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Speaker 1: Like, hey, you better be doing it earlier because later

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Speaker 1: when you actually maybe do you want them, your body

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Speaker 1: would be like but I was shutting downstrop, now do you.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think of it like oh my god, I

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Speaker 1: can't wait. But I did think, well, like I said,

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Speaker 1: it's going to happen at some point, I'm gonna have kids.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get married. I'm gonna have kids.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna get married by twenty five and they have

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Speaker 2: like kids.

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Speaker 1: I think I said that. I'm sure. I remember you

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Speaker 1: wanted a minivan room by, and I was going to

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Speaker 1: fill up that minivan. I just liked rolling.

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Speaker 2: In a minivan, like to looks like a mom mom.

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Speaker 2: But it's fun being an aunt. Yes, I enjoyed that.

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Speaker 1: I'm always always be careful those Hi. I'm Amanda and

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Speaker 1: I'm Rumby. Welcome to It's like podcasts.

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Speaker 2: We're part of the Blackcast network powered by iHeart, and

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Speaker 2: today we're recording a live in studio in Melbourne.

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Speaker 1: Yea, I'm gonna get over actually saying to you welcome

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Speaker 1: to Marlbourneroom, because I feel like by this time in

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Speaker 1: the season of this podcast, we now all know Rumby's

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Speaker 1: here in Melbourne with us with this beautiful setup at

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Speaker 1: Pink Lady Picnics. Shout out to.

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Speaker 2: Them, and we're the sweet studios black on black on black.

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Speaker 1: As our rumby was trying, I was.

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Speaker 2: Saying, black owned, female led businesses, we're all about that.

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Speaker 2: There eventually all about it.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it so funny. We've talked about weddings, We've talked

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Speaker 1: about rora, we've talked about motherhood, yep. But then when

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Speaker 1: you talked about motherhood would score shout out to her.

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Speaker 1: We never actually talked about that decision you make on

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Speaker 1: whether or not you want to have kids.

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Speaker 2: And the crazy thing is, I'm at that point in

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Speaker 2: my life where I'm like, how do people actually decide

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Speaker 2: because I don't have children yet?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Like, what is the thinking when people say I'm ready

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Speaker 2: or I want to have kids?

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Speaker 1: And do you think Probably maybe I'm being very general here,

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Speaker 1: but the first time ever as black women, we actually

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Speaker 1: have the choice, I think.

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Speaker 2: So I think for our parents' generation now, it was

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Speaker 2: you have to bear an air.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you don't, there's a problem quote unquote,

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Speaker 1: and it's usually the woman's fault. We'll always right, is

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Speaker 1: what those count doesn't happen. Yeah right, or you only

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Speaker 1: bear me daughters? What are wasting? It's like it's the

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Speaker 1: man actually, but anyway, true?

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I yeah, did you know you always wanted

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Speaker 2: to have kids?

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Speaker 1: You know, look, I think growing up in that context,

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Speaker 1: patriarchal context, kids are everywhere. Do you even have a choice?

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Speaker 1: Not too? I think I only thought not too once

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Speaker 1: I got to Australia. So I say, growing up, I

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Speaker 1: always thought. I didn't think of it like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I can't wait. But I did think, well, like I said,

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Speaker 1: it's going to happen at some point when I have kids.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get married, I'm gonna have kids, even though

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Speaker 1: my dating life in Zimbabwe would not have told you

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Speaker 1: any of that was happening, but you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: like it just felt like, of course that's going to

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Speaker 1: happen at some point, and only maybe as I got older,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to have four? What you

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Speaker 1: said you want to four? And then I was like, no,

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Speaker 1: actually I want six, and then two I'm going to Okay,

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Speaker 1: okay that was and then fom is all I can say?

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Speaker 1: Four kids?

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Speaker 2: You know, my grandma gave birth to eleven children. But whoa,

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Speaker 2: I don't know her, poor vagina.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Grandma, Sorry, grandma's with china. But yeah you yuck.

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Speaker 2: Yes, no, I mean those have more than I'm good

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Speaker 2: for you.

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Speaker 1: Eleven is the reality just actually talking about that our parents'

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Speaker 1: generation had lots like siblings upon siblings, true, Like I

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Speaker 1: think generally generally you'd find like people who have five

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Speaker 1: kids were like, oh only five, Like you didn't go

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Speaker 1: for a football team. It was just wild wild, which

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Speaker 1: is like seven and nine were like pretty much standard. Yeah. No,

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know whether I always wanted to have kids.

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Speaker 2: I think I just that whole notion is like I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna get married by twenty five and they have like kids.

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Speaker 1: I think I've said that. I'm sure. I remember you

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Speaker 1: wanted a minivan room by and I was going to

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Speaker 1: fill up that minivan.

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Speaker 2: I just liked rolling in a minivan, like to look

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Speaker 2: like a mom mom. But now I've upgraded. Okay, my

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Speaker 2: dream car is a g wagon.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I rolled with that. I rolled more with

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Speaker 1: that than the mini. Why are you hitting on my minivan?

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Speaker 2: When you said that, we were like, yeah, literally my

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Speaker 2: friends were like, why is that your dream car, I

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Speaker 2: guess the dream of having a family, a soccer mom.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm like, I'm good, yeah, but now I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever had an h to I

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Speaker 2: want to be a mom like yesterday?

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Speaker 1: How do you think one does decide if they want

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Speaker 1: to have kids or or not have kids?

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Speaker 2: These are questions I need answers to because I'm really

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Speaker 2: I think now that I'm closer to the sort of

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Speaker 2: have to make a las Yeah, I'm not like, but actually,

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Speaker 2: what's the thought process behind this? What are you supposed

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Speaker 2: to consider? And me being a type of a personality

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Speaker 2: and a perfectionist and a control I'm like, what are

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Speaker 2: the things I need to go through in making this

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Speaker 2: decision to have the children?

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Speaker 1: So I want to I would love for you to

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Speaker 1: answer that, you know what, I even though I have

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Speaker 1: one child, I don't really think obviously you decide at

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Speaker 1: some point, but I don't think it was this huge moment.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of like do you want to?

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Speaker 1: Should we have? And then you know, like that's how

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Speaker 1: it felt. I'm definitely going through a pandemic. You kind

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Speaker 1: of like question what is life true? Where is life?

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Speaker 1: There's more to life and we decided to go down.

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Speaker 1: I always liken it to it's almost like you have

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Speaker 1: a house, right and you don't know how many bedrooms

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Speaker 1: or rooms are in this house, and you can live

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Speaker 1: your life in only your two rooms and not even realize.

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Speaker 1: And then once you open your room to that third room,

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Speaker 1: door to the third room, you're like, ah, this too,

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Speaker 1: Oh my life is even a little bit bigger. But

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Speaker 1: you still could have lived your life perfectly with only

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Speaker 1: your two rooms. And then each child opens a different

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Speaker 1: door and then you experience more of the house. But

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Speaker 1: it's not to say you couldn't just live your life. Yeah, people,

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Speaker 1: I think now that I have a kid, I'm pro

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Speaker 1: having kids. I'm not. I'm still pro works for you.

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Speaker 1: So for some people those two rooms are like this

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Speaker 1: is my max is enough for me, and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to live my life in the fullest and you know,

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Speaker 1: furnish these two rooms the best I can. And for

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Speaker 1: some it's like I want all the doors open and

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Speaker 1: all the rooms occupied, you know, and that's how they

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Speaker 1: But either way, your house.

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Speaker 2: Still functions, still function I think for me, you know,

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Speaker 2: as I pondered this, I think a lot of it

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Speaker 2: has to do like my readiness. In a lot of ways,

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Speaker 2: I think the partner I chose was kind of clouch

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Speaker 2: in form because I'm thinking about would this partner make

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Speaker 2: a good dad? And would I carry most of the

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Speaker 2: load alone? And do you understand? So I think subconscious

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Speaker 2: even when I was choosing my partner, I was thinking,

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Speaker 2: like I could see him being a good dad. Okay,

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Speaker 2: that also helps you know I love him because he

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Speaker 2: has these qualities For myself, I think in some weird way,

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Speaker 2: with some form of body dysmal feir, I was like

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Speaker 2: when I get a six pack, then other kid, because

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Speaker 2: then muscle memory. Then after it's really dumb, it's really

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Speaker 2: really stupid. Yes, Amanda just gave a long stare at me,

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Speaker 2: but I overthink, like my body can come back. I

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Speaker 2: guess essentially it's a fear of losing self. That's what

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Speaker 2: which happened, which happens with having children. And then I

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Speaker 2: think trying to yield wounds childhood wounds performers also get

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Speaker 2: a do over. But yeah, you know, I think that's

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Speaker 2: because you've seen what has.

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Speaker 1: Been passed on no better do better generational.

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Speaker 2: Quote unquote curses and like difficulties, so you work to

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Speaker 2: try and undo those and when you do that, you

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Speaker 2: feel like maybe I'll be a better prepared parent.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I still don't know if I'm ready to be a parent,

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Speaker 2: to be fair, but I think some of my decisions

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Speaker 2: and the things I'm doing in my life help.

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Speaker 1: It's just unfortunately right because it's not really a decision

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Speaker 1: you can take back. And I feel like now that

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Speaker 1: I'm a parent and I talk to other parents, it's like,

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Speaker 1: if they know now what they know now, would they

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Speaker 1: you know? Then? Some people are really honest, and I

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Speaker 1: love that about our generation. I feel like our parents'

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Speaker 1: generation are very like, oh no, I would never think

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Speaker 1: that the make you feel so guilty for even having

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Speaker 1: any sort of negative thoughts. You can still two things.

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Speaker 1: You can still love your child and still think I

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Speaker 1: have been pushed to my math. Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's unfors same. I mean, with marriage, I guess you

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Speaker 1: can do force or something, but with having kids, it's

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Speaker 1: literally fair for life, so moment for life you cannot

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Speaker 1: take it back. But yeah, in some ways people don't

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Speaker 1: know what they don't know, right, true? So true?

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Speaker 2: But why why is there a pressure to pro create,

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Speaker 2: especially in our modern world?

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Speaker 1: I know with the billion people in the world.

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Speaker 2: And I think our parents, like at least my grandparents,

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Speaker 2: it was like a retirement plan, right that they had

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Speaker 2: x amount of kids. These kids would all take care

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Speaker 2: of them and you know.

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Speaker 1: Provide for them and typically help around the house, Like

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Speaker 1: the oldest sibling would usually be the one thing care

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Speaker 1: of you. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so like, but why the pressure to procreate even

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Speaker 2: in this modern age where.

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Speaker 1: You can live life fully, yeah, without thought? It's you know,

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Speaker 1: I think it's like similar to what we talked about

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Speaker 1: on the weddings episode, where it's a stamp of your relationship,

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Speaker 1: true stamp of the existence of your love, stamp of yeah, exactly, wild,

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Speaker 1: some stamp of on some level you're healthy, your generation,

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Speaker 1: your genes, your what what what carries on? Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I think it's still a primal thing even though, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's your society pressure as well, Like you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're the only if you're the only couple and

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Speaker 1: all your couple of friends are having kids, it only like, well,

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Speaker 1: now we must do because everyone is doing, you know,

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Speaker 1: Like and then I think that's why episodes like this

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Speaker 1: are really good, because you take a moment to be like,

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Speaker 1: but why and I think it's a bit of vanity, right.

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Speaker 2: I want to see yourself in another and you wonder

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Speaker 2: how much.

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Speaker 1: Will they look like me? What qualities will you get

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Speaker 1: from me?

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm like, they don't need these qualities.

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Speaker 1: Like for me, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think like

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Speaker 1: what she said as well before about you know, seeing

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Speaker 1: yourself and someone or just yeah, you're just like can

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Speaker 1: I do this? Yeah? And what will it look like?

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Speaker 2: You know, just experience of I really think procreation is

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Speaker 2: a selfish decision in a way. Like obviously, when you're

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Speaker 2: raising a child, it's very selfless because you have to

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Speaker 2: put their needs and things first. But to bring someone

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Speaker 2: into the world. Maybe it's because we grew up being

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Speaker 2: told you know that you should be grateful your year

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Speaker 2: what what do you know what I mean like where

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Speaker 2: it's like I didn't choose to be here, y'all made

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Speaker 2: that decision and bring me in. So it is I

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Speaker 2: think a selfish decision that requires selfless action.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: So it's like, you know, Jerome didn't say, mommy, Daddy

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Speaker 2: bring me into the world, but you were like, I

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Speaker 2: think I can do this, and I want to bring

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Speaker 2: this new life in. But ultimately had you not Jerome

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Speaker 2: didn't have a say yeah.

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Speaker 1: And similar to weddings, the proof of your love, right,

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Speaker 1: simple thing. Weddings, the bigger the better, So for kids

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Speaker 1: is like the more we have or you know, ore,

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Speaker 1: you get to the point you're like, we're financially stable,

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Speaker 1: We're financially this what's next? And usually in relationships, after

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Speaker 1: the wedding, after the marriage, that's the what next is it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I'm going to play not Devil's advocate, but

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Speaker 2: what's the opposite? Angel's advert God's at I don't know

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Speaker 2: what the opposite is, but I think we're looking at

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Speaker 2: it very like practical terms. But I think people also

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Speaker 2: have children. There's an element of like an extension of

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Speaker 2: love and bringing good people into the world. Not ever,

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Speaker 2: trust me, I don't think everyone feels this way because

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Speaker 2: we've questionable exactly, but I think there's an element of

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Speaker 2: like giving unconditional love and then that gup page, what's

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Speaker 2: the parental one? Anyway that love like and some people

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Speaker 2: feel maybe they're making the world a better place, different

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Speaker 2: and showing some people really feel cold to having children

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Speaker 2: to pour into pour into others. Yeah, I think we're

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Speaker 2: looking very practical but I do think there's some people

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Speaker 2: who feel.

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Speaker 1: There's also the pressure. I mean, we come from Zimbabwe,

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Speaker 1: where abortions are not freely accessible. There's also the pressure

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Speaker 1: of it just happening and then what do you do now,

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Speaker 1: so people being thrown and thrust brust into it as

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Speaker 1: well making a stupid decision and then that leads to

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Speaker 1: consequential you know, you were a kid, Now there's a

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Speaker 1: huge I mean, teenage pregnancies was not uncommon all we

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Speaker 1: come from, So there's like a whole array of different

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Speaker 1: pressures on why. Yeah, I mean, I think it's such

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Speaker 1: a in my opinion in some forms, such a privilege

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Speaker 1: and a Western thing to have the time to ponder

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Speaker 1: and think and and that's why I think we are

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Speaker 1: the first general to I'm pretty sure moms would have

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Speaker 1: just been like, well, that's what you do. Literally, I've

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Speaker 1: had it before.

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Speaker 2: Like I was talking to someone all the working with

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Speaker 2: them and they're like, oh, do you have kids because

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Speaker 2: they knew I was married, and they're.

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Speaker 1: Like, oh, do you have kids? And I was like no.

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Speaker 2: Then she just like looked at me and she's like

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Speaker 2: like why.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I'm just.

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Speaker 2: Not ready, and she was she looked quite perplex like

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Speaker 2: what do you mean, Like that's just.

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Speaker 1: A natural progression.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And then I think she did bring herself like

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Speaker 2: pull herself back, rain herself in a little, and she

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Speaker 2: was like, okay, you're so young, like you have time.

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Speaker 2: But I think in her brain automatically like you get married,

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Speaker 2: you have kids, no, yeah, no brain yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and obviously you've brought up age. Some people do

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Speaker 1: think that, like, hey, would you better be doing it

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Speaker 1: earlier because later when you actually maybe do want them,

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Speaker 1: your body would be like I was shutting downstop now

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Speaker 1: what do you mean? So I feel like all the

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Speaker 1: older moms are also in that respect wise that but

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Speaker 1: they're trying. They do't not articulated where they're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: you can wait, but you can only wait so long,

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Speaker 1: you know, but they're gon, say, how do you put

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Speaker 1: that pressure?

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Speaker 2: And I think also we just in society, the pressure

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Speaker 2: of child raising. Child rearing is on parents now a

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Speaker 2: lot more community is especially if you don't live in

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Speaker 2: a community like in Zimbabwe, are near parents in your family,

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Speaker 2: near a support system, you know that burden falls on

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Speaker 2: us parents. So the financial concern is much bigger now

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Speaker 2: and so typically you need to work longer to make

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Speaker 2: the finances. Do you understand now where we have to

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Speaker 2: things are extending because of that, because you know, if

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Speaker 2: you have a kid without that financial standing, how are

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Speaker 2: you going to take care of them and work without community?

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Speaker 1: As Ye, so many factors you think too much? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you think more than you know? Yeah? Yeah, do you reckon?

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Speaker 1: It's anyone's business or right to comment on whether or

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Speaker 1: not you have kids or in my case, blings for

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Speaker 1: my kid.

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Speaker 2: If your DNA is going to be it's not going

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Speaker 2: to be okay.

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Speaker 1: There's also what a grand business?

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Speaker 2: And there's also like if you're not going to carry

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Speaker 2: the child, like you're not fusing the sperm and the

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Speaker 2: egg yourself, or you're not going to walk through the

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Speaker 2: adoption process or do you understand? Yeah, I don't think

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Speaker 2: it's truly your business. You can allude to wanting to

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Speaker 2: saying you would love grandchildren, or love a niece or nephew.

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Speaker 1: Or it's great, or to say I will support.

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Speaker 2: You in raising your children. You're welcome to do that.

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Speaker 2: But as I've just said, because I think the pressure

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Speaker 2: falls a lot on the immediate parents, I think ultimately

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Speaker 2: that decision needs to be their okay, because there's also

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Speaker 2: health issues.

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Speaker 1: Right yeah, yeah, yeah, but I mean to play devil's

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Speaker 1: advocate as you were. What if it's your partner who's

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Speaker 1: commenting on like but I want kids and you don't

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Speaker 1: want or you're not on the same page essentially.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean typically you try to do that before you,

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Speaker 2: like partner up or you know, get married.

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Speaker 1: How people do do they though conversations?

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Speaker 2: It's compromise, right, Like you can be like I'm having

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Speaker 2: a kid in like ten years and then the partners

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Speaker 2: like I want tomorrow. Like you have to come to

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Speaker 2: like a bridging point because then often that leads to

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Speaker 2: like complete separation if you can't come.

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Speaker 1: I feel like for people who are like undecided or

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Speaker 1: someday it's a bit. But there are some people who

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Speaker 1: are clear nose. Yeah, And I think unfortunately with the

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Speaker 1: way things are set up, the people who are clear

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Speaker 1: nose or clear yes is with a clear no person,

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Speaker 1: you probably have to, as Rob said, talk about it

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Speaker 1: at length before marriage because if your feelings are not

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Speaker 1: going to change of no no kids or yes kids

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Speaker 1: with a no kids person, yeah, it can definitely lead

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Speaker 1: to a lot of bumping heads.

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Speaker 2: And resentment and you hold onto the hope they will

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Speaker 2: change their mind. You never will, or then.

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Speaker 1: You get trapped.

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Speaker 2: You like them basketball players, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: So I think it's only fair. It's not fair if

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Speaker 2: you know and mislead the other person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, vice versa. Yeah. And I think speaking on that,

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Speaker 1: you know, trapping because you talked about the pressure to procreate,

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Speaker 1: some people do feel pressure to my kid would get better,

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Speaker 1: would do better. So then obviously they try to put

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Speaker 1: position themselves in that way if I marry a basketball

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Speaker 1: player or if I get a kid by a basketball player,

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Speaker 1: for life. But just sad, very sad.

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Speaker 2: And how do you feel like this notion of legacy

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Speaker 2: or inheritance?

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Speaker 1: Is it outdated? Do you feel like we hold it?

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Speaker 1: We put too much legacy? Legacy? Who's that? Jay z?

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Speaker 2: Someone said, how is mental health or financial whilst like

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Speaker 2: playing its part or living away from your village. You

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Speaker 2: know it takes a village to raise a child. How

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Speaker 2: is that all playing a part?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Are we all legacy our future generations? Are surnames going

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Speaker 2: on for generations to come?

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Speaker 1: I definitely think we do put a lot of weight.

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Speaker 1: And I think living in despert for me especially, has

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Speaker 1: shown me your family does not have to be blood.

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Speaker 1: So because of that thinking, it's like then legacy and

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Speaker 1: inheritance and you could be killing yourself. I mean both

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Speaker 1: of us have you know, parents with farms, killing yourselves

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Speaker 1: getting these farms. But do we want to now be

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Speaker 1: on your farm? So it's like I feel like before

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Speaker 1: it was always assumed in a family business, you carry

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Speaker 1: it on assume, I shume assume. But now we're living

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Speaker 1: in a world people are open, people are exposed to

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Speaker 1: other ideas. So I think the idea that what you're

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Speaker 1: doing now in twenty twenty four, twenty five will be

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Speaker 1: relevant in twenty forty twenty forty five.

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Speaker 2: For your years is yeah, it's might not be. And

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Speaker 2: also I think to that point around legacy, it's also changed,

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Speaker 2: right because the way and I speak from a millennial standpoint,

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Speaker 2: we are now also taking care of our parents, right,

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Speaker 2: so there's an onus on us to sort of do

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Speaker 2: a lot more for our parents in an economic climate

390
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Speaker 2: that is not what it was when our parents were

391
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Speaker 2: at their peak, you know, earning stage. So sometimes it's.

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Speaker 1: Like I need to help them.

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Speaker 2: And because coming from a country like Zimbabwe where the

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Speaker 2: economy is trash, you really have to step up, and

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Speaker 2: then now you have to raise children at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you're like and provide for other people's children exactly,

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Speaker 2: it's not balancing. So you're like, yo, like do you

398
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Speaker 2: want me to have kids? But it's not balancing. I'm

399
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Speaker 2: not going to get that support. Yeah, you know, the

400
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 2: village support. I'm supporting you.

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Speaker 1: Actually, matter of fact.

402
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Speaker 2: And then I have to take care of a child,

403
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Speaker 2: keep myself saying, whilst also keeping a relationship going and

404
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Speaker 2: also a career thriving.

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Speaker 1: So I can for all this, yes, And I think

406
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Speaker 1: we've realized that that village costs money, Like you can't

407
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: have it naturally, so the only way to try to

408
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 1: obtain it is to pay right. And I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's just it's such a confronting thought that you want, Okay,

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00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,200
Speaker 1: you want to go on a date night to get

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Speaker 1: a babysitter. What are you doing? But you're not going

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Speaker 1: to able to be like, oh, mom, dad, come and babysit,

413
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Speaker 1: you know. So it's like all these things that our parents,

414
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Speaker 1: for example, would take for granted are serious things we

415
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 1: have to have.

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Speaker 2: To consider consider And you know, if things were better,

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Speaker 2: you'd almost have the support of them saying I will

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Speaker 2: you know, take care of or I will help set

419
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Speaker 2: up that trust for your child.

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Speaker 1: I will.

421
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Speaker 2: But it's not like that, not like we're not fortunately no.

422
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Speaker 1: No, we're not at that level yet. We might, we're

423
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Speaker 1: striving to be, but definitely a lot of things pull

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Speaker 1: us back. And even visas right because you know, like

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Speaker 1: even if my parents want to come here and help,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, do I get them at three month visa?

427
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Speaker 1: That's the only one that's like freely availed or not

428
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 1: freely but easily available. And you're thinking, but it's only

429
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: three months, that's gonna go. Like when you're taking care

430
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Speaker 1: of a kids, you want someone for years for sure,

431
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Speaker 1: you know. So it's like even in that, then looking

432
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Speaker 1: at the investment of like those year visas is like

433
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Speaker 1: the cost so it's like so prohibitive. Even if you

434
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Speaker 1: do have people who were willing and can be that village, yes,

435
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Speaker 1: it ends up coming down to money.

436
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 2: And then how does it feel for you as a

437
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:32,439
Speaker 2: mom when you see other people with their village. And

438
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 2: that's something that I don't think we really talk about,

439
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 2: where you see people who maybe have never had the

440
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: experience of being separated from community, and they automatically. For me,

441
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 2: it was when I was a teacher and I would

442
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 2: see grandparents come, like like grandparents from the mom's side

443
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 2: coming to drop off in the morning, or the.

444
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 1: Grandparents on the dad's side coming to.

445
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 2: Pick up in the afternoon, showing up for plays, the

446
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 2: mom coming this time, like just that rotation and that

447
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: closeness and cousins and proximity, and you see that things

448
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 2: we were fortunate to have growing up that have now standard.

449
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you feel, Oh, there's how the heartbreak

450
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: you feel. Like as the day care which Jerome goes to,

451
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,239
Speaker 1: they have grandparents day and you come and read, and

452
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 1: the heartbreak you feel when your kid doesn't ask someone

453
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 1: to represent them. Then you think, okay, do I go,

454
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: but I'm not a grandparent. And then you know, like

455
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 1: its thankfully with Australia being so full of migrants, you

456
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 1: know your kid is not the only one. There's going

457
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,640
Speaker 1: to be another kid there and they're probably gonna sit

458
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 1: there in solidarity as the kids who don't have grandparents.

459
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 1: But it's still heartbreaking. You know. There's a different heartbreak

460
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: of course for those who don't have grandparents at all,

461
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 1: but when you do have them, but they're not there.

462
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: There's also a heartbreak for that where it's like I

463
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 1: couldn't even you know, try and to facilitate this, you know,

464
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: and then you hold on to the little moments and

465
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: you go visit family or so. I feel like people

466
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: don't know how good they have it, yes, until you

467
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: know how good you have it, you know what I mean,

468
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 1: until you hear someone else saying how are you handling this?

469
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: Like they're going on and on about oh my mom

470
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: can only do pick up and not this, and I'm like, well,

471
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: at least she's there, you know. And it's hard to

472
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: have those conversations with people right and not sound bitter.

473
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: But you're not bitter. You're just talking stating fats you

474
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 1: know that. Oh for me, it's completely set up differently.

475
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: Is that privilege?

476
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 2: Privilege that sometimes you're not aware of until you're aware

477
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,360
Speaker 2: of Like someone else says, oh that's not normal for me.

478
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah. And then like even when you're talking

479
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: about people commenting on whether to give a sibling or not,

480
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: you're like, well, I want them to be in touch

481
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: with their German or Zimbabwean side. That's going to cost yes.

482
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: So now it's like either I give them a sibling

483
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: or and they never see their actual other family. Yeah,

484
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: and not to mention the fact that, you know, do

485
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 1: you actually want another child in the house, but even

486
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: just the logistics and nancers around that, and people talk

487
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 1: to you as if you've not considered it. You're like people.

488
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: I really think people move around in this world thinking

489
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 2: that them saying to you, oh, you better have a

490
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: kid soon because you know, like time is running out,

491
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 2: Like you do not know.

492
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: That, yeah, and like I have thought about that, and

493
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: this is how And I feel like also there's this

494
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: whole trench mentality, whether it's to have kids or not

495
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 1: have kids, where it's like I've made this decision, you

496
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: make the same as me, So you know, yeah, together

497
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: no sense.

498
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: But you ain't gonna be up at one am. But

499
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: that's a topic for another day. And so with blended

500
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: families now more common in modern society, or other forms

501
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 2: of parenting like fostering, adoption, black tax, which really is

502
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: like raising other people, you know, kids, taking care of

503
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 2: other family members and so on and so forth, is

504
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 2: there a need to have kids of our own given

505
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: this plethora of responsibility that we've been well endowed with

506
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: and blessed in our modern society.

507
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 1: You know, practically, I probably say, no, you don't need

508
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: to write. I'm sure there's lots and lots of kids

509
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: that need loving homes. Yes, But I think it's going

510
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: back to your point. There's something innate in us to

511
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: have your own if possible. So I think that's why

512
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: we always revert to it. You know, people who do

513
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: end up adopting or fostering or bonus moms or you know,

514
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: it's almost happens. Thats like it just happens, or after

515
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: they've had a few of their own and they think, oh,

516
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 1: I really like doing this, they now look into other

517
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: But our first point of call is always your own.

518
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: And I don't know if that's a genetic trying to

519
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: keep your own genes going or it's but yeah, there's

520
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: no need, there's no need.

521
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: But I do think the fact that we've come from

522
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: the Stone Age or Adam and Eve, whatever you believe,

523
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: to this point, and we continue to create, I think

524
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: it speaks to the non logical aspect of us as humans.

525
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 2: I think we over intelligize, if that's a word, Like,

526
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: we really look at ourselves as really educated and informed,

527
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 2: but we often ignore the sort of animalistic sense, the

528
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 2: primal aspects of ourselves, which is relationship and the need

529
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,479
Speaker 2: for relation, and that we are wired to want to

530
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: have these connections. And I think, you know, speaking on

531
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: our other episode on the Internet and connection, I think

532
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: we do desire that human one on one interaction, even

533
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 2: though the society makes it feel like we don't need it.

534
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: So ultimately, I think that decision sometimes doesn't make logical

535
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 2: sense because I've been pondering this, like why do we

536
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: have kids?

537
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: Why do we want kids? Why do I want kids?

538
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: Do I want kids?

539
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 2: How can I have kids?

540
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: Like?

541
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: But I think ultimately sometimes the answer isn't logical, and

542
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: I think sometimes try to over complicate and analyze the

543
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: decision that comes from it. It's just something that something

544
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 2: that is is yeah, And it's scary because humans we

545
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: always want the reason but why?

546
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: But why?

547
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 2: But and science has told us that we always need

548
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,159
Speaker 2: to know the why why why?

549
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: And so I.

550
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: Think if you feel it in you that maybe I

551
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 2: could be a parent, or I think this would be nice,

552
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: or if you fall into it, sometimes right, it's like

553
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: then you're just forced into that. But I think if

554
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: for you, centuries we've continued it's like it's.

555
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: Like why but then also why not right? Not?

556
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's fun being an aunt. Yes, I enjoyed that.

557
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: I still enjoy being more of an aunt than the moment.

558
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: It was a lot of fun, but it was also

559
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: fun being a mom. Like, there's definitely some aspects of

560
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: it where I'm like, you know, you get to be

561
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: a kid again, you get to the things you sustress about.

562
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: Now I'm just like, so chill, Yeah, I'm sure you know.

563
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's just it. But having said that's

564
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: my journey, there's some people who find it highly strong,

565
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: highly strong, highly so it's such a thing because, as

566
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: are saying at the top of the episode, if people

567
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: know now would they But honestly, you can't or probably

568
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: can't without that village we spoke of, yeah, to make

569
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: it work anyway.

570
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if this conversation helped you decide

571
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: whether or not you want to have kids. If you do,

572
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,479
Speaker 2: it might be too late. If not, good luck. But

573
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 2: I think it's just.

574
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: And you can also be rich anti vibes. Where nothing

575
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: wrong with that. Every kid needs to be spoilt. Yes, yes, yes,

576
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: I think you know. Look, if you're rich anti vibes

577
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: or whatever. Not having kids and you worry for your future,

578
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: thinking you'll be alone, invest on those relationships. True, that's actually,

579
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: you know, there's lots of kids out there who do

580
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: want that connection. And again, family is not always blood,

581
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: so there's avenues to enjoy communit unity without actually and

582
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: sometimes I am very envious of people slapping in, so

583
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Definitely. Thank you, Thank you everyone, Thank you

584
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. At you on the next episode. Bye,