1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: their day. I'm your host, Doctor Amata Inba. I'm an 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: finding ways to optimize my work date. This episode is 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: another My Favorite Tip episode. The title's probably pretty self explanatory. 7 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: It's about my favorite tip from each of the interviews 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: I conduct. I use this format because I sometimes feel 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: myself as a podcast listener that I just want to 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: get in, get the most amount of value from an episode, 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: and then get out, So in this format, I try 12 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: to do just that. My guest on today's My Favorite 13 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: Tip episode is Patty McCord. Patty served as the chief 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: Talent Officer of Netflix for fourteen years and helped create 15 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: the Netflix Culture Deck, which has been viewed on SlideShare 16 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: over fifteen million times, and in fact, Cheryl Samberg referred 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: to this deck as the most important document ever to 18 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: come out of the Valley. Patty is also the author 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: of Powerful Building a Culture of Freedom and Responsibility, which 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: is a great read. Now in this exit, we get 21 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: to hear about Patty talk about how to be radically 22 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: honest at work and why this matters so much. So 23 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: on that note over to Patty. 24 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: The thing about politics and about subtle nuances in communication 25 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 2: is that they're very inefficient. Right. I write in the book, Look, 26 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: if I'm going to stab you in the back, you 27 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: got to turn around. I got to get a knife. 28 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 2: I got to stab you. I got you know, hope 29 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 2: you die. I got to clean up the bike. I mean, 30 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: this is very complicated stuff, and it takes a lot 31 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 2: of time, and it's a lot easier for me to 32 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 2: just learn how to say, look, what you're doing right 33 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: now makes me crazy. Please stop. And you can say, oh, 34 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: I didn't realize it made you crazy, and you stop. 35 00:01:58,280 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: Right. 36 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: What a concept, right, And the second thing you said 37 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 2: that's really important is you use the word practice, you know, 38 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 2: practice radical honesty. Here's the deal. I'm really good at 39 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: it because I practice. So it is it is a 40 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: closed loop, right. So it's about efficiency and efficacy. When 41 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: you say somebody something to somebody's face that helps them 42 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: improve their performance or be a better part of the team. 43 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: And if you say something to somebody's face that helps 44 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: them improve their performance and be a better part of 45 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: the team, and that's sincerely why you're saying it. Then 46 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 2: the person on the receiving end is not going to 47 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: be all defensive when you tell them they could do 48 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: something differently. And here's the other part about radical honesty 49 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: that always gets lost in the noise. So people think 50 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: radical honesty equals feedback, equals constructive criticism, equals telling somebody 51 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: something that's that they don't want to hear in a 52 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: really nice way. As a parent, you can translate that 53 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: into guilt tripping. Right, So I say that bad thing 54 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 2: that you just did, that was a bad, bad thing, 55 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: don't do that bad thing again, because if you do 56 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: do that bad thing again, because you will, you'll feel bad, right. 57 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,399 Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of not very effective feedback. Right. 58 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: So the radical honesty is not only just saying, hey, look, 59 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 2: you could do that better in the moment that you're 60 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: doing it, but also in the moment saying that's exactly 61 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 2: what I'm talking about, that was awesome, right, So, which 62 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: is super effective feedback, right, the one we all forget about, 63 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: the one that actually works, the one where you get 64 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: a treat. So you know, it's again the theme we'll 65 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: have I think in this conversation is that people can't 66 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: be what they can't see. And so the more that 67 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 2: people can see other people giving each other really honest 68 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: feedback in person in the moment, the more as an 69 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: observer you can say, well, that wasn't that bad, that 70 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: wasn't that hard. It's why I have such a visceral 71 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: reaction to the annual performance review. It's like, really, you 72 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 2: give somebody feedback once a year, and you think, you know, 73 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: what makes you think you're going to be any good 74 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 2: at something you only do once a year. I mean, 75 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: name one other thing you do once a year in 76 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: your life that you're good at nothing? So so the 77 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: important part of the phrase that you use practice radical 78 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 2: honesty is practice. 79 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: Can I ask, like the are there still times though? 80 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: Can you think of an instance where you do feel 81 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: a bit nervous before giving someone some radically honest, constructive feedback? 82 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: Sure, all the time, I mean, but if it's not, 83 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 2: if it's not a little edgy, then it's probably not 84 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 2: worth it, right, I mean? And the other thing is 85 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 2: to keep in mind when you're doing radically honest feedback 86 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: is to what end? Right? 87 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 3: So I used to tell my HR team I was 88 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 3: just actually It was just at Netflix last week visiting 89 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 3: one of my colleagues is now a VP there in 90 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 3: HR and she brought me and sort. 91 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: Of like here crumbs Patty, the grandmother of the Netflix 92 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: culture deck, and I told them, I said, yeah, I 93 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 2: used to tell Bethany and the group. Yes, we are 94 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: a service organization. It's not spelled s e r v 95 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 2: A n t S. And the people and the people 96 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 2: that we serve don't work here. The people that we 97 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 2: serve with the people all over the world that use 98 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: the product and the service right and it's our job 99 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 2: to make sure that we've got the teams and the 100 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 2: tools to produce amazing and amazing experience for every one 101 00:05:53,760 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 2: of our customers, so they keep coming back forever. So 102 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: and I'm saying to you, you know, I think if 103 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: you just told that to his face for once, then 104 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 2: we wouldn't all keep dancing around this problem that's really 105 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: making us not very functional across these two departments. And 106 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: you know, you keep telling complaining to me about it, 107 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 2: but you don't tell him about it. And I'm not 108 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 2: going to tell him about it. I don't want to 109 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 2: work for him, So like this is wasting our time. 110 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 2: Just go go for a walk, go sit down with 111 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: that person. Go this isn't working very well. How can 112 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: we do it differently? 113 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: Right? 114 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 2: And so there's you know, the thing is, it's funny 115 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: because you haven't mentioned this yet, but a lot of 116 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: people read my book and they think, wow, she's such 117 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: a hard ass, you know that. They meet me and 118 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 2: they're like, oh, you're so warm and friendly. I'm like, 119 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: I'm not talking about being unkind. I'm just talking about 120 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: telling the truth. It doesn't have to be negative. 121 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I guess what you're saying is, but it's 122 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: often kind to tell the truth then have something go unsaid, 123 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: or just talk about something behind their back as opposed 124 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: to their face. 125 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 2: Don't you think so? I mean, don't you think so? 126 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 2: You know? For me, when I've watched you know, Sky, 127 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: I've been doing this for thirty five years and I've 128 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: watched human behavior, There's two things that are really painful emotions. 129 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: One of them is shame, right that you did something 130 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: that you're just embarrassed or humiliated about, and it's a 131 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: really hard emotion to deal with. And the other one 132 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: is surprise, Like you know, when something happens in like 133 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: every you feel like everybody knew but you, which kind 134 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: of leads to shame, right, And so why would anybody 135 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: want to make another person feel either one of those things? 136 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: And the way to get ahead of both of those 137 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: things is just to be honest when the situation is small. 138 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: Hello, it's me again. I just love hearing Patty talk 139 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: about this stuff, and she makes such a compelling case 140 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: for being honest. I particularly like what she says right 141 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: at the end of this clip about honesty helping people 142 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: actually avoid feeling embarrassed or shame or surprised, because it's 143 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: an interesting way to think about giving hard feedback. I 144 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: guess because generally, when you were thinking about giving a 145 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: workmate or someone on your team negative or constructive feedback 146 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,719 Speaker 1: at work, I think the first thing you feel is 147 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 1: really uncomfortable or anxious, and then you worry about how 148 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: it's going to make the other person feel. But the 149 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: irony is is that by being honest straight away when 150 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: the situation is just small, it leads to far less 151 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: negative emotions over the longer term for both parties. Really, 152 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 1: So that is it for today's show. If you like 153 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: this excerpt, you might want to listen to my full 154 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: chain with Patty, which I'll link to in the show notes. 155 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: And if you're enjoying how I work, I'd love it 156 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: if you could take five seconds to leave a review 157 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to this show. 158 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for every review that is left. It 159 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: is just so so wonderful to get feedback like that 160 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: from listeners. So that is all for today and I 161 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: will see you next time.