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Speaker 1: Good morning. Shortly after this podcast went out this morning,

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Speaker 1: we got news that President Joe Biden had announced he

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Speaker 1: would no longer be contesting the twenty twenty four presidential election.

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Speaker 1: He has officially now dropped out of the race and

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Speaker 1: has endorsed his vice President Kamala Harris to replace him

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Speaker 1: in November's election. We will, of course do a deep

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Speaker 1: dive tomorrow morning about what this means for the US

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Speaker 1: and of course what it means for the election later

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Speaker 1: this year, but we wanted to just give you the

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Speaker 1: heads up before you listen to this episode that that

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Speaker 1: is what happened shortly after going live this morning. Have

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Speaker 1: a great day and we'll explain everything you need to

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Speaker 1: know tomorrow already.

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Speaker 2: And this is the Daily This is the Daily ODS.

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Speaker 2: Oh now it makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday,

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Speaker 1: the twenty second of July. I'm Zara, I'm Chloe.

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Speaker 2: Now there's a new kid on the nicotine block pouches

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Speaker 2: discreete flavored nicotine hits skyrocketing in popularity, particularly among young people.

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Speaker 2: Sound familiar. If you haven't heard of Zin or Snorch

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Speaker 2: just yet, you probably soon will. In today's Deep dive.

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Speaker 2: We're going to explain why one of the biggest tobacco

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Speaker 2: companies in the world has spent close to a billion

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Speaker 2: dollars building a factory just for these nicotine pouches. But

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Speaker 2: verse Sara, what's making headlines.

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Speaker 1: Cybersecurity Minister Claire O'Neil has said it could take one

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Speaker 1: to two weeks for all affected sectors to get back

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Speaker 1: online after Friday's global IT outage. O'Neil confirmed on Saturday

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Speaker 1: the global outage was due to an error in an

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Speaker 1: update by CrowdStrike, which is a company that provides cybersecurity

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Speaker 1: software for most major economies around the world. In a statement,

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Speaker 1: CrowdStrike said and I quote the issue has been identified

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Speaker 1: and isolated and a fix has been deployed. This was

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Speaker 1: not a cyber attack.

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Speaker 2: Nearly five hundred children and teens a wedding to be

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Speaker 2: treated at Queensland's only pediatric Agenda Health clinic. This is

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Speaker 2: according to a review which recommended its services be expanded statewide.

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Speaker 2: The clinic was subject to a review following concerns that

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Speaker 2: some children are being prescribed hormone treatments like puberty blockers,

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Speaker 2: which are reversible too quickly and without enough consultation. The

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Speaker 2: review found this was not the case.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump has told a Michigan rally that he quote

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Speaker 1: took a bullet for democracy. It was the first rally

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Speaker 1: he had attended since the attempted assassination earlier this month,

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Speaker 1: and he was joined on stage by his running mate

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Speaker 1: Jade Vance. In a speech, he said, and I quote

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Speaker 1: the Democrats keep saying he's a threat to democracy. I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: what the hell did I do for democracy? Last week?

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Speaker 1: I took a bullet for democracy.

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Speaker 2: And today's good news. A new cure for poisonous cobrabytes

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Speaker 2: has been developed by an inter national team of researchers

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Speaker 2: led by professors from the University of Sydney. The drug

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Speaker 2: would pave the way for snake bite treatments across the world.

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Speaker 2: Researchers used gene editing technology to develop a drug that

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Speaker 2: resists venom from a cobra byte.

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Speaker 1: Philip Morris International is one of the world's biggest tobacco manufacturers.

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Speaker 1: Last week, the company announced plans to build a multi

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Speaker 1: million dollar facility in the US state of Colorado, and

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Speaker 1: very significantly, they have decided to dedicate that entirely to

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Speaker 1: the production of nicotine pouches. The company said its planned

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Speaker 1: facility will help to meet the growing global demand for

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Speaker 1: smoke free nicotine products. Now, when I saw this story

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Speaker 1: in the news, I knew that the only person that

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Speaker 1: I could bring onto this pod to explain it was

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Speaker 1: our journalist, Chloe Christy. Chloe, Welcome to the pod.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, Zara. You make it sound like Membitifer snuss fiend.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, isolutely not. I did set that up unfairly. But

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Speaker 1: the reason that I wanted to talk to you, not

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Speaker 1: just as the resident young person in the building, is

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Speaker 1: because you've done a number of stories on this and

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Speaker 1: you have spent quite a bit of time researching it.

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Speaker 1: And here on this pod we have spoken about vaping

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Speaker 1: quite a bit. You told me that that's pass, that

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Speaker 1: that's old, that now the new thing on the block

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Speaker 1: is these nicotine products, these pouches. Tell me about it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think a lot of the conversations I

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Speaker 2: heard you and Sam have last year was about vaping,

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Speaker 2: and particularly with how the government responded to it, with

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Speaker 2: bringing forward all of these new vaping reforms, and they're

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Speaker 2: really cracked down on vapes. But in the background, there's

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Speaker 2: been this new nicotine product that sort of has gone

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Speaker 2: a bit unnoticed, and I think that we should pay

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Speaker 2: a little bit more attention to it. We're talking here

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Speaker 2: about nicotine pouches. So you might have seen little containers

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Speaker 2: of zin or snuus is what it's sometimes called, floating

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Speaker 2: around in maybe your friend groups. But it's okay if

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Speaker 2: you haven't seen that, because it's still so new.

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Speaker 1: And for anyone who hasn't necessarily seen it or heard

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Speaker 1: about it, can you just explain what exactly we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here? What is this nicotine pouch?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, nicotine pouches are these tiny, little white pouches, as

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Speaker 2: the name would suggest. They often come in a wheel

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Speaker 2: of a container. Their place between a uses upper lip

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Speaker 2: and gum, which allows for the nicotine to be absorbed

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Speaker 2: through the lining of the mouth and into the bloodstream,

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Speaker 2: and it gives you a head rush essentially.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So when we first started talking about this in

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Speaker 1: the office and you were telling me that you were

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Speaker 1: observing this out socially or that people you know were

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Speaker 1: doing it around you, I found it so interesting because

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Speaker 1: when I went on exchange, there were quite a few

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Speaker 1: Scandinavians who were at the college that I was at

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Speaker 1: in the US, and I was struck that all of

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Speaker 1: them had this little pouch under their upper lip. But

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Speaker 1: I had never heard about it in Australia and when

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Speaker 1: you brought it up, I was like, wow, I have

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Speaker 1: not thought about that in years. Is it a new

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Speaker 1: thing here? I know it's not a new thing around

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Speaker 1: the world, but is it a new here?

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Speaker 2: No, you're right. Nicotine pouches are fairly new here in Australia,

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Speaker 2: but they are absolutely not in Europe, particularly in those

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Speaker 2: Scandinavian countries. They've been using snor swiches, a particular type

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Speaker 2: of poteene pouch that contains tobacco. They've been using that

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Speaker 2: for hundreds of years.

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Speaker 1: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: What's important to note here is that snuss is illegal

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Speaker 2: in Australia because it's an oral tobacco product.

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Speaker 1: That is very important to note is that the same

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Speaker 1: all around the world.

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Speaker 2: Well, the EU also banned the sale of snuss in

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Speaker 2: the nineties. However, Sweden is exempt from that. And if

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Speaker 2: we're talking about Sweden, nearly fifteen percent of young people

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Speaker 2: use snuss daily.

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Speaker 1: Incredible, that is such a high percent of daily uses.

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Speaker 2: Daily SNUS uses and that's according to the Swedish Public

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Speaker 2: Health Agency. Snus is used here as an alternative to cigarettes, okay,

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Speaker 2: and its popularity is widely understood to be what has

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Speaker 2: driven down Sweden's smoking.

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Speaker 1: Rates very interesting. Do we have stats on that?

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Speaker 2: So between two thousand and six and twenty twenties, Sweden's

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Speaker 2: smoking rates dropped by sixty percent, And so what that

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Speaker 2: means is now Sweden is very much on track to

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Speaker 2: be the first country in the world to be entirely

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Speaker 2: smoke free.

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Speaker 1: So Sweden is clearly this very interesting test case. But

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Speaker 1: it's been around for years and years and years. Why

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Speaker 1: is it suddenly so popular in the rest of the world,

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Speaker 1: you know, why are we talking about it here in Australia.

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Speaker 2: I think if there's any brand of nicotine pouch that

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Speaker 2: maybe some of our listeners would be familiar with, it's

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Speaker 2: one called Zin. Now. Zin is pretty new. Unlike snors,

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Speaker 2: Zin is actually tobacco free.

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Speaker 1: So does that mean then that it's legal here in

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Speaker 1: Australia to use No.

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Speaker 2: No brand of tobacco free nicotine pouches have been approved

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Speaker 2: by the Therapeutic Goods Administration the TGA. What's important to

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Speaker 2: understand about Zin though, is who owns it. Zin's original

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Speaker 2: parent company called Swedish Match was bought by Philip Morris

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Speaker 2: International in twenty twenty two for sixteen billion US dollars.

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Speaker 1: I feel like Philip Morris is definitely the name of

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Speaker 1: a company that people would perhaps know, but might not

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Speaker 1: know too much about it. What can you tell us

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Speaker 1: about Philip Morrison? Why them owning zin is so important?

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Speaker 2: You might have heard about Philip Morris International. They are

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Speaker 2: a tobacco giant. According to the Cancer Council, twenty seven

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Speaker 2: point four percent of cigarettes consumed around the world in

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Speaker 2: twenty eighteen with Philip Morris owned products, and so that

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Speaker 2: includes Marlborough and Ellen m they're among the most popular ones.

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Speaker 2: Now we know that with greater health awareness, the cigarette

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Speaker 2: market is certainly fading. Obviously, if you're a company that

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Speaker 2: makes cigarettes and has made a lot of money out

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Speaker 2: of making cigarettes, what do you do? You then enter

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Speaker 2: markets like vapes and like nicotine pouches, which they say

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Speaker 2: are better alternatives.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's just so fascinating and something that we

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Speaker 1: explored in the episodes we did around vaping, which is

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Speaker 1: that big tobacco is almost having to modernize and keep

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Speaker 1: up with the times when public health messaging has clearly worked,

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Speaker 1: and people and especially young people are not taking up smoking,

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Speaker 1: you know, at all in the numbers that they used to.

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Speaker 1: How then, are these companies reaching their target markets for

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Speaker 1: lack of a better term, how is it going for them? Like,

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Speaker 1: is Philip Morris International doing well out of this?

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Speaker 2: I mean, according to their revenue, they're doing pretty well.

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Speaker 2: Philip Morris took over Zin, sales of the product have

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Speaker 2: increased by eighty percent. In twenty twenty three, Philip Morris

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Speaker 2: reported a net revenue of around thirty five billion US dollars.

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Speaker 2: They are doing just fine. In particular, it's smoke free

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Speaker 2: part of the business, which includes Zin, accounted for thirty

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Speaker 2: nine percent of that figure.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting to understand that context to

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Speaker 1: what people are now becoming addicted to and where they

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Speaker 1: are going for these sorts of things. Why are we

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Speaker 1: talking about it on today's pod though?

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Speaker 2: So this week Philip Morris announced that a brand new

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Speaker 2: nicotine pouch facility is going to be built in the

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Speaker 2: state of Colorado. The company is going to spend six

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Speaker 2: hundred million US dollars, so that's about eight hundred and

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Speaker 2: ninety five million Australian dollars and they're going to begin

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Speaker 2: manufacturing zin in twenty twenty six. The US CEO of

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Speaker 2: the company, Stacy Kennedy, said that the factory will speed

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Speaker 2: up Philip Morris's goals to move smokers away from cigarettes

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Speaker 2: and meet the increasing demand for alternative nicotine options.

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Speaker 1: We've got a CEO directly suggesting that these nicotine pouches

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Speaker 1: are steering people away from cigarettes, which is the other

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Speaker 1: product that the company is manufacturing. Are they suggesting here

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Speaker 1: that it is safer to use these nicotine pouches than

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Speaker 1: it is to smoke a cigarette.

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Speaker 2: The product is certainly marketed as that as a safer

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Speaker 2: alternative to cigarettes, and so what we know broadly is

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Speaker 2: that smoking cigarettes is probably one of the worst things

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Speaker 2: that you can do.

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Speaker 1: For your health.

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Speaker 2: There are very few things that come close. And to

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Speaker 2: put that in perspective, in twenty twenty, Swiss parliamentary officials

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Speaker 2: reported that SNUSS poses a health risk at least ninety

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Speaker 2: percent lower than cigarettes.

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Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting though, right like, whenever we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the safety of something, it's immediately compared to cigarettes,

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Speaker 1: the worst of the worst, exactly. But taking away that

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Speaker 1: comparison on its own, how does it stack up like

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Speaker 1: it presumably still isn't a safe thing to do.

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Speaker 2: Well, I thought the same thing, like, should we be

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Speaker 2: moving away from cigarettes as the benchmar for health or

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Speaker 2: whether something is dangerous or not. So I spoke to

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Speaker 2: an expert. I reached out to doctor Becky Freeman. She's

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Speaker 2: from the University of Sydney. She found this conversation really frustrating.

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Speaker 2: This idea that nicotine pouches are safer than cigarettes because

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Speaker 2: they are perhaps the lesser of two evils. And so

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Speaker 2: in the context of someone being a daily cigarette user,

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Speaker 2: someone who smokes a packadet, if you're going to then

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Speaker 2: jump to snous or nicotine pouches is something that's going

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Speaker 2: to get you off cigarettes, then of course nicotine pouches

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Speaker 2: are going to be far less harmful for your health.

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Speaker 1: What if you're not a daily smoker, you know, like

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Speaker 1: that is obviously one subset of people who would be

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Speaker 1: using this, but there are others who are just using

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Speaker 1: it recreationally and aren't necessarily even cigarette smokers to begin with.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly what she said, that those people are

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Speaker 2: not reflective of the large majority of people who use zin.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Freeman also warned that despite marketing claims from companies

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Speaker 2: like Philip Morris. Nicotine pouches are often used in addition

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Speaker 2: to cigarettes, rather than as an alternative.

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Speaker 1: Fear. I know what the answer to this question is

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Speaker 1: going to be because it strikes me as like very

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Speaker 1: similar to the conversation we have around vaping, that so

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Speaker 1: little is known. Do we have any evidence, do we

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Speaker 1: have any science? What do we actually know about the

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Speaker 1: health risks of these pouches?

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Speaker 2: We don't know a whole lot. There is just not

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Speaker 2: the data to support that. What we do know is

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Speaker 2: what we've seen in Sweden. If you take a lot

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Speaker 2: of nicotine pouches, you're going to be dependent on it,

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Speaker 2: and that's why the uptake has been so widespread.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so, I mean we don't have that data around

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Speaker 1: you know what it's specifically doing to your gums. That's

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Speaker 1: something that really fascinates me about this because it's in

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Speaker 1: your gums. But we know then that it has these

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Speaker 1: really addictive properties.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's a highly addictive product, which brings me

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Speaker 2: to what we do know about nicotine though, because we

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Speaker 2: know a lot about that, We've seen it through cigarettes

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Speaker 2: and then we've seen it with vapes. It's just a

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Speaker 2: rinse and repeat of the same product in a different packaging.

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Speaker 2: As well as being an addictive substance, nicotine has been

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Speaker 2: known to deteriorate gum tissue, and it causes mouth and

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Speaker 2: gum disease as well as tooth decay.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I wonder and presumably this will come

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Speaker 1: in the years to come, But when it is directly

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Speaker 1: on your gum versus being smoked or vaped, it feels

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Speaker 1: like that would have a heightened impact. But I guess

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Speaker 1: we'll have to wait and see what the evidence says

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Speaker 1: around that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, probably we don't really know. We know the

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Speaker 2: issues that come from someone's respiratory system when they're vaping

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Speaker 2: and when they're smoking, but what do we know about

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Speaker 2: snorsping on someone's mouth. Doctor Freeman said that young people

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Speaker 2: with nicotine dependency face social, academic, and cognitive disadvantages, and

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Speaker 2: so that's kind of what you were talking about before, saying,

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Speaker 2: if it's not a physical problem, what are the other

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Speaker 2: factors that we're not focusing on as well? They have

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Speaker 2: an elevated risk of mental ill health, which she said

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Speaker 2: is just the greatest burden on young people's health.

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Speaker 1: While you've been talking to me about this. The thing

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Speaker 1: that keeps coming up in my mind is like these

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Speaker 1: tobacco companies are just reinventing themselves over and over and

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Speaker 1: over again and coming up with new ways to continue.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're commercial businesses, understand, but it is just

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Speaker 1: so interesting that it's like a lick of paint and

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Speaker 1: somehow it's something different. But really we're just seeing this

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Speaker 1: like modernizing of the original cigarette.

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Speaker 2: It's wild and there's a lot of money, remember to

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Speaker 2: be made out of having an addictive product. But it's

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Speaker 2: just interesting that as much as we move away from cigarettes,

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Speaker 2: are we truly that much more informed If we're buying

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Speaker 2: vapes and we're buying nicotine pouches, it's just the same thing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the federal government here has clearly recognized that,

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Speaker 1: you know, some could say perhaps a little bit late,

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Speaker 1: but there is this recognition that vaping needed to be

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Speaker 1: cracked down on in Australia because while all of you know,

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Speaker 1: the public health messaging had been focused on cigarettes, this

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Speaker 1: thing had just grown in the background. And from what

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Speaker 1: you're saying, it sounds like, now, you know, cigarettes under control,

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Speaker 1: vaping they're focused on, but a nicotine pouch is the

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Speaker 1: next big thing.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's definitely something we have to be proactive about.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to round out this conversation with a quote

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Speaker 2: from doctor Becky that I found really summarize everything we're

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Speaker 2: talking about. She said, the lessons that we can learn

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Speaker 2: from what happened with vaping are really important here. We

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Speaker 2: didn't think vaping was going to be a big problem

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Speaker 2: in Australia until they were disposable and discreet, full of flavors,

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Speaker 2: and had social media messaging attached to them. I see

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Speaker 2: the exact same thing happening here with pouches.

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Speaker 1: It's really really interesting and for any listeners, I'd love

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Speaker 1: to know what you have seen and heard around you know,

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Speaker 1: have you been seeing these nicotine pouches out of nowhere?

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Speaker 1: We would love to know, you know. Is this the

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Speaker 1: next big investigation that the dally Ods does. We'll have

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Speaker 1: to wait and see. Thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: the dally Os today. If you learned something from this episode,

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Speaker 1: please hit subscribe whether you're on Spotify, Apple, or if

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Speaker 1: you're watching us on YouTube. We'll be back again tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: but until then, have a fabulous Monday. My name is

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Speaker 1: Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung Caalcuttin woman

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Speaker 1: from Gadigl country.

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Speaker 2: The Daily os acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 2: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

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Speaker 2: all Aboriginal and torrestrate island and nations.

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Speaker 1: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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Speaker 1: both past and present.