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Speaker 1: Some of the world's most creative people seem to have

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Speaker 1: no trouble staying creative. Well, the rest of us find

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Speaker 1: it a constant challenge. But what if there were simple

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Speaker 1: things you could be doing to lift the load and

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Speaker 1: make being creative fun again. This is why I've asked

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Speaker 1: creative powerhouse Ben Surrey to return to How I Work.

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Speaker 1: Ben is the head chef and owner of multi award

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Speaker 1: winning Melbourne restaurant Attica. I guess you're not aware of Attica.

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Speaker 1: It's been featured several times in the World's fifty Best

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Speaker 1: Restaurants list and has been named the best restaurant in Australia.

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Speaker 1: He's also won the Age Good Food Guides Restaurant of

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Speaker 1: the Year three times, Chef of the Year twice, has

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Speaker 1: earned three Michelin stars, being featured on the Netflix series

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Speaker 1: Chef's Table, and Well. I could go on for a

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Speaker 1: long time with his list of accolades. But what you

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Speaker 1: might not have known is that Ben is also a

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Speaker 1: brilliant writer. His latest book, Uses for Obsession, is a

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Speaker 1: memoir of his experiences in the hospitality industry, and boy

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Speaker 1: is it an amazing read. In this episode, Ben reveals

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Speaker 1: how he knows a creative idea won't work, Why you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't get angry even when people steal your ideas, and

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Speaker 1: how to stay passionate about your creativity even when success

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Speaker 1: brings new challenges. Oh and he also shares a few

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Speaker 1: tips for us novice chefs. Welcome to How I Work,

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Speaker 1: a show about habits, rituals, and strategies for optimizing your day.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. Obviously, a lot of

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Speaker 1: Ben's creativity centers around making new dishes at Attica, so

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Speaker 1: naturally I wanted to know what his process is for

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Speaker 1: creating each new dish.

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Speaker 2: I guess we're trying to reach for something that has

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Speaker 2: not been done before most of the time, or we're

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Speaker 2: trying to invent something that people know and present it

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Speaker 2: in a brand new way. So the development of those

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Speaker 2: ideas and those dishes can take anything from probably a

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Speaker 2: month of intense work to six months and sometimes even

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Speaker 2: a year, depending on how big the project is. And

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Speaker 2: that's really taking a kind of a three hundred and

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Speaker 2: sixty degree approach to all of the elements of a dish,

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Speaker 2: not only the food and the recipe and the creativity,

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Speaker 2: but the plate, the physical aspects of the dish and

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Speaker 2: how it interacts with the room and the customer, and

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Speaker 2: then of course the story of it sometimes and how

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Speaker 2: the front of house, how the waiters will articulate it

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Speaker 2: to our guests, and how it all fits into sort

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Speaker 2: of the cultural context. Does it feel like something that

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Speaker 2: comes from our restaurant? Does it feel like something new?

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Speaker 1: Wow? That is so much to think about. Whereas me,

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Speaker 1: as a mere diner, I'm just like, what are the

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Speaker 1: ingredients that go into it? And how's it prepared? So

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Speaker 1: where does that start? Where does that idea or process

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Speaker 1: for a new dish start.

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Speaker 2: Well, it often starts with an ingredient, but often the

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Speaker 2: quest to find the ingredient is a pretty big part

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Speaker 2: of the process of the procurement and the sourcing of

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Speaker 2: that ingredient. Is it an ingredient indigenous to Australia, what's

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Speaker 2: its history, what's its context? Can we get it in

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Speaker 2: a quantity that we can use in a commercial way?

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Speaker 2: We cook fifty people a night for five nights a week,

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Speaker 2: so we need enough to sustain for several months. And

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Speaker 2: then it's really like, for me, it's probably about having

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Speaker 2: tiny little snippets of ideas and just seeing them through So,

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Speaker 2: for example, I just come back from Bologna, the home

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Speaker 2: of Lasagna and Bolonnais in Italy, and there I brought

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Speaker 2: a incredible brass pasta press, an extruder, a hand extruder.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like a cylindrical chee with a corkscrew

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Speaker 2: on the end, and it pushes the pasta dough through

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Speaker 2: the tube and then it comes out through a little

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Speaker 2: die made from brass. And I saw this beautiful handmade thing,

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Speaker 2: and I bought it from my home. But in my mind,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking, well, you know, at the restaurant right now, Yas,

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Speaker 2: who's one of our sous chefs who is from Japan,

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Speaker 2: has been working in his own time at the restaurant

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Speaker 2: on a sober noodle which is made from a native

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Speaker 2: Australian grain. And so it's not quite landing though, because

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Speaker 2: it doesn't quite feel like the Attica context. That's because

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Speaker 2: right now this dish is a straight sober noodle and

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Speaker 2: it feels very Japanese and it needs to feel like

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Speaker 2: something from Attica, and perhaps by pushing it through the

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Speaker 2: extruder into a macaroni shape, it will start to feel

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Speaker 2: like something that we could serve. Right now, it's just

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Speaker 2: a kind of a great concept, not quite a dish

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Speaker 2: that we could put on the menu. This has probably

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Speaker 2: been going on already for three months, and I can

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Speaker 2: see it last at least another month. But there's every

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Speaker 2: chance that all of this work can be just a

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Speaker 2: complete dead end.

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Speaker 1: How do you call it? When you're like, Okay, we've

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Speaker 1: got to a point and I think this is a failure.

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Speaker 2: I always know because there's a sort of euphoric moment

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Speaker 2: that comes at the end of this sort of journey

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Speaker 2: of discovery and of creativity, and it's this really peaked

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Speaker 2: moment in my life which is coming together of all

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Speaker 2: of our dreams and our hopes and our work. And

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Speaker 2: it's very much a team project with a lot of

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Speaker 2: people in the kitchen contributing, and we've been through potentially

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Speaker 2: one hundred iterations of a dish, but then with a

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Speaker 2: slight shift of the dynamic or a slight little change

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Speaker 2: in the recipe and the plating, it might come together.

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Speaker 2: And I always know that moment. I might be the

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Speaker 2: single person that knows that moment. That's maybe my job

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Speaker 2: to know that moment, and that moment is really where

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Speaker 2: the magic happens. I think for me is this feeling

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Speaker 2: of they're the dishes, it's everything. It's that your all

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Speaker 2: of your self into an item of food. It's delicious,

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Speaker 2: it looks beautiful, and the culmination of all of those

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Speaker 2: things is really a massive sort of moment. It's almost addictive,

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Speaker 2: and I just can't wait to kind of share that

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Speaker 2: with people. But I always kind of know when it's ready.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to put an exact line on why I

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Speaker 2: know it's ready. It's just my special skill. I suppose

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Speaker 2: it can never come on though, until I absolutely believe

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Speaker 2: that it's ready, because to do so would be the

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Speaker 2: service to the standard that we've built over nineteen years.

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Speaker 1: I think about all the work that goes into creating

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Speaker 1: a new dish, and that blew my mind. I had

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Speaker 1: literally no idea that was the process. And then I

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Speaker 1: think about, like something that your book opened my eyes

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Speaker 1: up to is just the amount of plagiarism that goes

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Speaker 1: on in your industry and all that work that goes

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Speaker 1: into something. And then you've got people potentially all around

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Speaker 1: the world just taking those ideas and claiming them as

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Speaker 1: their own. I want, don't know, because you feel like

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Speaker 1: the sort of person that doesn't hold on to this

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Speaker 1: stuff that doesn't hold on to potential anger. How do

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Speaker 1: you do that? Like, how do you let it go when?

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Speaker 2: Because I always feel like I have another idea coming so,

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Speaker 2: and I have a gill our Darling's policy of you know,

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Speaker 2: when a dish's life is done, whether that's three months

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Speaker 2: or six months, for a year, it will never come

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Speaker 2: back on with the menu. And what that does is

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Speaker 2: it just keeps us looking forward to the future constantly,

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Speaker 2: and it evolves the restaurant and the cooking in ways

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Speaker 2: that are not possible if you're sort of reciting your

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Speaker 2: repertoire of dishes that you keep coming back to each season,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of the classical way to run a

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Speaker 2: restaurant like house. But for me, I think when you're

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Speaker 2: young and you're starting out and you haven't made it,

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Speaker 2: perhaps whatever made it means, and people are copying your

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Speaker 2: ideas and any creative endeavor, I think it really hurts

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Speaker 2: and it's really hard to deal with. But I think

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Speaker 2: just by knowing that I will come up with another idea,

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Speaker 2: it eases the pain of seeing somebody you know, take

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Speaker 2: your really hard work frankly and pass it off as

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Speaker 2: if it was their own, which is a very different

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Speaker 2: thing than being honest with your inspiration and saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm really inspired by this culture or this person and

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Speaker 2: their work, and that's a really honorable thing to do.

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Speaker 2: I'd probably argue that there should be a little bit

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Speaker 2: more of that and creative endeavors in the world.

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Speaker 1: That would be nice. I guess, like earlier on in

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Speaker 1: your career, before you achieved the success that I think

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Speaker 1: you have objectively achieved now, was it harder to deal

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Speaker 1: with earlier on, when maybe you didn't have that belief

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Speaker 1: that there'll always be another great idea.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I remember happening on the first menu, and it

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Speaker 2: really stung because the person that borrowed that idea didn't

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Speaker 2: credit me with it, and they were really successful, and

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Speaker 2: we were really struggling financially and nobody cared about Attaka

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Speaker 2: on the brink of bankruptcy, and I was the sort

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Speaker 2: of solution to that, the potential solution, but I didn't

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Speaker 2: know that we were going to make it. It definitely

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Speaker 2: stung in those early years. So it's easier for me

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Speaker 2: to sit here now and say, you know, oh, like

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Speaker 2: I can kind of if I do see my work

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Speaker 2: and elsewhere, which I do. If I see it on Instagram,

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of like, well, you know, sale a V

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Speaker 2: and I know that I've got this other thing that

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Speaker 2: I'm working on. It's less easy to do that at

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Speaker 2: the beginning. For sure.

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Speaker 1: I would love to ask a bit more about your

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Speaker 1: creative process, because I feel like with anyone that is

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Speaker 1: in a creative field, there'll kind of be peaks and

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Speaker 1: troughs of creativity. And I'd love to know for you

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Speaker 1: what what if you observed around yourself and when you're

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Speaker 1: kind of at peak creativity and the ideas are just coming, like,

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Speaker 1: what are the things that you're doing or the I

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Speaker 1: don't know, the stimulus that you're inputting, what does that

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Speaker 1: look like?

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Speaker 2: I think for me it's essential, and I think this

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Speaker 2: is for any person that's had a small amount of

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Speaker 2: success in any kind of business or any walk of life,

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Speaker 2: and evocation is to keep continuing to return to that

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Speaker 2: original love and almost sort of in a way that

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Speaker 2: you know, the more successful you become, the more distracted

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Speaker 2: you can get. And we all know this, and the

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Speaker 2: more things that are demanding our attention but are actually

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Speaker 2: dragging us away from the thing that we did that

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Speaker 2: brought us the success in the first place. So for me,

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Speaker 2: it's about returning to cooking constantly and cookings what has

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Speaker 2: made me successful. And of course the demands on my

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Speaker 2: time are so many now, from podcasts like this, to

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Speaker 2: requirements of staff, to running a company with forty employees,

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Speaker 2: to all of the other things that I do in

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Speaker 2: my life a family. I need to keep returning to cooking.

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Speaker 2: So it's about finding new ways to return to cooking

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Speaker 2: and not just staying in the format, which was I

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Speaker 2: turn up at the restaurant nine am. By ten am,

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Speaker 2: I'm cooking. Now. Sometimes I can't cook at ten am.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's not till twelve. Sometimes that doesn't allow enough

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Speaker 2: time to see an idea through in the rest of

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Speaker 2: the day till five when the service starts in the restaurant.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes I need to work on the idea at home,

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Speaker 2: or the idea starts off in the home kitchen as

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Speaker 2: an idea for a dinner party, and then it eventually

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Speaker 2: makes its way onto the outer communue. So in the

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Speaker 2: last three years, that's sort of how I've evolved that process.

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Speaker 2: But I've realized fundamentally that thing that brings me the

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Speaker 2: most joy and the thing that I need to protect

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Speaker 2: is cooking and my ability to do it. And of

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Speaker 2: course I'm going to come back to that idea. The

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Speaker 2: more successful will you become, the harder it is to

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Speaker 2: do the thing that made you successful. So I always

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Speaker 2: remind myself of that, and I think it makes me

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Speaker 2: feel really good as well to be able to go

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Speaker 2: you know what.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 2: There's one hundred emails there, there's an Instagram post that

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Speaker 2: you've got to do, there's a meeting, somebody needs your

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Speaker 2: help in external of the restaurant. But I do need

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Speaker 2: to cook today and I need to make that time

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Speaker 2: and get organized to do it. Another thing that elks

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Speaker 2: me hugely is having a lot of interests and different

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Speaker 2: interests than your occupation or what your passion is, because

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Speaker 2: it opens you up to a different world. And so

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Speaker 2: whether it's travel or listening to music for me, or

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Speaker 2: skateboarding or art or whatever it might be, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: matter really, it's about having a different sort of experience

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Speaker 2: with a different group of people.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I don't know if you've heard the

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Speaker 1: theory around I shape versus T shaped people. It used

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Speaker 1: to be talking about quite a lot in innovation circles

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Speaker 1: where you've got your I shape people that are experts,

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Speaker 1: have deep expertise in one particular area, and then you've

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Speaker 1: got your T shaped people that have that deep expertise,

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Speaker 1: but then they've also got the top of the tea

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Speaker 1: where they've got that breadth of different interests outside of

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Speaker 1: that main interest. And when I was and you know,

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Speaker 1: the research would suggest that T shaped people are quite

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Speaker 1: a bit more creative than I shaped people, which kind

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Speaker 1: of makes sense. And when I was reading Uses for

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Speaker 1: Obsession and just learning about all these different areas that

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Speaker 1: you've gone so deep in, it's like, no one day,

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Speaker 1: you're so incredibly creative. I do want to ask about

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Speaker 1: music because that's clearly a passion and I love that

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Speaker 1: you actually created Spotify and playlists that go with the book.

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Speaker 1: That's awesome. How does music help with your creativity? And

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Speaker 1: what I mean by that, Like, you know, I've spoken

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Speaker 1: to various creative people around how they'll use music to

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Speaker 1: get in a certain mood for whatever it is they're

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Speaker 1: trying to create. How does it help, I guess, boost

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Speaker 1: your creativity when it comes to cooking.

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Speaker 2: Music's kind of everything. You know, It's the soundtrack for

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Speaker 2: my life and I'll soundtrack my life, and almost every

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Speaker 2: moment always to music in the kitchen as well. It's

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Speaker 2: a way that traditionally chefs have sort of lifted their

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Speaker 2: energy at the end of the day, right before service.

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Speaker 2: I write about that experience. It's almost like a sporting

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Speaker 2: team in the locker room before going out into the perch.

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Speaker 2: The last hour before the restaurant opens, we amplify ourselves

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Speaker 2: as we set up frantically for the first guest arriving

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Speaker 2: at six o'clock with music, sometimes quite intense music, very

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Speaker 2: loud music. It's something that happens with or without me,

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Speaker 2: you know, in fact, mostly without me. You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: mostly an observer to the kitchen using this as a

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Speaker 2: mechanism to get themselves in the right headspace. So at Ataka,

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Speaker 2: there's you know, a joke that it has the most

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Speaker 2: stereos of any restaurant in the world. Is pretty much

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Speaker 2: a stereo in every room, so every person in the

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Speaker 2: organization can be listening to music if they want to.

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Speaker 2: You know, I just can't imagine creating without it, really,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think it's such a useful tool, and

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Speaker 2: I always feel so indebted to artists. Another sort of

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Speaker 2: very cool kind of fact in restaurants is that, especially

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Speaker 2: creative restaurants, it attracts a lot of musicians, and so

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Speaker 2: we get to serve and cook for musicians and sometimes

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Speaker 2: become friends with them, especially touring musicians, and that's such

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Speaker 2: a beautiful thing. I would say that sometimes it creates

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Speaker 2: a bit of nervousness with the playlist in terms of

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Speaker 2: will they like it? And in fact, sometimes you know,

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Speaker 2: famous musicians come and their music might be on the playlist,

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Speaker 2: and I almost feel bad about that because I don't

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Speaker 2: want to make them feel uncomfortable. But it's the greatest pleasure,

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Speaker 2: you know. I think it's such a gift music.

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Speaker 1: Did you listen to a song on the way here

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Speaker 1: to prepare for this podcast in your jet lagged stage?

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Speaker 2: Actually, I've been all over the shop today, so I

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Speaker 2: wasn't very organized. I was listening to an interviewer with

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Speaker 2: a skateboarder. That was what I was doing.

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Speaker 1: We will be back with Ben soon, and when we return,

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Speaker 1: we'll be discussing the ways he uses creativity to cultivate

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Speaker 1: adult friendships and why he being self doubt is a

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Speaker 1: tool and not a weakness. If you're looking for more

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Speaker 1: tips to improve the way you work can Live. I

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Speaker 1: write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered

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Speaker 1: that have helped me personally. You can sign up for

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Speaker 1: that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about self doubt because you write about

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Speaker 1: that quite a lot, and you've had many moments of

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Speaker 1: self doubt, and you talk about them just very honestly

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Speaker 1: and with a lot of humility, and I would love

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Speaker 1: to know what if you learnt about how to overcome

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Speaker 1: that in moments where you really need to A very.

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Speaker 2: Quiet person, introverted and it wouldn't necessarily seem that way,

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Speaker 2: but especially in my earlier years, and always preferred to

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Speaker 2: let my physical work all of the talking. And I've

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Speaker 2: had to learn to find my own voice, you know,

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Speaker 2: which is part of overcoming self doubt for me to

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Speaker 2: learn to be a better communicator, to actually be able

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Speaker 2: to articulate how I feel about things and about the world.

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Speaker 2: But in terms of like self doubt, I find that

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Speaker 2: there's been quite a few moments in my career and

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Speaker 2: at Attica where it seemed to the outside world that

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Speaker 2: the idea is outlandish, you know, whatever creative idea it

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Speaker 2: might be, and a perfect one would be you know,

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Speaker 2: at the end of the Lockdown's Attica, we could only

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Speaker 2: open the restaurant to a very limited capacity and we

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Speaker 2: were going to go broke, so we had to open

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Speaker 2: a big outdoor restaurant in the arablly called Attica Summer Camp.

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Speaker 2: And when I sort of proposed that idea, nobody accept

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Speaker 2: My wife Kylie and our architect Eva thought that that

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Speaker 2: was a good idea. In fact, people were ringing to

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Speaker 2: tell me out of concern for me, that we would

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Speaker 2: probably fail if we did that, but there was just

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Speaker 2: something in me that I just had to do it.

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Speaker 2: I thought that it was the way I could see.

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Speaker 2: It turned out to be this amazing thing. But I

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Speaker 2: think sometimes when you if you're doing something different and

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Speaker 2: changing something, you know, people don't love change. And so

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Speaker 2: probably talking about more other people's doubt in this, but

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Speaker 2: also my own self doubt, which was fueled by well

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Speaker 2: intentioned friends suggesting that I not do it, But ultimately

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Speaker 2: I just felt like it was something that I had

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Speaker 2: to do. I think there's always a bit of internal

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Speaker 2: self doubt, and I think that's healthy. I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: reason questioning within yourself of your ideas and not just

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Speaker 2: sort of blindly going into things to change them is important.

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Speaker 2: So I don't necessarily see self doubt as a negative thing.

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Speaker 2: I think it needs to be controlled like anxiety does.

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Speaker 2: I would probably say to younger people listening or people

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Speaker 2: are starting off on a journey in a new direction,

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Speaker 2: that it gets easier as time goes on and you

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Speaker 2: can kind of build on its success or a failure

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Speaker 2: for the next time. And perhaps that for me, that

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Speaker 2: self doubt's got a little easier to beer, you know,

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Speaker 2: But sometimes you just have to back yourself, you know.

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Speaker 2: I think as well, like despite all of your fears,

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Speaker 2: And there's been defferentely in moments where that's been true.

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Speaker 2: And probably the peak one was going from being an

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Speaker 2: employee in a restaurant for being the first time owner.

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Speaker 2: I was filled with self doubt. I didn't think it

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Speaker 2: was my place to own a restaurant. And that moment

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Speaker 2: was like, I was thirty eight, thirty nine, are you

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Speaker 2: ever going to do this? You know, are you ever

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Speaker 2: going to do this? And I laid everything on the

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Speaker 2: line a bit, my house, on my capacity to run

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Speaker 2: a restaurant. I'm glad I did.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that's a good segue in terms of

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Speaker 1: thinking about the courage that some of those decisions took

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Speaker 1: and something that struck me in terms of I imagine probably

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Speaker 1: what has received the most attention in your book is

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Speaker 1: your criticism of food critics and the awards industry. And

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Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about the content of that

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Speaker 1: chapter because people, quite frankly, can just read the book

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Speaker 1: or listen to other interviews that you've done. But I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about why now and how did you,

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Speaker 1: I guess, build up the courage. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that's the right phrase to do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, it took a lot of courage. So why

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Speaker 2: I had a lot of fear? I think because to

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Speaker 2: continue to sort of tell a lie about it felt

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Speaker 2: worse than the risk of actually bringing it to light.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense? You know that the idea that

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Speaker 2: I will pretend like everything is fine when really it's not.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've always tried to be honest about things,

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Speaker 2: you know, because I really feel like glossing over the

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Speaker 2: harder things, whether that be with me health, or whether

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Speaker 2: that be the way that the restaurant's run or a

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Speaker 2: creative process. I felt like glossing over that stuff is

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Speaker 2: not helpful to other people, especially people who follow you

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Speaker 2: and look up to you. And so I've felt a

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Speaker 2: sense of responsibility to a broader community into my industry.

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Speaker 2: And I also think that if you see something bad

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Speaker 2: happening and you walk pasted it, it's not good for

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Speaker 2: the victims of that bad thing that's happening, but it's

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Speaker 2: certainly not good for the person that walks past it.

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Speaker 2: You know. I actually in some ways that might affect

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Speaker 2: them even more. And so you know selfishly as well,

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Speaker 2: like if I don't say this, when will be my

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Speaker 2: next opportunity. It's funny because I never really had a

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Speaker 2: plan to say any of these things that I wrote about.

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Speaker 2: I actually wrote them at the beginning of it. I

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Speaker 2: wrote a mind map on the wall of maybe over

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Speaker 2: a hundred ideas, which I felt fabulous about it, and

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Speaker 2: then I didn't really write about any of them. And

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Speaker 2: I think there's just something about reacting to how you're

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Speaker 2: feeling and what's going on in writing that is really

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Speaker 2: sparent and really sort of this rule. I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: the point of writing for me is to tell the truth.

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Speaker 2: That's what writing deserves, and I wanted to honor that

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Speaker 2: truth in my writing, and I just several times in

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Speaker 2: the book, I just felt like, you know what, this

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Speaker 2: is not easy to write, This is scary, This scares

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Speaker 2: me what I've written, This scares my wife Kylie. But ultimately,

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Speaker 2: what I just kept coming back to was I can't

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Speaker 2: not say it.

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Speaker 1: What feedback or advice did you get from Kylie on this?

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Speaker 2: A fair bit of fear and then also Kylie's really determined,

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Speaker 2: Kylie is brave, but that changed across the time. So

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Speaker 2: it's probably like a year between writing some of these

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Speaker 2: meaty things and a year between them being published, or

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Speaker 2: even six months before I decided that I would allow

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Speaker 2: them to be published. And in that time, you know,

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Speaker 2: we were kind of like yo yo's, you know, like

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Speaker 2: we're really up and down on it. Some days, you know,

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Speaker 2: you'd be feeling yeah, you know, like really empowered and

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Speaker 2: bold and like yeah, you know, we need to say that,

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Speaker 2: and then other times you'd be like quite and be like, oh,

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Speaker 2: but what happens if we lose everything? What will people

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Speaker 2: do to us? You know? And so there's like there's

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Speaker 2: fair but ultimately, I guess kind of what I felt

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Speaker 2: really strongly at the end of it, and so did

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Speaker 2: Kylie were really aligned on this, and we had to

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Speaker 2: be because this is her future as well. She didn't

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Speaker 2: write this, but like it's her company too. Was that

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Speaker 2: if we couldn't say these things and run the restaurant,

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Speaker 2: then we'd find that the running the restaurant wasn't worth

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Speaker 2: it anymore.

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Speaker 1: How does it feel now to be on the other

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Speaker 1: side that it's all out there, very public in terms

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Speaker 1: of your views and the award system.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really interesting, you know. I guess it's as expected,

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Speaker 2: you know. For me, I could just come back to

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Speaker 2: people don't like change very much, you know, and critics

434
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 2: hate to be challenged. They see their workers. It's a

435
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 2: one way street. And the irony of it's not lost

436
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 2: on me of course either. But I would say that

437
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 2: the absolute help pouring of people from my industry and

438
00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 2: from other creative industries, hundreds and hundreds of messages, has

439
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 2: just been incredibly humbling and also totally heartbreaking. You can't

440
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 2: believe the response. So I could never have seen this.

441
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: I knew my own experience, of the experience of my

442
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 2: own team, and the experience of many close friends in

443
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 2: our industry, and we were pretty aligned on it. Whether

444
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 2: or not we'll speak out about it publicly or not.

445
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 2: I didn't expect the reaction that it got like that

446
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 2: positive reaction was just staggering.

447
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 1: I'm very happy to hear that, and I'm not surprised.

448
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: I want to talk about your role as a business owner,

449
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 1: and one of the things that struck me into in

450
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: terms of like how you see your role, you almost

451
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: don't see yourself as trying to be the best in

452
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: the restaurant industry. You're trying to be the best small

453
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: business owner in the world. And I love that distinction,

454
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: and I would love to know what are some of

455
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 1: the most important things that other small business owners or

456
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: business owners in any industry could take from how you

457
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,360
Speaker 1: do things at Attica.

458
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: I think like most of the time, when I see

459
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: somebody going wrong in business, it's because they've taken their

460
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 2: focus off the people. You know, it's always about the people,

461
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 2: and at every part of it is about the people.

462
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 2: Whether or not you make a profit or not, or

463
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: whether or not you have high levels of customer satisfaction

464
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 2: or not, or whether you have high levels of employee satisfaction,

465
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 2: it's all going to come back to the people and

466
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 2: how the people feel about the work and how they

467
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: feel about the way that you treat them in the

468
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: culture that you've built, and also, most importantly, how the

469
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: leader is behaving and the standard that they're setting, not

470
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 2: just the standard they're asking for, but the standard that

471
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 2: they're laying out for themselves first and foremost. And there's

472
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 2: that old classic saying the fish rots from the head.

473
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 2: It could not be more true when applied to business.

474
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: And so everything starts from there, you know, really it does.

475
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: And so I think we have a tendency in business

476
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 2: and small business and all kinds of businesses to over

477
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,120
Speaker 2: complicate everything. And what I've experienced is it's much simpler

478
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 2: than that. Often managing people is much simpler than that.

479
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 2: You know, it comes down to some basic fundamentals of

480
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 2: common decency and fairness. And I guess you know, I'm

481
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 2: really speaking on the side of owners here. You know

482
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 2: that it needs to be an equitable agreement where both

483
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 2: the business and the employee are winning. And I think

484
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,120
Speaker 2: if you can't kind of get to that in business,

485
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: then you have to really question your reasons for doing it.

486
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 2: For me, my reason for doing it is for people.

487
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 2: It's not for profit. It needs to be profitable, but

488
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 2: I think that I feel pretty strongly that by doing

489
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: things the right way or trying to do them the

490
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: right way, that the profit side of it, as long

491
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: as you have good fundamentals and business and by that

492
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 2: I mean good accounting, good bookkeeping, that the profits will

493
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 2: generally take care of themselves. But the thing that's often

494
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 2: missed is the sort of human element of an organization.

495
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: And you see this in all different types of businesses.

496
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: But there's just something about a team that is well

497
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 2: cared for, that is respected, that respects the company, that

498
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 2: it's the sort of fourth dimension that is not really

499
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 2: about money. It's hard to put a sort of a

500
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: finger on exactly that. You just go into a business

501
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 2: and you feel it, and it's genuine engagement with the work.

502
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 2: It's real care and pride in the establishment that the

503
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 2: people are working for. I can always see it. I

504
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: just had it in Paris at a tiny little crapery

505
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 2: restaurant called Crapery Little Raise in Paris. It's the most amazing,

506
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: tiny little restaurant where the crape was ten dollars and

507
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: it was so beautiful. But it wasn't just the crape.

508
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 2: It was the energy, the humility, the kindness of the

509
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 2: people behind it. It's the most successful crape restaurant in Paris,

510
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 2: but it doesn't carry itself like it. It carries itself

511
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 2: with dig and grace, and it made it so much

512
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: more magical. It transformed it from a crepe to something extra.

513
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: And I'm still thinking about it, and I suppose that's

514
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 2: what I'm getting at, is that there's a lot of

515
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: crape restaurants in Paris and they cook very good crapes,

516
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 2: but Little Brays does something else as well as make

517
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: a crape, you know, And I believe, I don't know

518
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 2: the business, but I believe it's connected to the leadership

519
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 2: and that it seemed like a really great place to work.

520
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: You're describing that reminds me of one of your comments

521
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 1: around food critics and the ones that come into a

522
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: restaurant and all they do is look at their food.

523
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: They don't look at the environment, the atmosphere, the people

524
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 1: around them, and just how they're missing so much of

525
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: what has been curated for them.

526
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 2: That's very common. Unfortunately. Yeah, they feel like they can't

527
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 2: engage with it because on a real deep level, because

528
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: a deep customer engages an enthusiasts, they don't like withhold

529
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: their excitement, and that is how you get more as

530
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 2: a customer too, because especially from a front of house team,

531
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: because you know, waiters are there to serve you and

532
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: they really rely on the exchange of human energy, and

533
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: so when that's not happening, it's harder for a weater

534
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 2: to do their job. And it's of course incredibly emotionally

535
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: draining undertaking, and the weight is constantly asking is the

536
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 2: customer happy? What can I do to make the customer happier?

537
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 2: If the customer is happier, and it sort of is

538
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 2: expressing that it becomes much easier for the waiter if

539
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 2: somebody's cold. The weights trying to change tack and trying

540
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: to you know, it's a really intellectual undertaking being a

541
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: great waiter, and so if you don't get anything, you

542
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 2: don't know if the persons enjoying it, and so you're

543
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: trying to maybe improve the experience or tailor it. And

544
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: we have to do this table by table anyway regardless,

545
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: but ultimately you're just shooting yourself in the foot because

546
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 2: you know, as I right, the waiter is your personal

547
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: hedonistic agent for the evening, and who would do anything

548
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: to compromise the waiter. You know, waters are awesome.

549
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: I do want to ask about cooking, but first before

550
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: I do that, I want to ask about friendship. Something

551
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: that really shone through in your book and in interviews

552
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: where i've heard you is that you take friendships really,

553
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: really seriously. And you're forty seven now. I think, and

554
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: often what happens with adults, and particularly male adults, is

555
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: that the older thing you get, the less friends you have,

556
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: and the less friendships you cultivate. And I feel like

557
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: it seems like in reading the book, in the very

558
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: long list, in the acknowledgment, that you've kind of done

559
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: the opposite. And I imagine it's probably quite unconscious, but

560
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could consciously unpack that, what

561
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: do you do ben to cultivate friendships as an adult.

562
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: I've always tried to be a good friend. I don't

563
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 2: think I've always succeeded in that, especially as a younger person,

564
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: because maybe my expectationtions were too high of people, or

565
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: I was choosing friendships where I was it wasn't equitable,

566
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: where I was putting too much into it. And as

567
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: I've gotten older, I've gotten much better at choosing friends

568
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 2: who want to be friends. I'm definitely drawn to people

569
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: who are a little I don't know if mad's the

570
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: right word, but are a little different, you know, who

571
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: turn stones. You know. I'm definitely drawn to people who

572
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: are unusual. But also I'm really drawn to people who

573
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 2: are kind and people who communicate. And I love friendships

574
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: where I'm not the only one who is the one

575
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: to keep in touch. One thing I really believe in

576
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 2: friendships is if I say that I'll do something, I

577
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: will do it. I will always do it. And I

578
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: think my friends know that. But I think one of

579
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 2: the things I love most about friendship is the ability

580
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: to be generous to people, and something that I really adore.

581
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: As a child, I always loved giving gifts. It was

582
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 2: much more than received them, and we didn't have a

583
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: lot of money, but I would save up my pocket

584
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: money or earn money by doing odd jobs and spend

585
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: it almost all of it at Christmas time and I

586
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 2: would go into the town that we lived by and

587
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: spend just all this time choosing presents for my sisters

588
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,959
Speaker 2: and my mum and dad. And in a lot of ways,

589
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: that's how I am with friends, not with gifts, but

590
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: with experiences. So maybe a month ago, I went on

591
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 2: this boat trip up to the Arrow. It's just like

592
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: a little higher boat that you hire for like sixty

593
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: bucks with my daughter and my wife, and we had

594
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 2: a lovely day. And I thought, oh, you know, I

595
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: would have written boats in the raw off of something

596
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 2: tackier tourist thing. But then when I was seeing the

597
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 2: city for the first time from a boat, it's like,

598
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: this is cool, and so in that moment I had

599
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: but what if I got one of these boats and

600
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: I packed it. I think there's eleven people can fill

601
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: in this boat. And then I did a tasting menu

602
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: on the boat, ten courses that are all preprepared kind

603
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 2: of and I could just take this big chili bin

604
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: and serve them. But what if I got this group

605
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 2: of friends together and I just told them to meet

606
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 2: me at the room a bank. They had no idea

607
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: what was going to happen. And so that's what I did,

608
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: like two or three weeks ago. And it's just so silly.

609
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: It's effefesent. And I think that in friendship, but in life,

610
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 2: silliness is really underrated. Have such serious lives, you know,

611
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: and our professions are so serious and so important. To us.

612
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: But a bit of silliness I think goes a long

613
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: way because it just sort of lightens everything.

614
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: I love that. Let's talk cooking. I feel like I'm

615
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: not one of those podcasters that does the whole rapid

616
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: fire questions, but I've got quite a few.

617
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, I'll try to limit them.

618
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: To try to limit it, okay, in no particular order.

619
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,959
Speaker 1: Kids lunches, what are your hacks?

620
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: Always healthy? I mean, I think you know, if you're

621
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 2: under the pump, we'll go and buy a rice paper

622
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: roll for the kids. That's maybe one hack. Always ask

623
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 2: them what they want. I'm onto my last kid. Two

624
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: kids have progressed out of school lunches, so I'm onto

625
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: my last. She's also our best eating so kind of

626
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: she's easy. Anything goes. Always a piece of fruit, always

627
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 2: a vegetable.

628
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: If we're not getting rice paper rolls. What's a good, quick,

629
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: healthy lunch.

630
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 2: Well, fortunately, this child like salad a lot, so some

631
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: lettuce in the garden, maybe some left avorast chicken. I

632
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: like to make a caesar salad dressing from not based

633
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: on mayonnaise, but based on yogurt, which is much healthier

634
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: than mayonnaise. So it's essentially just like making a seas

635
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: salad dressing, but with no mayonnaise. And I've encouraged my

636
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: children to make their own school lunches. I'll say, hey,

637
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: this is kind of what's there, what's to use? And

638
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 2: they've always made a really great decisions. So I think

639
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: just engaging kids with school lunches is important. It's what

640
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 2: you want it. You want them to eat it. You

641
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: don't want to throw it out, but teen like they

642
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: ate it nice.

643
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: What simple thing could the average person do that would

644
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: make a big difference to their results in the kitchen?

645
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 2: I would say having better quality pots and hands. Everything

646
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: cooks better in a better pan, and not everybody can

647
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: afford that, So my advice would be to build up

648
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 2: your collection of pots and pans slowly. I've built up

649
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: my pots pans in my kitchen across a decade and

650
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 2: they do make a real difference to cooking. Other than that,

651
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: I would say a sharp knife, a block of good

652
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: quality Italian parmesan. What else? Always garlic, Always have garlic,

653
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 2: Just some simple staples. A lemon is always essential, both

654
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,399
Speaker 2: for the zest and the juice. Coffee. I can't live

655
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: without coffee, Yeah, I don't know.

656
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: Okay, pots and pans, let's just focus in on that.

657
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: If I were going to start tomorrow, what would be

658
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: the first pot or pan that you recommend that I buy?

659
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: And this isn't fi. I've got a fry pan that

660
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: we use a lot, and my partner and I are

661
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 1: just a bit worried about the fact that it's nonstick.

662
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: Yeah no good, yeah, yeah.

663
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: No tearflong. You don't want a tearflong pan. That's for

664
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 2: sure that that's going to end up in your system.

665
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 2: It's microplastics and that's that's terrible for the environment. But

666
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: there are good alternatives. I have a ceramic stick pan,

667
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 2: which is a permanent coating that doesn't come off. It's

668
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: a German made pan. It's amazing. Actually it's been quite

669
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 2: life changing.

670
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 1: What brand is it.

671
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 2: I'm not ambassador for it or anything, but at WO

672
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 2: L L VOLE I think it's called it's very very good.

673
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: I've got a couple of well pans.

674
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 2: Let you go, okay, well, you're on the wrong right track.

675
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: Don't overheat them. They can't take the same kind of

676
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 2: heat that is stainless or a cast iron pan can take.

677
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: What is the most underrated cooking utensil.

678
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 2: A flat bladed wooden spoon would be my go to

679
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: kind of proper utensil. Around edged wooden spoon is a

680
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 2: hopeless device. You should get rid of that. Finding a

681
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 2: flat bladed wooden spoon. It just gives you much more

682
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: surface contact than the pan. Whatever you're making, whether it

683
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 2: be a bolonnaise or a cheese sauce or a curry.

684
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 2: When you're braising something in a pot, you need to

685
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: stir it as little as you can, and so a

686
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 2: flat bladed wooden spoon has you know, maybe twenty times

687
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 2: a surface contact of around bladed wooden spoon. So a

688
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: good flat bladed wooden spoon is a good tool. And

689
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: microplane greater is also a very useful thing. But a

690
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: decent box grader is a really great tool. So you

691
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 2: can do a variety of different jobs on a box grader.

692
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: Awesome. What's the best thing to make in an air fryer?

693
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 2: Chicken?

694
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me about that, Like, how do you prep

695
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: the chicken?

696
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 2: Okay, so I think chicken thigh is best. Boneless chicken thigh.

697
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 2: And my wife is the queen of the air fryer,

698
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 2: and she's converted me to it and gained no affiliation.

699
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: But we have a Phillips one. I like it very much.

700
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: I thought that their frys were absolutely rubbish, and this

701
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: is always how it goes in our house. Kylie suggests

702
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: an appliance, so I go, oh my god, no, we've

703
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: got an oven. What do we need in the air

704
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 2: fry for? But there's just an intensity to the air

705
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 2: fry that I like. And chicken thigh, which is kind

706
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 2: of a robust cut of chicken. You know, she marinates

707
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: in a bit of olive oil, a bit of garlic,

708
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: maybe a bit of Dijon mustard, maybe a bit of

709
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,479
Speaker 2: lemon salt and black pepper, and then she just lays

710
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 2: it on the rack and air fry and cooks it

711
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: hard and it gets really caramelized and really tasty. So

712
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 2: I think that's the best thing I've had in the

713
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 2: air fry. But I also like to sort of do

714
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 2: I hate the word meal prep. I think that's such

715
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 2: a disgusting term for like cooking food. But let's say

716
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: that I'm going to use it in this context. If

717
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: I'm making I like to maybe chop up some sweet

718
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: potatoes and cope them with a little bit of olive

719
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 2: oil eight very healthy and some salt pepper and lay

720
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: them in a single layer on the air fry and

721
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: then it's about twelve minutes in the air fry on

722
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: the hottest temperature, and then that's great for the base

723
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: of a salad the next day. So I think it's

724
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 2: a really helpful tool.

725
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 1: I just want to say your observation that you that

726
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: you shared in the book around the bottom of the

727
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: apple tasting better than the top of the apple. I

728
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: don't have a question around it. I just thought that

729
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: is very interesting.

730
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 2: Do you agree with it?

731
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: I'm not a big apple eater.

732
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 2: Would Okay, Well, the next time you do it, an

733
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 2: apple long and you to pay attention and see if

734
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 2: you if you agree on that.

735
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: It's on my to do list.

736
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, great, Life's greatest questions.

737
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,399
Speaker 1: Okay, my partner Neo, loves cooking. If if you were

738
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: to suggest a Christmas gift for someone that loves cooking,

739
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: what would you suggest.

740
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I've got to say that a solid brass

741
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 2: hand cranked pasta excruder from Bologna would be a pretty

742
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: great present for somebody. A really good pepper mial I

743
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,760
Speaker 2: like the ones with the French internal mechanisms like Burschow

744
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: or Marlowe.

745
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: You're right about how sourcing good ingredients is really I

746
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: guess the number one it is brul, isn't it. How

747
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,479
Speaker 1: do you know where to get good ingredients from?

748
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a learned skill, you know. I

749
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 2: think that that comes from repetition and from experience and

750
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 2: just from like really simple like from eating, from buying.

751
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: Sometimes side by side comparisons are very powerful, and that's

752
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 2: something that professionals like I do. But I think if

753
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 2: something tastes delicious, it's good, you know. I think if

754
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 2: you buy it from somebody that you can have a

755
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 2: conversation with, it's essential, like going to a butcher in

756
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 2: a market. If you have that ability and be able

757
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 2: to talk about where that food comes from and how

758
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: it was produced, that's almost going to guarantee that it's good,

759
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 2: you know. I guess I have like a repertoire of

760
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: ingredients that I trust, farmers that I trust, and I've

761
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: just built that up from experimenting a little bit.

762
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: Amazing. This is great. I'm going to do some shopping

763
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: after this interview. Ben, thank you so much for your time.

764
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 1: I've so loved this chat. And I got to say

765
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: I loved researching for this interview so much. It's been

766
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: great to have you back on How I Work. So

767
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: thank you for coming in jet lag and all really

768
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: much and on again.

769
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 2: It's real pleasure.

770
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: I hope you loved this chat with Ben as much

771
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: as I did, and as well as leaving this interview

772
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: personally feeling very inspired. I also can't wait to try

773
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: some of his cooking tips at home. If you want

774
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: to learn more about Ben, I highly recommend reading his

775
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 1: latest book, Uses for Obsession, which we'll link to in

776
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: the show notes, or dining at Attica the next time

777
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 1: you're in Melbourne. If you like today's show, make sure

778
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: you get follow on your podcast app to be alerted

779
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: when new episodes drop. How I Work was recorded on

780
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: the traditional land of the Warrangery People, part of the

781
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: cool And Nation