WEBVTT - A shakeup for Aussie unis 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:03.560 My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:08.560 Bunjelung Cargotten woman from Gadighal Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:10.799 that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:14.360 Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.319 Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:20.120 first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:23.040 Just a warning on this episode, we will be talking 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.160 about sexual violence. If you or someone you know needs help, 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.120 you can call one eight hundred respect. 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:32.000 Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Monday, 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:33.040 the twenty fourth of July. 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.000 I'm Tom Crowley, I an Nicople and we're standing in 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:36.800 for Sam and Zara. 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.760 Just for today, the government is scrapping the Rule Nina 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.040 which says failing a university subject makes you ineligible for 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:45.360 a hex loan. It's just one announcement off the back 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.559 of a new report commissioned by the government looking at 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.760 how to improve higher education in Australia. There's set to 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:53.320 be a major shakeup to Australia's university sector. 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.080 Reporter says universities need to rethink how they treat their students. 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:02.560 To improve retention rates and outcomes rich, poor, City, Bush, 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.240 black and white. We need to set up a system 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:07.600 that's sustainable for the long term that helps all young 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.360 people get a crack at university. 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:11.240 We'll let you know what the report found and what 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:13.759 changes we can expect in the deep dive, But first, 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:15.639 what's making headlines this morning. 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:18.640 Major fires on the Greek island of Rhodes have led 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:22.680 to thousands being evacuated, with temperatures across the country hitting 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.280 forty five degree celsius. A number of European neighbors have 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.080 sent firefighting resources to the area. Meanwhile, a number of 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:33.280 key tourist sites in the country remains shut during the 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:34.520 hottest times of the day. 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:38.360 Big W says it will be stopping an in store 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.200 announcement affirming its support for the Indigenous Voice to Parliament, 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.920 which will be voted on in a referendum later this year. 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.400 Big W was playing a message as part of an 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.280 acknowledgment of country across its stores, but it will be 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.440 now taking that message down based on customer and store 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:54.320 team feedback. 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.760 The Good Vibes Festival in Malaysia has been canceled after 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.600 the lead singer of India banned the nineteen seventy five. 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:06.600 Matt Healey attacked the country's leadership over the anti LGBT laws. 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.520 Heally said, I do not see the point of inviting 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:12.320 the nineteen seventy five to a country and then telling 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.960 us who we can have sex with before kissing beast 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:19.240 player Ross McDonald. Homosexuality is a crime in Malaysia and 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:21.560 can attract a twenty year prison sentence. 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.320 And the good news, a possible solution for disposing nuclear 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:29.680 waste has been discovered by researchers at the University of Houston. 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:34.400 Molecular crystals capable of capturing radioactive pollutants could be used 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:41.120 for waste management and other sustainability related applications. All right, 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:45.160 So Nina, we're talking about universities today because the government 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:50.120 has released a fairly wide ranging review on the university sector. 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.040 So it gives us a chance to spend a little 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:53.320 bit of time talking about it. 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:54.760 A long awaited review as well. 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.200 It was a while coming, and I think, you know, 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.200 sometimes when we get these big reviews, they can be 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.040 a little bit doom and gloom, and there are some 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:03.919 negatives to come to later on. But I think we 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:08.800 should start with universities really as a great Australian success story. 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.840 We're coming off decades in Australia where attendance rates at 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:16.359 universities have increased. The university industry, if you like, is 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:19.160 a massive export. We have so many international students who 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.600 come to Australia. Australian universities punch above our weight on 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.119 the global scale, and university attendance here at home has 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:28.840 made a huge difference to the lives of many people. 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.640 But just like any sector, there are issues and this 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:35.960 government report focused on some of those issues. It asked, 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:40.080 I guess three key questions that we might focus on today. 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:44.560 The first of those is how well are universities doing 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.720 and offering opportunities to as broad across section of people 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:52.720 as possible, and in particular to giving educational opportunities to 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:57.040 people from disadvantage backgrounds. Then once they get there, are 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.960 they getting a good experience? Are they safe and happy? 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:02.800 And do they have the supports that they need? And 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.320 then finally, is the way that we're funding universities and 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.400 the way that we're asking students to contribute to them 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.800 is that working. Are there ways that that can be improved? 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:13.720 So I think they're the kind of three questions and 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.320 maybe that I mean that last one Nina about the funding, 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:18.360 might be a good place to start, because that's where 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:19.279 the big headline was. 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.160 The headline that TDA ran with was that the government 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.520 is scrapping a rule which says university students who fail 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:29.000 more than fifty percent of their subjects currently aren't eligible 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.040 for hecks. So what did the reports say. 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:33.480 Well, that rule is on the way out, it seems so. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:35.640 It hasn't been around for very long. That rule. It 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:37.920 was introduced by the Morrison government in twenty twenty and 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:41.599 it only came into effect last year. And the idea 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.280 was that if students fail more than half their subjects, 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:47.839 they can't get student loan assistance. So basically they can't 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.920 get a hex loan and they have to pay upfront. Now, 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:55.880 what this report found was that that disproportionately disadvantages people 0:04:55.920 --> 0:05:01.000 who are from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and from regional I guess, 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:04.599 people for whom there are already barriers to university, and 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.560 particularly in the low sees case, people who are already 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:10.479 worried about the cost of going to university having this 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.840 additional threat over your head that if you fail you're 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.280 going to have to pay more. It seemed to be 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:17.520 a barrier. 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.320 At Western Sydney University this year. It has already led 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.039 to one thousand, three hundred and fifty students being forced 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.960 to quit, most of them from poorer backgrounds. More than 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.920 thirteen thousand students at twenty seven universities have already been 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.479 hit by this. Instead of forcing them to quit, we 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:36.880 should be helping them to pass. 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:41.080 That's the Minister for Education, Jason Claire, and the report 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.240 recommended acting that rule, Jason Claire suggesting the government will 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:44.840 follow through. 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.760 So that was the headline that we ran with at TDA. 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:49.760 What other points were made in this report? 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:51.880 So they're already really a couple. It was a long 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.560 report that had some really interesting thoughts which we'll get 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.640 to about the broader state of the sector and the system. 0:05:57.680 --> 0:05:59.720 And it is an interim report, right, you still need 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.599 to reap for a final report and recommendations on the 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:03.159 way forward. 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:05.960 Yeah, so this I think the Minister is conceiving of. 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:07.919 This is the beginning of a process. You can call 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.040 it a road map, you can call it a I 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:12.080 think they call it an accord. You know, you use 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:15.040 whatever buzzword you like this is the beginning of a conversation. 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.480 But the specific items on the list there were very 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:19.719 few of them, and they were mostly about this question 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.480 of how do you get people from disadvantage backgrounds into UNI. 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.480 So as well as this fifty percent pass rule, there 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.560 was a suggestion to create more regional university hubs, and 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.280 the idea there was really all about I guess, visibility 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.440 and accessibility across the country rather than just one campus 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:39.159 in a major city, you know, bringing university education to 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.919 people where they live, to combat regional barriers in particular. 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:45.960 Then there were also suggestions about how to get more 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:51.000 First Nation students into university and specifically to guarantee a 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.560 fully funded place for all First Nation students who are 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.240 eligible for their desired course. So that's something that's currently 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.880 in place of First Nation students from regional, rural and 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.560 remote areas. This would broaden it to all First Nation 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:08.280 students and that was in recognition of the fact that 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:12.360 although First Nations participation at universities has increased over the 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:16.840 last decade or more, they still remain underrepresented relative to 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.360 their share of the Australian population in the university population. 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:22.680 So those were kind of the key action points for 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:24.640 the government in the shorter term, but there are a 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:26.800 lot of broader things to say about some directions the 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:28.560 government might consider going in future. 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.960 One of those other areas that the report brought up 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.000 for consideration was to do with the way the help 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.240 Hex system is currently working. And I did notice that 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.720 when we put up the story on Instagram, a lot 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.360 of the comments related to Hex's debt and the way 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:46.520 that indexation is occurring. What did the report find. 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.600 Yeah, it is, it's an issue. I guess a lot 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.680 of our audience probably has HEX debts, and so it's 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:54.440 understandable that that's a part of the system that they 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.080 focus on a whole lot, this question of how much 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:59.960 they are asked to contribute to the cost of their degree, 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.320 and in a cost of living context, when people are 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:05.720 facing a whole lot of financial strain. I think that 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.480 the burden of hextets is something that a lot of 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.680 people have been conscious of. And look, spoiler alert, this 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.760 report hasn't recommended tearing down the HEX system and making 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:16.840 the whole thing free. And I know there'll be some 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:20.240 people in the audience who wander about that issue, So 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.120 I guess, yeah, it is important. I think to give 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:25.560 a little bit of a context for why we have 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.200 the system that we have, so I guess Australia did 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.960 used to have free education for a short period of 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.040 time starting from about the seventies. The reason that we 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:40.240 moved instead to this hex loan system was basically the 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:44.880 idea that university graduates make a lot more money across 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.640 their lifetime than non university graduates, and this was the 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.200 government at the time suggesting that they should then make 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:53.800 a contribution to part of the cost of their degree, 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.880 so we don't pay for it all. The government funds 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:59.440 a portion of our degree that we don't even see. 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:03.920 It just funds universities directly, but Australian university graduates are 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.760 asked to pay for a portion. They're able to take 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.920 out a loan, and that loan, as I'm sure many 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:13.040 people know, is income contingent, so you only have to 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.520 start paying it back once you earn above a certain level. 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.760 Currently that level is about fifty thousand. And the idea 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:22.720 there again is that it's you know, once you start 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.040 earning money out in your career that you have to repay. 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.560 The debt doesn't follow you when you die. There's no 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:32.800 interest on that debt. It does get updated to match inflation, 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:36.360 so there are some complications there, but the idea again 0:09:36.400 --> 0:09:38.720 of this system is that university graduates, you can almost 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.880 think about it like a tax on unigraduates in reflection 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.199 of the higher earnings that they're expected to have. 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:48.040 Okay, so that's the context what has actually been recommended 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:49.360 in this report moving forward. 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.199 So, like I say, the review didn't recommend, you know, 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.520 tearing the whole system down, but it did point to 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.120 some I guess quirks of the way the system is 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.239 structured that might be a little bit unfair to a degree, 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.840 no pun intended. So for example, one of them, and 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:06.559 an issue that we've certainly talked about on this podcast 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:11.040 is indexation. So your hex det gets updated every year 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.480 in line with inflation, and that's not something we've had 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.040 much cause to notice until recently, when inflation has been 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.280 quite high and a lot of people got a big 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.280 bill shock on their HEX debt in the last year 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:26.280 or so. The review acknowledged concerns about the way that 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:28.720 is structured and the way that that's calculated, and whether 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:31.320 there might be fairer methods. Again of nothing specific for 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:33.600 the government at this point, but a recognition that might 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:35.960 be one to look at. And the other one is 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:40.880 this idea of repayment cliffs. So it comes back to 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.920 I said before, it's roughly fifty thousand dollars is the 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.360 level where you have to start repaying. And the way 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:51.120 that's structured is a little strange, because if you earn 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.000 a dollar below the amount, you pay nothing, and then 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.120 if you earn a dollar above the amount, you suddenly 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.080 have to pay hundreds of dollars. And that's applied in 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.439 an uneven way that can actually create these weird circumstances 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:06.440 where sometimes you could get a pay rise at work 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:09.360 and actually be worse off because you trigger one of 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:13.240 these extra repayment thresholds. And so the review also recommended 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.079 taking a look about whether that structure is fair, whether 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:20.720 that structure's sort of distorting people's financial situation. So a 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.160 couple of of kinks in the system that it recommended 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:25.520 ironing out on the HEX front. But if you're hoping 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:27.679 to see an end to the HEX system, certainly this 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:28.640 review hasn't gone there. 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:31.720 Tom One of the reasons I was really keen to 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.440 see this interim report is that a little while ago 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.400 on the podcast, Zara interviewed Shanna Brenner from end REAP 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:42.160 on campus. They've been calling for reform in response to 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.880 sexual violence at universities. Did we see anything in this 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:47.600 report to address those concerns? 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.120 Yeah, there was a little bit. It did touch on, 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.439 I guess, a range of issues about the human experience 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:56.360 of going to university because I think, I mean, we've 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.560 been talking a little bit so far about I guess 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.480 the transactional nature of universities, you know, getting as many 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.280 people in as possible, getting them degrees, and then how 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.680 do you make them pay for it? But universities aren't 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.120 just transactional. They're not just conveyor belts to a job, 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:13.120 you know, they're places where people have their formative years. 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.760 I suppose people do a lot of growing up at university. 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.360 They spend a lot of time there building contacts that 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.400 will last them for a lifetime, thinking about what they 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:23.960 want to do with their lives. It's really important to 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:27.160 make sure that universities are a nurturing and welcoming environment 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.400 and of course a safe environment. And I think that 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.240 that was definitely a theme of this review and something 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:37.360 that Education Minister Jason Clair acknowledged in his press club speech, 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.080 basically suggesting that he was going to raise this issue 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:41.480 with state and territory ministers. 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.480 Don't underestimate the seriousness with which I take this or 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.800 my willingness to act. Recommendation here is that this is 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:50.640 the way to do it, and I want to implement 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:51.480 that recommendation. 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.480 Tom will definitely be keeping an eye on this one, 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:56.160 and I'm sure we'll get you back on the pod 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:56.920 when we know more. 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:59.360 Yeah, we've got the road map. Time to start driving 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:00.440 down right. 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.040 Thank you so much for listening to this episode of 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.600 The Daily Ohs. As always, we really appreciate it. If 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.080 you're listening on Spotify, there's a little box that you 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.520 can tell us what you're thinking if you liked the episode, 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.640 and any feedback you might have. Sam and Zara will 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:23.760 be back tomorrow. Until then, have an excellent day.