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Speaker 1: Already and this this is the Daily This is the

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Speaker 1: Daily OS. Oh now it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday,

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Speaker 2: the sixth of October. I'm Emma Gillespie and we are

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Speaker 2: bringing you something a little bit different today. I want

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Speaker 2: to introduce you to Australia's first female astronaut, Katherine Bennell Peg.

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Speaker 1: Most astronauts of my era dream of the moon, right,

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Speaker 1: like to be able to step out onto the surface

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Speaker 1: of the Moon and make these discoveries and look back

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Speaker 1: at her. Can you imagine stepping out of that hat

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Speaker 1: and looking up.

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Speaker 2: Catherine made history in twenty twenty three when she was

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Speaker 2: selected to join a training program with the European Space Agency,

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Speaker 2: eventually graduating as the first Australian woman to become a

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Speaker 2: qualified astronaut. Her journey is pretty extraordinary, from studying engineering

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Speaker 2: to working on space missions and training for the possibility

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Speaker 2: of going to space herself someday. I spoke to Catherine

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Speaker 2: all about what training to become an astronaut actually involves,

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Speaker 2: what excites her and what she hopes Australia's role in

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Speaker 2: space will look like in the years to come. Welcome

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Speaker 2: to the podcast. Catherine, Thank you for chatting to us today.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me on. It's my pleasure.

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Speaker 2: Australia's first female astronaut a pretty cool title, but one

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Speaker 2: that I'm sure comes after many, many years of hard work.

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Speaker 2: When was the moment you realized you wanted to become

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Speaker 2: an astronaut And how do you even begin to pursue

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Speaker 2: a dream like that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, for me, becoming an astronaut is definitely the

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Speaker 1: combination of a childhood dream. I grew up in Curley

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Speaker 1: on the northern Beaches of Sydney, where I remember thinking

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Speaker 1: the sky was full of stars and I used to

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Speaker 1: like lying on the grass in my back garden getting

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Speaker 1: bindies or off by pajamas, looking up at the sky.

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Speaker 1: And when my mum told me that some of those

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Speaker 1: stars were entire planets that no one had ever visited before,

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Speaker 1: I just thought that would be such an adventure. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's that same feeling kids have when they

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Speaker 1: want to look under a rock to see if they's

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Speaker 1: a bug, or climb a tree because it's there and

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Speaker 1: then look out at the view. It's that feeling that's

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Speaker 1: driven humans to want to explore our world and understand

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Speaker 1: it better, and also to explore and understand space. But

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Speaker 1: as I grew up it evolved into not just curiosity

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Speaker 1: and adventure, but wanting to make concrete steps forward in

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Speaker 1: science and knowledge and discovery. I thought that would be

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Speaker 1: really exciting, and I love sports and outdoor activities and

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Speaker 1: that just seemed like a wonderful combination. And then when

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Speaker 1: I was at high school, my school said, well what

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Speaker 1: do you want to be when you grew up? And

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Speaker 1: I said, well, an astronaut. You know what else is there?

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Speaker 1: So I only gave them one choice, and instead of,

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Speaker 1: you know, belittling me or making fun of me, they

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Speaker 1: just said, we'll go cigarette what that would really take,

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Speaker 1: probably hoping i'd some sense. But what I learned is that, yes,

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Speaker 1: of course it's unlikely Australia didn't even have a space

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Speaker 1: agency right, let alone an astronaut program. But I saw

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Speaker 1: that you need a first career before you can even

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Speaker 1: apply to be an astronaut. You can be a scientist,

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Speaker 1: you can be an engineer, you can be a pilot,

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Speaker 1: you can be a medical doctor, or combinations of those things.

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Speaker 1: You should be doing expeditions to Antarctica, or in the military,

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Speaker 1: or in scientific research vessel or charity work. You should

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Speaker 1: have operational skills like fying or scuba diving or skydiving.

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Speaker 1: You should have lived internationally and speak other languages, and

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Speaker 1: you should be fit and healthy and a few other things.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, well, what's the downside, you know, let's

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Speaker 1: give it a cratch. Someone's going to do that job.

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Speaker 1: And the pursuit of that job sounded fun, and you

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Speaker 1: have a first career anyway, it's just the cherry on

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Speaker 1: the top of that. So I decided to try and

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Speaker 1: pursue being a pilot in the Air Force. But in

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Speaker 1: the end that process was taking some time. I was

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Speaker 1: medically postponed and later that was fortunately found out not

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Speaker 1: to be a problem. But in the meantime I chose

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Speaker 1: to pursue space engineering with a double degree in physics,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't even know what engineering was. I just

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Speaker 1: went for it because it had the word space in

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Speaker 1: the title. And I'm so glad I did, because becoming

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Speaker 1: an engineer has led me to travel and be all

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Speaker 1: over the world working on some of the most exciting

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Speaker 1: missions I could have ever hoped for, and also then

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Speaker 1: bringing me back home to Australia. So now I also

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Speaker 1: value being an astronaut for what I know space does

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Speaker 1: for society. We rely on it for new medicines and

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Speaker 1: for our to look after our environment and understand it,

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Speaker 1: and also for the impact it can have on a

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Speaker 1: country in raising the level of aspiration for people, especially

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Speaker 1: young people. So it's evolving, but it's stronger than ever.

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Speaker 1: Why I want to be an astronaut and becoming an

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Speaker 1: astronaut is truly just the beginning.

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Speaker 2: I think it says a lot to your character that

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Speaker 2: that broad enormous remit of kind of things that you'd

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Speaker 2: need to tick off, that massive life list of prerequisites,

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Speaker 2: that you saw that as this exciting opportunity and you

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Speaker 2: weren't scared away. Obviously, growing up you wouldn't have had

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Speaker 2: a role model in the form of a woman pioneering

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Speaker 2: in this way, in this space here in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Did that deter you at all?

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Speaker 2: Was that something that you were aware of or were

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Speaker 2: you so determined to see this dream through that that

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Speaker 2: was kind of irrelevant.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've never really been someone that ascribes to hero worship.

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Speaker 1: No one's perfect and everyone's different and we should all

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Speaker 1: write our own stories. But certainly there were people that

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Speaker 1: inspired me I had books about women who were explorers,

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Speaker 1: and I knew about Sally Right and other women who

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Speaker 1: had been astronauts. I was also at an all girls

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Speaker 1: high school, which for me meant that I never really

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Speaker 1: considered whether I was good enough because other girl or not.

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Speaker 1: I knew it was some things that not many girls did,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't think it affected performance, because it quite

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Speaker 1: frankly doesn't, even if it's still in the minority. So

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Speaker 1: I was fortunate that by the time I got into

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Speaker 1: a male dominated field at university, I was already relatively

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Speaker 1: confident that with enough effort, you can achieve pretty much anything.

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Speaker 1: But it takes effort.

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Speaker 2: Can you walk us through a little bit of what

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Speaker 2: astronaut training looks like. You obviously had gone through all

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Speaker 2: this rigorous training in terms of becoming a pilot Air

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Speaker 2: Force engineering. You've lived a whole life, right, and that

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Speaker 2: would have been challenging in and of itself, But then

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Speaker 2: we take it up a notch. How do you train

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Speaker 2: to become an astronaut?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so to become an astronaut, a traditional government astronaut

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Speaker 1: like I am, where you're representing your country, you first

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Speaker 1: have to go through a selection process that can take

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Speaker 1: usually about a year and a half or so. I

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Speaker 1: applied to be a British astronaut actually through the European

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Speaker 1: Space Agency, their first call in about ten or so years,

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Speaker 1: the first and only application I've ever had the chance

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Speaker 1: to apply to, and that was an incredible adventure in

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Speaker 1: it and at the end I ended up representing Australia,

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Speaker 1: which was a greater outcome than I could have hoped

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Speaker 1: for and one that was entirely unexpected for me. But

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Speaker 1: once you're great through the selection process, you then have

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Speaker 1: to do what's called astronaut candidate training or basic training.

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Speaker 1: And it's only at the end of that training, which

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Speaker 1: is about a year a year and a half, that

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Speaker 1: you can call yourself an astronaut. You get your wings

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Speaker 1: that you wear in your flight suit, and that means

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Speaker 1: you're eligible for professional government missions representing your country to

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Speaker 1: the International Space Station or even beyond, say to the Moon,

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Speaker 1: if your country chooses to pursue that direction. So that

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Speaker 1: was really exciting and graduated last April, and the training

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Speaker 1: was spectacular. The first astronauts we know, they were typically

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Speaker 1: test pilots or fighter pilots from the US or the USSR.

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Speaker 1: Way back then quite our flight and personality, and that's

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Speaker 1: because of the kind of work they had to do,

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Speaker 1: you know, quite hands on, flying new vehicles, very dangerous

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Speaker 1: and short missions. Quite individual in terms of how you perform. Today,

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Speaker 1: the main destination for astronauts is the International Space Station.

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Speaker 1: The International Space Station is huge. It's the size of

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Speaker 1: a soccer field, almost one hundred and nine meters across,

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Speaker 1: and the inside part is about as much volume or

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Speaker 1: air as they a five bedroom house. And most people

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Speaker 1: are there for six months, and you're working with seven

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Speaker 1: to fourteen other astronauts up there in some cases, and

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Speaker 1: you're up there to do science that you can't do

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Speaker 1: on Earth with gravity and atmosphere in the way into

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Speaker 1: medicine and materials and every other kind of science and

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Speaker 1: technology you can imagine. And because you're up there for

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Speaker 1: such a long time, you have to be an all rounder,

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Speaker 1: so we learn every role. In the Shuttle era previously

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Speaker 1: people are very specialized. In this era, people have to

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Speaker 1: be all rounders. We have to be good enough at

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Speaker 1: a lot of things. We are medical test subjects ourselves

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Speaker 1: to think of how the body does weird and wonderful

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Speaker 1: things in space, and we have to look after our crewmates.

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Speaker 1: We're also medical doctors or paramedics or nurses depending on

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Speaker 1: what's happening, or researchers. We need to be engineers and tradees,

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Speaker 1: space tradees fixing the toilets and the plumbing and the

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Speaker 1: air cone. There's no gyms. Come to the iss and

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Speaker 1: fix it for me. We also are in a way

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Speaker 1: diplomats for a country on the world stage. We have

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to showcase the best of what our country

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Speaker 1: can offer. So we need to understand that and be

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Speaker 1: across that. And we need winter survival, ocean survival, firefighting

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Speaker 1: and rescue, lots of fitness, and the list goes on.

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Speaker 1: And we had over three hundred instructors in thirteen months.

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Speaker 1: It was remarkable we even learn Russian.

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Speaker 2: All of that in thirteen months.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, but it was wonderful. I did it

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Speaker 1: in a class of five others and we were all

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Speaker 1: in it together, not in competition, there to help each

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Speaker 1: other through it, all with different backgrounds, and it was

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Speaker 1: such a pleasure to learn in that way from the

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Speaker 1: best in their fields. And the hardest part was, honestly

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Speaker 1: just pacing ourselves through it so we don't get burnt

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Speaker 1: out by our own enthusiasm to learn everything.

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Speaker 2: Sounds are extraordinary. Some would call it terrifying, and that

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Speaker 2: would be me. Have you ever been to the International

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Speaker 2: Space Station?

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Speaker 1: No? I haven't been to space yet, so maybe that's

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Speaker 1: something in my future. Nothing's guaranteed. It's still early days

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Speaker 1: for Australia. We've never had an Australian supported mission with

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Speaker 1: Australian payloads and Australian science. So you know, the International

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Speaker 1: Space Station's coming towards the end of its life by

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Speaker 1: the end of the decade. All these new space stations

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Speaker 1: are in planning their space stations around the Moon, and

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Speaker 1: Australia has so many great capabilities that we can bring

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Speaker 1: to the table if we know the opportunities exist. So

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Speaker 1: I'm focused on helping with that too.

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Speaker 2: How do you stay sharp in you know, your day

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Speaker 2: to day role is so busy with all of this

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Speaker 2: outreach and science, communication and science on the ground, But

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Speaker 2: how do you kind of stay physically and mentally ready

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Speaker 2: for a future where maybe you are spending six months

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Speaker 2: on the.

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Speaker 1: Space station or a space station. Well, yeah, it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting one. So the life of an astronaut is defined

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Speaker 1: by uncertainty. Being from a an Emerging Space Nation is

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Speaker 1: just another onion layer of uncertainty on the top of that,

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Speaker 1: and we recruited for our ability to handle uncertainty and

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Speaker 1: performing it, and then we're further trained. What I found

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Speaker 1: really interesting as part of our human behavior and performance

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Speaker 1: training was for astronauts self care isn't just a means

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Speaker 1: to perform, It is actually a performance measure. If you

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Speaker 1: are burning out, you are seen as not performing even

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Speaker 1: if you're delivering, and you have to identify in yourself

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Speaker 1: what those markers are. So for me, it's a certain

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Speaker 1: amount of our sleep a night, if I don't exercise

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Speaker 1: for a certain amount of days in a row the

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Speaker 1: way I normally would, they're like little yellow flags you're

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Speaker 1: not working sustainably. Sometimes you can't right, you have to push,

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Speaker 1: but then you need to make sure that you give

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Speaker 1: yourself that time to recover. And I know I've definitely

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Speaker 1: been guilty of not doing that in the past, and

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Speaker 1: it was really refreshing on astronaut training to see seeing

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Speaker 1: astronauts unashamedly say know when they knew that it would

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Speaker 1: push them too hard. Because there will always be more

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Speaker 1: you can learn, there will always be more you can

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Speaker 1: contribute and you're the only one that can put your

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Speaker 1: hand up and say, all right, this is as much

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Speaker 1: as I can do if you want me to keep

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Speaker 1: performing long the term. So that was really a good

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Speaker 1: takeaway for me.

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Speaker 2: We're in this remarkable era where space is becoming so

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Speaker 2: much more accessible, seemingly through you know, the kind of

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Speaker 2: commercial space flights that we're seeing, the collaboration between space

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Speaker 2: agencies and private companies, and you know, just a couple

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Speaker 2: of weeks ago on the podcast, we were talking about

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Speaker 2: NASA's Artemis program, which is aiming to return humans to

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Speaker 2: the Moon by mid twenty twenty seven and eventually reach Mars.

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Speaker 2: What excites you the most about this new era that

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Speaker 2: we're in space is really at the forefront of the

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Speaker 2: kind of international conversations that we're having right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's absolutely phenomenal time to be an astronaut, especially

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Speaker 1: in an Australian astronaut. At this time. You're right, the world

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Speaker 1: is really on the cusp of, you know, the next

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Speaker 1: great space exploration or industrialization endeavor, and this uncertainty creates

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Speaker 1: opportunity for new entrants, new ways of thinking and doing things.

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Speaker 1: The Australian Space Agency was only established in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: so we don't have to turn the ship. We're already

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Speaker 1: emerging in this more commercialized space era, and that's a

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Speaker 1: good thing. You know. It should be as commercial as

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Speaker 1: possible as government as necessary. You know, government uses tax

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Speaker 1: payer funds and they should be used where only they

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Speaker 1: can be used, and that's the way that we see this.

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Speaker 1: So there's an important role to play there. But commercial

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Speaker 1: actors are also incredibly capable. We can look towards our industry.

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Speaker 1: We have examples of startups that are more sustainably finding

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Speaker 1: critical minerals for things like electric cars in a more

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Speaker 1: environmentally friendly way. The Space Agency has given them grant

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Speaker 1: funding and they've scaled off the back of that and

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Speaker 1: are now sending sensors to the Moon's very very exciting.

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Speaker 1: I know that a lot of my colleagues could end

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Speaker 1: up on the Moon. I've even qualified for the Moon.

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Speaker 1: You know, though. The world's the oyster. And the kind

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Speaker 1: of learnings that we will gain from this, we can't

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Speaker 1: even imagine. When you have a space mission, you have

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Speaker 1: an intentional goal, you have an objective right. One of

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Speaker 1: the things we know that we will learn in the

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Speaker 1: Artemis missions, going back to the south ball of the

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Speaker 1: Moon is about the geology of the Moon, what's in

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Speaker 1: the subsurface. Australian tenses are going to help with that.

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Speaker 1: You know what is under there, and that's not interesting

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Speaker 1: just because it's knowledge we don't have. It's interesting because

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Speaker 1: that will also teach us about the early Earth and

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Speaker 1: what's deep under the Earth's crust and that is an

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Speaker 1: input that we need to refine in our climate change models.

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Speaker 1: So there's those quite practical things, but is also the

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Speaker 1: unintentional spin out sinnew technologies that will spin out we

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Speaker 1: can't even imagine, like how MRI and laser technology was

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Speaker 1: further through space. Same with cordless drill technology, right, So

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Speaker 1: drills were invented before they were used in space, but

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Speaker 1: they didn't have a market really, So Apollo needed cordless

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Speaker 1: drills for astronauts to use on the Moon and then

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Speaker 1: they were furthered and they could then go to markets.

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Speaker 1: Every time you use the cordless drill in your home,

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Speaker 1: you're using space technology. There's a little work to be

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Speaker 1: done on a global scale to fully understand what space

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Speaker 1: is doing, but Australia is right there. So it's an

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Speaker 1: exciting time for us to be out of move forward.

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Speaker 2: If you could choose any mission, Moon, Mars Space Station,

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Speaker 2: something else beyond our wildest dreams, where would you most

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Speaker 2: want to go or what mission would you most want

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Speaker 2: to be a part of?

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Speaker 1: And why that's incredible? Look to go to space to

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Speaker 1: make discoveries. Representing Australia in any capacity would be a

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Speaker 1: phenomenal honor for me. But most astronauts of my era

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Speaker 1: dream of the Moon right. Like to be able to

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Speaker 1: step out onto the surface of the Moon and make

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Speaker 1: those discoveries and look back at Earth as part of

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Speaker 1: a team of astronauts from a team nations, fostering good

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Speaker 1: relations around the world at the same time. That would

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Speaker 1: be phenomenal. Can you imagine stepping out of that hatch

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Speaker 1: and looking up? You know, Mars is the purview probably

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Speaker 1: the next generation if they cheat, if humanity chooses to

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Speaker 1: pursue that, and there's a lot we need to solve

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Speaker 1: to do that in terms of new medicines and materials

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Speaker 1: in closed loops, sustainable systems, and if we get there,

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Speaker 1: the world's come a long way, so that will be amazing.

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Speaker 1: If I'm going to go sci fi, it's got to

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Speaker 1: be like an exoplanet or like a sorry, a moon

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Speaker 1: like Europa where you know there might be life there.

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Speaker 1: We don't know, we're going to go explore that. That

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Speaker 1: would be pretty epic as well. I think you want

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Speaker 1: a good radiation so if you're anywhere near you know

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Speaker 1: our gas giants, but to look up at them on

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Speaker 1: the horizon while exploring. Yeah, sci fi stuff, but you

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Speaker 1: can think like that right sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Amazing shout out to Europa. What advice Catherine, before we

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Speaker 2: let you go, what advice would you give to young

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Speaker 2: astrai as, particularly young women who dream of a career

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Speaker 2: in space, but maybe they don't know what opportunities even

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Speaker 2: exist or where to start.

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Speaker 1: I would say, go for it. Working in space you

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Speaker 1: get to be at the cutting edge, of the cutting edge,

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Speaker 1: at the forefront of discovery, of identifying and solving problems

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Speaker 1: the world needs solved, and you do it with people

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Speaker 1: that have such good will across the space sector. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: you compete, but it's like you compete within a single

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Speaker 1: sports code. You still have a love for the sport,

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Speaker 1: so you can appreciate the success of others. As a

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Speaker 1: young woman or a woman. For those people out there,

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Speaker 1: you might be in the minority, but you'll find your place,

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Speaker 1: and when you're in the minority, you just add additional value.

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Speaker 1: It's something that you should pursue without hesitation if you

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Speaker 1: want to work in space and you're not particularly stem minded.

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Speaker 1: Space is a whole industry. Yes, we need scientists to

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Speaker 1: ask the big questions and engineers to figure out how

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Speaker 1: to answer them. But we also need space lawyers. We

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Speaker 1: need space marketers, we need space media. We need people

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Speaker 1: that stitch together the spacesuits and drive the trucks and

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Speaker 1: drive the ships with the rockets on the back. We

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Speaker 1: need the people in mission control teaching the astronauts to

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Speaker 1: use the fitness equipment. We need nutritionus. It's a whole industry.

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Speaker 1: If you put the word space in front of a job,

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Speaker 1: it exists somewhere in the world, or it could if

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Speaker 1: you choose to create that opportunity and pursue it within Australia.

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Speaker 1: When I grew up, I felt I had to leave

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Speaker 1: Australia to have a space career. I followed in the

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Speaker 1: footsteps of people like Andy Thomas and Paul Scully, power

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Speaker 1: Australians that went to Space Vanessa, because that's the only

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Speaker 1: path I could see. But now kids today, they have

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Speaker 1: so many opportunities here they don't have to leave. They

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Speaker 1: have a new Australian rocket being developed in Queensland that's

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Speaker 1: already had its first launch and is planning more. We

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Speaker 1: have pharmaceuticals coming down in re entry capsules to out

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Speaker 1: Back Australia, South Australia, and also samples from asteroids and

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Speaker 1: Mars landing there. We've got small satellites being developed in

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Speaker 1: many of the state and territories around our country. We've

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Speaker 1: got school kids putting payloads on the International Space Station,

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Speaker 1: and we have startups forming all the time. So I

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Speaker 1: would say, yeah, there's opportunity, and there's also opportunity to

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Speaker 1: have impact and have joy when you do it.

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Speaker 2: Catherine, you're an absolute rock star. Thank you so so

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Speaker 2: much for talking to us today. It's been really fascinating

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Speaker 2: to learn a bit more about your world and beyond.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Jasmina Pleasure, thank.

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Speaker 2: You so much for listening to today's episode, and a

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Speaker 2: huge thank you to Catherine bentel Peg for joining us

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Speaker 2: for that fascinating conversation. We'll be back tomorrow with another

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Speaker 2: deep dive, but until then, have a great day.

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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Adunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcottin woman from Gadigl country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past just in present