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Speaker 1: Today's episode is another my favorite Tip episode where I

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Speaker 1: go back to interviews from the past and I dig

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Speaker 1: out the thing that was my favorite tip, like the

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Speaker 1: thing that I got out of the interview that really

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Speaker 1: impacted or resonated with me. Today's extract is from my

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Speaker 1: chat with Scott Anthony. So this is my second time

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Speaker 1: having Scott on the show. I loved my first chat

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Speaker 1: with him so much that I was keen to have

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Speaker 1: him back again during COVID to check in and see

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Speaker 1: how the way he approaches his work has changed. So

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Speaker 1: if you haven't come across Scott, Scott is a global

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Speaker 1: authority on innovation and also the former managing partner of Inosite,

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Speaker 1: the innovation and strategy consulting firm co founded by Clayton Christiansen.

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Speaker 1: Scott has written several best selling books and writes regularly

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Speaker 1: for Harvard Business Room. Scott has also been awarded the

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Speaker 1: Thinker's fifty Innovation Award, which recognizes the world's leading thinkers

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Speaker 1: on innovation. So in this extract, with my second chat

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Speaker 1: with Scott, we talk about the new rituals that he

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Speaker 1: has developed for doing deep and also shallow work, which

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Speaker 1: I found fascinating. So on that note, let's head on

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Speaker 1: over to Scott. I want to dig into deep and

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Speaker 1: shallow work. You mentioned that as part of your routine,

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Speaker 1: and I remember when we spoke last a lot of

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Speaker 1: your deep work rituals took place when you're on a

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Speaker 1: plane and therefore disconnected from all things digitally distracting, and

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Speaker 1: also in cafes and seat of other such places. So

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Speaker 1: how does your deep work ritual work now? And I

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Speaker 1: guess how are you tricking is not quite the right word,

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Speaker 1: but it is kind of tricking your brain into going, okay,

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Speaker 1: this is deep work time. Because I found for myself

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Speaker 1: I completely had to change my habits and triggers around that,

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Speaker 1: because I too would do a lot of my deep

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Speaker 1: work in cafes and on planes, which is now no

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Speaker 1: longer an option at all in Melbourne where I'm based.

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Speaker 2: No, absolutely, And you know, so the planes have certainly

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Speaker 2: been out for me. The cafes are conceivable but challenging,

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Speaker 2: you know, because you're then either very with Singapore regulation,

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Speaker 2: you're either very slowly nursing a drink, or you're sitting

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Speaker 2: around with a mask on, which just makes you conscious

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Speaker 2: and it's just a little bit harder for your brain

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Speaker 2: to unwind and focus, I've found. So for me, it

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Speaker 2: really has been three things. Number one has been being

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Speaker 2: even more ruthless about scheduling the time, making sure that

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Speaker 2: I use some of the things Amantha that you've taught

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Speaker 2: me about making sure that you put formal time on

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Speaker 2: the calendar for things, and then making sure that that

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Speaker 2: is time that you hold sacricent. So that's number one.

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Speaker 2: Number two, to trick my brain, I do change space,

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Speaker 2: just I do it within the place in which we live.

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Speaker 2: You know, I again am fortunate that there's enough different

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Speaker 2: places that I can work. You know, we've got a

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Speaker 2: nice porch that if the weather is good, can be

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Speaker 2: a good place to get stuff done. And the kids

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Speaker 2: are in school. Schools are open here, so there are

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Speaker 2: good quiet periods of time where I can actually do

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Speaker 2: that where sometimes you know, it's at weird hours. You know,

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Speaker 2: it could be quite late at night where you get

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Speaker 2: that moment where you've got ninety minutes just to crank

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Speaker 2: through things in between calls. So it's making sure it's

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Speaker 2: not all done within the home office where I sit

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Speaker 2: most of the time, but it's in different spaces in

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Speaker 2: the house. And number three, I've used music a lot

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Speaker 2: as the way just to get my brain into flow.

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Speaker 2: You know. There's just certain mixes that I have or

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Speaker 2: playlists on Spotify that just tell my brain this is

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Speaker 2: when you're going to actually engage in a task. And

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Speaker 2: I found for me, at least, I get much more

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Speaker 2: in flow when I have background music. And I'm very

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Speaker 2: thankful for the AirPod pros from Apple. They're just to me,

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Speaker 2: just phenomenal noise blockers. So you really can just immerse

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Speaker 2: yourself and sound and just disappear in what you're working on.

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Speaker 2: So those are the things that I've done.

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Speaker 1: That's great. What are your go to playlists then? For

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Speaker 1: your deep work?

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's a mix of different things, you know, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes it's just following threads, you know. So I like

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Speaker 2: music a lot. They are all things that I've created.

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Speaker 2: If I'm trying to do deep work, this is not

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Speaker 2: one I listen to my favorite band, which is a

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Speaker 2: Pearl Jam is good for other things, but it is

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Speaker 2: not good for deep work. But usually I will have

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Speaker 2: some album that I've purchased recently, Like recently I purchased

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Speaker 2: a new album from Phoebe Bridgers and Bright Eyes, and

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Speaker 2: there's just a tonality in both of those albums that

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Speaker 2: it's just good for me when I'm working, and then

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Speaker 2: I'll go from those albums and sometimes go to Spotify

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Speaker 2: Radio off the songs actually do my albums by the way,

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Speaker 2: I just, you know, I feel like in the creative space,

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Speaker 2: I write things and I hope people buy some of

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Speaker 2: the things that I do. So I always feel like

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Speaker 2: for artists, if I am listening to the music, I

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Speaker 2: owe it to them to buy the albums as well,

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Speaker 2: you know. So I buy a couple dozen albums a year,

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Speaker 2: and it just changed depending on mood. But it tends

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Speaker 2: to be things that are a little bit discordant sonically,

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Speaker 2: but not things that are too loud, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: So something where I can kind of feel the noise

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Speaker 2: but it's not disruptive to my brain. I've actually never

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Speaker 2: thought about that before, but that's at least the way

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Speaker 2: that I think about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very interesting. I remember, like a couple of

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Speaker 1: years back now, I had Matt Mullenwig on the show,

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Speaker 1: the co founder of Automatic, and he had a strategy

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Speaker 1: where he would to get into flow, he would listen

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Speaker 1: to the same song on repeat. Do you ever do that?

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Speaker 1: Or is it always circling like straight through the album.

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Speaker 2: I never listened to the same song and repeat, and generally,

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Speaker 2: if I'm trying to lose myself, it is some collection

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Speaker 2: on random, because if I listen to something in order,

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Speaker 2: like if I listened to the Phoebe Bridgers album in order,

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Speaker 2: my brain is starting to track into and it knows

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Speaker 2: what's coming, and I get kind of pulled too much

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Speaker 2: into the music on random. For whatever reason, brain kind

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Speaker 2: of loses it. You know, you hear it, you hear it,

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Speaker 2: but it's not something that you're tracking and figuring out.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't really make sense because you would think if

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Speaker 2: you're listening to something where you know what's coming next,

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Speaker 2: it's a way to not have to process things, and

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Speaker 2: when you get surprised by a song then you have

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Speaker 2: to stop and think about it for a second. But

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Speaker 2: at least for me, it just helps me disappear.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting listening to you talk about it almost

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Speaker 1: makes me want to experiment with music again. I've tried

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Speaker 1: different strategies around music and working rituals, and I did

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Speaker 1: try the same song on repeat. I remember when I

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Speaker 1: was going through a massive Hamilton stage quite a while ago.

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Speaker 1: Now I would have a particular song on repeat from Hamilton,

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Speaker 1: which found I found quite good because you just sort

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Speaker 1: of get into the zone and it does become background

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Speaker 1: music quite quickly when it is the same song. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's almost caterintuitive what you're saying about the random music.

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Speaker 1: But I'm feeling all inspired to try music again when

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Speaker 1: I work.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: I want to look at Kelly work because you said

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Speaker 1: something interesting where some mornings you'll feel the need to

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Speaker 1: feed your brain with shallow work. And for me, that

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Speaker 1: just kind of struck something in me because in my

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Speaker 1: own possibly quite rigid rule book, it's like, hang on

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Speaker 1: shallow work in the morning. The only time I would

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Speaker 1: do that is if I've got a keynote in the

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Speaker 1: morning and I know I can't get into flow before

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Speaker 1: the keynote because I'll just be disrupted. So tell me

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Speaker 1: about how you know when you're going to do shallow

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Speaker 1: work in the morning. And I'm just curious to understand

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Speaker 1: more about that.

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Speaker 2: And you know, some of this is just again just

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Speaker 2: given the reality of the way that twenty twenty has worked.

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Speaker 2: You know, my chronotype, according to the test that I

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Speaker 2: took about reinventing your workday is a middle bird, so

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Speaker 2: I am neither a lark nor a night owl. But

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Speaker 2: the thing I find for me is where I am

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Speaker 2: at my best really is circumstance contingent. So there are

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Speaker 2: some days where I've not worked that late. I've woken

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Speaker 2: up after a good sleep and I can hop out

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Speaker 2: of bed and I could go and write a check

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Speaker 2: after the book. And there are other days where it's

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Speaker 2: been more fragmented. It's been later, I've had a choppy

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Speaker 2: morning where there's just no way I could do it.

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Speaker 2: I just I'm not going to be really deep functional

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Speaker 2: until later in the afternoon or early in the evening,

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Speaker 2: and I have a reasonably good sense of myself to

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Speaker 2: just have a feeling as to what type of day

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Speaker 2: it is. And if it's a day like that, then

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Speaker 2: I'll flip around and say, Okay, this is a great

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Speaker 2: day to do stupid stuff and just answer the emails

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Speaker 2: that need to get answered. And I know I'm beating

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Speaker 2: the whatever skinner like dopamine hit when I do it,

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Speaker 2: and i know I'm not really making progress with anything material,

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Speaker 2: but it's just a way to kind of warm up.

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Speaker 2: And there are other days where that is the exact

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Speaker 2: last thing that I will do where I will say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I really do have it in my brain to do it,

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Speaker 2: and I need that focus first thing in the morning,

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Speaker 2: and I won't even look at email. So to me,

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Speaker 2: it's very circumstanced contingent. And I do have something that

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Speaker 2: I adopted as a ritual a couple of years ago

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Speaker 2: that is held, which is, I do not look at

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Speaker 2: email first thing in the morning under any circumstance. So

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Speaker 2: I wake up, I do other things, and I might

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Speaker 2: look at WhatsApp to see who's texted me, and I'll

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Speaker 2: read some sports news, and I'll look at other things.

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Speaker 2: That it is only until I've had my first sip

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Speaker 2: of coffee that I will allow myself to look at email.

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Speaker 2: And some days it's not even that. If I really

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Speaker 2: have a deep work task, I won't even peek because

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Speaker 2: you know you know this. I mean, you tell other

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Speaker 2: people this, you tell yourself, Oh, I can just look

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Speaker 2: and not engage. But your brain just starts worrying once

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Speaker 2: you see these emails, and you're like, oh, here's all

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Speaker 2: this stupid stuff that I need to do. Not that

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Speaker 2: my colleagues asked me to do stupid stuff, but you know,

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Speaker 2: you know the point.

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Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you want to

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Speaker 1: listen to the full episode, I link to that in

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Speaker 1: the show notes, so you might want to check that out.

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Speaker 1: And if you are enjoying how I work, I would

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Speaker 1: be so deeply grateful if you just take five seconds

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Speaker 1: out of your date to leave a review in Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: It might be a star rating or a few words,

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Speaker 1: and by doing so, it helps other people find the

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Speaker 1: show and it also brings a huge smile to my face.

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Speaker 1: So thank you to the hundreds of people that have

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Speaker 1: left reviews. It is so deeply appreciated. So that is

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Speaker 1: it for today's show and I will see you next time.