WEBVTT - The men on trial for 9/11

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is the daily This is the daily.

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<v Speaker 1>Ohs oh, now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Tuesday,

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<v Speaker 2>the sixth of August.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm emma, i'm lucy. Last week there was a surprising

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<v Speaker 1>new chapter in a very long story. The man who

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<v Speaker 1>has admitted to being the architect of the nine to

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<v Speaker 1>eleven attacks and two of his alleged accomplices agreed to

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<v Speaker 1>a plea deal in order to avoid the death penalty.

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<v Speaker 1>The men would plead guilty to charges of murder. But

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<v Speaker 1>then over the weekend, the White House intervened. In today's

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<v Speaker 1>deep dive, we'll explain the lead up to the historic

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<v Speaker 1>plea deal and how it was overturned. But first the headlines.

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<v Speaker 2>The ASX two hundred, which includes Australia's two hundred biggest

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<v Speaker 2>publicly listed companies, dropped by nearly four percent on Monday.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the worst single day drop since the early stages

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<v Speaker 2>of COVID in May twenty twenty. It's the second consecutive

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<v Speaker 2>day of uncertainty after markets closed two point one percent

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<v Speaker 2>behind on Friday. It follows weaker than expected job stata

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<v Speaker 2>out of the US, which prompted global fears of a

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<v Speaker 2>looming recession, plunging global markets by over one hundred billion

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<v Speaker 2>dollars in a single day of trading. Japan's stock market

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<v Speaker 2>is amongst the hardest hit, with the index that tracks

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<v Speaker 2>the two hundred and twenty five biggest companies in Japan,

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<v Speaker 2>the NIKEY two two five, plunging twelve point four percent

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<v Speaker 2>in its worst ever day. Here in Australia, the RBA

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<v Speaker 2>will announce their monthly decision on interest rates later today.

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<v Speaker 1>Fewer than six percent of species caught in New South

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<v Speaker 1>Wales shark nets over the summer where target white and

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<v Speaker 1>tiger sharks. In New South Wales, shark nets are used

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<v Speaker 1>at over fifty beaches from September until the end of April.

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<v Speaker 1>An annual report from the New South Wales Department of

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<v Speaker 1>Primary Industries this week shows that of two hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>fifty five animals caught in mashing, including ninety rays, twenty

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<v Speaker 1>nine turtles, six dolphins and one whale, thirty six percent

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<v Speaker 1>were released alive. The nets caught fifteen animals from target species,

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<v Speaker 1>including twelve white sharks and three tiger sharks. The remaining

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<v Speaker 1>animals were from other species of sharks, including gray nurses

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<v Speaker 1>which are endangered. Last week, the state government announced it

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<v Speaker 1>will remove the nets a month early next year on

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<v Speaker 1>thirty one March twenty twenty five, to increase protections for

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<v Speaker 1>marine species.

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<v Speaker 2>The Australian Security Intelligence Organization that's AZO has raised the

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<v Speaker 2>national terrorism threat level from possible to probable. Speaking alongside

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<v Speaker 2>AZO chief Mike Burgess and Attorney General Mark Dreyfus yesterday,

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<v Speaker 2>Prime Minister Anthony Albanezi said the decision followed advice from

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<v Speaker 2>governments around the world who are quote concerned about youth

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<v Speaker 2>and online radicalization and the rise of a new mixed ideoligeez.

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<v Speaker 2>Albanzi reassured Australians that probable does not mean inevitable, nor

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<v Speaker 2>does it mean there's an imminent threat. It comes after

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<v Speaker 2>the terror level was downgraded for the first time in

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<v Speaker 2>eight years in November twenty twenty two.

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<v Speaker 1>And today's good news nearly twenty thousand guns have been

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<v Speaker 1>surrendered to the WA government during the first five months

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<v Speaker 1>of its voluntary gun buyback program. It comes ahead of

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<v Speaker 1>new legislation in the state to limit the number of

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<v Speaker 1>guns a person can lawfully own. Licensed gun owners can

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<v Speaker 1>receive up to one thousand dollars if they hand in

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<v Speaker 1>their weapon at any WA police station, under a scheme

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<v Speaker 1>set to wrap up at the end of this month.

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<v Speaker 1>Other changes include regular mandatory health assessments for gun owners

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<v Speaker 1>and compulsory training for all prospective gun license holders.

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<v Speaker 2>Lucy, there have been some pretty remarkable developments in recent

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<v Speaker 2>days surrounding the man who said he's responsible for the

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<v Speaker 2>nine to eleven attack. Now, this story has been going

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<v Speaker 2>on so long that when we brought it up with

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<v Speaker 2>the Daily OS team, we learned that some of them

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<v Speaker 2>weren't even born when nine to eleven happened in two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand and one. So given that humbling fact, maybe we

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<v Speaker 2>need to start at the beginning here.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, whether or not you even consider nine

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<v Speaker 1>to eleven the beginning of this story is kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a matter for historians, but we have to start somewhere,

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<v Speaker 1>so we'll start there. On eleven September two thousand and one,

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<v Speaker 1>terrorists from the Islamist extremist group Al Qaeda hijacked four

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<v Speaker 1>commercial US flights. Two were deliberately crashed into New York's

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<v Speaker 1>World Trade Center aka the Twin Towers, killing around three

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<v Speaker 1>thousand people. One of the planes crashed into the US

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<v Speaker 1>Department of Defense in Virginia aka the Pentagon, killing one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and eighty four people, and then passengers and crew

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<v Speaker 1>successfully diverted the fourth plane from its planned target, the

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<v Speaker 1>US capital of Washington, DC. It crashed in a field

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<v Speaker 1>in pennsylv killing everyone on board.

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<v Speaker 2>That's flight ninety three that some people might have heard

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<v Speaker 2>about or seen that movie, But it's really hard to

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<v Speaker 2>imagine how the two thousands might have gone if this

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<v Speaker 2>didn't happen. You know, nine to eleven is so deeply

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<v Speaker 2>ingrained in the minds of every country in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure it's fair to say it's impacted national and

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<v Speaker 2>global security. It changed the way we bored a plane.

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<v Speaker 2>It changed the way that aviation worked around the world.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly. That day is kind of like you can call

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<v Speaker 1>it an inflection point where everything that came after was

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<v Speaker 1>different to everything that came before. The US, especially where

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<v Speaker 1>these attacks happened, developed a kind of with US or

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<v Speaker 1>against US relationship to the rest of the world. I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's fair to say. In the wake of the attacks,

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<v Speaker 1>then new President George W. Bush signed new US military

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<v Speaker 1>powers into law. That legislation gave officials the protections to

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<v Speaker 1>use quote all necessary and appropriate force against any person, organization,

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<v Speaker 1>or country found to be irresponsible for these attacks.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course, as you mentioned, that inflection point of

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<v Speaker 2>nine to eleven and these new legislative powers for US

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<v Speaker 2>officials and military and law enforcement, that takes us to

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<v Speaker 2>the next decades of war in the Middle East and

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<v Speaker 2>Central Asia exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>So, the Bush administration declared the Global War on Terror,

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<v Speaker 1>the US went to war with Afghanistan and then Iraq.

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<v Speaker 1>Several other countries, including Australia, followed suit. Meanwhile, the Central

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<v Speaker 1>Intelligence Agency, so that's the US's intelligence agency for external threats,

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<v Speaker 1>the FBI being internal cases. The CIA led a decade

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<v Speaker 1>long man hunt for al Qaeda founder Osama bin Laden,

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<v Speaker 1>who was killed by US forces in Pakistan in twenty eleven.

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<v Speaker 1>Dozens of others were arrested during this time over suspected

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<v Speaker 1>ties to the terrorist group of whom is kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the man of the hour, Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, who will

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<v Speaker 1>call KSM. He's really the man at the center of

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<v Speaker 1>the past week's developments.

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<v Speaker 2>So that is a very broad overview to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>get us up to speed everything we need to know

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<v Speaker 2>about these latest developments. What can you tell me about KSM,

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<v Speaker 2>the man at the center of this.

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<v Speaker 1>He was a senior leader in al Qaeda. He was

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<v Speaker 1>captured by the CIA in Pakistan in two thousand and three,

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<v Speaker 1>and two of his alleged accomplices, Whalid bin Attash and

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<v Speaker 1>Mustafa al Hasawi, were also arrested in two thousand and three.

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<v Speaker 1>They were then transferred to the US military prison at

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<v Speaker 1>Guantanamo Bay three years later in two thousand and six,

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<v Speaker 1>and they've been there ever since.

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<v Speaker 2>Guantanamo Bay, of course, is in Cuba. I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>probably the kind of place that comes up in news

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<v Speaker 2>coverage or when we're talking historically about nine to eleven,

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<v Speaker 2>but not everyone might actually understand what it is, what

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<v Speaker 2>its purpose is, What do we need to know about

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<v Speaker 2>Guantanamo Bay.

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<v Speaker 1>Guantanamo Bay is a prison that was set up in

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<v Speaker 1>the wake of nine to eleven. It's held around eight

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<v Speaker 1>hundred detainees over its lifetime, and about thirty are still there,

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<v Speaker 1>some of whom have never been charged with a crime.

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<v Speaker 1>At the Guantanamo complex, there's also a court to try

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<v Speaker 1>people charged with mostly crimes relating to nine to eleven,

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<v Speaker 1>but that is something that will come back to later.

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<v Speaker 1>Human rights groups including Amnesty International, have raised concerns over

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<v Speaker 1>the ongoing detention of several prisoners without fair trials. In

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and seven, while in detention at Guantanamo, KSM

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<v Speaker 1>admitted to authorities that he was the architect of the

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<v Speaker 1>nine to eleven attacks.

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<v Speaker 2>So two thousand and one, nine to eleven, KSM is captured,

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<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and three, held in Guantanamo, and he

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<v Speaker 2>admits to his involvement in the attacks to authorities in

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and seven, How do we get to twenty

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<v Speaker 2>to a plea deal, a pre trial agreement, but no

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<v Speaker 2>movement in the meantime? What happened in those middle years?

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<v Speaker 1>There's a crucial element we haven't touched on yet, and

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<v Speaker 1>that is how the CIA got information out of KSM

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<v Speaker 1>and other people it arrested. In the years after nine

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<v Speaker 1>to eleven. The CIA created a program which it called

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<v Speaker 1>enhanced Interrogation Techniques. This has later been described as torture.

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<v Speaker 2>So what do we know about the actual capture of

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<v Speaker 2>KSM and the years between that capture and the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of confession In two thousand and.

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<v Speaker 1>Seven, in the weeks after KSM was captured by the CIA,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm really just going to focus on KSM, but

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<v Speaker 1>you can safely extend what I'm talking about to many

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<v Speaker 1>of the other people who were captured by the CAA

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<v Speaker 1>during this time. So, in short, he was tortured for

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<v Speaker 1>a period of a few weeks that we're aware of

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<v Speaker 1>that we have documentation to support. During this time, he

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<v Speaker 1>was awake for seven and a half days at a stretch,

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<v Speaker 1>and was waterboarded one hundred and eighty three times over

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<v Speaker 1>the course of two weeks in what internal CIA documents

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<v Speaker 1>described as quote, a series of near drownings. For those

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<v Speaker 1>who don't know, waterboarding is a form of torture that

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<v Speaker 1>simulates drowning, where a person has water poured on their face,

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<v Speaker 1>into their nose and mouth while they're unable to move.

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<v Speaker 2>Intelligence agencies like the CIA, you know, global spy agencies

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<v Speaker 2>from anywhere in the world are not traditionally forthcoming or

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<v Speaker 2>transparent about their activities, particularly as it relates to terrorism

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<v Speaker 2>terror suspects, that being such a sensitive area of security concern.

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<v Speaker 2>So how do we know all of this about the CIA?

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<v Speaker 1>The reason we know all of this is because of

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<v Speaker 1>a report released in twenty fourteen by the US Senate

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<v Speaker 1>Intelligence Committee, which oversees the CIA. In fact, what we

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<v Speaker 1>know is from the report's executs summary, the only section

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<v Speaker 1>that's been made public, and parts of it are redacted,

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<v Speaker 1>literally have black lines drawn through them. It's about seven

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<v Speaker 1>hundred pages long. I've gone through all of this because

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<v Speaker 1>the Senate report, which gives us the information about KSM

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<v Speaker 1>being tortured, also found that under these circumstances, the information

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<v Speaker 1>he gave the CIA was in many cases one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>percent false. At one point he admitted he quote simply

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<v Speaker 1>told his interrogators what he thought they wanted to hear.

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<v Speaker 1>The report puts it pretty simply, quote the use of

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<v Speaker 1>the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques was not an effective means

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<v Speaker 1>of obtaining accurate information.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So with what we gleamed from that report, the

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<v Speaker 2>idea that KSM's confession to being this so called mastermind

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<v Speaker 2>of nine to eleven is then called into question because

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<v Speaker 2>of the circumstances under which he gave that information. Up

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<v Speaker 2>now it's for a trial to determine his guilt. So

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<v Speaker 2>has that report influenced these proceedings.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been one factor for sure. International criminal cases are

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<v Speaker 1>already really lengthy proceedings, and even assuming the CIA arrests

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<v Speaker 1>KSM in two thousand and three, takes him straight to

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<v Speaker 1>Guantanamo and tries him. It still might have taken several

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<v Speaker 1>years to reach a trial, let alone a judgment on

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<v Speaker 1>the three thousand murders that he and his alleged accomplices

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<v Speaker 1>are charged with. But torture has been a serious complicating factor,

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<v Speaker 1>and the US government has been trying to proceed to

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<v Speaker 1>a trial but has had difficulty working out how evidence

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<v Speaker 1>given after he endured torture should be interpreted in court.

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<v Speaker 1>A trial date was actually set and then delayed due

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<v Speaker 1>to COVID, and in March twenty twenty two, discussions began

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<v Speaker 1>to possibly avoid a trial by having KSM, Wilid bin Attash,

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<v Speaker 1>and Mustafa al Hasawi plead guilty and be sentenced to

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<v Speaker 1>life in prison rather than the death penalty.

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<v Speaker 2>So last week we had a development on those discussions.

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<v Speaker 1>What happened, So those discussions came to fruition when it

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<v Speaker 1>was announced that this plea deal had been agreed to

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<v Speaker 1>and in a letter to families of nine to eleven victims,

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<v Speaker 1>the Pentagon confirmed the prisoners would plead guilty and be

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<v Speaker 1>sentenced to life in jail.

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<v Speaker 2>So when this broke last week. It was a really

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<v Speaker 2>significant headline, the idea that these suspects who have been

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<v Speaker 2>in detention for twenty plus years, had reached a deal,

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<v Speaker 2>reached an agreement with US officials, but then the White

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<v Speaker 2>House intervened. It seems like the government wasn't as involved

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<v Speaker 2>in this plea deal as maybe we thought. So who

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<v Speaker 2>was behind the workings of that agreement and why was

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<v Speaker 2>it scrapped?

0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.840
<v Speaker 1>In terms of the workings of the agreement, there are

0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:57.319
<v Speaker 1>the US government prosecutors representing the people of the United States,

0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.680
<v Speaker 1>and then there are the defense attorneys for or the

0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.840
<v Speaker 1>men involved. Then, in terms of Guantanamo Bay itself and

0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.640
<v Speaker 1>the court there that I mentioned earlier, the US Secretary

0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.320
<v Speaker 1>of Defense, Lloyd Austin, had delegated oversight of the proceedings

0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:15.040
<v Speaker 1>to a military lawyer called Susan Escalia. That doesn't mean

0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.720
<v Speaker 1>she was the judge. There's actually been several judges because

0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.080
<v Speaker 1>this has dragged on so long. But she was kind

0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.280
<v Speaker 1>of the managing director of all the cases ongoing at Guantanamo,

0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.160
<v Speaker 1>and she had the power to sign off on plea

0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:30.080
<v Speaker 1>deals and decide whether the death sentence could be applied.

0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.880
<v Speaker 1>The New York Times has previously reported that President Joe

0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.400
<v Speaker 1>Biden and his administration, of which Lloyd Austin is a part,

0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.680
<v Speaker 1>have been hesitant to approve a plea deal because there

0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:45.160
<v Speaker 1>are so many different opinions on how this should proceed. Now,

0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:50.360
<v Speaker 1>Austin has intervened in Escalier's decision, saying the responsibility to

0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.120
<v Speaker 1>accept a plea deal is so big in this case

0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.560
<v Speaker 1>that he, as a Secretary of Defense, should be the

0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.160
<v Speaker 1>only one to sign off on it, kind of walking

0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:03.160
<v Speaker 1>back that responsibility that he'd given her. White House representatives

0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.400
<v Speaker 1>have also said they didn't know this was going to

0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:06.760
<v Speaker 1>be announced ahead of time.

0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 2>So you have this military lawyer who is assigned essentially

0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:16.080
<v Speaker 2>this job at Guantanamo Bay to manage proceedings of the

0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:20.280
<v Speaker 2>detainees still held there, the thirty detainees there, those powers

0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.160
<v Speaker 2>she's been given by the US Secretary of Defense, and

0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.520
<v Speaker 2>she makes a decision about KSM and his accomplices in

0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:30.080
<v Speaker 2>terms of this plea deal, But that is then backflipped.

0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.040
<v Speaker 2>Do you think that that is because of the response

0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:35.520
<v Speaker 2>to this deal when it was announced that there was

0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.800
<v Speaker 2>just so much pushback, like do we feel an actual

0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.440
<v Speaker 2>mistake has been made here in the process or rather

0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.600
<v Speaker 2>that it is more about how the American people have responded.

0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 2>Given the sensitivities of this story, particularly in the hearts

0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:49.120
<v Speaker 2>of Americans.

0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:52.320
<v Speaker 1>It's complicated, and I would say that the response hasn't

0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:57.960
<v Speaker 1>been one sided. Certainly, several Republicans, including Republican Speaker of

0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.120
<v Speaker 1>the House Mike Johnson, said that this plea deal shouldn't

0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.200
<v Speaker 1>have been allowed to go ahead, and one support group

0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:08.080
<v Speaker 1>of nine to eleven families has said these men should

0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.680
<v Speaker 1>face the death penalty. However, they're not a monolith, and

0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.920
<v Speaker 1>there is at least one other nine to eleven support

0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.480
<v Speaker 1>group who have been in favor of the plea deal

0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.960
<v Speaker 1>going through, basically saying this is making the best out

0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.080
<v Speaker 1>of a really bad scenario and kind of bringing it

0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:25.880
<v Speaker 1>to a close after all this time.

0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:30.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm sure after twenty something years that for many

0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.560
<v Speaker 2>of those families the idea of reaching a kind of

0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.160
<v Speaker 2>peaceful end to all of this uncertainty could be desirable.

0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 2>But what does this mean for the case now the

0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.200
<v Speaker 2>plea deal's been scrapped, So what happens.

0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.120
<v Speaker 1>It's honestly still kind of unclear. The New York Times

0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.840
<v Speaker 1>has reported that those pre trial proceedings that have been

0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:54.360
<v Speaker 1>going on since at least twenty twelve will continue. Lloyd

0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.240
<v Speaker 1>Austin's order also means it's likely the death penalty is

0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:01.640
<v Speaker 1>now still available, but it's still not clear when an

0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.399
<v Speaker 1>actual trial for these attacks from two thousand and one

0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.520
<v Speaker 1>will actually happen. We've gone now from a strong likelihood

0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:11.720
<v Speaker 1>that this was going to come to some kind of

0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.359
<v Speaker 1>conclusion this year, back to the open ended timeline that

0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.000
<v Speaker 1>existed until last week.

0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:22.520
<v Speaker 2>Wow, Lucy, an incredibly complex timeline. Thank you so much

0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:25.480
<v Speaker 2>for taking us through it. As always, we will keep

0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.160
<v Speaker 2>you updated on this one as we find out more.

0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.880
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. If

0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:34.520
<v Speaker 2>you liked it and if you learn something from it,

0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.480
<v Speaker 2>please feel free to share it with a friend. Don't

0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:40.199
<v Speaker 2>forget to follow or subscribe wherever you are listening to

0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.360
<v Speaker 2>the podcast or if you're watching us over on our YouTube.

0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.439
<v Speaker 2>We'll be back again tomorrow, but until then, have a

0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.680
<v Speaker 2>great day.

0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.160
<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Adunda

0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:57.200
<v Speaker 1>bungelung Caalcuttin woman from Gadigo Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.440
<v Speaker 1>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:03.080
<v Speaker 1>Gatgirl Piece and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest

0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:05.960
<v Speaker 1>rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the

0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:08.760
<v Speaker 1>first peoples of these countries, both past and present.