1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Bunjelung Cargottin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 2: This episode includes some really distressing content related to sexual assault. 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: If you need help, you can call one eight hundred 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: respect or Lifeline. On thirteen eleven fourteen. 10 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. Happy Friday. 11 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 3: It's the twenty ninth of September. I'm sam I Nina. 12 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 3: Less than the third of police strip searchers across five 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 3: festivals between twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two in 14 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 3: New South Wales followed proper legal processes. That's according to 15 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 3: an audit by the state's police watchdog. So with summer 16 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 3: and festival season around the corner, we're going to speak 17 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 3: with the lawyer about what your rights are and what 18 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 3: you need to know if you find yourself being strip searched. 19 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 4: Look under the law. So strip searches should only be 20 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 4: occurring in the most exceptional of circumstances. 21 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 3: But fascinating not a conclusion to a Royal Commission. 22 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 2: That's right. The final report of the Royal Commission into Violence, Abuse, 23 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 2: Neglect and Exploitation of People with Disability will be released today. 24 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 2: The Royal Commission was called following reports of abuse against 25 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 2: people with disability and ran for almost four years. It 26 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: was handed to the Governor General yesterday and its recommendations 27 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 2: will be considered by the government. 28 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 3: Facial recognition technology will be implemented at Melbourne's Amy Park 29 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 3: ahead of the new A League season next month. It'll 30 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 3: be used to identify supporters who have been banned from 31 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 3: the grounds due to misconduct at previous games, and it 32 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 3: comes after Melbourne Victory supporters stormed the pitch during a 33 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 3: match against rivals Melbourne City last year. 34 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: The second US Republican Debate took place in California on Wednesday. 35 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 2: US time leading candidate Donald Trump wasn't involved in the debate, 36 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: hosting a rally in the state of Michigan. Instead. Florida 37 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: Governor Rond De Santis, seen as the biggest challenger to Trump, 38 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: so the former president Owes it to voters to attend 39 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 2: the debates. 40 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 3: And your Friday. Good news, millions of extra US students 41 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 3: will be eligible for free breakfast and lunches while at school. 42 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 3: The US Department of Agriculture estimates that three thousand additional 43 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 3: school districts serving over five million students will be included 44 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 3: in the program. A new report was released by the 45 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 3: New South Wales Police Watchdog this week. It looked at 46 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 3: strip searches across five music festivals in twenty twenty one 47 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 3: and twenty twenty two, and it found that only twenty 48 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 3: seven percent of them followed correct police processes. So to 49 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 3: talk a little bit about what this all means and 50 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 3: what to do if you find yourself being strip searched, 51 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 3: we spoke to senior solicitor from the Redfern Legal Center, 52 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 3: Sam Lee, and just keep in mind as you listen 53 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 3: to this conversation that Sam practices in New Southwales, but 54 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 3: the law is a bit different in other parts of 55 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 3: the country. Sam, thanks for joining us on the Daily 56 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 3: OZ today. 57 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 4: Oh happy to be here. Thank you. 58 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 3: I want to start this conversation by understanding what the 59 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 3: strip search is. 60 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 4: Yes, well, there's two main searches police undertake The first 61 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 4: one usually is a general search, so that's where police 62 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 4: can take off your outer clothing, your shoes, hats, but 63 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 4: cannot take anything further off. The second type of search 64 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 4: is what's known as a strip search, and basically it's 65 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 4: anything beyond a general search, so anything beyond the outer 66 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 4: clothing where police require you to take off any inner 67 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 4: clothing that's your t shirt, your underpants, your bra. Even 68 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 4: if they're pulling out your pants and looking down into 69 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 4: your underwear or pulling out the front of your top 70 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 4: and looking into your breast area, then that's still considered 71 00:03:59,040 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 4: a strip search. 72 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,839 Speaker 3: And if police at a music festival, or in any 73 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 3: context but at a music festival do ask to strip 74 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 3: search you, are you obliged to let them do that look. 75 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 4: Under the law, strip searchers should only be occurring in 76 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 4: the most exceptional of circumstances, and even if there's reasonable 77 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 4: suspicion of minor drug possession, that's not enough to meet 78 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 4: the legal threshold of conducting a strip search. But what 79 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 4: we find happens at music festivals is a very common 80 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 4: scenario like this, a young person lines up at the festival. 81 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 4: They while lining up, a sniffer dog comes near them 82 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 4: and may or may not sort of sort of indicate, 83 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 4: and police then use that indication take the person out 84 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 4: of the music festival line and straight from that line 85 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 4: to a tent where they conduct a full body strip search. 86 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 4: Now that is unlawful because, as I said, you can't 87 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,799 Speaker 4: go to a strip search without meeting a very high 88 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 4: legal threshold. 89 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 3: And so the threshold isn't met if a sniffer dog 90 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 3: identifies that you might have something on you. 91 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 4: No, it's not. In fact, even just a search is 92 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 4: not met by a drug dog indicating. If a drug 93 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 4: dog indicates, it only gives police powers to question you. 94 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 4: It doesn't actually give them the powers to search you. 95 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 4: Before a police officer can search you, they must form 96 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 4: under the law what's called reasonable suspicion, and that then 97 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 4: gives them the power to search you, but it does 98 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 4: not then give them the power to strip search you. 99 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 3: What advice do you have for people who are almost 100 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 3: mid process and trying to negotiate their way through what 101 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 3: is quite a complex system. 102 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 4: Is and it's a very intimidating system. It's okay for 103 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 4: us to talk here in our safe environment, but when 104 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 4: you're up against police who usually are carrying firearms. It's 105 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 4: a very difficult scenario. The thing I do tell people 106 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 4: is if you can't say anything else, the best thing 107 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 4: to say is that I do not consent to the search. 108 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 4: Ask them to put on their body worn video footage 109 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 4: and say that when the footage is on. Also get 110 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 4: them to note it in their notebook. If you have 111 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 4: a friend, you would be a good idea if the 112 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 4: friend remembers to film the interaction from a distance. If 113 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 4: they film it close up, then it's quite likely they're 114 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 4: going to get into trouble, and also their phone might 115 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 4: be confiscated, so filming from a distance could be a 116 00:06:54,200 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 4: real advantage. Unfortunately, even if a young person and says 117 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 4: I don't want to be strip searched, police then may 118 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 4: still use force to strip search you or take you 119 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 4: for a search look unless you unless you're willing to 120 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 4: go into custody and go to a police station. I 121 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 4: would not advise to start being abrupt and use force 122 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 4: against police. It is important just for your own safety 123 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 4: to be cooperative. If you are the ages from ten 124 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 4: to seventeen, then police must under the law call a 125 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 4: parent or guardian before conducting a strip search. 126 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: And we're obviously having this conversation today because of this 127 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 3: report from the New South Wales Police infrastructure. You yourself 128 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: are a lawyer in New South Wales. Do you know 129 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 3: if the process that you've walked me through today is 130 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 3: the same in other states and territories. 131 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 4: There are similar laws in other states and territories, but 132 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 4: some are tighter. The better law probably is in the 133 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 4: Act where police are required to get court permission to 134 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 4: undertake a strip search. Their law in yourself blows a 135 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 4: child as young as ten to be strip searched in 136 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 4: front of adult police officers. It does require parents to 137 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 4: be or guardian to be called, but it also the 138 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 4: law also allows for an opt out clause where if 139 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 4: police think the search is urgent to protect evidence or 140 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 4: for the safety of the child, then they don't have 141 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 4: to call the parent or guardian. 142 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: Right. 143 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 3: And I know that you at the Redfern Legal Center 144 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 3: are representing some people in a class action, so there's 145 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 3: multiple people involved in that. That's the idea of a 146 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 3: class action, and in that you're alleging that New Southerwal's 147 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 3: police have done unlawful strip searches. 148 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 4: Yes. Sorry. The case was filed in the court around 149 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 4: July this year. Anyone that has been searched at a 150 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 4: music festival within the last six years can still register 151 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 4: for that class action. As you rightly say, are Our 152 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:14,599 Speaker 4: submission is that New South Wales police have conducted thousands 153 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 4: of unlawful strip searches in New South Wales. 154 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 3: And what have the general experiences been of those that 155 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 3: you're engaging with so far? 156 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 4: Look, so many people are quite keen to be part 157 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 4: of this class action. Many of my clients have gone 158 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 4: through horrific circumstances. For example, I have permission to share 159 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 4: a story of a young woman before she went to 160 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 4: this music festival. She was sexually assaulted a couple of 161 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 4: years beforehand, and while she was waiting in the line 162 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 4: at the festival, the police picked her out of the 163 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 4: line due to it drug dog indication. Took us straight 164 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 4: from that line to a wasn't a tent, It was 165 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 4: like a strange container that they used to conduct some 166 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 4: strip searches. She was asked to strip down immediately take 167 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 4: off her bra and underwear. She was also wearing a 168 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 4: tampon at the time and asked to remove that tampon 169 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 4: and to squat while a police officer moved underneath her 170 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 4: to look up into her vagina area. This is how 171 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 4: severe some of these cases get. After that, nothing was found, 172 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 4: and she was then sent out into the music festival 173 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 4: and told to, you know, get on with her life. 174 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 4: But after that event, there was no way she wanted 175 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 4: to go enjoy a music festival and was quite traumatized 176 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 4: some years later even after that. 177 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 3: That's a difficult story to hear. I do also know, Sam, 178 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 3: just to end that, we do have some listeners who 179 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 3: are police officers themselves, and I'd like to perhaps end 180 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 3: on a point of what advice do you have for 181 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 3: them as young members of the police force in trying 182 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 3: to do the right thing in their workplace. 183 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 4: Yes, I've been contacted by police officers, the ones who 184 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 4: actually find even conducting a strip search quite traumatic themselves. 185 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 4: There's a number of police officers out there that just 186 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 4: don't want to undertake these types of searches. What I 187 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 4: do say to police is that they need to turn 188 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 4: their mind to the legal thresholds. The legal threshold for 189 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 4: strip search is a really high threshold, and unfortunately, what 190 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 4: we're seeing on the ground is that police are failing 191 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 4: to meet that legal threshold. And that's not necessarily the 192 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 4: fault of the police officer on the ground. It may 193 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 4: be that you know that they're not getting the ideal 194 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 4: training or culture within the police force to support them 195 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 4: in their process. 196 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 3: Sam, I really appreciate your time. 197 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 4: Oh thanks so much for your interest in this topic area. 198 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 3: New South Wales Police recognize the issues in the audit 199 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 3: that we discussed in this episode and said it has 200 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 3: taken steps to ensure officers complete mandatory training before conducting searches. 201 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: And just a note on this episode today. We definitely 202 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 2: don't want you to use this episode as legal advice, 203 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: but if you do think it could be helpful for 204 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: your friends, why not share it with them to listen 205 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 2: to over the weekend. Sam and Zara will be back 206 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 2: again next week. Until then, have a great weekend.