1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Who wants to be led by someone who's burnt out. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: That's what I asked myself and also what I told 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: myself in twenty twenty four. So I hit my burnout, 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: I just kept on pushing through and I nearly broke everything. 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: In this episode, I'm pulling back the curtain on how 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: I rebuilt not just Inventium's company culture, but also my 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: own confidence as a leader. I'll be sharing what finally 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: pulled me out of the fog, the conversations that rebuilt trust, 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: and how I turned one of my biggest leadership failures 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: into one of our company's biggest breakthroughs. And once again, 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: just like last week, I am joined by my incredible friend, 12 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:50,480 Speaker 1: clinical psychologist Savina Reid. If you're leading a team, navigating change, 13 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 1: or just feeling stuck, this episode is packed with lessons 14 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,959 Speaker 1: that I learned the hard way so that you don't 15 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: have to And if you miss part one, go back 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: and listen, because this story makes the most sense when 17 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: you hear what came before. 18 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, 19 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,559 Speaker 2: and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor 20 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: Amantha Imber. 21 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 3: You also shared in the article. We've talked about psychological safety, 22 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 3: You've talked about how you've had employees there for a 23 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 3: long time and tenure average tenure is very is long 24 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 3: compared to other organizations, which is a credit to invent him. 25 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 3: But with tenure can become well, you tell me, what 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 3: do you think long tenure? What are the risks of 27 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 3: tenure for people in an organization and culture. 28 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: Like tenure obviously has a whole host of benefits, and 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: I won't go into those because I think that they're 30 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: well trodden and everyone knows what they are. But tenure 31 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: also has a shadowside, and I feel like I really 32 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 2: experience that. In twenty twenty four, where we had very 33 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 2: high tenure, a ten year is actually dropped and I'm 34 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: quite happy about that, which might sound strange, but I 35 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: feel like the thinking is a lot fresher because of it. 36 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 2: What I found happening, and this was not across the board, 37 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: but on occasion, you know, I'd be talking to someone 38 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 2: who'd worked in the business for many, many years, and 39 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 2: I think i'd noticed this for a good couple of years, certainly, 40 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 2: like in twenty twenty three was probably when I first 41 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 2: began to be hyper aware of it, and it just 42 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 2: kind of continued into twenty twenty four. Is that as 43 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: someone and sometimes that someone would be me, like I 44 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: have a friend who yeah, so I would notice that 45 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: sometimes I would bring up an idea or a thought like, oh, 46 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: I think we should do this, and I would be 47 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: met with resistance from, you know, someone that had been 48 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 2: with the business for years and they'd seen all the 49 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: whole journey that we've been on over the last decade, 50 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: and they would use an experience from years ago or 51 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: data from years ago to go, well, that's not going 52 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: to work, because we tried it then and it didn't work. 53 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: And ironically, you know, a large part of what we 54 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 2: do in Inventium is innovation consulting and capability building, and 55 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: it's exactly what we teach our clients not to fall 56 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: into the trap of that we tried it last year 57 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: and it didn't work. And it was quite scary for 58 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 2: me to realize that that was happening within Inventium. Again, 59 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: not across the board, but there were just quite a 60 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: few instances where I had been experiencing it and it 61 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: was happening for a couple of years, and as I say, 62 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: it's the shadow side of tenure that is really I mean, 63 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: like God, if it's happening at Inventium where we're talking 64 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 2: about innovation every day, I mean, it can happen everywhere, 65 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: and it is so detrimental to growth and improvements and 66 00:03:58,040 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: new things happening. 67 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 3: And I've seen this less organizations and coach different individuals 68 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 3: who are newer, so not the longer tenured people who say, 69 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 3: I thought I was brought on board here to bring 70 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 3: fresh insights and new perspectives, but whenever I raise them, 71 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 3: everyone says, no, that's not how we do it, or 72 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 3: that hasn't worked before. And it's also we're talking about tenure, 73 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 3: you and I. But I also would use the word legacy. 74 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 3: Sometimes long term employees are so attached to the legacy 75 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 3: or a brand of what used to be in the heyday, 76 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 3: they can't let go of that, and they do a 77 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 3: disservice to the new voices and the new ideas that 78 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 3: come to the point where the new ideas and the 79 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 3: new voices feel unheard or undervalued or they never said that. 80 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 3: The dial shift on their thoughts or their contribution, and 81 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 3: they leave, and so then you end up sitting with 82 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 3: the same tenured crew sort of stirring in the same pot, 83 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 3: and you're not going to get not just innovation, but 84 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 3: you're not going to get any shift to a it's 85 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 3: change or growth or new ways of being or doing things. 86 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 3: So I think we have to be careful when new 87 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 3: people come on board. And another parallel, I always like 88 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 3: to think outside that. You know, he's another therapy example. 89 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 3: One of the things that we know about research in 90 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 3: the best therapist I'm talking about set of clinical psychological 91 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 3: settings is not of course rapport is the number one 92 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: is the number one efficacy factor in therapy, but how 93 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 3: long a therapist has trained for it actually doesn't have 94 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 3: a huge bearing always on the outcomes. And sometimes newer 95 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 3: therapists are open and curious and they want to try 96 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 3: new things, and that can bring fresh perspectives for the 97 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 3: client as well. And I think that's the same in business. 98 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 3: So again with regards to age or even experience, a new, 99 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 3: fresh bright employee might have ideas that no one's ever 100 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: thought about before, and when they speak up, everyone's like, well, 101 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 3: you know, she's sort of the junior or the grad 102 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 3: or what would she or he know, Let's not judge 103 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 3: someone by how long they've worked a in the organization 104 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 3: or even b full stop yes money. 105 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: I was thinking about one idea I had that got 106 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: squashed down in twenty twenty three, and I was a 107 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: pretty early adopter of. 108 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 4: Genai and you were trail blazing. 109 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 3: You're getting two thumbs up from me on that. 110 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,679 Speaker 2: Now, thanks being so like've been using it multiple times 111 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: a day for two and a half years, sin we 112 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 2: five since since I was in the womb. But in 113 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 2: all serious it's like, you know, really since the launch 114 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: of chat JPT in late twenty twenty two and in 115 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, I thought. 116 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 4: I feel like there's an opportunity here for Inventium. 117 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 2: You know, we're known for productivity, and I was certainly 118 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 2: like dramatically changing my own productivity through using Genai. And 119 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: my own productivity was like, you know, pretty high, but 120 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: it was just being completely transformed. And you know, I 121 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: remember I said to a couple of members of the team, 122 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: so I think we should like try something around this 123 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 2: Genai stuff. I think that there's something really here. And 124 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: I did this half hearted experiment and then it was 125 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 2: just poo pood and then I just thought, okay, I'll 126 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: just shut up. But then the midway through gosh, no, 127 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: it would have been towards the tail end of twenty 128 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: twenty four, because that's when we really launched some pretty 129 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: major GENAI offerings in terms of capability building, and I 130 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: was back in the CEO role. You know, I just 131 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: felt so strongly about it that there was an opportunity 132 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 2: there for Inventium to you know, really do some great 133 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: work in that space. And you know, I now look 134 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: at you know, how those experiments have turned out, and 135 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: I mean it's now, you know, about a quarter to 136 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: a third of our company's revenue, you know, just in 137 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: a six month period of really going Okay, let's run 138 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: some more experiments here, and let's really back this. And 139 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 2: I kind of think, gosh, like, imagine if I was 140 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: still in a similar sort of mindset of how I 141 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: was in twenty twenty three, this huge opportunity just wouldn't 142 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: have happened. 143 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 3: So there's something there. I know, your AI master Class. 144 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 3: I'm going to give a unpaid shout out. This is 145 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 3: not a sponsored comment, because I've done your AI Masterclass 146 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 3: and it's phenomenal, and I think so many people are 147 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 3: fearful or they think maybe I won't have to look 148 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 3: at it in that amount of depth, and yet there's 149 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 3: not one person on the planet that wouldn't benefit from 150 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 3: your masterclass in whatever work they do. It's interesting that 151 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 3: you had that idea and then is it back on 152 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 3: the likability slash acceptance piece that you back down or 153 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 3: was it because you weren't in the role of appointed 154 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 3: anointed CEO? What was it that had you? 155 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a really it's a fine balance 156 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: when you're the founder of a company but you're not 157 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 2: the CEO. And at the points in time where we've 158 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: had a CEO and I haven't been in that role, 159 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 2: I've been very mindful of how hard or not hard 160 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: to push my ideas because ultimately, I've hired a CEO 161 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 2: for a reason, and personally, that's really hard because as 162 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: the founder, I want my business to be successful. It's 163 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: like my business baby. But I'm more so mindful that 164 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 2: you'll point to CEO to give them as much autonomy 165 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 2: as you know as you can. 166 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 3: That makes a lot of sense, and I know there'd 167 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 3: be a lot of people listening. I've worked with a 168 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 3: lot of organizations and startups who have exactly that kind 169 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 3: of rub and it's very hard to let go of 170 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 3: your baby, and yet you are appointing someone to manage 171 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 3: and drive in different ways to you, with new ideas 172 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 3: and fresh perspectives. And I'm thinking of something that I 173 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,599 Speaker 3: think you and I have talked about this off the airwaves, 174 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 3: Gibor Mattei's work on connection versus authenticity. It's one of 175 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: the greatest dichotomies that resonates with me or spectrums. I 176 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 3: guess it's if not a dichotomy, and it's coming back 177 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 3: in what we're talking about now. Gaboard talks about how 178 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 3: we're hardwired to be authentically who we are. We're also 179 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 3: hardwired to be connected to others. And in the vein 180 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 3: of what we're discussing now, a CEO or a leader 181 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 3: or a manager is wanting to be that connected to 182 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 3: their people in whatever way that's meaningful to them. But 183 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 3: if they're not authentically bringing their own thoughts and ideas 184 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 3: to the table, that's going to come at a cost. 185 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 3: And the connection piece is not going to make up 186 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 3: for losing your voice and the authenticity piece. I think 187 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 3: where some leaders or some humans go wrong as we 188 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 3: say I'm being authentic and then they just let rip 189 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: under the guise of but it's just authentically me, so 190 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 3: I can say or do whatever I like because I'm 191 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 3: just speaking my truth. That phrase is a red herring 192 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 3: for me. Speaking my truth doesn't mean that whatever comes 193 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 3: after I say that is just a free for all 194 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 3: with no consequences, particularly as a leader. I want to 195 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 3: move on because you've touched so many important points and 196 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 3: we haven't covered them all. Another one in the article 197 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 3: that you talked about was the emotional low point forgetting 198 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 3: that storms part us. So when you were in it, 199 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 3: you felt, I guess, helpless, stuck and you couldn't see 200 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 3: any blue skies ahead. So tell me a bit about that. 201 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 2: I remember I was so stuck, and I was so 202 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 2: also falling victim to catastrophization, which I'm sure everyone experiences 203 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: at certain points, and the biggest catastrophe for me I 204 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 2: think that I kept coming back to is what if 205 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: the business doesn't survive? Like what if this business that 206 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: has been going for, you know, seventeen years at the 207 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 2: time doesn't make it through this storm, like this really 208 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: hard financial environment that we're in, the different you know, 209 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 2: internal dynamics that were going on. 210 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 4: What if we don't survive? 211 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 3: I want to pick up on that because you do 212 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 3: talk often about catastrophizing and you're aware of it. As 213 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 3: you say, it's a really common practice. You're non certainly 214 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: alone there, but you are aware of it, and yet 215 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 3: you still went to a worst case scenario. So, just 216 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 3: from a learning perspective, if the business didn't survive, this 217 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 3: is a hypothetical now, so hopefully it's not retraumatizing. If 218 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: the business didn't survive, what would that have looked like? 219 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 3: Because I'm sharing this more from a hope for your 220 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 3: listeners that sometimes we need to explore what we anticipate 221 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 3: as being the bottom of the barrel, the bottom of 222 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 3: the spiral, to be able to realize that we can 223 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 3: tolerate it, We can find new new ways to move 224 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 3: through it, we can find different solutions. So what would 225 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 3: that have meant to you? Because that was you were 226 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 3: You couldn't even look at it. 227 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, there are a couple of things going on for me. 228 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 2: First, I thought, you know, in my lowest moments, like 229 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: what if I have to pull the pin on this business. 230 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: That means having conversations with everyone on the team to 231 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,839 Speaker 2: say you no longer have a job, and to say 232 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 2: it made me feel stick in the stomach, is an understatement, 233 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: like just the thought of that conversation. You know, I 234 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 2: take employing people and paying people's salaries and creating like, 235 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 2: you know, a good work environment, and you know, my 236 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 2: ideal is to create the best place anyone has ever 237 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 2: worked that comes to Inventium, and I take that so seriously. 238 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 2: Which is also why I think twenty twenty four was 239 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 2: really hard, because I don't think, you know, for some 240 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: of the team, it was at that point in time, 241 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 2: the best place they'd ever worked, even though it might 242 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: have been previously. So there's that because if a business dies, 243 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: then you don't employ anyone anymore. So that was the 244 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: first thing. And then the second thing was it actually 245 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: wasn't as bad. Like I'm like, who am I without Inventium, 246 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 2: And I'm. 247 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 4: Like, well, I know who I am. 248 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: You know, I still have lots of other projects outside 249 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 2: of Inventium, like this podcast, I write books, so to 250 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 2: keynote speaking, you know, I have full faith that I 251 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: would be absolutely fine, But I don't know. I also 252 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: think to close down a business that feels like a 253 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 2: really big failure, and it feels like a personal failure, 254 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: that feels very scary. 255 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it makes sense and I think the order 256 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 3: that you've shared those is not in consequential or insignificant. 257 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 3: That it's about the care of others. And it's the 258 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 3: same reason that you were struggling that we discussed at 259 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 3: the start of this conversation about not wanting to make 260 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 3: people redundant. So you don't want to make one person redundant, 261 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 3: and you are in a state of freeze over that 262 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 3: you certainly don't want to make all people redundant. Yeah, 263 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 3: so the care of their well being, their livelihood, their meaning, 264 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 3: their purpose there belonging, all the things that they get 265 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 3: from working at inventium. That makes sense that you don't 266 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 3: want to go there. You know rationally that you can 267 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 3: do other things. But I think that's pretty loud, and 268 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 3: I think that's probably true for many business, small business owners, 269 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 3: particularly this sense of responsibility. 270 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: We will be back soon. 271 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: And if you're thinking, yep, I've been there, burnt out, 272 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: doubting myself, trying to hold it all together, keep listening 273 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: because in the second half I share what actually he 274 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: helped me turn things around, like the real stuff, radical honesty, 275 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: rebuilding trust, and the moment I knew we were finally 276 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: back on track. 277 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 4: If you lead a team, or. 278 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: If you've ever felt like you're faking it, what's coming 279 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: up next might hit home in the best possible way. 280 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 2: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 281 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: you work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter 282 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 2: that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. 283 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. 284 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: That's Amantha dot com. 285 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 3: But then you started to realize, no, this is not 286 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 3: a permanent situation. And what happened. 287 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 2: I think it really struck me in January when you 288 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 2: know the team and there had been a lot of change, 289 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: but the team as is, you know, the team for 290 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five and hopefully many years beyond. 291 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 4: You know, we got. 292 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: Together for a couple of days and it's like it shifted, 293 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 2: Like I remember the last time we were together as 294 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 2: a team face to face, and it was really different. 295 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: And when we got together and you know, in twenty 296 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: twenty four and in twenty fwfty five, I just remember 297 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: like walking into that and walking away from those two 298 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: days going ah, we're back, We're back to what is 299 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 2: the inventium that I know and love, And it was 300 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: such like a powerful, beautiful realization and to just like 301 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: think back over you know, twenty twenty four, and really 302 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three wasn't fantastic either, but you know, I 303 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: think that was probably why twenty twenty four was so intense, 304 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: because it had been building up for more than you know. 305 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 4: Just nos off January twenty twenty four and it was. 306 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 2: Like, Wow, it's back, it's back, Like this is amazing, 307 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 2: and I can't believe it's kind of happened so quickly 308 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: in the sense that you know, the last team catch 309 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: up was only a few months prior to that, and 310 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 2: it's like, wow, things feel really different now. 311 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 3: And not due to the passage of time, but because 312 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 3: what you did with that time. 313 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, I would like to think, so, yeah. 314 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 3: One hundred percent. And why would a business not ebb 315 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 3: and flow like a human or a relationship or a 316 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 3: family unit, or a health or you know, every other 317 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 3: part of our life. Why would it stay fixed? And 318 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 3: if it did stay fixed, what would it say about 319 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 3: the organization and the culture. 320 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 2: Well, I think what's different about business is that we've 321 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: got metrics that we're tracking, Like you know, we're tracking revenue, 322 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 2: we're tracking profit, we're tracking engagement, we're tracking all sorts 323 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: of things, and you know, there are indicators of how 324 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 2: well are we going, how good is the business health? 325 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 2: But I think about say relationships or parenting, and there's 326 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 2: no scoreboard. So I think, you know, when things go 327 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 2: off track, it's a little bit murkier, like you feel it, 328 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 2: but in business you feel it, but you also see 329 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: the metrics. 330 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 3: So and health I guess as well. You know, there 331 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 3: are so many available metrics for our health that we 332 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 3: can measure, but often which is not to which is 333 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 3: not too because we're fearful. What is if I measure 334 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,400 Speaker 3: something and I find out something that doesn't sit well 335 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 3: with me, Yeah, well that overwhelms me. Yeah, but I 336 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 3: think that the story here is, yes, metrics matter, but 337 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 3: even with some basic metrics, you know, organizationally or personally, 338 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 3: when something's going off course. Yeah, and it's not the 339 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 3: passage of time that will course correct you definitely not, 340 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 3: but many people hope it is. Wow, that was a 341 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 3: few weeks or a few months ago now, so you 342 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 3: know things should have settled. 343 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, And like I had my hope strategy at the 344 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: start of twenty twenty four, just hoping, ah, things will change, 345 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 2: things will change. 346 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 3: But then you changed them. There's definitely a message here 347 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 3: for listeners and for all of us to be aware 348 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 3: of the fears, the catastrophizing, the freeze, whatever the response is, 349 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 3: and that's okay in the moment. It's kind of a 350 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 3: band aid that keeps us safe while we're floundering, and 351 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 3: then we need to rip the band aid off and 352 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 3: make moves to shift in different directions. One of the 353 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 3: other areas that you talked about was radical transparency, ownership rebuilding, 354 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 3: and it was about repairing trust and culture, and you 355 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 3: mentioned being radically transparent with your team. What do you 356 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 3: mean by that? Some of these buzzwords and catchphrases, but 357 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 3: what did it mean for you? 358 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: For me? 359 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 2: I had certainly spent the first few months of twenty 360 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 2: twenty four trying to hide from my team just how 361 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 2: hard I was finding things because because I felt like 362 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: they would lose confidence in me, and they would lose 363 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: confidence in the business. I think, you know, if anyone 364 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: knew like just how low and like depleted and then 365 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 2: you know, gradually burnt out, I was like, who wants 366 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 2: to be led by someone like that? And who would 367 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: have faith that they're making good decisions? And I think 368 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 2: that's what was going through my head. And I remember, 369 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 2: you know, when I did share more publicly my burnout experience, 370 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: and I think I did that maybe like when the 371 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 2: worst had passed, like maybe I don't know, July, August, 372 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 2: September last year, something like that. I remember someone in 373 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: my team told me that someone else in my team again, 374 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 2: like all these back channel conversations had questioned like why 375 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: wasn't I just honest at the time, And you know, 376 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 2: I thought, that's interesting that they feel that way, and 377 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,479 Speaker 2: I felt like it wasn't an option for me, and 378 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 2: also it wouldn't have served the team particularly well to 379 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: know where I was at. And I felt like I 380 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 2: just had to keep pushing through and I would make 381 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: it through and then I could share it. 382 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 4: But I didn't feel like I could share it at 383 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 4: the time. 384 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, isn't that interesting that they said that, 385 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: And isn't that interesting that they didn't give the feedback 386 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 2: to me directly? 387 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 3: And also is it possible that they were sort of 388 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 3: in tune with your burnout anyway and your state of 389 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 3: mind without you putting words to it. 390 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 4: I'm sure they must have been. 391 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 3: I mean, so it's a false sense of security that 392 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 3: we're like, well, I haven't shared it, so they don't 393 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 3: know it. 394 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 4: Hmm, yeah, that's right, that's right. 395 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 2: And I think I gradually began to realize that, and 396 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: I think I started sharing more and more and again, 397 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 2: like as of this year, you know, and again like 398 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 2: I you know, I think back to, you know, as 399 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 2: early as January in the off site, there were things 400 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: that I shared with the team then that I just 401 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: never would have thought to share, you know, months prior. 402 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 2: So I've become, I guess, very aware of like sharing 403 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 2: as much as I can. You know, obviously, it's hard 404 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 2: when you're a leader because you know a lot of 405 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 2: things that are confidential and you can't reach anyone's confidentiality, 406 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 2: even though if only you could, it would create much 407 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 2: needed context for like some of the things that you've done. 408 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 2: But I'm really aware of just going I just need 409 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 2: to be as honest as I can be. 410 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: When do you think we overshare as opposed to radically share? 411 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 3: What's the difference. 412 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 2: I feel like oversharing is more in the person that 413 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 2: is sharing's best interest. I feel like it's almost a 414 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 2: narcissistic kind of thing to do. I feel like that 415 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 2: word is so overused but you know, oversharing just feels 416 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: like I just want some attention and sympathy and so forth, 417 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 2: Whereas you know, I think what I try to do 418 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: is go, look, I want to be honest, but I 419 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 2: want to be honest in a way that serves my team. 420 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 3: And I think, you know, the narcissist is a pointy 421 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 3: end of oversharing. Sometimes people overshare because they're trying to 422 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 3: make sense of their own experience, and to do that, 423 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 3: they talk it out and they're not thinking about who 424 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 3: they're sharing it with. One minute, they're in the kitchenette, 425 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: then they're on an email, then they're on a phone call, 426 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 3: and they're just sharing and sharing and sharing. So that 427 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 3: may not come from a need for adulation validation. 428 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and it might also just come from I 429 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 2: just want some support and I need to be seen. 430 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 3: Sense checking as well, I'm feeling this, I'm feeling this, 431 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 3: you're almost checking is it your experience as well? In 432 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 3: a casual, non formal setting, you're looking for people to say, oh, 433 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 3: that's how i'm feeling as well, or what you know, 434 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 3: that's not what the team is feeling. So this is 435 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 3: this is on you. So I think it's a really difficult, 436 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 3: and I think a lot of leaders struggle with that. 437 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 3: And you know, cute us to you, Amantha for sharing. 438 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 3: You've shared every time we've got on the mic, certainly 439 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 3: when we're not on the mic, but generally behind the mic. 440 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 3: You share so much that I know Foreshore, so many 441 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 3: listeners who run businesses, who manage people, whether they're a 442 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 3: business owner or not, well have had the same experiences, 443 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 3: some of the same thoughts, some of the same fears, 444 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 3: and we're too frightened to share them. As you say, 445 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 3: we don't want to be judged as a failure, and 446 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 3: we wouldn't want someone We don't want to jeopardize our 447 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 3: business because we're sharing some of our vulnerabilities. And yet, 448 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 3: as Brene Brown has said for one thousand years, you 449 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 3: know it's around being vulnerable that builds connection and that 450 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 3: hopefully drives business and performance, including new business, because you've 451 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 3: walked in the shoes you've experienced. So if I'm a 452 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 3: corporate client coming to you, I know that you're not 453 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,959 Speaker 3: working with me from a place of holier than now. 454 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 3: I have all the answers. You know what it's like 455 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 3: to lead a team, you know what it's like to 456 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 3: manage budgets. You know what it's like to work in 457 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 3: tough times, you know what it's like to have psychologically 458 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 3: unsafe moments or periods as a team, and you know 459 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 3: how to get it back on track. What better offering 460 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 3: is there in the line of work that you're in. 461 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I mean, like for me being on the 462 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 2: other side of the microphone when I'm used to playing 463 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 2: the role that you have played today and talking about 464 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 2: this kind of stuff like, it's not like super fun 465 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 2: and light like, it's hard stuff. It's hard stuff to share, 466 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 2: it's hard stuff to reflect on. And so for me, 467 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 2: what I hope is that firstly that people listening that 468 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 2: have gone through similar things that I've described today go wow, 469 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: I'm not alone, And hopefully there's a little bit of 470 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 2: gold in there to either help people get through and 471 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 2: see the light or maybe something that they now think 472 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 2: maybe I could do that differently. 473 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 3: I think I'd be surprised if that's not the case. 474 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 3: It's a joy to be in each other's lives this 475 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 3: kind of conversation. It's not joyous, as you say, but 476 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 3: it's real and it's the experience of so many in 477 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 3: their working lives. So I think it matters, and you 478 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 3: know thanks for being so open on behalf of your listeners. 479 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 3: I know that you and I are open outside of here, 480 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 3: but to do this publicly as a business owner, I 481 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 3: think is big and a credit to you, and it's 482 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 3: pretty inspiring and two thumbs up from me. 483 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to this special two 484 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 1: part episode. I hope it gave you some new insights 485 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: or at the very least, helped you feel a little 486 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: less alone in the messy parts of leadership. If you 487 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: want to hear more about what burnout looked like for 488 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: me behind the scenes and the tools that helped me 489 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: crawl out of it, you will love a conversation I 490 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: had with Sabina a few months ago. It's a deep 491 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: dive into the personal side of burnout and how I 492 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: slowly found my way through. There's a link to that 493 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: in the show notes. Oh and if this episode resonated, 494 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: I'd love it if you shared it with someone who 495 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: might need to hear it. See you next time on 496 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: How I Work. 497 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 3: If you like. 498 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 2: Today's show, make sure you get follow on your podcast 499 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 2: app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How I 500 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 2: Work was recorded on the Traditional Land of the Warrenery people, 501 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 2: part of the Kulin Nation.