WEBVTT - Should TDA stop using trigger warnings?

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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<v Speaker 1>Bungelung Calcottin woman from Gadigl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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<v Speaker 1>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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<v Speaker 1>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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<v Speaker 1>Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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<v Speaker 1>first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's some content advice for the podcast that's about to come.

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<v Speaker 2>In this episode, we're going to be discussing the meaning

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<v Speaker 2>of trigger warnings, where they come from, and whether or

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<v Speaker 2>not they should be applied in our content. Good morning

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<v Speaker 2>and welcome to the Daily os. It's Wednesday, the fourth

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<v Speaker 2>of October. I'm Zara, I'm Billy. I'm the editor at

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<v Speaker 2>the Daily os.

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<v Speaker 3>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>Over the last few years, we've seen the rise of

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<v Speaker 2>trigger warnings in the content that we consume everywhere. We

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<v Speaker 2>of the Daily Ods have used it in this podcast

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<v Speaker 2>plenty of times, and we've also used it in a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of our written content. But at trigger warnings actually

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<v Speaker 2>protecting people.

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<v Speaker 3>And this is the evidence around trigger warnings. They trigger people,

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<v Speaker 3>They make anticipatory anxiety go through the roof.

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<v Speaker 2>In today's Deep Dive, we speak to the Global Director

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<v Speaker 2>of Men's Health Research at November, doctor Zach Seidler, and

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<v Speaker 2>yes he is my brother, but he also happens to

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<v Speaker 2>be an expert in the field of mental health. Before

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<v Speaker 2>we get to that chat, Billy, what is making headlines.

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<v Speaker 4>The Australian Reserve Bank has kept the cash rate at

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<v Speaker 4>four point one percent for the fourth consecutive month. The

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<v Speaker 4>decision followed the board's first meeting under the leadership of

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<v Speaker 4>the new RBA Governor Michelle Bullock, who said while inflation

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<v Speaker 4>was still too high, future rises would depend on new

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<v Speaker 4>data and risks in the economy.

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<v Speaker 2>A new study has found Australian parents are some of

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<v Speaker 2>the most risk averse in the world. New data from

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<v Speaker 2>Deacon University and Coventry University in the UK found that

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<v Speaker 2>four in five Australian parents put limits on risky activities

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<v Speaker 2>such as play fighting or climbing trees, and that's out

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<v Speaker 2>of fear that their child will be injured. The study

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<v Speaker 2>puts Ozzie parents ahead of New Zealand, Canada and the

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<v Speaker 2>UK when it comes to playtime risk aversion. It's encouraged

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<v Speaker 2>parents to loosen the reins to support physical and mental development.

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<v Speaker 4>Work has begun to convert Hitler's former Austrian home into

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<v Speaker 4>a police station. It's hoped the new purpose for the home,

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<v Speaker 4>where Hitler was born in eighteen eighty nine will deter

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<v Speaker 4>gatherings of Neo Nazi's other site. The property has been

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<v Speaker 4>under the control of the Austrian government for several decades.

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<v Speaker 2>And today's good news. A one hundred and four year

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<v Speaker 2>old woman in the US hopes to become the oldest

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<v Speaker 2>person to ever skydive. Dorothy Hoffner performed a skydive near

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<v Speaker 2>Chicago this week, which she hopes will be certified as

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<v Speaker 2>a record breaking dive. Hoffner told the onlooking crowd that

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<v Speaker 2>her age was just the number. Okay, So, Billy, the

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<v Speaker 2>reason that we wanted to do this interview with expert

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<v Speaker 2>Slash my brother Zach, was because you were asked to

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<v Speaker 2>comment on how the Daily ODS does trigger warnings.

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<v Speaker 4>Right, Yeah, So I participated in an SBS show called Insight,

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<v Speaker 4>and it was all about whether the trigger warnings are

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<v Speaker 4>helpful or harmful. And my perspective was that at the

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<v Speaker 4>Daily ODS we do use trigger warnings and that has

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<v Speaker 4>been informed by the audience. But it became clear throughout

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<v Speaker 4>the discussion on the show that there is mounting evidence

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<v Speaker 4>that they potentially are not helpful, and I thought it

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<v Speaker 4>was really important that we have a discussion about that

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<v Speaker 4>at the Daily Ods. Your brother is a clinical psychologist,

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<v Speaker 4>and I know he feels very passionately about it, and

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<v Speaker 4>he's spoken to me about it before, and I thought

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<v Speaker 4>we should get him on and have a really honest discussion.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think the best part of it is that

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<v Speaker 2>we learn as we go and we don't pretend to

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<v Speaker 2>be experts, and I think this discussion is the best

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<v Speaker 2>example of that. So, without further Ado, Zach and Billy.

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<v Speaker 4>Doctor Zach Sidler, Welcome to the Daily Ods.

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<v Speaker 3>Great to be here.

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<v Speaker 4>Billy. Now, you're a clinical psychologist and you've done a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of research in this space. What is your position

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<v Speaker 4>on trigger warnings?

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<v Speaker 3>So I think it won't be a surprise to you

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<v Speaker 3>given the amount of DMS that I've sent to you

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<v Speaker 3>and Daily Odds about my feelings.

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<v Speaker 1>Around your our troll.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm the troll number one troll. So the way that

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<v Speaker 3>I see trigger warnings and the way that the research

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<v Speaker 3>sees them is that there is no evidence that they work.

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<v Speaker 3>There is evidence that they harm and so depending on

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<v Speaker 3>the context, we need to be really careful about just

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<v Speaker 3>throwing trigger warnings out the front of all of this content,

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<v Speaker 3>especially on social media, and then throwing up our hands

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<v Speaker 3>and kind of saying that's my responsibility done. And it's

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<v Speaker 3>not to say that the Day the Odds has done that.

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<v Speaker 3>But the way that this has now become a commonplace,

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<v Speaker 3>pseudo scientific placeholder at the front of content is really

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<v Speaker 3>surprising and strange to me and suggests that we need

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<v Speaker 3>to have a bit of a conversation about what is

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<v Speaker 3>going on and what we can do in future.

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<v Speaker 4>I think the thing that I struggle with is that

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<v Speaker 4>our approach has been in the audience who tells us

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<v Speaker 4>that they do want trigger warnings. And I understand that

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<v Speaker 4>the evidence is changing, but what do we do when

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<v Speaker 4>the expectation hasn't.

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<v Speaker 3>So my answer to that is, if your audience told

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<v Speaker 3>you to put up more content about UFO sidings, would

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<v Speaker 3>you suddenly listen to them? If the vast majority of

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<v Speaker 3>them said, I swear to God, I've seen UFOs, you

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<v Speaker 3>need to put this up. You don't follow the audiences

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<v Speaker 3>every whim.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, But I think the difference is that they're telling

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<v Speaker 4>us that they think that we are harming them or

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<v Speaker 4>triggering them if we don't give them that warning for sure.

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<v Speaker 3>So there are two issues here. The first is that

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<v Speaker 3>your audience is largely, you know, young females, and I

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<v Speaker 3>think that what's very important to consider contextually is the

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<v Speaker 3>fact that most of them have grown up with trigger

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<v Speaker 3>warnings everywhere. Yeah, so it's an expectation because it's all

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<v Speaker 3>they've had. All I'm asking for is for you and

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<v Speaker 3>everyone else who's creating content to respect the audience enough

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<v Speaker 3>to go, Actually, we're going to follow the evidence and

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<v Speaker 3>ask and educate and bring you along on that journey

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<v Speaker 3>around whether or not this is something worth doing. Secondly,

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<v Speaker 3>and this is from a clinical perspective, avoidance is really

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<v Speaker 3>harmful when it comes to things like PTSD for instance. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>the best treatment around PTSD or something similar around trauma

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<v Speaker 3>is exposure. Is putting yourself in a situation where you're

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<v Speaker 3>going to be exposed to the situation again so that

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<v Speaker 3>you learn that it's not harmful. All of that is

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<v Speaker 3>to say, you cannot put up a trigger warning and

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<v Speaker 3>then put up harmful content. Yeah, the trigger warning doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>suddenly get rid of the responsibility for you to put

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<v Speaker 3>up safe, respectful content. In fact, what is happening, I

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<v Speaker 3>think is the trigger warnings are providing a blanket. Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>we've done our job now for much of the media. Instead,

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<v Speaker 3>if we get rid of trigger warnings and spend the

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<v Speaker 3>amount of time that is needed to actually ensure that

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<v Speaker 3>the content is safe. When we're talking about suicide, rape,

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<v Speaker 3>domestic violence, we use the right language and then we

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<v Speaker 3>pump information at the end, we make really clear to

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<v Speaker 3>provide a lot of information that is going to support

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<v Speaker 3>those young people to get the help that they need.

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<v Speaker 3>But the fact that they're coming out and saying this

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<v Speaker 3>content is harmful, well, there are two things there. A

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<v Speaker 3>trigger warning is not making it less harmful, So we

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<v Speaker 3>need to consider what is harmful about the content and

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<v Speaker 3>how to go about eradicating.

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<v Speaker 4>But it's giving them the choice.

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<v Speaker 3>But it's not giving them the choice. The trigger warning

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't give them the choice. What it does is it says,

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<v Speaker 3>and this is the evidence around trigger warnings. They trigger people.

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<v Speaker 3>They make anticipatory anxiety go through the roof. It makes

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<v Speaker 3>people go oh, and it gives you mental imagery. It

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<v Speaker 3>makes you start to go, what's coming, what's it going

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<v Speaker 3>to look? Like, how's it going to work? And it

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<v Speaker 3>increases anxiety. Rather than doing this thing, which I think

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<v Speaker 3>society needs to do, which is not over fragilized society,

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<v Speaker 3>not you know, suggest this over therapization of everybody. Rather

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<v Speaker 3>we need to go you are resilient, you are able

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<v Speaker 3>to cope with this. We are putting in safe content,

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<v Speaker 3>and we're going to make sure that you get the

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<v Speaker 3>support that you need at the end. But it's it's

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<v Speaker 3>not right for the media to decide. I don't believe

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<v Speaker 3>what is triggering and what is not.

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<v Speaker 4>But I think as the editor, if someone has gone

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<v Speaker 4>through trauma, who am I to tell them? Well, I

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<v Speaker 4>actually know what's best for you, and it's for you

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<v Speaker 4>to be exposed to this content. I feel so uncomfortable

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<v Speaker 4>taking that approach, do you know what I mean?

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<v Speaker 3>One percent? And I think that that's really to be

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<v Speaker 3>respected and valued. That question and you questioning yourself around

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<v Speaker 3>what is safe and not safe content is the pertinent

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<v Speaker 3>question here. But you deciding what is safe and not

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<v Speaker 3>safe for them around trigger warnings, you're making that call.

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<v Speaker 3>You're making that call about what is safe and what

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<v Speaker 3>is not safe. You're deciding what deserves the trigger warning.

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<v Speaker 3>And what doesn't I understand when it comes to mental

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<v Speaker 3>health and wellbeing that you feel like you have a

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<v Speaker 3>responsibility to look after them. And my response to that

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<v Speaker 3>is you do, and the best way to look after

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<v Speaker 3>them is to make safe content and to get rid

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<v Speaker 3>of trigger warnings.

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<v Speaker 4>Is there nuanced to it, like, are there ever scenarios

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<v Speaker 4>where you think that they could be helpful?

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<v Speaker 3>I think when it comes to aberge and on Torrest Islanders,

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<v Speaker 3>when there has been depictions of somebody who has died,

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<v Speaker 3>it's very clear there are cultural regulations and suggestions about

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<v Speaker 3>how to go about that. When it comes to warnings

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<v Speaker 3>more broadly around rape, domestic violence, assault, that type of thing,

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<v Speaker 3>I think what we need to do is not have

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<v Speaker 3>blanket rules for yes on everything. Rather we need more research,

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<v Speaker 3>which is a very reliable answer for any psychologist to say,

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<v Speaker 3>to go in what contexts for which people are these useful? Instead,

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<v Speaker 3>at the moment we're just going scattergun everywhere. Every piece

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<v Speaker 3>of content deserves this, And I think that you might

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<v Speaker 3>be safeguarding one person. I'm not suggesting that you're not,

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<v Speaker 3>but you may well not be looking after another thousand

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<v Speaker 3>or ten thousand people. And I think that we need

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<v Speaker 3>to realize that that one person should be getting supports

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<v Speaker 3>that they need. But the trigger warning actually does and

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<v Speaker 3>tell them what to do. It doesn't provide them with

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<v Speaker 3>any support.

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<v Speaker 4>But it does at the end of the piece, because

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<v Speaker 4>whenever there's a trigger warning, you also provide the help line.

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<v Speaker 3>Perfect, and that's exactly what is required. Let's have more

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<v Speaker 3>of that, let's build in safety. But the trigger warning

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't do anything for them in that interim period, whether

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<v Speaker 3>or not they watch it or not. It doesn't offer

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<v Speaker 3>any choice around the way that the content is going

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<v Speaker 3>to be offered to them. Does that make sense? You

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<v Speaker 3>put in a trigger warning, you say we're going to

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<v Speaker 3>talk about rape, and then you do whatever you want

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<v Speaker 3>in the middle, and then you offer supports at the end.

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<v Speaker 4>But no, because I don't think it's fair to say

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<v Speaker 4>that just because we use trigger warnings means that then

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<v Speaker 4>in the whole post we just do irresponsible reporting, like

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<v Speaker 4>we would never report on anything irresponsible. But it just

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<v Speaker 4>means that the audience has a choice.

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<v Speaker 3>But what I'm suggesting is that the choice they don't

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<v Speaker 3>have a choice about what you report already.

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<v Speaker 4>And it feels like it sounds maybe like I'm not

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<v Speaker 4>listening to you. I know that's fair, but it's more

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<v Speaker 4>just like, this is what it's been so low, and

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<v Speaker 4>I think it's a really important conversation about how we

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<v Speaker 4>change it. But I'm obviously just stuck on the choice.

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<v Speaker 3>But it's a choice. It's the choice around what type

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<v Speaker 3>of content they're choosing to watch. It's the choice around

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<v Speaker 3>what type of content you decide to put a trigger

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<v Speaker 3>warning on. There are so many arbitrary, subjective decisions that

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<v Speaker 3>are being made here, and that's what I think should

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<v Speaker 3>be eradicated. Rather, there should be a really clear, evidence

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<v Speaker 3>based protocol around this. Stuff is very clearly going to

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<v Speaker 3>trigger this population who we know is watching this, so

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<v Speaker 3>we're going to build it in. Otherwise, you're just building

0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.880
<v Speaker 3>up anticipatory anxiety for people who were never going to

0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.080
<v Speaker 3>have it before, and for other people who might actually

0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.400
<v Speaker 3>benefit from watching this content, they're going to avoid it

0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.600
<v Speaker 3>because they're avoiding anxiety, which is understandable. And I think,

0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.640
<v Speaker 3>and this is hard for any psychologist to say a

0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.320
<v Speaker 3>bit of anxiety is useful. It's useful for them to

0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.400
<v Speaker 3>watch the content if it is safely reported, for them

0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.560
<v Speaker 3>to embrace and their own resilience and realize that they

0:11:57.600 --> 0:11:58.280
<v Speaker 3>can get through it.

0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:01.160
<v Speaker 4>I have a question about a Star Born. I remember

0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.680
<v Speaker 4>when that came out. In the movie there is a

0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.400
<v Speaker 4>scene about suicide. There was a discussion about whether that

0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.080
<v Speaker 4>movie should have come with a trigger warning because it

0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:14.120
<v Speaker 4>is quite confronting and they do go into some details.

0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.040
<v Speaker 4>And obviously they're not a media organization, so they don't

0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:21.360
<v Speaker 4>have the necessity to have responsible reporting. What do you

0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:23.360
<v Speaker 4>think about that movie, like, should something like that have

0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:24.120
<v Speaker 4>a trigger warning?

0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.640
<v Speaker 3>So my response to that is the media has really

0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.360
<v Speaker 3>clear regulations and there are the mind frame guidelines which

0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.560
<v Speaker 3>everyone should follow around how to talk about suicide. Film

0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:37.079
<v Speaker 3>and television has very similar guidelines. The fact that they

0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:39.400
<v Speaker 3>don't feel the responsibility to live up to them is

0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:43.160
<v Speaker 3>a totally different ballgame. When it comes to showing depictions

0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:47.040
<v Speaker 3>of suicide in plays, in film, in television, they should

0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.720
<v Speaker 3>be in consultation with clinicians, with researchers about how to

0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:52.719
<v Speaker 3>go about doing that. There are plenty of shows that

0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.560
<v Speaker 3>I've worked on with in Australia who have asked for consultation,

0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.319
<v Speaker 3>who've gotten lived experience to make sure that this stuff

0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:02.160
<v Speaker 3>is safe. That depiction which shows method and location is

0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:02.760
<v Speaker 3>not safe.

0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.960
<v Speaker 4>Do you remember that movie very clearly and did it

0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:07.839
<v Speaker 4>follow responsible Guiden? Not at all?

0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:10.280
<v Speaker 3>And so no trigger warning was going to be safe there.

0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:11.800
<v Speaker 3>What it was going to do was going to amp

0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:13.120
<v Speaker 3>me up for the next hour and a half and

0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:14.559
<v Speaker 3>then I was going to see it and I was

0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:18.280
<v Speaker 3>still going to feel shitty. So that's a perfect example

0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.360
<v Speaker 3>of if you actually build in safe content and you

0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.000
<v Speaker 3>make sure and this is across media, television, anything, you

0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.320
<v Speaker 3>make sure that you are doing what is right by

0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.920
<v Speaker 3>the guidelines and the evidence, you shouldn't need a trigger

0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:32.360
<v Speaker 3>warning because the trigger warning would not have safeguarded that

0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:32.920
<v Speaker 3>piece at all.

0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.360
<v Speaker 4>So we've just had a whole conversation about trigger warnings.

0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.880
<v Speaker 4>We've talked about suicide for example. What do you think

0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:41.920
<v Speaker 4>that we should do at the start of this podcast.

0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:43.760
<v Speaker 3>I feel like I should record this is not a

0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:48.199
<v Speaker 3>trigger warning, enjoy the podcast. But I think that at

0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:49.920
<v Speaker 3>the top of this podcast, I think that you should

0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.520
<v Speaker 3>say we're going to be discussing the meaning of trigger warnings,

0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:55.559
<v Speaker 3>where they come from, and whether or not they should

0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.680
<v Speaker 3>be applied in all of our content. So suggesting that

0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:01.880
<v Speaker 3>this is going to be an education all situation rather

0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:03.120
<v Speaker 3>than a triggering one.

0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:05.679
<v Speaker 4>But isn't that still even if it's not using the

0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.000
<v Speaker 4>term trigger warning, it's still a trigger warning.

0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:10.040
<v Speaker 3>It is so Yeah, I think that there is a

0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.440
<v Speaker 3>way of talking about it that goes we're going to

0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.880
<v Speaker 3>It's so it's so interesting because even the second you

0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.560
<v Speaker 3>start to go in this podcast, we're going to discuss

0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.480
<v Speaker 3>immediately takes you two. We're going to have a trigger

0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:26.160
<v Speaker 3>warning here. Yeah, I got to think about I don't

0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:26.880
<v Speaker 3>know what you would.

0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:28.800
<v Speaker 4>Maybe we use the term content advice.

0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, well yeah, here is some content advice for

0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:34.080
<v Speaker 3>the podcast it's about to come.

0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.840
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Lastly, we haven't even discussed the fact that your

0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:40.840
<v Speaker 4>Zara's brother. I imagine that you two have had lots of

0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.720
<v Speaker 4>discussions about this. Why hasn't the Daily Os not been

0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.240
<v Speaker 4>using trigger warnings from the start?

0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.040
<v Speaker 3>It's a great question. She doesn't listen to me very clearly.

0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.120
<v Speaker 3>We've got older brothers in chrome, which is terrifying. But

0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.240
<v Speaker 3>I think that I'm really excited to be here today

0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:56.720
<v Speaker 3>and to be able to discuss this. It's something that's

0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:58.960
<v Speaker 3>evolving and I think that's the most important thing. And

0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.920
<v Speaker 3>you never want to, you know, jump it preemptively and

0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.080
<v Speaker 3>make sure that you do something unsafe, but let's just

0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.600
<v Speaker 3>have the conversation, because that's the way to really respect

0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.280
<v Speaker 3>the intelligence and the experience of your audience.

0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.000
<v Speaker 4>Doctor Zach Saidler, thank you so much for joining the

0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:12.640
<v Speaker 4>Daily Ours.

0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:13.360
<v Speaker 3>I'll see you soon.

0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:13.840
<v Speaker 1>Cheers.

0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for joining us on the Daily Ours. If you

0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:21.480
<v Speaker 2>need someone to talk to, you can give Lifeline a

0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.560
<v Speaker 2>call on thirteen eleven fourteen. We'll be back again tomorrow morning,

0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:35.360
<v Speaker 2>but until then, have a brilliant day.