1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: The other side of the problem, which is more common, 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: is people who are more themselves but actually don't know 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,159 Speaker 1: how to be a leader, and they don't know how 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: to behave and speak up and to take authority. And 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: I'd say as a core job of my job is 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: not just to be authentic myself, but create the conditions 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: for everyone at work to be authentic. 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 2: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. 11 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 12 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. 13 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: Before we get into today's show, I just wanted to 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 2: do a big shout out to everyone that has been 15 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: emailing me with listener questions and things that you would 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 2: like me to cover in twenty twenty one. If you've 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: got stuff on your mind that you would like me 18 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: to dig into the science and research around for the 19 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 2: coming year, I would love it if you could just 20 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: drop me an email Amantha at inventium dot com dot 21 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: au tell me what's on your mind and what you'd 22 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 2: like me to cover and I will do my best 23 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: to make sure I get onto that in twenty twenty one. 24 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 2: So let's get on to today's show. Very excited to 25 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 2: introduce my guest today, who is Tim McKinnon. Tim is 26 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 2: the Managing director and Vice President for eBay Australia, a 27 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,839 Speaker 2: role that he has had for the last three years. 28 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: At eBay, Tim's purpose is to help Australian retailers grow 29 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 2: and take advantage of opportunities in online, mobile, local and 30 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: global commerce and enabling businesses and entrepreneurs has been the 31 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: connecting thread in Tim's career at eBay, where he's currently at, 32 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 2: then previously at Intuit in Silicon Valley, and before that 33 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 2: advising the Minister responsible for IT industry and as a 34 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: corporate lawyer. So I actually met Tim because eBay is 35 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: a client of Inventiums and I did some work with 36 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: eBay and Tim actually interviewed me for an all staff 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: event and we got along really well, and I really 38 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 2: liked Tim and his style as a leader, so I 39 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: was very excited to have him on the show. He's 40 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 2: been doing some super cool things with eBay Australia over 41 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: the last few years. We dig into those and how 42 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: he's creating this amazing culture and how I think he's 43 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 2: a very very interesting and inspiring leader. So on that note, 44 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: let's head to Tim to hear about how he works. Tim, 45 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. 46 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: Good to be here, Amantha. 47 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: It's good to be chatting with you again. I feel 48 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: like the roles are reversed after you did the interview 49 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 2: with me for the fireside chat for eBay, So it's 50 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 2: kind of fun to be in the position to grill 51 00:02:58,280 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: you a little bit. 52 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope I didn't grew you too hard so 53 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: that you don't do the same in reverse. 54 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: No, No, you went very easy of me, so I 55 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: appreciate that. I'd love to pet a pitch. We're recording 56 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: this interview in November twenty twenty, and obviously all sorts 57 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 2: of restrictions are in flux at the moment when it 58 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: comes to COVID, So to start with, I'd just love 59 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 2: to get a picture of where are you working from 60 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: and what is that looking like for eBay right now 61 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: here in Australia. 62 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: Our office has actually been open since one July. Going 63 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: back a little bit, we left the office very early 64 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: back in February and sent everybody home. We're very lucky 65 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: at eBay that we can all work from home easily. 66 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: We've made sure everyone had equipment, and we gave people 67 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: a stipend to buy screens or chairs, and everyone took 68 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: their monitors home and we got them set up, and 69 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: we've been working predominantly from home during that period. For 70 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: the last four or five months, we started easing back 71 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: into the office and so people we've had around about 72 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: twenty or thirty percent of the team in on some days, 73 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: and teams are starting to come in. Personally, I'm working 74 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: from home today and I have been going to the 75 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: office two days a week, So it's. 76 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: Still the majority of your time spent at home. And 77 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: I'm curious, like to start with from a personal point 78 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 2: of view, are then you kind of working rituals or 79 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: routines that you've developed as a result of working from 80 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: home still the majority of the time. 81 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: A few of the habits I have picked up that 82 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: I will stick with. One, I've scheduled all my exercise 83 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: now so I have something I do a surfing class 84 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: on Monday mornings, I do running on Tuesday Thursday, and 85 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: waits class on Friday morning. And I just changed that 86 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: because even though I like to exercise, I just found 87 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: every morning I was wasting an hour kind of procrastinating 88 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: and getting out a bit later than I should, and 89 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: that started to bleed into I'm in charge of breakfast 90 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: and kids lunches, so and then I was just dropping 91 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: exercise too quickly. So that's been just one basic change 92 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: is just scheduling it so that I can't miss it. 93 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: I think something that I'd always have done is had 94 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: really started till nine thirty. So for me, as I said, 95 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: like the morning routine of getting the family sought is 96 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: really important to me. That I can go and work 97 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: and feel like everyone else has set up for the day. 98 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: But things have picked up, like the walking meeting and 99 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: the phone using old school phone, not zoom, but doing 100 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: long phone calls or just phone calls on audio and 101 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: really listening to people better and having that space and 102 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: the conversation and doing it well working Like many people 103 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: picked up a dog this year, so you know, and 104 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: that dog needs to be walked twice a day otherwise 105 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: it as the garden. So that's been the habit that 106 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: I love and will give up. I think I've enjoyed 107 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: the deep thinking time we have some routines around scheduling 108 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: deep thinking. But I've certainly had more of that and 109 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: carved out more of my day without meetings, and I've 110 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: got an amazing EA to make sure that I get 111 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: big chunks of time to think. And that's not the 112 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: people can't thrown meetings and over the top of that, Yeah. 113 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 2: That's interesting. I can definitely relate to some of those 114 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 2: things that you're saying. I am mostly an exercise scheduler 115 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: as well. I find that I will do my exercise 116 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: even if I don't schedule it, but it just helps 117 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: me in my mind just go Okay, great, I've got 118 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 2: the time to do that, and I'm a beginning of 119 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: the day exercise. And you know, that's interesting what you 120 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 2: say about phone meetings, because I feel like the default 121 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: now is video or Zoom or whatever software people are using, 122 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: and that can just be so exhausting. So I can 123 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: really relate to that. I will always default to phone 124 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: wherever possible, And my rule for myself is that unless 125 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: I need to be taking copious notes about the conversation, 126 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 2: I will always be walking if I'm having a phone meeting, 127 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: possibly just doing laps of my home. But yeah, I 128 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: really love that I want to know about the deep 129 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 2: thinking time. How much of that would you be doing 130 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 2: in a given week, and also how are you protecting 131 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: that time or how is your EA protecting that time 132 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: for you. 133 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: Yes, we actually have a rule for abay which we 134 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: implemented about two or three years ago. We have a 135 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: few rules. One is we have which original had a 136 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: no meetings Thursday afternoon and no meetings Tuesday afternoon, so 137 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: that after twelve o'clock you're not allowed to schedule any 138 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: meetings during that period. We also have no meetings liked 139 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: to be scheduled between twelve and one every day, and 140 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: we thought about having a no meeting day, but the 141 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: reality of the year is that ebakerss global company. I've 142 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: got the US, we can't tell them when to schedule meetings, 143 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: and a lot of the team having calls with the 144 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: US with the product teams and engineering teams in the morning, 145 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: so we made it in the afternoon. It was actually 146 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: as a consequence of my discussion with you and you're 147 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: talking about the importance of leaving the morning spare to 148 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: make big decisions and do deeper thinking. That we've switched 149 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: that now to a Monday morning. We have no meetings, 150 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: So we have now Monday morning and Thursday afternoon and 151 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: that's going really well. So that's one thing, like everyone 152 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: does that, and I think it requires enforcement at the 153 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: beginning to make sure because people will sneakily try to 154 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: have meetings if they can't schedule any time. And I 155 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: used to, Actually I try not to be a prison guy, 156 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: but I used to walk around at the office and 157 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: just if I saw someone in the meeting room and say, 158 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: what are you doing. It's one of the great challenges 159 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 1: of modern is that people are just doing shallow thinking. 160 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: They're constantly being interrupted, and you have to really, unfortunately 161 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 1: be a bit like a headmaster to help everyone unlearn 162 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: those behaviors and force it across the whole company. I 163 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: mean breakthrough ideas and only it comes from people doing 164 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: great individual thinking or having amazing conversations, and you've got 165 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 1: to make sure that you create space for both of those. 166 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: The other thing we do is we also are very 167 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: strict about emails and any kind of work contact after 168 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: seven pm and on the weekend. So you're allowed to 169 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: work if you want to work at night or on 170 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: the weekend, you can, but you have to not send 171 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: it to somebody else, so you just go in offline 172 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: mode and schedule your emails to come during the working days. 173 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: So that's really important to create that boundary, particularly for 174 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: the more senior pace, because junior people feel like they 175 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: have to respond to an email if they get it 176 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: at night. 177 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: Wow, I love that. How long have you had that 178 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 2: email rule or policy in place. 179 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: I think it's been about two or three years. And 180 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: again you have to keep coming back to it. Like 181 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: during COVID we lost it for a little bit and 182 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: we had to remind people it was only minor breaches, 183 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: but people started to creep back in. And occasionally people 184 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: do it accidentally, but I remember I used to get 185 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: tons of emails at night. And there are people we 186 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 1: work with that have their best moments of thinking after 187 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: dinner and they're seeing they have a glass of wine 188 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: and they're firing off emails to people and thoughts. And 189 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: I've been guilty of that in the past. And as 190 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: much as you could write in the email, hey, do 191 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: not look at this until tomorrow or you don't respond, 192 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: people would and it would just fire up their brain 193 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: and it disrupts people's sleep. And so it's I think 194 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: it's been really effective. These sort of sound like rules 195 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 1: that you'd set at school, but I think we all 196 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: need help collectively. I think we're all going through this 197 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: massive experiment with mobile phones and our work with us 198 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: all the time, and sometimes someone else creating a rule 199 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: can help us all create a better practice. 200 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, I do want to delve into, like a 201 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: bit more about how you do create these norms, But 202 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 2: first I want to come back to your own individual 203 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: deep work before we move away from that. So, in 204 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 2: a typical week, how many hours of deep work would 205 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 2: you have scheduled in your diary or would you get done? 206 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 1: It's never quite as much as you'd like to do, 207 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: you know, there are like we all face interruptions. But 208 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: I have three sessions at least where I don't have meetings, 209 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: so it would be like the Monday morning and two afternoons. 210 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: So we have the one scheduled, but aa DEVI also 211 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: carves out another one for me, and of those two 212 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: of those, I'm actually typically two out of three, I'm 213 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: doing proper deep work where I've got my note book 214 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: out and I'm writing down and thinking through things, and 215 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: the other one I use on email or kind of 216 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: reading stuff online and there's no particular day, that's just 217 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: typically how it works out. And then on top of that, 218 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: one morning a week, for whatever reason, I'll wake up 219 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: a bit earlier, like sometimes because I've because this damn 220 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: scheduled exercise, I'm quite tired, and I fall asleep putting 221 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: the kids to bed, like at eight, and so I'll 222 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: wake up the next morning at four. And then that's 223 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, where I would have some really kind of 224 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: powerful thinking time. And I find that for me either 225 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: like just writing it helps, like that helps to generate 226 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 1: ideas or obviously talking to other people, like I'm extroverted 227 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: and riff off other people. But writing with handwriting stuff, 228 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,439 Speaker 1: you know, and I do a little bit of journaling. 229 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: I'm trying to do more of that, but that that helped. 230 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: It's clarify I think you want. 231 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 2: That's interesting. So handwriting and what would a typical deep 232 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 2: work session then look like for you? So I'm imagining 233 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 2: you've got your actual physical notebook open, you're writing. Is 234 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 2: there a problem that you're focused on or are you 235 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: just is it a bit free form like almost like 236 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 2: I'm thinking of I think it's Julia Cameron that is 237 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: the Morning Pages person where she just says, just write 238 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 2: for half an hour about whatever is going through your mind. 239 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 2: What does that look like for you? 240 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've got like a notebook and I have 241 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: to do list and there's like task stuff, and then 242 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: I write down the bottom. My to do is that 243 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: are like things that are a bit harder for me, 244 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: like problems, We've got to figure out which are a 245 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: little bit more strategic. So I would pick one of those. 246 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: I'm a fan of that kind of free writing style. 247 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: If you're really stuck for ideas that you just write 248 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: and things start to come that it fires up some 249 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: part of the brain. My biggest enemy is as as 250 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: I said, like, you solve problems either from deep thinking 251 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: or from great conversations. And I'm an extrovert and I 252 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: love having great conversations. So sometimes I get excited about 253 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: an idea and I'll write something down and I'll come 254 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: up with something like I want to call someone to 255 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: chat through this. So I think that's one of the 256 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: challenges for me is I can kind of interrupt myself. 257 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, so typically it's like it's the laptop down 258 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: and using a notebook, and that's kind of a signify 259 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: to me that that I'm doing something that there's a 260 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: different kind of thinking. 261 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, are there any other things that you do to 262 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: help with creative problem solving? So you said just freeform 263 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 2: writing seeing what comes out is really helpful for you. 264 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: Are there any other things that you do when you've 265 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: got I guess the equivalent of writer's block about a 266 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 2: problem that you're trying to solve. 267 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: Oh, I've listening to the dance music that helps me, 268 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: and it creates a certain rhythm for me. Running is 269 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: great for me, Like, I often find that like it 270 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: while I run, Like I get that's where my brain 271 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: goes into places and I think of different things. But 272 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: you know, I mean I said, like the free writing 273 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: is probably one of the most effective techniques when I'm 274 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: really stuck, and then otherwise, like it is, I do 275 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: get a lot from talking through problems with other people 276 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: and bouncing stuff off people that helps clarify my thinking. 277 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: Now, I want to come back to what you were 278 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: saying around. I have this image of you like walking 279 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 2: around policing the meeting rooms, which is quite funny but 280 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: something I was really struck by it After you guys 281 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 2: had brought me in to speak at your All Company 282 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: event here in Australia. Is that. I remember checking in 283 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 2: with a couple of your team and asking what's happened 284 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 2: since the virtual keynote, and I was really struck by 285 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 2: how many changes had actually happened. And I feel like 286 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 2: so often when companies get a keynote speaker in, people 287 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: will get excited and revd up if it's a decent speaker, 288 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: but nothing will actually change fundamentally. And to me that's 289 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: such a depressing thought. But I feel like the degree 290 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: of change that you were then able to influence was 291 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: really quite on the extreme end based on what I've seen. 292 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: And I want to know for you, what are those 293 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: strategies that you are aware of using as a leader 294 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: to create that change on mass because I think that 295 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 2: that is something that makes you very unique as a 296 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: leader from the leaders that I've worked with. 297 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: I was going to say that it was view man 298 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: to that. I mean, it was a great keynote and 299 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: people really inspired. I think that you came in a 300 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: moment we're all turning a mind, well how do we 301 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: actually use this period and how do we use this 302 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: crisis to make permanent change? And so there's the timing 303 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: and your keynote we're both great. I mean, one of 304 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: the advantages we have is we only we have one 305 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: hundred hundred and fifty people in your organization, and we 306 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 1: pride ourselves on having a very flat structure that all 307 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: of the leadership team, including me, are very accessible to everyone, 308 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: that we all know each other and so we don't 309 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: need to kind of cascade down as much. We have 310 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: very direct communication methods. 311 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 2: And what do you mean by that? 312 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: I send a note out every Monday, I say morning, 313 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: but tends to go at about one o'clock. It used 314 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: to be called Notes from the Hot Desk because we 315 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: all used a hot desk, including me. Now it's called 316 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: Notes from the Home Desk, and that's a collaborative piece 317 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: of work that I send out. But we use it 318 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: to kind of all major people related stuff as a 319 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: forcing function to communicate all the change and align people 320 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: around what we're trying to do. So you know, we'll 321 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: all I mean just basic stuff. It's got in it, hey, 322 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: all the comings and goings of people, you know, a 323 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: new starter, the photo of them, and then someone who's leaving. 324 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: Because before those emails used to go out sporadically and 325 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: sometimes you wouldn't have good routines around it, and they 326 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: forget to get some a new start. I would start 327 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: without that email going out, And so it's all of that. 328 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: It's personal things are going off for people on the team, 329 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: Like you know, we have a lot of people on 330 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: the team had kids. I think we've had about fifteen 331 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: twenty percent of the team out opportunity to leave. We 332 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: have both maternity and primary care and secondary care leave, 333 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: so lots of kids. And then business updates like what 334 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: did we achieve last week, what are the big releases, 335 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: what are the things we're really proud of, and we 336 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 1: want to shout out to people about. And then at 337 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: the beginning, I like I write and I try to 338 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: bring the personal. I try to talk about what's going 339 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: on in my life, what's going on in my head. 340 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: But we also talk a lot about how we work 341 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: together and the culture and the changes we make. So 342 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: after your session, we all we had a few conversations 343 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: between us. We're like, oh, that's great, we should think 344 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: about some changes based on manthis suggested, let's think about changing, 345 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: you know, the our meeting free time and using mornings. 346 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: Let's move our team meeting to the afternoon. And so 347 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: we had this kind of forcing functions. Okay, we'll get 348 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: that out for the next hot desk notes or home 349 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: desk notes. That's one I didn't feel like we made 350 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: that super quickly. We had. We actually had a few 351 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: meetings as a leadership team about this, like post COVID, 352 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: how we're going to work it, and through that process 353 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: we're like, we have got to get back together in 354 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: person because these zoom meetings where we're discussing this SID, 355 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: we're just not getting deep enough and we're not making 356 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: decisions as well as we used to. So we made 357 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: that decision. I think it took like a bunch of changes. 358 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: It took three or four weeks, which normally we'd like 359 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: to move a bit faster than that. I think the 360 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: other crook I've got an amazing leadership team and a 361 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 1: really strong extended leadership team, and the process with these 362 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: things is is just we empower one person to take 363 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: this and go Okay, who's thinking through our ways of 364 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: working this case as Katie, who's our people leader, and 365 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: she worked closely with Sophie and they developed the plan 366 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: and they come back to us. So speed and getting 367 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: decisions made is about just empowering good people, giving them 368 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: some principles or guardrails with which to make the decisions 369 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: to guide them, Like the brief is really important and 370 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: with decision making, that's something we've done a lot of 371 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: work on this year, is how we create guardrails or 372 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 1: guidelines and push decisions down the team. And we just 373 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: gave it to Katie and then she came back and 374 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: presented and people ask questions and have additional thoughts and 375 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: then we've got Okay, we're good with this, let's go. 376 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 2: You make it sound so easy. I want to delve 377 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,239 Speaker 2: into the work that you've done around decision making. So 378 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 2: what have you done there, Like what are some of 379 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 2: the principles or guardrails or things that you have put 380 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 2: in place as a leadership team to make better decisions. 381 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: Well, first comment like, I'm sorry if I made it 382 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: sound easy, and apologize like it's not easy, and you know, 383 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: we haven't got it all figured out. We're learning as 384 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: we go, and decision making is one of those things. 385 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: I mean, we have like a quarterly engagement survey and 386 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: which we use to measure how we're going on lots 387 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: of key dimensions and one that has always been bad globally, 388 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: and I understand actually in the tech industry is decision making, 389 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 1: particularly like platform companies like eBay, we have buyers and sellers. 390 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: You know, we have over forty thousand Australian small businesses 391 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: on the platform. We have two in three Australian shopping 392 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: through the platform. And our role as as a platform 393 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: and the extent to which we manage the marketplace is great, 394 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: and so it's like a complex thing just making decisions 395 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: about well, how much should we be involved in this, 396 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: how much should we influence the experience, how much do 397 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: we intermediate experience at buyers and sellers. So that's one 398 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: of the things about being tech company that decision makers 399 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: had plus global plus highly matrix. So decision making has 400 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 1: always been something that we have scored. Has been one 401 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,479 Speaker 1: of our lower scores, if not the lowest score, and 402 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: we spent a lot of time working on it over 403 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: the last eighteen months and we are good at making decisions. 404 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: We've raised that thirteen points and so we're now just 405 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: just close to world class but not quite there, and 406 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: we're still working on it. 407 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 2: What have you done, like, how did you raise it 408 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 2: thirteen point? 409 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: The first thing we did is is the basic prince 410 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: who are pushing down decisions, and so we actually empowered 411 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: a team within, Like we didn't have the leadership team 412 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: work on this. We had a few people in our 413 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: team who worked on it and tried to develop and 414 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: they got really excited about it, as if I really 415 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: talented people who went through and say, Okay, what's the problem. 416 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 1: What's some kind of frameworks that we can have have 417 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 1: for how we approach decisions? And they came up with 418 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: a proposal which we iterated on and tried it out 419 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: and see what resonated. I think the most important principle, 420 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: as I said, is is like is how do you 421 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: push down decisions? How do you empower people to make decisions? 422 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: Too often we feel like as leaders, well like my 423 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: job is to make all the hard decisions. And it's true, 424 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: there are some decisions that you want a really complex 425 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: and you want your most experienced people to make. But 426 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: that's the minority of decisions. Most of the decisions that 427 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: can be made by people down the organization. But what 428 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: they need to make those decisions is clarity on what 429 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: other things they should weigh up. And so we tried 430 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: to document better and documentations. I was listening to your 431 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: GitHub podcasts recently. Yeah, with Darren Murk, documentation and process 432 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: really does give people leverage. It's so hard that we're 433 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: just so not used to doing that, and so we 434 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: started to write down what we call guardrails for the decision. So, 435 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: what are the few principles that you weigh up to 436 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: decide what asset, what marketing or advertising asset you should 437 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: put on the homepage? You know, how do you prioritize 438 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: those sort of things? They used to require a lot 439 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: of meetings and debate. But if you just give some 440 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: clear guardrails to people and say now you make the 441 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: decision and you have the discretion to make it, that 442 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: helps a lot. I really like Ray Dalio's principles and 443 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: how he tries to write down, you know, the principles 444 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: for everything, every value, every decision. And we're not quite 445 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: at that level, but I just think actually providing a 446 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: little bit of clarity to people. I mean, obviously the 447 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: other thing is a lot of things don't require a decision, 448 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: you know, they can just be tested and so just saying, hey, 449 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: are we actually really making a decision here? Are we 450 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: going to try something out and works? And if it's 451 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: the latter, then you don't need to debate it as much. 452 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: Things that need decisions the most, the hardest generally relate 453 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: to people because you can't ab test them and go, 454 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: we're going to give you this role and then we'll 455 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: see how you go take it off you in three months. 456 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: So they're the ones where that requires the most debate 457 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: and discussion of the leadership team and different perspectives and 458 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: occasionally require me to make that decision when I'm able 459 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: to figure it out. 460 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's really interesting this idea around pushing 461 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 2: decisions down the chain. It reminds me. I've recently interviewed 462 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 2: Rahul Vora, who's the founder and CEO of Superhuman, which 463 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 2: is in my opinion, the best email client software in 464 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 2: the world. And so it's an incredibly fast growing startup 465 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: based in San fran and I think he's got about 466 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 2: forty staff now, and he said he thinks a lot 467 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 2: about decision making as well, and he says, basically, if 468 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: the decision is irreversible, he will make it, but any 469 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 2: decision that is reversible, he delegates. And it was just 470 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: such a clear way and simple way of I thought 471 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 2: thinking about decision making as the leader of a company. 472 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: So I'm intrigued that you're using a similar process there. 473 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 2: I imagine something I know that you've been like very 474 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 2: focused on it. eBay is creating I think what you 475 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 2: call a one team culture, and I know that you've 476 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 2: had quite a lot of initiatives that were in my 477 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 2: mind quite unusual things that I hadn't heard of before 478 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 2: to help drive that one team culture, which is obviously 479 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: even more critical with hybrid teams and people working from 480 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 2: all over the place. Can you talk about some of 481 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 2: the more kind of unusual or unique things that you've 482 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 2: done to help create that one team culture. 483 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: So the first thing I don't know if I'll say 484 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: it's unusual, but it's really distinctive about eBay is we 485 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: have this amazing meeting every two weeks which is our 486 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: all hands meeting. And you know, when we're all together, 487 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: could we're not so big, we couldn't all squeeze into 488 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: one room. And what I love about that meeting is 489 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: the essence of the culture of the company that everyone's 490 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: together kind of celebrating the things we do, and it 491 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: brings in the personal. Like I say, it starts off 492 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: the meeting we have we rotate across the leadership team 493 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: the host, so it's not me hosting it. It's delegated, 494 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: and every leadership team member brings a different personal flavor 495 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 1: or story or shows a video or tells a personal story. 496 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: It could be funny, it could be you know, they 497 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: share some vulnerability. And then then we have a new 498 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: starter has to get up and do their get to 499 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: know in front of the whole company, and they're they're 500 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: just always amazing in different ways because people share about 501 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: them in their lives and so that sets a tone 502 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: of hey, like your own personal self and work together 503 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: in this room, like we're a bit more like family. 504 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: And I always say it's a bit it's a bit 505 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: like a wedding kind of crowd. People always nervous about 506 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: the guitar. I say, it's like doing your wedding speech, 507 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: like people will laugh at the lamess jokes that you 508 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: ever make. And then we go through and do content 509 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: from different teams, and then I wrap up at the end, 510 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: and we've actually been able to replicate that well virtually 511 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: the meetings. We were worried about that, but the meetings 512 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 1: are still being great. You can't hear the laughter, which 513 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: is a bit weird, but the comments is this a 514 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: new dimension. So like everyone's in there making comments and 515 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: giving feedback and making jokes and so I think that's 516 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: like really critical. The other one that it's hard to replicate. 517 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: We have this this amazing guy who suffers from a disability, 518 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: and eBay has employed for over ten years and he 519 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: does the mail and facilities and he comes around every 520 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: day and he just is the happiest, most engaging guy 521 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: and he chats to everybody and he plays Christmas music 522 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: at Christmas Tone. He's got his little trolley with his 523 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: tinselon and Andy his name is, and he's like, he's 524 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: kind of our mascot. And I think he sets something 525 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: in the team because he talks to everyone and engage everyone. 526 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: He kind of creates this in the team that that's 527 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: a norm, so people connect across other teams. And on 528 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: top of that, we did lots of forced activity to 529 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: try to force teams to connect. So we're hot desks, 530 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: which a lot of companies do, but that real people 531 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: love their desks. So we actually forced on Wednesday and 532 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: we would mix it up and you would get allocated 533 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: at a desk a random lottery and you'd sit next 534 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: to someone different to force those spontaneous connections and make 535 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: sure that everyone still knows each other. And we have 536 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: lots of other activities, family days, and you know, we're 537 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: our Christmas party this year. We can't obviously all get 538 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: together for that, but we've organized six or seven different activities, 539 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: so Harbor Cruz and a show at the Opera House, 540 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: and people are picking different activities, but they're all from 541 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: different teams and we're trying to mix them up and 542 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: make sure we've got different teams connecting. 543 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: I heard that with the Hot Desk, I love the 544 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 2: Hot Desk lottery. That's very cool. I heard that you 545 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 2: had a remote version of Hot Desking. Is that correct? 546 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: We did zoom coffees, so we had random, randomly generated 547 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: coffees with people and match them up and just get 548 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: people to talk to each other who otherwise wouldn't. And 549 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: I think we sustained that for a few months. We 550 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: did a lot of other virtual things to try to 551 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: connect people, like Sophie runs his amazing trivia. We've had 552 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: cooking classes just we've tried lots of different stuff, and 553 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: gin tasting or afternoons like de sent out like all 554 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: these gin packs to everybody who had wine tasting with wine, everybody, 555 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: and all these things to just try to get people 556 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: to connect with people that otherwise weren't connecting with. 557 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 2: I want to come back to what you said in 558 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 2: the few minutes that we've got remaining around. You said, 559 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 2: like the Monday newsletter, Hey, you're right, like you'll start 560 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 2: with a personal anecdote or something. And I feel like 561 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 2: people talk about the importance of being an authentic leader, 562 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 2: But the sense I get, and certainly the sense I 563 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: got from working with you guys, is that you you 564 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: actually really are good at doing that in practice, which 565 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 2: again I find, you know, relatively rare with the leaders 566 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 2: that I work with. And I want to know, and 567 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 2: I don't know if you sort of given this conscious 568 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 2: thought or if it just is something that just comes naturally, 569 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 2: in which case, please give it some conscious thought. Now, 570 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 2: how do you do that in practical terms for people 571 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 2: that are listening, that are aware that, you know, maybe 572 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 2: they've been given the feedback or the advice, you know, 573 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 2: be an authentic leader because they get better results. How 574 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 2: else do you go about doing that aside from from 575 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 2: the hot desk and then the idea of you and 576 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 2: your leadership team sharing those personal anecdotes to kick off 577 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 2: the all hands meeting every fortnight. 578 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: Well, so this is a really important question. There's two dimensions. 579 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: There's people who are leaders who struggle with being authentic. 580 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: There's a balance in life between having authority and being approachable, 581 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: and so there's people at both ends of the spectrum, 582 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: and they're more senior leaders, and we get frustrated at 583 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: our politicians and American CEOs is not being authentic. Right. 584 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: The other side of the problem, which is more common, 585 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: is people who are more themselves but actually don't know 586 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: how to be a leader, and they don't know how 587 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: to behave and to speak up and to take authority. 588 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: And I'd say as a core job of my job 589 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: is not just to be authentic myself, but create the 590 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: conditions for everyone at work to be authentic. And I 591 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: know that people can't be one hundred percent say whatever 592 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: they think, or one hundred percent themselves. I can think 593 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: that idea is, you know, we all have kind of 594 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: versions of ourselves that we show to people, even to 595 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: the people we're closest to. But I mean, like our 596 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: job is to help people in their workplace, actually their 597 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: work self and their home self not be that different. 598 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: Like if there's a massive dichotomy between those as a 599 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: real problem. And secondly, to help them be leaders. Like 600 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: I think everyone on my team are amazing leaders, and 601 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: my job is to create the conditions where they feel 602 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: comfortable speaking up and expressing their view. So I guess 603 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: I'll start with it like practical tips for people. If 604 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: the first case, if you're a leader and you're struggling 605 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: with authenticity, been given that feedback, My first question you 606 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: should ask yourself is is this an environment where I 607 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: can I really feel like it supports me for who 608 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: I am? Or is there just too much they're just 609 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: too different? And if it's if it's not that environment, 610 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: you don't feel like you can be yourself and you 611 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,240 Speaker 1: can see no way to being yourself because of the culture, 612 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: it might not be the best environment for you. But 613 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: the other part of it is, well, how do you 614 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: change the environment to make it so that people can 615 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: be themselves more? And then what it starts with you? So, 616 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: I mean the first thing to being authentic is being vulnerable. 617 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: I think that's like the key. You know, it's just 618 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: people admitting that they don't have it all under control. 619 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: For people saying I don't know the answer to that. 620 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do here. I'm struggling. If 621 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: you start with that, people will reach out and that 622 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: really builds trust. And I mean anyone who's accused of 623 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: being fake or not authentic as someone who is not 624 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: genuinely about what's going wrong, because nobody has got it 625 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,919 Speaker 1: under control, like no one. And then obviously, like as 626 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: you develop that capability that's developing your self awareness is 627 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: really important and generally and self reflection can help. And 628 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: I'm still got to do a lot more of that. 629 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: You know, while you're getting to that, getting feedback from people, 630 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: like there must be people you can trust it and 631 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: just tell you, just be honest with you and say 632 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: especially as you get more senior, people are less likely 633 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: to tell you the truth. So you've got to seek 634 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: it out and you've got to find people who give 635 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: it to you straight and talk to them a lot. 636 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: Whenever someone's leaving the company, I always try to chat 637 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: to them and get feedback because you know they're going 638 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: to be honest in that situation because they don't have 639 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: to think about working with you in the future. And 640 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 1: then the last thing is probably just you know, creating 641 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 1: every opportunity to fuse your personal life and your work life. 642 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: So talk about your life outside of work a lot 643 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 1: at work, so people understand that part of you and 644 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: that feels natural and I think that that really helps. 645 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 1: And so incorporate talking about your family, or your hobbies, 646 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: or your fears, or your history, or your hopes or 647 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: your holidays, just obviously in a way that resonates with 648 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: other people. I'm not saying go through all your holiday 649 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,240 Speaker 1: photos when you get back, but just bring that personal 650 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: dimension to work and then you'll start to see that 651 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: barrier breakdown for the second class of people that struggle 652 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: to speak up to be leaders. People have imposter syndrome. 653 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: I think everyone suffers from that. I remember distinctly when 654 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 1: I was made the managing director of EBO Australia. We 655 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: had an all hands and my then boss was about 656 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: to announce my name and I was sitting there and 657 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: I had this overwhelming feeling of wanting to vomit on 658 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: the carpet, Like I just felt nausea that I'd never 659 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: felt in my life before. And I stood up and 660 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: I really really really had to had to contain myself 661 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 1: from doing like a massive projectile vomiting everyone, which would 662 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: been a really bad start because I'd never thought of myself. 663 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: I'm not this guy, like, I'm not that kind of person. Off, 664 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: I never had aspired to be a CEO. I grew 665 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: up and my idea of who a leader is is 666 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 1: completely different, and I had to remind myself, well, actually, 667 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: like I've managed to do things and lead and achieve 668 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 1: notwithstanding that, notwithstanding I never fit this mold. And so 669 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: to people who struggle, I'd say that you have to 670 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: remember that what has got you to where you are 671 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: is good like and you are a leader, and you 672 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,280 Speaker 1: kind of need to, you know, find people that believe 673 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: in you. It might just be your parents and just 674 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: reinforce you and say you can do this and start 675 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: to speak up. There was a colleague at eBay who 676 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: who wasn't comfortable speaking up when he wrote down every 677 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,879 Speaker 1: decision that was getting made in these meetings and what 678 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 1: he would have decided, and he went back. He wrote 679 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,839 Speaker 1: this over like twelve months, and he went back and 680 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,919 Speaker 1: found that he was actually making the right decisions eighty 681 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: percent of the time, but he wasn't actually expressing his view. 682 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,240 Speaker 1: And if you don't know what to speak up about, 683 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: you don't know how to have impact, Like you get 684 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: really good, I sort of say to people, start Bay, 685 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: get really good to understand the data, or know the customers, 686 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: really will talk to them more than anyone else, or 687 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: really invest in the relationships across the company, and that 688 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: will give you the authority and the confidence to speak 689 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 1: up and lead in meetings. And then the way that 690 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,800 Speaker 1: you do that is really important, like the way I 691 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: don't know if you come across Francis Free. Yes, absolutely, 692 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: and she talks about the logic wobbles and how you 693 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: inverse the communication and for people, I think she nails 694 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: this aspect that like the key job with authenticity is 695 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it should be starting to be authin yourself, 696 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: but it's really about how you create the culture where 697 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: other people can speak up and you get diverse views 698 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:57,800 Speaker 1: and you celebrate different views. 699 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 2: Definitely, yes, And I lucky enough actually to see her 700 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 2: Ted talk back in I think twenty nineteen. I want 701 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 2: to say so I might link to that in the 702 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 2: show notes because I think it echoes a lot of 703 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 2: what you're saying. Such great advice Tim on being a leader, 704 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 2: and that's somewhat encouraging but also awful that you felt 705 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 2: like vomiting when you're announced as the head of EBA Australia. 706 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 2: Hopefully you're feeling more comfortable in the role now. Sounds 707 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 2: like you are. 708 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: Learning, getting there, but not too comfortable, like always learning 709 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: and none of this is easy for anybody. 710 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,320 Speaker 2: Very true. Well, look, Tim, it has been an absolute 711 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 2: joy talking with you and learning more about how you 712 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 2: lead For people that are listening and want to connect 713 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 2: with you in some way, what is the best way 714 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 2: for people to do that? 715 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, on LinkedIn? Obviously I've canceled little social media somehow 716 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 1: LinkedIn I still find it. I find myself looking at 717 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: it when I should be doing other things. But T 718 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: T McKinnon at eBay dot com. So yes, m A 719 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: c k T m A c k I n in 720 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: at eBay dot com. You can drop me a note 721 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: and as long as I'm not doing deep thinking, I'll 722 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 1: get back to you. 723 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 2: Might get a response. Awesome, Well, Tim, thank you so 724 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 2: much for your time. It's been such a pleasure. 725 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: Thanks Amantha. 726 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 2: That is it for today's show. If you enjoyed it, 727 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,879 Speaker 2: why not share it with someone who you think would 728 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 2: also like it. Just click on the little share icon 729 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to this podcast and if you're enjoying 730 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 2: how I work. I know I always ask this, but 731 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 2: if you haven't left a review, I would love it 732 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 2: if you could leave a review. That would be hugely, 733 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 2: amazingly awesome. It's great getting feedback from listeners and those 734 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 2: of you that have written some very kind words. It 735 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 2: really does bring a huge smile to my face. One 736 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 2: of the highlights of my day reading some of the 737 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 2: amazing reviews that have come through. So thank you. So 738 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 2: it is it for today's show, and I will see 739 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 2: you next time.