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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers now.

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Speaker 1: All this week on the Happy Families Podcast, fascinating conversations

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Speaker 1: with people who had mixed experiences when it comes to

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Speaker 1: high school, finishing year twelve, going to university, or perhaps not,

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Speaker 1: as the case may be. And the purpose of these

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Speaker 1: conversations is to highlight that yes school matters, Yes education

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Speaker 1: is important, but it's not the be all and end all.

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Speaker 1: And if you are a parent who is worried about

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Speaker 1: your children and their education, I'm sharing stories all this

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Speaker 1: week of remarkable people who have done incredible things in

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Speaker 1: spite of the fact that school didn't work out so well.

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Speaker 1: On Monday, we spoke to a man who runs charity

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Speaker 1: in Adelaide, Ian Steel, Kickstart for Kids, helping tens of

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Speaker 1: thousands of kids every single day across the state. On Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: had a fascinating chat with Cam Barber, who mentors CEO's Fortune,

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Speaker 1: five hundred Companies, Paramount Pictures and the rest. Didn't have

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Speaker 1: the greatest school experience, in fact, spent most of it

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Speaker 1: abroad so that he didn't have to really do school.

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Speaker 1: On Wednesday, and incredible conversation with a woman who didn't

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Speaker 1: finish high school but became an audio engineer for Prince

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Speaker 1: and is now a professor at Berkeley College of Music

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Speaker 1: in Boston. And today I'm so excited to tell you

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Speaker 1: about a man by the name of Tom O'Brien. Tom

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Speaker 1: never went to UNI either. In spite of that, he

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Speaker 1: had a nine year career with Shell, ultimately moved to

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Speaker 1: Asia and became an executive with a commodities group, which

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Speaker 1: led to him retiring at forty one years of age.

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Speaker 1: Now he runs retirement villagers, He consults to industry, and

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Speaker 1: he has an absolutely powerful story to tell about education

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Speaker 1: and about how life plays out in spite of us

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Speaker 1: never quite knowing what's going to happen. Tom O'Brien, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining me on the Happy Families

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Speaker 1: podcast for this chat.

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Speaker 2: He's a pleasure justin. Thank you very much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Take me back to the beginning. So you're born in

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Speaker 1: the in Ireland. What was your family like, what was

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Speaker 1: your background like, and what was your school experience like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Yeah, so fairly typical. My parents are

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Speaker 2: from the West of Ireland, County Mayo and Galway. Basically

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Speaker 2: sheep farmers, so you know, etching etching out a fairly

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Speaker 2: sort of subsistence living almost you might say, in the

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Speaker 2: wild west of Ireland. I started out at school where

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Speaker 2: it was compulsory to speak the Irish language Gaelic. Can

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Speaker 2: you imagine. I wasn't wasn't very good at that, to

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Speaker 2: be honest. But then my parents moved to the UK,

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Speaker 2: to London to sort of further their fortunes, and I

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Speaker 2: went to a Catholic school as it was the only

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Speaker 2: choice of state school where you know, I wasn't particularly

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Speaker 2: sporty and I wasn't particularly academic, but I was quite competitive,

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Speaker 2: so I did, you know, the girls in particular, I

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Speaker 2: want to sort of try and beat them at at

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Speaker 2: their marks. But I just don't think, I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 2: why was I not that successful? I guess the attention

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Speaker 2: span wasn't quite there. I think that's one thing. So

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Speaker 2: I could do things for a short period of time

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Speaker 2: very well, but I just didn't have the attention span

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Speaker 2: to sort of carry it out over a long period.

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Speaker 2: So indeed, as you say, when I reached year twelve

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Speaker 2: in the UK we have a levels at that stage,

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Speaker 2: I didn't do particularly well at a levels, and so

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Speaker 2: I immediately jumped into the workforce and joined show International,

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Speaker 2: filing bits of paper for a couple of years, I remember,

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Speaker 2: but worked my way up from there. But I think

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Speaker 2: one thing I want to mention in particular, and perhaps

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Speaker 2: maybe of some interest to some of the people listening.

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Speaker 2: I suppose those humble beginnings in the west of our

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Speaker 2: and this is probably a story that a lot of

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Speaker 2: immigrants here in Australia can relate to. It does provide

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Speaker 2: you with a strong work ethic, and it provides you

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Speaker 2: with a desire to be independent, to be in control

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Speaker 2: of your own destiny, I suppose. And at the time

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Speaker 2: I couldn't really articulate it, or I hadn't really thought

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Speaker 2: about it too much, but it's definitely something that drove me.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't clear, I think, to your point, as

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Speaker 2: in your introduction, it wasn't clear in which way it

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Speaker 2: was going to drive me or what it was going

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Speaker 2: to drive me to do. But I definitely had that

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Speaker 2: work ethic in me, and I think it's stood me

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Speaker 2: in really good stead. Tom.

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Speaker 1: Were your parents concerned when you didn't go to university?

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Speaker 1: Were your parents concerned about the fact that you didn't

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Speaker 1: do so well when you finished your A levels, I

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Speaker 1: don't think so.

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Speaker 2: You know, neither of them had frankly reached tertiary education.

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Speaker 2: They'd had a solid education in the West of Ireland.

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Speaker 2: I think the education is the state education system. There's

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Speaker 2: quite good. Also, by the way, I should mention, you know,

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Speaker 2: strongly Catholic education as well. Maybe there's a bit of

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Speaker 2: work ethic in that too, So I followed in their

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Speaker 2: footsteps in that respect, and I think from from their

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Speaker 2: perspective they could see that strong work ethic. And you know,

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Speaker 2: by the time I was I finished school, I was

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Speaker 2: already doing two part time jobs. I was working at

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Speaker 2: the local supermarket and I think you know, I was

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Speaker 2: working at a actually at a Catholic social club behind

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Speaker 2: the bar, so they could see that I wasn't going

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Speaker 2: to sit around and do nothing. And I think also

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Speaker 2: they appreciated that, you know, not everybody is disposed towards

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Speaker 2: academic study. And in fact, you know, I've got three

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Speaker 2: children now and you know, I can certainly see various

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Speaker 2: outcomes in them, and at least one of them is

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Speaker 2: is quite similar to me in that respect. So not

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Speaker 2: a strong academic, but it's got a good work ethic,

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Speaker 2: and I think my parents could see that in me,

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Speaker 2: and therefore I don't think they were that concerned.

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Speaker 1: Work Ethic is one thing, but there also has to

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Speaker 1: be the capacity to do certain kinds of work, like

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Speaker 1: we all have certain intrinsic strengths, proclivities, tendencies. You spent

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Speaker 1: I think you said, nine years with Shell, and so

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Speaker 1: you've obviously gone from filing paper. There's been some sort

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Speaker 1: of progression. What were you good at and why did

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Speaker 1: Shell hang on to you for nine years and move

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Speaker 1: you up the ladder bit by bit by bit right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was so definitely that that work ethic was

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Speaker 2: there so they could see what Lots of my peers

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Speaker 2: were out, would finish exactly on time and rush out

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Speaker 2: to go and have after dinner, after work drinks. I

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Speaker 2: was often the guy sitting there just plowing through stuff,

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Speaker 2: just just wanting to get stuff done. You know. I

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Speaker 2: guess in a way, I felt like I didn't have

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Speaker 2: a safety net, so that there was that there was

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Speaker 2: that desire in me and I and I was also

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Speaker 2: very very clear about what I wanted from Shell, So

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Speaker 2: it was a two way street. When I joined I

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Speaker 2: answered an advert in the newspaper and what I could

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Speaker 2: see of Shell, I did my research. It's a global company,

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Speaker 2: had offices in every country in the world, pretty much

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Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of employees. It also had it was

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Speaker 2: involved in so many different sectors. I know, you might think, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's a one dimensional company. It's it's petrol, but actually

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Speaker 2: it's lots of things. It's it's engineering, it's research, it's

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Speaker 2: human resources. It's yes, of course, you know, directly involved

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Speaker 2: in extraction of commodities, but it's also refining and shipping

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Speaker 2: and retail and marketing and so many different things. So

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Speaker 2: so it really appears to me that I would find

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Speaker 2: again leaving school not really knowing what I was particularly

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Speaker 2: good at or what I was particularly striving for. But

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Speaker 2: if I joined a company that pretty much did everything everywhere,

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Speaker 2: I'd find a place for myself. And so it was

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Speaker 2: a two way street. It was, you know, I wanted

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Speaker 2: something from Shell, they wanted something from me. We had

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Speaker 2: a nice meeting. I suppose we came to an understanding.

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Speaker 1: I say, Tom, I want to talk to you about

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Speaker 1: the process of moving from Shell, this massive international company,

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Speaker 1: to a startup in Singapore with ten people. But just

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Speaker 1: before I ask you about that in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: could you still get the kind of opportunity, the same

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Speaker 1: start that you got with Shell without having gone to Uni.

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Speaker 1: Some people might hear a story like this and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: but the world's different now, are they right?

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's a really good question. Justin it's a really

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Speaker 2: good point because I actually had this conversation with my

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Speaker 2: youngest son probably a few days ago. He was feeling

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Speaker 2: a little bit, perhaps despondent. So he's now in his

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Speaker 2: second year of university and he's the least academic of

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Speaker 2: my children. But he posed that exact question to me.

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Speaker 2: He said, Oh, it was different in your time. It

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Speaker 2: was possible then, it's not possible now. But I think

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Speaker 2: on the contrary, And I said to him, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think the same opportunities, if not more, exist today.

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Speaker 2: And probably his despondency was coming more from his view

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Speaker 2: that it was a daunt He's at a tipping point,

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Speaker 2: a daunting point in his life, and it seems a

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Speaker 2: bit scary. But actually, you know, from my own experience

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Speaker 2: and looking at all three of my children, you know

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Speaker 2: they have got all of the tools that they need

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Speaker 2: to succeed, and and it's not obvious to them necessarily,

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Speaker 2: but I can see it in them, and I think

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Speaker 2: you know often that we tend to look in words

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Speaker 2: and be a little bit fearful about what's what's coming next,

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Speaker 2: But in actual facts, I think, just just trust, trust

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Speaker 2: in what you're doing, and keep keep at it because

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Speaker 2: eventually you'll find that thing that that really inspires you

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Speaker 2: and motivates you. And once you find that thing, then

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Speaker 2: you've got the secret to success. In my opinion, I'm.

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Speaker 1: Going to pick that threat up again shortly. Let's return

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Speaker 1: to your move from Shell to a startup. Lots of risk, involved,

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Speaker 1: lots of uncertainty. Yeah, how did you weigh that up

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Speaker 1: and get me through the story?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's it's a good one. Because that

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Speaker 2: was my zipping point. Effectively. I was in a very

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Speaker 2: comfortable position in Shell. As I say, I was actually

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Speaker 2: coming up to my tenth anniversary in Shell. Literally it

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Speaker 2: was weeks to go, and I remember the company. So

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Speaker 2: I was sitting in Singapore. I'd been living in Singapore

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Speaker 2: for a year. I'd met my wife in Shell in London,

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Speaker 2: who's from Adelaide, and we'd moved to Singapore together and

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Speaker 2: we hadn't had children at that stage, and the company

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Speaker 2: had offered me a position in Tokyo, and I thought

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Speaker 2: to myself, it really forced me to make a decision

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Speaker 2: about possibly, for the first time in my life, really

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Speaker 2: where I wanted to go and what I wanted to

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Speaker 2: do and kind of plan the next ten twenty years

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Speaker 2: or even even longer. It's the first time I'd ever

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Speaker 2: done it. So that's again I come back to, you know,

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Speaker 2: if you're eighteen or twenty or whatever, I wouldn't worry

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Speaker 2: about it too much because I had no clue at

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Speaker 2: that point. But by this time I was in my

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Speaker 2: late twenties, and certainly I felt like this was a

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Speaker 2: this was a fork in the road for me. I

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Speaker 2: really had to make a decision. I could have stayed

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Speaker 2: with Shell, being very very comfortable. They're very generous to

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Speaker 2: their expatriates. They give you housing and school allowances and

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Speaker 2: everything that you can possibly imagine, So would have been

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Speaker 2: very comfortable. And I could project myself forward in Shell

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Speaker 2: ten or twenty years and imagine that I would be

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Speaker 2: a middle management sort of level and very very comfortable,

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Speaker 2: so I could map out that route quite easily. Or alternatively,

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Speaker 2: I could jump onto this kind of startup company, A

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Speaker 2: bit of a roll of the dice, admittedly, but it

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Speaker 2: felt like I would be more in control of my destiny.

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Speaker 2: So rather than relying on the big company and I

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Speaker 2: do what they say and I go where they want

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Speaker 2: me to go, I actually take control and say, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to make a kind of life changing decision.

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Speaker 2: And yes, it is a risk because this company is

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Speaker 2: complete opposite to Shell. It's tiny, it's new. You know,

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Speaker 2: it hasn't been around for long, so goodnesses how much

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Speaker 2: longer it's going to last. But in a way win

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Speaker 2: lose or win or lose. In a way, I couldn't

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Speaker 2: fail because I'd taken a grip of my life and

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Speaker 2: dragged it in a direction that I thought was right

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Speaker 2: and was going to be successful. And even if that

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Speaker 2: didn't prove to be the case, I would not die wondering.

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Speaker 2: So it felt like a very invigorating decision, to be

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Speaker 2: perfectly honest with you, Although it was a risk, there's

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Speaker 2: no question about that.

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Speaker 1: But what I'm hearing you say is that they still

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Speaker 1: let people who don't have university degrees make decisions like that.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And in fact, you know I think that I

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Speaker 2: mentioned it a little bit earlier, not having a safe

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Speaker 2: the net. So I think many people view a tertiary

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Speaker 2: education as a safety net. You know, if I go

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Speaker 2: down a certain career path and if it doesn't work out,

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Speaker 2: I have this, I have this qualification that will get

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Speaker 2: me somewhere else, so I can't you know, there's not

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Speaker 2: the risk of failure is quite is quite low. But

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Speaker 2: in a way, if you don't have that, and I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying it's good or it's bad, but certainly it's

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Speaker 2: it's it's far from fatal. In a way, it forces

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Speaker 2: you to really push yourself and examine yourself and work

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Speaker 2: out what is it that you want to do. And

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Speaker 2: it's not just a piece of paper exercise. This has

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Speaker 2: got real implications.

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Speaker 1: As a result of the decisions you made. You were

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Speaker 1: placed in a situation where the original owner of the

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Speaker 1: business brought you and the other partners out. That's where

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Speaker 1: a retirement win fall came to you in your very

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Speaker 1: early forties, which is a situation that many people can't

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Speaker 1: even comprehend. As a result of that, though all of

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Speaker 1: your children have had the privilege of a great education, yeah,

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Speaker 1: if one of them has decided that they didn't want

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Speaker 1: to go to UNI. How would you feel about that?

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Speaker 1: Or if one of your kids said I'm dropping out

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Speaker 1: it's just not doing it for me. Yeah, what would

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Speaker 1: you respond with?

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Speaker 2: Look, it's very topical because I have, as I say,

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Speaker 2: sort of with the three children I have. I call

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Speaker 2: it a social experiment. In a way, all of the

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Speaker 2: outcomes are represented. So I've got my oldest son, who

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Speaker 2: you know, is very much an academic and a high achiever,

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Speaker 2: and he's done a six year double degree mcanical Engineering.

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Speaker 2: And in a way he's going full circle. He's about

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Speaker 2: to graduate in a couple of weeks and he has

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Speaker 2: just accepted a job with you know, a large engineering

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Speaker 2: firm in the UK, Rolls Warst Aerospace. So in a

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Speaker 2: way he goes full circle back to the UK where

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Speaker 2: I started. But but but in a in a very

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Speaker 2: different way. My daughter is about to finish a geology degree.

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Speaker 2: She's somewhere in between in terms of academic But it's

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Speaker 2: my youngest son who probably you know, is the least

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Speaker 2: academic and and and poses exactly these questions to me.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he is doing a degree and he has

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Speaker 2: he has said to me, you know, I think actually

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Speaker 2: this is a little bit pointless, and why am I

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Speaker 2: doing this? And you know, I don't see the relevance

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Speaker 2: of it, and and and clearly he doesn't enjoy the

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Speaker 2: actual study itself. So that's I think that's a lot

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Speaker 2: of people could probably empathize. And I've said to him, Look,

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Speaker 2: you know, I've said a couple of things. Okay, So

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Speaker 2: first of all, in a way, the bar is set

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Speaker 2: higher for him because because he has had all of

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Speaker 2: the privileges that you describe. He went to a very

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Speaker 2: good private school. Not saying that that state schools are

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Speaker 2: not good, but it was a good school. He does

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Speaker 2: not have the excuse of not being given the opportunity,

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Speaker 2: so said, I think it's encumbent upon you to having

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Speaker 2: been given that opportunity, to put in the effort to

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Speaker 2: at least go as far as you possibly can go

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Speaker 2: and get the fruits of that opportunity. Because what I

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Speaker 2: don't want to see is throwing the towel in. I

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Speaker 2: wanted to see the desire to finish the thing, finish

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Speaker 2: with flying colors or not. I don't care. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'll take a d any day of the week, as

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Speaker 2: long as you've worked hard for it. But I hate

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Speaker 2: a B that you've just cruised through. So I have

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Speaker 2: that conversation with him quite regularly, and he gets it

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Speaker 2: and he he he accepts it. But what I also

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Speaker 2: do see in him is that same work ethic that

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Speaker 2: I had. He's doing two or three jobs, his coffee jobs,

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Speaker 2: he works on the weekend, he's doing a two day internship.

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Speaker 2: So I see him putting in that effort, and I

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Speaker 2: think that's that's critical. But as I say that, in

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Speaker 2: a way, the qualification itself is not the most important thing,

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Speaker 2: because not everybody is an academic. I don't think I'm

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Speaker 2: an academic. But training yourself to to put in the

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Speaker 2: effort something that's worth doing, is worth doing well, don't

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Speaker 2: don't throw the towel, and don't give up. Those are

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Speaker 2: the sorts of things I really don't want to see.

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Speaker 2: And at the end of the at the end of

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Speaker 2: his degree. You know, as I say, failure or success

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Speaker 2: can be measured in many, many different ways. It's not

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Speaker 2: simply in a piece of paper. It's the experience, it's

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Speaker 2: the effort you put in. It's being proud of yourself

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Speaker 2: in what you've achieved. So that's what I'm looking for.

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Speaker 2: That's the conversation I have with him, he goes away

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Speaker 2: resentally happy with it. That's all I can say.

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Speaker 1: Effort and doing hard things is the mantra that I'm

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Speaker 1: really hearing this conversation. So as families grapple with the

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Speaker 1: challenges of year twelve exams at the moment, or I

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Speaker 1: mean even hearing you talk about this, just the ongoing

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Speaker 1: wrestle that education conversations create from the earliest years of

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Speaker 1: schooling right through to the university years. Are there any

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Speaker 1: final ideas that you share about kids, education and the future.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I think a number of things. I think

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Speaker 2: as I say, don't be too daunty, don't be fearful

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Speaker 2: for the future. I would be surprised if anybody has

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Speaker 2: not felt like that at some point, and especially at

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Speaker 2: this critical time. But it's not a reason and to panic,

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Speaker 2: it's not a reason to internalize. It's it's a great

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Speaker 2: time to share that with your friends and family and

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Speaker 2: discuss it, because chances are they've either been through it

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Speaker 2: themselves or perhaps even are going through it themselves right now.

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Speaker 2: It's it's not albeit that we we are led to

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Speaker 2: believe that, you know, year twelve is going to be

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Speaker 2: the make or break or life changing, and it can be.

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Speaker 2: But whatever the outcome is, it's it's manageable. And it's

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Speaker 2: not the end or the beginning. It's just part of

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Speaker 2: the journey. So frankly speaking, it's it's it's really not

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Speaker 2: something to get despondent about or fearful about. If anything,

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Speaker 2: you know, when you're at that age, you've got everything

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Speaker 2: to look forward to. And I can't emphasize that enough.

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Speaker 2: And I it's you know, so I wish I could

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Speaker 2: be eighteen again, as I'm sure you do, justin because

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Speaker 2: it's I think there are as many opportunities today, if

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Speaker 2: not more, and to be able to just throw yourself

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Speaker 2: into that and look forward to it. And if anything,

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Speaker 2: I think you know, especially you know, I've got a

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Speaker 2: girl and boys. If you're a girl, the opportunities are

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Speaker 2: arguably more than they've ever been. And not to say

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Speaker 2: that the boys don't. The boys still have all of

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Speaker 2: those opportunities. That don't use that as an excuse, but

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Speaker 2: the girls are having arguably more opportunities than they've ever had.

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Speaker 2: So I don't accept at all that there's less available today.

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Speaker 2: I think there's as much available now as has ever been.

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Speaker 2: I think it's super exciting. I think there's so such

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Speaker 2: a variety of things that people can get involved in

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Speaker 2: that everybody should look forward irrespective of grades, irrespective of

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Speaker 2: their academic outcomes, everyone should look forward with real excitement

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Speaker 2: and posit activity. So yeah, I wish good light to everybody.

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Speaker 2: Frankly speaking, Tom, you've been wonderfully generous. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for sharing your story with us age and pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Justin Tom O'Brien, dad to three kids, a former executive

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Speaker 1: with a company that ended up setting him up for

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Speaker 1: retirement in his early forties, and university. Well, didn't go

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Speaker 1: to university and life turned out quite remarkably well, didn't it.

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Speaker 1: I hope that these conversations have been valuable for you

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Speaker 1: as you consider what education means for you and your family.

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Speaker 1: Tomorrow we talk to a university academic who is studying

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Speaker 1: what happens when kids don't finish your twelve? What are

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Speaker 1: the average outcomes and how can finishing your twelve advantage

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Speaker 1: your kids no matter how they feel about school. The

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Speaker 1: Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin RULANDT for Bridge Media.

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Speaker 1: Craig Bruce is our executive producer. If you'd like more

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Speaker 1: information about how to make your family happy, yet, we'd

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Speaker 1: love for you to visit us at happy families dot com.

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Speaker 1: Do a