Act that will be amended that

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Speaker 2: won't happen tomorrow. That will be a later piece of

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Speaker 2: work that will be brought to the Parliament. So just

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Speaker 2: to make sure that listeners understand, the Youth Justice Act

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Speaker 2: is separate but the prosision Yeah, so that's fine effect,

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Speaker 2: So that won't come in tomorrow, it'll just be the

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Speaker 2: bail amendments proposed by No.

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Speaker 1: We're aware of that. We had a good talk to

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Speaker 1: the Chief Minister about that yesterday. So the Youth Bail Act,

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Speaker 1: there is a raft of work that's going to be

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Speaker 1: happening on that now I will ask you some questions

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Speaker 1: about that in the moment, but just to confirm you

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Speaker 1: will indeed be supporting the strengthening of the legislation around

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Speaker 1: Decklan's Law with additional changes to the Bail Act with the.

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Speaker 2: Bail Act, the one that's being presented tomorrow. Yes, and

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Speaker 2: we'll get the final details from the government today in

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Speaker 2: a briefing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there has indeed been quite a bit of discussion,

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Speaker 1: as you've just touched on as well about the Youth

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Speaker 1: Justice Act. It sounds as though there is a lot

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Speaker 1: more work to happen in this space. But in that

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Speaker 1: Youth Justice Act, there is a section in there sixty

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Speaker 1: four to a which states that the Youth Court may

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Speaker 1: dismiss charges. Now zero point one is subject to sub

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Speaker 1: section two. The Youth Justice Court may, at any stage

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Speaker 1: of the proceedings against a youth in respect of an offense,

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Speaker 1: dismiss the charge in respect of the offense, whether or

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Speaker 1: not the court finds the charge proven against the youth.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that that clause should remain in the

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Speaker 1: Youth Justice.

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Speaker 2: Act, Katie. What we've said before, we were very prepared

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Speaker 2: to be constructive. I've said from the outset when I

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Speaker 2: became your position leader, but I want to be a

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Speaker 2: constructive opposition, so we will definitely look at the work

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Speaker 2: that the government's proposing in that very keen to obviously

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Speaker 2: look at what community expectations are, listening to the legal fraternity,

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Speaker 2: community organizations who are in the field and working with

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Speaker 2: young people and making sure that the any proposals that

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Speaker 2: are made meet community expectation and ultimately make a difference

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Speaker 2: and make community safer. So that we're very keen to

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Speaker 2: be working constructively with the government on that, Katie.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I'm assuming working with victims of crime as well.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, I mean there's a whole range of diverse views.

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Speaker 2: We want to make sure that in opposition we can

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Speaker 2: present those and then ultimately it'll be the decision of

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Speaker 2: the Parliament what goes in, but it will be the

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Speaker 2: process of being able to highlight the pros and cons

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Speaker 2: to the government and make sure that they are also

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Speaker 2: listening to a wide range of people across the community

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Speaker 2: in the field, legal experts and all of the people

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Speaker 2: who support the host victims of crime or organizations that

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Speaker 2: work in that space are very keen.

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Speaker 1: To Positionally, there has been a lot of discussion about

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Speaker 1: bail being granted despite the expectations of the community. Do

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Speaker 1: you think we've got a situation here where the government

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Speaker 1: is going to attempt to continue to strengthen bail and

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Speaker 1: we're going to have judges find ways to still bail offenders.

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Speaker 2: Well, Katie, I think it's really important, and I know

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Speaker 2: people know this, but that separation of power from the

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Speaker 2: judiciary to the executive arm of government is a really

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Speaker 2: important part of the lessiness system. That's what we're in.

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Speaker 2: I think their decisions made by judges often can get

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Speaker 2: questioned by the community, but they are not influenced politically,

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Speaker 2: and I think that that's really important to have that

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Speaker 2: seperation as well.

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Speaker 1: Do you think we've seen situations though, where the decisions

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Speaker 1: being made by judges are not meeting the community's expectations.

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Speaker 2: I think there's probably it's very fair to say that

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Speaker 2: there would be a level of that, But there's also

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Speaker 2: the judges, as they act independently with all the information.

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Speaker 2: Community doesn't always have all the information, and that's the

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Speaker 2: judge's job to look at every single aspect from the

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Speaker 2: decision making and through that legal expertise, which often can

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Speaker 2: frustrate community. Definitely I acknowledge that.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, no, I know you're out on Groot Island. I'll

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Speaker 1: get to that in a minute. And obviously there's some

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Speaker 1: cheeky dogs around. Hey. I do want to ask you though.

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Speaker 1: And I touched on this a moment ago. Earlier this year,

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Speaker 1: we extensively spoke on this show about the granting of

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Speaker 1: compassionate bail to the teenager who subsequently absconded while attending

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Speaker 1: a funeral. Now, as I touched on, Chief Justice Michael

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Speaker 1: Grant took the unusual step of issuing that public statement.

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Speaker 1: Now iner he outlined the factors that judges must consider

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Speaker 1: when assessing the granting of bail for a youth. They

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Speaker 1: include the need to consider all other options before remanding

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Speaker 1: a youth in custody, the need to strengthen and preserve

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Speaker 1: the relationship between the youth and the youth's family, the

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Speaker 1: cognitive capacity, health and development needs of the youth, and

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Speaker 1: if the youth is aboriginal, any issues that arise due

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Speaker 1: to the youth's aboriginality, including cultural background, ties to extended

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Speaker 1: family or place, and any other relevant cultural issues or obligation.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that those factors are taking precedence over

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Speaker 1: the safety of the community.

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Speaker 2: Well, Katie, again that separation of powers and making sure

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Speaker 2: that judiciary makes those decisions. I get that.

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Speaker 1: I totally understand that, but I certainly I put the

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Speaker 1: same question to the Chief Minister yesterday. Do you think

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Speaker 1: that those factors are taking precedence over the safety of

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Speaker 1: the community.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think again I respect the judiciary and those

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Speaker 2: in that independent role that they have in illegal expertise.

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Speaker 2: They have again fair to say that sometimes those decisions

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Speaker 2: do not need the wider community expectations. Katie's very fair

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Speaker 2: to say that.

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Speaker 1: Yet, do you think that if a young person commits

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Speaker 1: an offense that their race should be considered or do

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Speaker 1: you think that, you know, if any person, no matter

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Speaker 1: where they come from, commits an offense that you know,

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Speaker 1: we should all be treated in the same way, Katie.

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Speaker 2: I think anyone who does the wrong thing absolutely needs

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Speaker 2: to face the consequence. I know that here in the

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Speaker 2: Northern Territory there are those provisions around consideration. They are

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Speaker 2: looked at and that's you know, not going to go

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Speaker 2: into the whole history of Australia, but there are those

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Speaker 2: provisions that are now inserted into the law, and that's

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Speaker 2: the judge's job is to make the decisions based on

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Speaker 2: the law.

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Speaker 1: All right, I know that you are calling for more

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court judges as I understand it, What exactly do

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Speaker 1: you want to see happen here to try to speed

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Speaker 1: things up?

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming, yeah, Katie, I said, we want to be

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Speaker 2: solutions based with our territory labor opposition team. Whilst tomorrow's

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Speaker 2: Parliament is purely about the Bail actin looking at strengthening

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Speaker 2: it from the government's proposals and looking at some of

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Speaker 2: the wider range of conversation that has been had, particularly

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Speaker 2: unfortunately last week in light of the tragic loss of

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Speaker 2: miss Effect, the conversations also need to include and we

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Speaker 2: want to make sure that the government is focused on

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Speaker 2: expanding the capacity of our court's Katie, those legal aid

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Speaker 2: services around undoing some of those blockages in the legal system,

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Speaker 2: the pressure that's obviously mounting constantly now on the corrections

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Speaker 2: staff and facilities and offices. I think that can be

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Speaker 2: done in a holistic way. So we're really keen to

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Speaker 2: work with the government and to urge the government to

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Speaker 2: have that full picture and be constructive as we can

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Speaker 2: in opposition while we go through this next phase of

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Speaker 2: focus from the government around bail strengthening. We want to

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Speaker 2: make sure that they can do more than one thing

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Speaker 2: at once of the community expectation is captured and making

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Speaker 2: sure it's done in the constructive way, because no one

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Speaker 2: wants to ever see the tragedy that's been experienced in

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Speaker 2: the last week ever. Again, no a focus on prevention.

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Speaker 2: I think that's very very clear from the community.

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Speaker 1: And Salina really. You know, I don't know if the

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Speaker 1: word's sad or you know, people are starting to feel

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Speaker 1: really angry. But you know, even on the weekend then

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Speaker 1: we had a situation where two people allegedly held up

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Speaker 1: a servo in Alice Springs. One of the well the attendant,

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Speaker 1: ended up being punched and then also assaulted with a knife.

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Speaker 1: We also this morning are obviously just learning from the

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Speaker 1: Fike family themselves that they opened their doors yesterday again

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Speaker 1: to the community. You know, they opened their doors back

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Speaker 1: open to the supermarket and they had a group of

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Speaker 1: people enter the shop and try to steal from them

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Speaker 1: again yesterday. You know, like we have got a really

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Speaker 1: serious issue here and it is not good enough, Like

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Speaker 1: it is not good enough that people are committing these

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Speaker 1: crimes we've got serious issues with knife crime, but just

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Speaker 1: a total lack of respect for each other.

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Speaker 2: Katie. Yeah, I was very disturbed to hear that that

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Speaker 2: incident had occurred. And again but not just in terms

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Speaker 2: of the act, but in terms of the trauma that

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Speaker 2: the family and the staff would have been experiencing because

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Speaker 2: of that. Obviously still at the front of mine, not

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Speaker 2: just for the community, but the workers as well. And

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Speaker 2: I think it is becoming a huge concern when people

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Speaker 2: are hearing of these multiple incidences, not just in one

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Speaker 2: part of the territory unfortunately, Katie, but right across the territory.

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Speaker 2: So that's where again we want to work with the government,

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Speaker 2: be constructive. We want to make sure that their commitment

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Speaker 2: to territories, which was stopping crime, but their commitment to

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Speaker 2: territorians does remain true, does the main front center and

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Speaker 2: is able to be achieved. So that's where will be

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Speaker 2: supportive Katians, but we'll also be highlighting things that we

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Speaker 2: think the government could also be working on in tandem.

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Speaker 1: And Selena, I know we heard from Larachie Nation yesterday.

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Speaker 1: They certainly issued a statement last week calling upon the

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Speaker 1: NLC the other land councils as well to show that leadership.

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Speaker 1: What are Aboriginal leaders and you've got four of them,

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Speaker 1: of course in your caucus doing to call out this behavior.

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Speaker 2: I think we've seen leaders right across the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: and particularly in those Aboriginal organizations, Katie, call this out.

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Speaker 2: For years and years and years have the Aviagual Justice

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Speaker 2: Agreement in the Northern Territory. That was a bipartisan agreement

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Speaker 2: by both the then CLP opposition and the former Labor

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Speaker 2: government obviously in reverse now that still remains in effect.

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Speaker 2: It was bipartisan. It was around solutions that were not

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Speaker 2: just quick fix, about medium and long term solutions led

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Speaker 2: by Averaginal leadership. That document that agreement can also be

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Speaker 2: a leading peace to work on reform for the justice

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Speaker 2: system here in the Northern Territory. I haven't heard the

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Speaker 2: CLP douments talk about that agreement, but I'm very keen

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Speaker 2: to continue working.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely required long terms, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And Averaginal leadership has been talking about reform for many

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Speaker 2: many years.

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Speaker 1: Reform though, But what I'm saying, well, what I'm asking

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Speaker 1: is in terms of calling out some of the dreadful

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Speaker 1: behavior that we are seeing.

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Speaker 2: Again, Katie, I've seen Aboriginal leaders right across the Northern

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Speaker 2: territory four years calling this out.

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Speaker 1: So no, no, I'm saying for your four, for you,

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Speaker 1: you know, for you guys obviously as in our Labor Opposition.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, what was the question?

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Speaker 1: So what you know, what work or what work are

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Speaker 1: you guys doing at this point in time in terms

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Speaker 1: of working with other Aboriginal leaders and also with the

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Speaker 1: communities to try and not only call out I think

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Speaker 1: this behavior, but you know, to help stop some of

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Speaker 1: what we're saying shorter term.

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Speaker 2: Well, Katie, if you're looking at the local level, I

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Speaker 2: know that myself and my other three Labor Opposition members

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Speaker 2: have all got groups operating in our electorates, in our

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Speaker 2: remote electorates around law and justice groups. They are community driven,

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Speaker 2: grassroots community organizations led by local Aboriginal leadership around justice

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Speaker 2: solutions for either a community or a region of communities.

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Speaker 2: So each of the four, four of my teams four

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Speaker 2: have been supporting that for many years. We're starting to

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Speaker 2: see and hear more verbally calls at a wider sense

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Speaker 2: for some of our larger population bases, like what we've

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Speaker 2: heard recently with Larache Nations who Larichie are obviously the

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Speaker 2: traditional owners that Dalana Parmesan region, but there's also people

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Speaker 2: from other areas across the northern territory who are living

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Speaker 2: and working and staying on Larache Country. So how can

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Speaker 2: we support Laracher Nation with some of that leadership when

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Speaker 2: it's not just Larochee people talking about those solutions. It

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Speaker 2: has to be that broader conversation. Again, I go back

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Speaker 2: to the actual Justice Agreement. Our team remains committed to that.

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Speaker 2: We look forward to working and supporting the government in

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Speaker 2: that space and supporting that agreement. But it will always

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Speaker 2: be called out by my team and I and we

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Speaker 2: will continue to support those grassroots solutions and we can

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Speaker 2: see some of them like the Grid Island example I

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Speaker 2: gave you I think it was my last year, Katie,

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Speaker 2: that has been significant drop in numbers of young offenders,

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Speaker 2: young adult and ambilia for male offenders between the ages

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Speaker 2: of eighteen and twenty five years old. And that is

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Speaker 2: community driven, that is culturally safe in the way that

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Speaker 2: it is being delivered, and it has been supported by

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Speaker 2: not just the government but the many organizations in the

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Speaker 2: island archipelagos.

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Speaker 1: With some of those things that have worked, like with

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Speaker 1: something like that that's worked really well, right, How do

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Speaker 1: we though, then transfer something like that to you know,

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Speaker 1: to a major town center. If you've got people wanting

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Speaker 1: to you know, to come to a place like Darwin

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Speaker 1: or to Alis Springs, how do you transfer some of

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Speaker 1: what's worked really well in those communities into our larger

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Speaker 1: town centers, do you think or can it be? In

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Speaker 1: some way?

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Speaker 2: It absolutely can be. And it comes back to that

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Speaker 2: investment in the justice services that I mentioned earlier. So

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Speaker 2: whilst we know that strengthening bail laws is one respect

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Speaker 2: of community safety, Katie, there also needs to be that

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Speaker 2: focus on justice services and that's that holistic services holistic

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Speaker 2: approach I was talking about. So justice services aren't just

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Speaker 2: the legal aid services, Katie. They're the organizations doing that

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Speaker 2: frontline work, working on those programs, doing the community organization programs,

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Speaker 2: offering up other solutions that stop and address the cycle

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Speaker 2: of crime and really focus on getting someone off that

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Speaker 2: wrong track and putting them on the right track. And

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Speaker 2: I think that when we have some of those great

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Speaker 2: examples across the Northern Territory, they are being shared. I

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Speaker 2: know there's some really fantastic work having in Central Australia,

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Speaker 2: and one particular organization is now traveling to other parts

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Speaker 2: of the territory and also working in partnership with those

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Speaker 2: other organizations different parts of territory to expand the model

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Speaker 2: that they've worked on, that they've seen success in and

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Speaker 2: they're working with other organizations to have that locally based solution.

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Speaker 2: So it is we need to see more of it.

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Speaker 2: We also need to see the investment and the resources

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Speaker 2: to support that if we're ever going to see a

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Speaker 2: change in the justice system in the Northern Territory. That

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Speaker 2: also needs to be part of the conversation of the government.

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Speaker 1: All right, Selena, I can't let you go without finding

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Speaker 1: out what is happening on Grood Island at the moment.

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Speaker 1: I know that it's being battered by bad weather over

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Speaker 1: the last few days. It's seen flights canceled. What's the

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Speaker 1: latest update. You're there at the moment, you got that

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Speaker 1: cheeky dog in the background, But what is the latest

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the weather. It's been pretty fullorn, hasn't.

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Speaker 2: It, Yeah, Katie. A week ago back home in Catherine,

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Speaker 2: it felt like the dry season was starting and I

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Speaker 2: was fortunate to be in another part of the electorate

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Speaker 2: in Manaranka and doing the NXAC service there, which was amazing,

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Speaker 2: and then literally just the whole East Aurnham Coast is

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Speaker 2: just being smashed with rain. It is proper, proper wet

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Speaker 2: season rain, not huge thunderstorms, o Katie, just constant wind

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Speaker 2: and rain. So yeah, group's definitely getting its late share

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Speaker 2: of April rain. Hopefully they'll get the dry season. What

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Speaker 2: is it first of May? It might you know, help

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Speaker 2: clear up funnily in the calendar and start the dry

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Speaker 2: But grew is looking beautiful and green, but a couple

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Speaker 2: of rivers have gone up, and the Nuruguo community the

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Speaker 2: other day was cut off. A lot a lot of

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Speaker 2: water happening here. I think ninety five meals in one day,

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Speaker 2: So yeah, a lot of water happening over a short

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Speaker 2: amount of time. But everyone's staying in good spirits, so

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Speaker 2: that is good everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what impact it's having on the mine

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Speaker 1: operations and workers as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the mine operations are continuing the big issue at group, Katie,

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Speaker 2: and I've been meeting with people the last couple of

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Speaker 2: days is the warp reconstruction. And I know there was

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Speaker 2: an article I think giving news this morning around the operations,

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Speaker 2: so the mine's still operating, they're stop filing the manganese,

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Speaker 2: but they need to get that to market. They need

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Speaker 2: to export. That is obviously one of our biggest income

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Speaker 2: earners in the Northern Territory, if not Australia as well.

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Speaker 2: It makes a huge impact in a positive way for

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Speaker 2: our economy in the territory and obviously we've seen some

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Speaker 2: negative impact by not getting that export out to market.

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Speaker 2: So fingers crossed. The twenty four hour work that's been

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Speaker 2: happening literally for the last twelve months to reconstruct the

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Speaker 2: wharf here in Groode Island is starting to come to

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Speaker 2: an endpoint. I think they're meeting there. The time frames

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Speaker 2: a lot quicker than they expected, but hopefully end of

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Speaker 2: May beginning of June, if the wolf's repaired, they'll start

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Speaker 2: to see that export return to market and can get

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Speaker 2: shipped all over the world, which would be a great

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Speaker 2: thing for the Northern Territory and particularly for the operations

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Speaker 2: here at Group.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, spot on, well, Opposition Leader Selena Rubo, really appreciate

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Speaker 1: your time this morning. Are you going to be able

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Speaker 1: to get back here for Parliament tomorrow other flights back?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's my job. Member of Parliament. I will be

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Speaker 2: at Parliament tomorrow, Katie.

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Speaker 1: I thought the f I was wondering whether flights are

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Speaker 1: being canceled or whether you were still able to get

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Speaker 1: in and out.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, unfortunately a couple went canceled yesterday. But first

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Speaker 2: bit of sunshine in about five days here at group,

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Speaker 2: so I'm feeling confident for this morning.

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Speaker 1: Good stuff. Selena Rubo, Opposition Leader, thank you as always

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Speaker 1: for your time.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Katie, thank you