Speaker 1: Hey there, everybody. Welcome to not Another Crime podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm Georgia Love, I'm.
Speaker 1: Sammy Peterson, I am a journalist, i am not and
Speaker 1: today we are joined by someone who's absolutely incredible. We're
Speaker 1: both a big fan of this person and overjoyed. We
Speaker 1: haven't done many zooms in our time, but we are overjoyed.
Speaker 3: I'm going to.
Speaker 1: Use it again. Overjoyed to be with the amazing Elizabeth Lamee. Welcome.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I am overjoyed
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 1: The only person who hasn't said that they're overjoyed is Georgia.
Speaker 2: No, because now it will sound like I've made it up.
Speaker 2: But I'm going to wait for the moment where i
Speaker 2: feel overwhelmed with joy and I'm going to drop it out.
Speaker 3: Yes and well, just Sam, you and I will decide
Speaker 3: if it's authentic or well, Gradio, that's the segment.
Speaker 1: We have a buzzer where we can buzz in it.
Speaker 1: I'll go with any line.
Speaker 3: This is my first true crime podcast, which I'm so
Speaker 3: excited to do and thankful that you two woke up
Speaker 3: early I think to do this with Hi. Thank you
Speaker 3: very much.
Speaker 2: We didn't need to make that such a big deal,
Speaker 2: but we did because we're very tired.
Speaker 1: We've gone on and on about how early we were
Speaker 1: is really a rude way to start a podcast.
Speaker 2: We've discovered there are very few people who we would
Speaker 2: do that for, and you, Elizabeth, absolutely one of them.
Speaker 2: So listeners will recognize or may recognize your name from
Speaker 2: your very own podcast, which I know you have many,
Speaker 2: but one in particular has absolutely blown up recently. It's
Speaker 2: one of those ones that all of a sudden you
Speaker 2: hear it everywhere, everyone's talking about it. You're going, what
Speaker 2: what is this? Bethstead? Can you just give us your
Speaker 2: elevated pitch about this podcast? Bethstead?
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much. So we my husband and
Speaker 3: I have been podcasting since twenty ten. Really the first
Speaker 3: podcast very Were. We got in real early by accident.
Speaker 3: You know. We always joke about we're very good at
Speaker 3: putting energy towards things that are not monetizable, So that
Speaker 3: was what it was. So we had a podcast and
Speaker 3: it developed into four different podcasts by twenty sixteen. It's
Speaker 3: when the story happened, and what happened was something crazy,
Speaker 3: and it involves parasocial relationships and long story short, A
Speaker 3: fan of ours was Monica Padman, who you know from
Speaker 3: Armchair Expert, and she asked us one day why we
Speaker 3: stopped podcasting in like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, and we
Speaker 3: told her this story and she was like, we have
Speaker 3: to make a podcast. So the podcast is her interviewing
Speaker 3: us about this story of this wild thing that happens.
Speaker 3: And it was so crazy that we got the lapd involved.
Speaker 3: At the time we stopped all of our podcasts, we
Speaker 3: like lived with a new level of kind of distrust
Speaker 3: for a long time, and then in doing this podcast,
Speaker 3: Monica got involved and became kind of a Nancy Drew
Speaker 3: and the twists and turns continued. So it's a ride.
Speaker 1: I think it absolutely is. When when you stopped podcasting
Speaker 1: for a while, was that just you know, was it
Speaker 1: hard to kind of get back in and want to
Speaker 1: tell this story? If that was something that made you
Speaker 1: want to stop podcasting in general.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And actually yes it was. We were like moths
Speaker 3: to a flame. And so Andy and I started our
Speaker 3: podcast back up again, and I think twenty twenty two
Speaker 3: it's called Nobody's Listening, right, and it's just him and I,
Speaker 3: but we have safety kind of at some place where
Speaker 3: we're not interacting with listeners. Really, we changed the format
Speaker 3: a little bit to feel better about things, but we
Speaker 3: have also learned we can't not podcast. As you guys know,
Speaker 3: it's a it's a it's an intense drug. So but
Speaker 3: in the making of this podcast, we made it over
Speaker 3: two years, and all three of us at different times
Speaker 3: brought to the group, I don't know if we should
Speaker 3: do this, Like, I don't know if we should put
Speaker 3: it out. It feels dangerous, and so that was definitely
Speaker 3: a big part of the conversation. I think you'll hear
Speaker 3: it on the podcast, to us debating if what we're
Speaker 3: doing is so stupid still still might be. We you know,
Speaker 3: have yet to know.
Speaker 2: So for people who haven't listened to it, where we
Speaker 2: might be sounding really vague, we're going to do a
Speaker 2: bit of a spoilers section later on for anyone who
Speaker 2: wants to hear it. But that's why we're being a
Speaker 2: bit vague about this story.
Speaker 1: But it sounds like we haven't listened to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it sounds like we're those those terrible interviewers
Speaker 2: who go, so, just tell us what it's about and
Speaker 2: then we'll no.
Speaker 3: I appreciate I appreciate that. Actually, I can give a
Speaker 3: little more detail When you said elevator pitch just for anyone.
Speaker 3: The thing that happened is that people would write into
Speaker 3: our podcast for our very unqualified advice. Andy and I
Speaker 3: had no business giving anyone advice, but we did. And
Speaker 3: at the time, I was a brand new mom to
Speaker 3: two tiny humans and working through some stuff, and I
Speaker 3: developed relationships with especially young women who needed help. And
Speaker 3: one of those young women for the title, was named Beth,
Speaker 3: and that relationship took on. It's a life of its own,
Speaker 3: and lessons were learned. But yeah, so that's kind of
Speaker 3: the jumping off point for the story with no spoilers.
Speaker 1: And also, like you know, this was a very different
Speaker 1: kind of podcast for you. So you said before that
Speaker 1: this is your first true crime podcast, is as being,
Speaker 1: you know, doing a more documentary series. I don't know
Speaker 1: why I said that so strangely, it is very early.
Speaker 1: I will say it again, I am ever joyed to
Speaker 1: be here, Elizabeth, But the joy the documentary style. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a conversation between you three. But was that something
Speaker 1: you know that you've always wanted to do or was
Speaker 1: this a completely new avenue where you never kind of
Speaker 1: thought that you would. It's like true crime, kind of
Speaker 1: a vein of a true crime story, really it is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, never would have one or two.
Speaker 1: I am.
Speaker 3: I'm a TV writer, so I do write shows, and
Speaker 3: I did. I was on a show called A Million
Speaker 3: Low Things for a few years and one of the
Speaker 3: episodes that I wrote in that show for like our
Speaker 3: beloved younger female character played by Lizzie Green, She's Incredible,
Speaker 3: was based on something that happened to me. And the
Speaker 3: way we told the story was very similar to the
Speaker 3: way we crafted the story for this, where the audience
Speaker 3: is learning what's happening at the same time that the
Speaker 3: character is. So I think I had I think I
Speaker 3: love to tell stories obviously, and you know that's my
Speaker 3: my jam. So it was exciting for me and all
Speaker 3: of us. It was really a collaboration, but to figure
Speaker 3: out the best way to lay out the story to
Speaker 3: tell it, and also the three of us just have
Speaker 3: fun chemistry, and so I feel like, I mean, it's
Speaker 3: a creepy story. It's not like all fun and games
Speaker 3: or anybody any stretch, But we I think brought kind
Speaker 3: of of just our own style to it and didn't
Speaker 3: want we wanted that to definitely be in place, so
Speaker 3: a lot of thought was given to how it's coming across,
Speaker 3: and it took a long time to make, and it
Speaker 3: definitely flexed muscles I didn't have or didn't feel like
Speaker 3: I needed to have. But yeah, but now I'm like,
Speaker 3: it was really fulfilling. And there were some choices we made,
Speaker 3: like episode eight, I don't know if you remember what
Speaker 3: that one was, the crafting of something where you know,
Speaker 3: we made the choice to keep it very like it's
Speaker 3: all there, very lightly edited, if at all. So those
Speaker 3: were choices that we knew like some people wouldn't like
Speaker 3: and some people would, but we got to make it
Speaker 3: the way we wanted it, which was unlike in TV,
Speaker 3: also so fulfilling because you just get to make the
Speaker 3: thing and put it out, which is so cool.
Speaker 1: When you when you started as well, did you kind
Speaker 1: of know where you were going to go with it?
Speaker 1: Was it just you know, the germ of the idea
Speaker 1: was like, we're just going to see what happens, or
Speaker 1: you know, like, were you kind of because you sound
Speaker 1: quite a terrified of where it's going to go? Is
Speaker 1: that is that something where you thought, oh no, if
Speaker 1: we get two years into this, because I kind of
Speaker 1: wonder with ending sometimes is that, you know, sometimes you
Speaker 1: can I've made documentaries in the past where you know,
Speaker 1: you get to a certain point and then you go, oh, no,
Speaker 1: there's no ending, like you know, unless for something. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like you know you're kind of going, what's the ending.
Speaker 1: Did you kind of worry at some point that it
Speaker 1: would just be well, that was good in a good
Speaker 1: two years?
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I mean I think that I think that
Speaker 3: was definitely concern. It still felt like a story that
Speaker 3: was worthy of telling. And but setting out I had
Speaker 3: like I created a rough outliner and everyone we'd in
Speaker 3: and it honestly staged pretty true to it until it
Speaker 3: took on a life of its own, and then the
Speaker 3: outline kind of evolved as we went. So, but we
Speaker 3: kind of we had a very loose framework and then
Speaker 3: in each episode, like we kind of knew that the
Speaker 3: general direction we were heading, and I think Monica did
Speaker 3: such a great job of like leading us through that
Speaker 3: each episode. But the framework was pretty adhered to, and
Speaker 3: it kind of had to be because there was so
Speaker 3: much information to get out and if you would believe it,
Speaker 3: like that wasn't even all of the inform, you know,
Speaker 3: it's we still had to be discerning and but yeah,
Speaker 3: that but there was definitely like we had alternative endings
Speaker 3: that were options, I guess for us to kind of
Speaker 3: explore and talk about things, but the ending then just
Speaker 3: happened to us.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I believe one of the endings was a dance,
Speaker 1: a dance between you three.
Speaker 2: I would have been overjoyed to see that. However, it is.
Speaker 3: Genuine, I don't know, harder to see the dance.
Speaker 2: And that's why we brought you here today. Elizabeth on
Speaker 2: camera five six.
Speaker 3: For you, I am wearing my Bob Fossy like all
Speaker 3: black perfect.
Speaker 2: She's one of mine.
Speaker 1: For parasocial relationships, that's a big theme in the podcast.
Speaker 1: Has it kind of changed the way you post on Instagram?
Speaker 1: Has it changed the way that you kind of you know,
Speaker 1: live your life in a way online.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and doing this just validated that so much, this
Speaker 3: thing happening. I scribed my kids from Instagram. I'm like
Speaker 3: very careful about being like not really sharing where we
Speaker 3: live exactly, and if we go somewhere, like I don't
Speaker 3: post about it until we're not there, you know, things
Speaker 3: like that. So and especially being a parent, I think.
Speaker 3: You know, we had a fellow Aussie on as like
Speaker 3: an expert speaking to us in the podcast, and she
Speaker 3: was so great and she just really kind of validated
Speaker 3: my need to protect my kids. And it's hard as
Speaker 3: podcasters because it's they are our life. And even on Instagram,
Speaker 3: I feel bad sometimes because I'm like, they're the main
Speaker 3: thing in my life. But if you looked at my
Speaker 3: Instagram you would think I'm like just about cleavage and no,
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2: You can follow Elizabeth.
Speaker 3: Actually I think it's probably like coffee and I don't
Speaker 3: know what, but but that's not it's important actually still coffees, yes,
Speaker 3: but yeah, I just am really And now with AI,
Speaker 3: we didn't even get into that. But the stuff with
Speaker 3: AI where they can like take someone's face and basically
Speaker 3: have them doing anything, yeah, makes me very fearful for
Speaker 3: like adolescence, you know, coming up, and so I'm very
Speaker 3: I'm not glad this happened, but i am glad for
Speaker 3: that lesson where I don't think I would you know,
Speaker 3: I don't think that I would have taken those precautions
Speaker 3: if it work so.
Speaker 1: Well, because parent social relationships are like you know, Monica
Speaker 1: Padman Kind of had one with you two, like you know,
Speaker 1: the it is even though she'd met you. It is
Speaker 1: weird that, like, I had a parasocial relationship with you
Speaker 1: through listening to the podcast, and I was like, I'll
Speaker 1: just reach out and ask her on the podcast, and
Speaker 1: you know, you kind of do something else. Yeah, yeah, No,
Speaker 1: you're a little bit worried, Elizabeth. As the end of
Speaker 1: the culp No, but there is a there is a
Speaker 1: part where I'm a fan of podcasts and being you know,
Speaker 1: I do stand up and being in the comedy world.
Speaker 1: I know the people that do the podcast and I
Speaker 1: listen to mostly. But what I find weird is sometimes
Speaker 1: I'm having a conversation knowing a fact about them that
Speaker 1: they've just said that week on a podcast, And you
Speaker 1: kind of do have a more intimate relationship with people
Speaker 1: sometimes that you think you do.
Speaker 2: You think you do the relationship you actually have.
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you notice that in the in the wild
Speaker 1: when when you tour about, Like, did you notice that
Speaker 1: people like kind of had this parasocial relationship with you.
Speaker 1: Was that something that that kind of came up a.
Speaker 3: Bit with me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, when you're doing the podcast.
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny I feel like the only times
Speaker 3: I'm ever like recognized is when I'm with Monica. Yeah right,
Speaker 3: something is like oh podcasting, and you know, I think
Speaker 3: she experiences that all the time. I do have some
Speaker 3: friends who are so sweet to listen to our show,
Speaker 3: and so sometimes something will slip in and I'm like, oh, right,
Speaker 3: you know, and I think, as you two probably know
Speaker 3: it will actually you're still young and have neurons firing
Speaker 3: and stuff. But I forget what we talked about, like
Speaker 3: the second it's out of my mouth. So sometimes someone
Speaker 3: will bring something up and I'm like, when did I
Speaker 3: tell you that? You know that sort of thing where?
Speaker 3: But I too, I listen to podcasts. One of my
Speaker 3: friends podcasts, June Dian Raphael and Jessica Saint Clair have
Speaker 3: a great podcast called The Deep Dive. And my issue
Speaker 3: as someone who has both a real and parasocial relationship
Speaker 3: is I'm I cannot resist like live texting them as
Speaker 3: I'm listening, and they're like, oh my god, we recorded
Speaker 3: that like three weeks ago, Like I don't need to
Speaker 3: relive it with you, but it is. It is very interesting,
Speaker 3: and I do think because it's such an intimate medium,
Speaker 3: I understand because I'm on the other end of it,
Speaker 3: feeling like you know the person and almost like if
Speaker 3: they say something you don't agree with, you're disappointed in
Speaker 3: or we got we were talking about speaking of dancing,
Speaker 3: Andy and I spoke about dancing recently in a way
Speaker 3: that you know, we can be a little snarky sometimes
Speaker 3: and we're giving people shit, the people who basically like
Speaker 3: go out on the dance floor first and just go
Speaker 3: big yep. And the truth is like in my real life,
Speaker 3: I don't really care like everyone should dance, that they
Speaker 3: want to dance, but I think because people have expectations
Speaker 3: of us, some people were really upset that we were
Speaker 3: like dissing dancing the big dances.
Speaker 2: Well you can know exactly who was upset about that
Speaker 2: was the big dances.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we saw you busting some moves on the coldest before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I in that sense, I'm like, you probably
Speaker 3: wouldn't be that upset. I mean, in a way, it's flattering.
Speaker 3: It's like you care enough or like think of us
Speaker 3: a certain way enough to feel the need to take
Speaker 3: to your keyboard, you know, which I appreciate. But also
Speaker 3: it's like it's like they're your cousin or something they're
Speaker 3: like disappointed in you. But also they have the anonymity
Speaker 3: of the Internet, so it's just very interesting. And then
Speaker 3: of course, by and large, our fans are incredible, which
Speaker 3: is also why when all of this happened, it was
Speaker 3: really not expected at all. And unlike people like Monica
Speaker 3: and people have massive platforms, we have like a very
Speaker 3: you know, proud of it, but not like a huge, massive,
Speaker 3: popular podcast. It's medium small, I'd say, youth medium large.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm doing T shirt sizing, and so
Speaker 3: it's not like I feel like the bigger. It's the
Speaker 3: more kind of I don't know, like negativity jumps into
Speaker 3: the pool, which we haven't experienced really at all. We've
Speaker 3: been really lucky.
Speaker 1: Well, before we kind of get into the spoiler section,
Speaker 1: I thought it might be worth mentioning like a little
Speaker 1: bit more about the show. So, you know, one of
Speaker 1: the letters comes through with someone called Beth, and you
Speaker 1: had these letters that you were giving advice on and
Speaker 1: then you get some devastating news one day after helping
Speaker 1: Beth through some problems for a long time, and you
Speaker 1: find out the news that that Beth is Beth is
Speaker 1: in fact dead. You hear that from someone else.
Speaker 2: Oh no, spoilers, that's not written on the artwork and
Speaker 2: spoiler you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you find you find that out. And and so
Speaker 1: for you that that feeling of hearing that and it
Speaker 1: was a you know, you got really invested in in
Speaker 1: this story. How how did that kind of change, you know,
Speaker 1: the way that you were giving advice and did it
Speaker 1: just kind of completely change who you were in that moment?
Speaker 1: Because I can imagine that it's such a massive thing
Speaker 1: from you know, the way you describe your podcast as
Speaker 1: a median, small kind of podcast and then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden there's this huge, devastating thing that happened. It
Speaker 1: was that something that kind of changed you right away?
Speaker 1: How did you cope with with hearing that?
Speaker 2: Use?
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it definitely did. And it was really interesting
Speaker 3: doing the podcast. I went we went back through all
Speaker 3: of my correspondence with Beth that I hadn't looked at
Speaker 3: since that time, which was like eight years prior.
Speaker 1: Yeap.
Speaker 3: It definitely changed so much in I think, so this
Speaker 3: was our podcast called Totally Married, and I think you
Speaker 3: can probably hear it like we ended up staffing everything
Speaker 3: about a year later because well for multiple reasons, but
Speaker 3: I became way less confident giving advice to anyone for
Speaker 3: t regularly, like if it seemed like it was this
Speaker 3: actual situation that needed real advice. Hearing it back, I
Speaker 3: was pretty horrified at like some of the advice or
Speaker 3: this is so it's I was horrified in a way
Speaker 3: because we would give advice publicly on the podcast, and
Speaker 3: sometimes especially Andy would be like, get out, get out
Speaker 3: of the relationship, right, He'd just be very black and
Speaker 3: white about things, and I'd be like, well, And in
Speaker 3: this case, though, I was corresponding with her personally, and
Speaker 3: so there was like a gray area for me. But
Speaker 3: I was giving her big advice and I didn't know her.
Speaker 3: And it's weird, Like it's weird saying it now. I'm
Speaker 3: looking back and going, what the fuck was I doing.
Speaker 3: But I also think it's been interesting now that this
Speaker 3: has been out, Like a lot of people have waged
Speaker 3: about the fact that I was so postpartum and you're
Speaker 3: you don't have sleep, your hormones are everywhere, your you know,
Speaker 3: your sense of identity is just like it's just a
Speaker 3: crazy time. And so I almost feel like I didn't
Speaker 3: give that enough kind of credence and the I don't
Speaker 3: know if that's the right word, but you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it was. It was the time,
Speaker 3: it was the situation, it was that she had access
Speaker 3: to us in that way. And but yeah, it changed,
Speaker 3: I mean it changed everything.
Speaker 2: At what point did you realize there was a crime,
Speaker 2: there had had been a crime?
Speaker 3: Are we talking spoilers? Now, let's do it if you're
Speaker 3: happy to yeah, yep.
Speaker 2: So, dear listeners, turn off.
Speaker 3: Now if you if.
Speaker 2: You don't want to know, no, no, well don't turn off. Pause,
Speaker 2: go and listen to it. Ten episodes are best dead
Speaker 2: and then come back.
Speaker 3: So the we really didn't know it was a crime
Speaker 3: until we spoke with the LAPD detective. But what had
Speaker 3: happened was we got an email from Beth's account telling us,
Speaker 3: and it was from her brother Jason, that she had
Speaker 3: died by suicide. And I was devastated, and there very
Speaker 3: quickly Jason started becoming really aggressive and almost like accusing
Speaker 3: me of having some part in it and asking me
Speaker 3: if I was her therapist, which I at the time
Speaker 3: internalized as like, oh my god, I did have a
Speaker 3: part in this, Like, you know, it was really awful,
Speaker 3: and I really cared about her as well, and then
Speaker 3: in the meantime there were all these other listeners that
Speaker 3: I had also been corresponding with and dealing with. In
Speaker 3: our comment sect, we had a massive comments section. This
Speaker 3: was like back in the day when there was like
Speaker 3: live journals and people it was so it was like
Speaker 3: so much activity in her comments, and so I was
Speaker 3: getting to know people there also and moderating sometimes. And
Speaker 3: long story short, we my friend Hammy Sager. Actually it
Speaker 3: was her birthday yesterday. Yes. She pointed out that this
Speaker 3: was strange behavior from a brother whose sister just died
Speaker 3: by suicide to be going through her email, and that
Speaker 3: kind of lifted a veil to me, and I thought, oh,
Speaker 3: my gosh, is this something is something weird about this,
Speaker 3: And so what we did was we looked up Best's
Speaker 3: IP addresses linked to her comments on our website, and
Speaker 3: when you click on like it was a hyperlink, and
Speaker 3: when you click on it, all the comments she made
Speaker 3: or all the comments from that IP address would come up.
Speaker 3: And to her horror, it was Beth, it was these
Speaker 3: other characters, Natasha and Andrews, it was Frank, it was
Speaker 3: some others, And we realized that this was all one
Speaker 3: person who was acting as all these different people, so
Speaker 3: we'd been catfished pretty pretty good. I let'ld see pretty
Speaker 3: pretty thoroughly.
Speaker 1: Did you realize right away with the IPA dress, because
Speaker 1: it was making excuses saying, we all live in the
Speaker 1: same block of apartments and I've been suggesting it at
Speaker 1: our group gatherings and that's why it's the same IPAY dress.
Speaker 1: So there's lots of excuses there and hanging on to
Speaker 1: keep this line alive. Did you realize right away?
Speaker 3: We knew as soon as we saw that, and it
Speaker 3: was a real like, oh, this is all one person now.
Speaker 3: I still it took me a minute to kind of unravel,
Speaker 3: like I wondered, is was Beth acting as all one person? Who?
Speaker 3: I still thought that one of them was real? And
Speaker 3: didn't I think Andy, My husband more quickly jumped to like,
Speaker 3: there's someone behind this who's none of these people. No
Speaker 3: one died by suicide. There's no brother who's like bereft
Speaker 3: going through his sister's emails. And that's when we stopped responding.
Speaker 3: And that's when whoever did this basically was trying to
Speaker 3: clean up their mess they made and saying, oh, did
Speaker 3: you figure it out? By our ip addresses. It turns
Speaker 3: out we all lived together, which is so funny. Sam
Speaker 3: and Georgia like, how many barbecues do you hear of wherever?
Speaker 3: Listening to a podcast?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then going and commenting while they're still sitting
Speaker 2: around the barbecue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's beautiful listening party. It's lovely.
Speaker 3: I know. I wish I'm sad I miss the invite.
Speaker 3: I would have shown up.
Speaker 2: They would have loved it as well. They loved you, Elizabeth,
Speaker 2: they did. I found that part of it really interesting
Speaker 2: from a crime perspective of seeing the catfish really unraveled
Speaker 2: very quickly in terms of panicking and thinking that you
Speaker 2: had worked something out before you'd actually said that you had.
Speaker 2: And a lot of the crime stories we talk about,
Speaker 2: you know, be they very infamous murder stories or smaller
Speaker 2: things that we found out from things like podcasts that
Speaker 2: happened so often where people really unravel and panic and
Speaker 2: that and I suppose they panic and that's when things unravel.
Speaker 2: What was that like for you to witness and experience
Speaker 2: kind of watching this happen and knowing what to do
Speaker 2: or not while that was all unfollowing in real time?
Speaker 3: It was terrifying it was like because just we had
Speaker 3: no idea who this was. And we did figure out
Speaker 3: who we thought it was pretty pretty quickly. But during
Speaker 3: those couple of weeks while they were panicking, I was like,
Speaker 3: I mean we had our locks changed, which was insane.
Speaker 3: I was like, should we go stay in a hotel?
Speaker 3: We just we had a tiny, little one bedroom like
Speaker 3: bungalow in LA where you can easily figure out where
Speaker 3: we lived. I was like, oh my god, I've talked
Speaker 3: about my kids' daycare, which is across the street. I've
Speaker 3: mentioned their take care woman's by name, by name, and
Speaker 3: I was thinking, are they going to show up to
Speaker 3: the daycare and say, like, you know, Jennifer, are you Jennifer?
Speaker 3: And like I was so out of my mind with fear.
Speaker 3: And that's when we reached out to this detective at LAPD,
Speaker 3: like through a friend who has a security situation because
Speaker 3: they're celebrity, so they have like a special security person
Speaker 3: who's friends with this detective. Not really thinking there was
Speaker 3: a crime, because you know, you think of crimes as
Speaker 3: more you know, physical, and so I honestly just wanted
Speaker 3: to talk to him about like what we could best
Speaker 3: do to protect ourselves and potentially get it to stop.
Speaker 3: And that's ultimately what happened is this detective called this person.
Speaker 3: He didn't like there have been questions about this aspect
Speaker 3: of it. We had figured out who the person was
Speaker 3: with some location tagging locations of where they were and
Speaker 3: basically gave this detective a massive binder of everything and
Speaker 3: of the evidence we had. He wasn't like actually taking
Speaker 3: this on as a case and doing the detective work.
Speaker 3: He like, I filed a report and he was like,
Speaker 3: there is enough here if you wanted to. I don't
Speaker 3: even know what the terms are that you would know
Speaker 3: like file a crime or like get a warrant or
Speaker 3: whatever and.
Speaker 2: Like potentially be able to press charges if they can
Speaker 2: find enough evidence.
Speaker 3: I guess yeah, like get a warrant for this person's
Speaker 3: computers and work with their state authority. It was just like, no,
Speaker 3: I literally just wanted to stop, and so the detective
Speaker 3: just called this person and it stopped. But I always wondered, like, yeah,
Speaker 3: is this person going to show up? They seemed very obsessed.
Speaker 3: So that's not a good feeling.
Speaker 2: That's something I've been really interested to ask you about
Speaker 2: because it's there's so much trust involved. In this whole story,
Speaker 2: lad up to the point where you decided to do
Speaker 2: this podcast? Trust both ways. You know, you trusted Beth
Speaker 2: to be properly interacting with you. She trusted you. You know,
Speaker 2: this person trusted you not to press charges or get
Speaker 2: warrants around. Why did you feel it got to that
Speaker 2: point that you you trusted that they were just going
Speaker 2: to stop? You'd been so terrified, he said, you, you know,
Speaker 2: to describe your social media of your kids. But what
Speaker 2: was there just kind of some deep belief. Was it
Speaker 2: the parasocial relationship you'd had with this person, albeit through
Speaker 2: false identities online, that you did have that trust there
Speaker 2: with them?
Speaker 3: I never felt it until doing the full podcast. Now
Speaker 3: now I do. Sorry. I that's part of why we
Speaker 3: had to start doing the podcast is because I didn't.
Speaker 3: Anytime a question came in that was even like kind
Speaker 3: of interesting, I thought it was that this person and
Speaker 3: that makes for a really shitty podcast. I feel bad.
Speaker 3: Especially our patrons who are like supporting us were like,
Speaker 3: oh god, it's really good. Yeah, yeah, we're just like,
Speaker 3: I don't know. I do feel like all of my
Speaker 3: answers started to become like you should talk to a therapist.
Speaker 3: Like you shouldn't be reaching a yeah, but I and
Speaker 3: there was one question and I actually feel bad about
Speaker 3: it now, but I remember it came in and we
Speaker 3: publar on the podcast were like, I don't think this
Speaker 3: is real. And the person wrote in like it was
Speaker 3: a little unhinged also, but the person wrote in like
Speaker 3: so offended and you know, she was traumatized, and I
Speaker 3: was like certain, and there were other things like she
Speaker 3: used double spaces, she did all of these things that
Speaker 3: that person did. And now upon, I mean, I believe
Speaker 3: that it wasn't that person. So I do feel kind
Speaker 3: of bad looking back on that. But we were just
Speaker 3: so like hyper vigilant.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what did you not want to press charges or
Speaker 2: get the warrant? It's such a terrifying experience that you
Speaker 2: went through. What made you was it the feeling of
Speaker 2: not really thinking it had become a crime.
Speaker 3: Yet maybe I mean I feel like, uh, I had
Speaker 3: been reassured by the detective kind of that. And I
Speaker 3: think you hear this on the podcast. The people who
Speaker 3: do this sort of thing almost never, I mean there
Speaker 3: are exceptions, but almost never actually show up like they're
Speaker 3: kind of cowardly behind keyboards or whatever it is. And so,
Speaker 3: and I'm not in the business of like ruining people's
Speaker 3: lives or you know, I just like this person had
Speaker 3: a family. I didn't want to mess you know, I
Speaker 3: didn't want to ruin the family's life. They had nothing
Speaker 3: to do with this. And it wasn't a crime that
Speaker 3: was so horrific in my opinion that it like this
Speaker 3: person needed to be locked up or was like such
Speaker 3: a danger. I also I was Also it came with
Speaker 3: shame of like I fell for something, I got duped
Speaker 3: and I trusted that No, like other people, I now
Speaker 3: know this is not right, but at the time, I thought,
Speaker 3: no one else is getting duped like this, So I
Speaker 3: wasn't like worried that this was necessarily happening to other
Speaker 3: people to the same degree. And I did even then
Speaker 3: recognize as this perfect storm of we have this public
Speaker 3: right into us, and I was this person who would engage.
Speaker 3: And so, yeah, I never really caught I never really
Speaker 3: seriously contemplating contemplated pressing charges, especially when the detector was like,
Speaker 3: I'll just call him and scare the shit out of him,
Speaker 3: and that's what happened. So then I thought, I thought, oh,
Speaker 3: if it continues, then we'll have to get serious. But
Speaker 3: if it stops at least on the surface, I'm okay
Speaker 3: with that.
Speaker 1: There was a point as well when you realize that
Speaker 1: Beth did not dive from suicide and that you'd been
Speaker 1: kind of living with this. Was it anger that took
Speaker 1: over when you found out that you'd kind of been
Speaker 1: through this all through a you know, a different person
Speaker 1: than you thought, or was it was it relief? What
Speaker 1: do you remember kind of what you felt? And also
Speaker 1: I was like, when did you tell your partner that
Speaker 1: you'd been having this relationship over email with talking to someone?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think I think I told him either when
Speaker 3: I found out that she died or when we were
Speaker 3: looking at the IP addresses. I don't think he knew
Speaker 3: the extent of it. And honestly, I didn't really know
Speaker 3: the extent of it until doing this podcast and looking
Speaker 3: back and be like, oh my god, I was replying
Speaker 3: at like three am, you know, so intense. So I
Speaker 3: think I was relieved that no one died by suicide.
Speaker 3: I mean that was but I was pissed off that
Speaker 3: had my friend Tammy not like set my head straight,
Speaker 3: I would have gone on forever thinking like having this guilt.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I was. I was a lot of feelings,
Speaker 3: and then I was mostly just scared, and I felt
Speaker 3: so guilty, like having two little kids and feeling like
Speaker 3: I hadn't done right by them all the way, Like
Speaker 3: I felt really guilty.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, when I mean, this is a major spoiler.
Speaker 1: But you found out that the person who you thought
Speaker 1: it was, so you had this preconceived idea from the
Speaker 1: research you've done it IP addresses that it was this person,
Speaker 1: and you know, I could imagine myself in that situation
Speaker 1: going okay, I kind of put that to bed. I
Speaker 1: know who that person is.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't. I would be guns blazing, go straight in Georgia.
Speaker 1: Going knock on the door. Yeh. But but for you,
Speaker 1: when you realize that you know it is someone that
Speaker 1: you didn't think it was, it's a completely different person.
Speaker 1: There's a there's a phone call that happens, and you're
Speaker 1: not involved in the phone call at first, in the
Speaker 1: in the confrontation. How did you feel meeting the person
Speaker 1: who had kind of done all of this, the instigator
Speaker 1: of it. Did you were you kind of scared to
Speaker 1: get on that call to talk to them for the
Speaker 1: first time.
Speaker 3: It's interesting, I was so scared when we like initially
Speaker 3: reached out and I was like, are we really doing this?
Speaker 3: I was scared for them. At one point in time,
Speaker 3: Monica was going to go with someone else to confront them,
Speaker 3: and I was scared about that. I was like, oh
Speaker 3: that whenever that is, I'm not sleeping. I'm going to
Speaker 3: be just like a bundle of nerves. But the way
Speaker 3: this person responded and was willing to do it made
Speaker 3: me feel like, like, you know, we send an email
Speaker 3: and he wrote back, I'm not really keen to visit
Speaker 3: the darkest time of my life or something like that,
Speaker 3: which that I was like, Okay, he's not denying. I
Speaker 3: mean he he seemed like he was willing to have
Speaker 3: like a real conversation about it, which was shocking to
Speaker 3: me given my own parasocial relationship with him, because I
Speaker 3: had tracked him over the years, like I always kind
Speaker 3: of kept an eye on him and didn't like him,
Speaker 3: and like my ideas of who he was didn't totally
Speaker 3: match up with that. So I was like, Okay, that's interesting.
Speaker 3: And then you know, I don't know what you want
Speaker 3: to say or not say it, but that all made
Speaker 3: sense pretty quick, so I guess.
Speaker 2: A question I've got. I suppose we're talking about eight
Speaker 2: years of time of back and forth and lies and
Speaker 2: deception and confusion. Listening to that episode nine of the podcast,
Speaker 2: there is a lot of belief straight away.
Speaker 3: What we why?
Speaker 2: My entire question why.
Speaker 3: Is yeah, I know that and there I know there
Speaker 3: are great theories out there, and listen, they've been illuminating
Speaker 3: also because it's so funny, like we put this out.
Speaker 3: Never in a million did we think that there would
Speaker 3: be any like doubt about that, But that's been you know,
Speaker 3: I thought people would have other issues.
Speaker 2: Also, I think I want to say, so you don't
Speaker 2: think I'm not doubting, and I'm really interested as from
Speaker 2: probably and probably people who consume so much true crime
Speaker 2: of going people live people these So what was it
Speaker 2: that made you really wholeheartedly just believe straight away and
Speaker 2: not be cynical and burnt by what this person had
Speaker 2: done to you before?
Speaker 3: I think I think it was a couple of factors.
Speaker 3: One that he was willing to speak to us so openly.
Speaker 3: That was the other thing is we were kind of
Speaker 3: shocked that he was game, and we thought we'd have
Speaker 3: to like trick him into you know, speaking with us,
Speaker 3: and so we already had a sense of appreciation almost
Speaker 3: that he was willing to do this and wanted to
Speaker 3: be respectful. And because that's I mean, say what you
Speaker 3: will about anyone, that's very brave to do, I think,
Speaker 3: to be willing to own up to something and obviously
Speaker 3: a very uncomfortable conversation for all of us, but I
Speaker 3: think like for him especially, and then just the way
Speaker 3: he came across now he might have been manipulating us.
Speaker 3: I still am not like one hundred percent on a
Speaker 3: couple things. I'm a high percentage about most of it.
Speaker 3: But like I think if there was manipulation during that call,
Speaker 3: it just came from a place of embarrassment and shame.
Speaker 3: And all I wanted out of that was to not
Speaker 3: be scared of him anymore. Yeah, And like, no matter
Speaker 3: how you how the cookie crumbles, I'm not like if
Speaker 3: it's him, if it's whatever, if he was telling the
Speaker 3: full truth or half truth or none of it was true,
Speaker 3: I just don't find him a threat anymore. And so
Speaker 3: that was such a weightlifted. Yes, one hundred percent got closure,
Speaker 3: and he the other thing is he was I believe like, no,
Speaker 3: he didn't remember a lot of things, which, to be fair,
Speaker 3: I didn't either. Until we went through all of everything,
Speaker 3: it was like, oh right, we did a nude photoshooting
Speaker 3: stuff like that. I had completely forgotten. He So I
Speaker 3: don't know if that was true or not, but I
Speaker 3: could see it being true. I could see it not
Speaker 3: being true. But he was remorseful. He was not going,
Speaker 3: he was not there to defend himself. He and I
Speaker 3: think that also really moved all of us, Like, I
Speaker 3: think that so and you know, we talk about this.
Speaker 3: We had to change his voice and just seeing him
Speaker 3: and we were also I mean, I guess, can I
Speaker 3: do the big spoiler? I don't know. So it wasn't
Speaker 3: who we thought it was. It was his son, and
Speaker 3: he looks a lot like who we thought it was also,
Speaker 3: but the younger version there there was like a long
Speaker 3: silence that we edited out because it was too long
Speaker 3: and confusing, but where we were all just like, I mean,
Speaker 3: Andy and Monica who were on with him, were just
Speaker 3: like it was so such a mind fuck, yes, like
Speaker 3: and then finding our footing, you know, they had to
Speaker 3: find their footing and asking him questions, but it was
Speaker 3: like really jarring, really really jarring. So I think that
Speaker 3: was another reason that we were just kind of like
Speaker 3: I think about it, where we're like, no, we're sorry.
Speaker 2: That was great, and that was such a good insight
Speaker 2: and into human character of going. You know, I joke
Speaker 2: before I'd be going in guns blazing like I would,
Speaker 2: and then you're confronted with something like this, and I
Speaker 2: think it's a really good lesson in not doing that
Speaker 2: and taking the time to stop, step back and think.
Speaker 2: And again, you know, people listening to this will be
Speaker 2: listening because it's a true crime cop podcast and or
Speaker 2: that they've seen the episode name of this one and
Speaker 2: want to hear from you. But we do talk a lot.
Speaker 2: The reason we talk about the crimes is because we
Speaker 2: know they've happened. They've got some kind of resolution in
Speaker 2: most points, so we can go in, go this fucking
Speaker 2: guy and how gross and now we know they were lying.
Speaker 2: But this is really the opposite of that. It's feeling
Speaker 2: like there is a crime that has happened, could have happened,
Speaker 2: may happen. We're not sure if it's a time or not.
Speaker 2: So you're going to go in from that kind of
Speaker 2: investigative level, but not treating it as a crime. And
Speaker 2: I think maybe that's been a good lesson for I
Speaker 2: was gonna say, Samy's looking at me, going no, g
Speaker 2: listen for you. I'm just an angry person.
Speaker 1: But I you know, I did a comedy show this year,
Speaker 1: Elizabeth about you know, just complicated people, you know, and
Speaker 1: and the thing that I talk about a lot is
Speaker 1: because it's about addicts, and I talk about, you know,
Speaker 1: my relationship with addicts over the years, and that hurt people,
Speaker 1: hurt people, you know, and and there's.
Speaker 2: Not funny, but there's what a great bit.
Speaker 1: But there's there's a lot of gray area in everything.
Speaker 1: Not everything black and white, there's a lot of gray.
Speaker 1: And I think what was really interesting is that you
Speaker 1: can you can't get all the answers all the time,
Speaker 1: and that for me, like Gee was saying, that can
Speaker 1: be really frustrating because you're kind of going, but what
Speaker 1: do you mean? You don't remember because it was so
Speaker 1: peopotol to you. I've had friends of mine say I
Speaker 1: remember when you said this years ago, and it really
Speaker 1: stuck with me and I'm like, I don't remember the
Speaker 1: segment at all. But for you to to actually do
Speaker 1: this and go, oh wow, like this is everything, This
Speaker 1: is kind of a closed chapter for me? Really, did
Speaker 1: you know, has there been a point where you've been
Speaker 1: like and another thing like I wish exception, Yeah, have
Speaker 1: you wanted to kind of reach back out and have
Speaker 1: there been moments when you've been like, not reach back
Speaker 1: out and be but friends? But you know, have there
Speaker 1: been a moment when you've been like, oh, but what
Speaker 1: about that? What about this? What about that time?
Speaker 2: Especially because of the shock during that initial call, were
Speaker 2: there things you thought, Oh, we didn't ask and that
Speaker 2: now that's settled down a bit, I wish we.
Speaker 3: Had maybe, but no. It's so funny because I think
Speaker 3: everyone kind of operates differently, just how you're saying, like,
Speaker 3: you know, you want to go in guns blazing, and
Speaker 3: Sam has a different you know, he does a comedy
Speaker 3: show about it. I feel like all I wanted out
Speaker 3: of it was to not feel scared anymore, and I
Speaker 3: got it, and I kind of it. Kind of what
Speaker 3: I realized was like all of those details didn't super
Speaker 3: matter anyway. It was really interesting to us, and it
Speaker 3: would have been interesting to get like his take or
Speaker 3: perspective on certain things. Now there are some things that
Speaker 3: he his response to some things that I'm like I
Speaker 3: don't know if that's right or if that comes from
Speaker 3: covering because you're embarrassed or what so like, there are
Speaker 3: still question marks, of course, but I think that is
Speaker 3: the thing. You're not going to have all the answers,
Speaker 3: and a lot of people don't have answers to things
Speaker 3: way more intense than this, and you know, you still
Speaker 3: have to live your life. And so my hope is
Speaker 3: the takeaway is kind of this, like you don't know everything,
Speaker 3: and you're maybe not going to know everything, but all
Speaker 3: you can do is like find your own peace in
Speaker 3: the way that you need to. And I feel like
Speaker 3: this doing this podcast gave me that where I hadn't
Speaker 3: even though it had ended almost a decade earlier, I
Speaker 3: hadn't been able to like feel peace at peace with it.
Speaker 3: So and for that, I'm so grateful to him. We
Speaker 3: reached back out one more time, just thanking him, and
Speaker 3: the vibe was definitely like like we're never talking again,
Speaker 3: you know. It was definitely like a goodbye and be
Speaker 3: well or wish you well type thing and not I
Speaker 3: mean maybe we were a little bit too like thank
Speaker 3: you so much. I don't know, because it is funny
Speaker 3: we did that and I felt a certain way about it,
Speaker 3: and then we spent months editing this and like compiling
Speaker 3: and you know, even though it sounds very not edited,
Speaker 3: which it's not in many ways, but just like you know,
Speaker 3: you know, it's like putting a podcast out there. There's
Speaker 3: lots of stuff to be done, and listening back through
Speaker 3: all of it so many times I kind of like
Speaker 3: started to feel like that was really bad, that was
Speaker 3: really messed up what happened. So, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think that the complication of humanity is just like
Speaker 3: on display in this and my hope. Everyone's had really
Speaker 3: different reactions and some people are like, there's no justice,
Speaker 3: and you know there it's like all across and some
Speaker 3: people are like it's so cruel that you guys are
Speaker 3: laughing earlier when you know what the ending is. You know,
Speaker 3: there's like it's all across the board. And at the
Speaker 3: end of the day, I'm just like, it's making people
Speaker 3: think and feel and that's the best. That's the best thing,
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 1: So I didn't kind of have one more question really
Speaker 1: about you know, you said that you said kind of
Speaker 1: a fine good bye, So you have no idea if
Speaker 1: he's listened to the or if one of the aliases have.
Speaker 3: Yeah, anders is on aug Yeah he I I feel
Speaker 3: like he probably has. I don't know, and I think
Speaker 3: that that would probably be hard for someone and also
Speaker 3: to not be able to like speak to it or
Speaker 3: you know, my if things is always to like yes,
Speaker 3: even even even I mean, it's like I haven't learned
Speaker 3: my lesson even like the responses, I want to kind
Speaker 3: of jump and be like, oh, actually you know, and
Speaker 3: he's like you can't. I also want to say that
Speaker 3: the response has been overwhelmingly so positive and supportive, and
Speaker 3: we've heard from people who were like I was weeping
Speaker 3: at the end and like, you know. So I don't
Speaker 3: mean to just point out the kind of extreme responses,
Speaker 3: but I would guess he has listened. Although I mean
Speaker 3: this comes with like, what did I really believe? I
Speaker 3: think before it was out, I would have guessed he hadn't,
Speaker 3: And now that it's out and we've heard like from
Speaker 3: people's different perspectives, I think he probably has. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That reminds me A really big bit for me, and
Speaker 2: listening to your podcast is when the three of you
Speaker 2: were discussing whether he when you emailed him, whether he'd
Speaker 2: email back or not, and you and Monica were really
Speaker 2: adamant that he wouldn't, and Andy straight up said he
Speaker 2: absolutely will, absolutely will. This is everything we know about
Speaker 2: him is that he wants his contact, and that's kind
Speaker 2: of what you're saying now. On the other side as well,
Speaker 2: I think I believe what Andy said in that about
Speaker 2: listening back to this podcast. Now he's he's that kind
Speaker 2: of or at least at some point in his life,
Speaker 2: has been that kind of person where he's wanted to interact,
Speaker 2: He's wanted to hear his words through Anders or Frank
Speaker 2: or Beth or whoever it were. I personally think he
Speaker 2: would have listened also, maybe maybe in a form of
Speaker 2: kind of preparing for some kind of self defense if
Speaker 2: someone works out it was him and he wants to
Speaker 2: know what's being said.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I yes, I agree. Andy is so
Speaker 3: annoying that like he he always like he gets it
Speaker 3: right a frustrating amount of times where I'm like there's
Speaker 3: no way, and he's like it is and he just
Speaker 3: has this knowing and then of course he's fucking right.
Speaker 3: But this was a good example of, like, I think
Speaker 3: everything you said is right. He now the person we
Speaker 3: spoke with mentioned a huge part of this was addiction
Speaker 3: and that that's no longer a part of their life.
Speaker 3: So that's the only thing that I'm like, if it's
Speaker 3: so compartmentalized, maybe maybe, but you know, he might be
Speaker 3: listening to that. You guys might have a new fan.
Speaker 2: Please do leave a five star writing five star review,
Speaker 2: and if you're listening, Oh.
Speaker 1: Litzibeth, thank you so much for taking the time to
Speaker 1: talk to us where we just loved listening to the
Speaker 1: podcast and thinking about it really made me think about it.
Speaker 2: We've had so many discussions, the two of us sitting
Speaker 2: down just chatting about it ourselves. So I know that
Speaker 2: everyone who's listened has been doing this and this is
Speaker 2: why we wanted to chat to you, just to have
Speaker 2: another excuse to have a conversation about it. It was fantastic,
Speaker 2: So congratulations on that, and thank you for sharing. Thank
Speaker 2: you with us us being the world of podcast listeners,
Speaker 2: but us being two of us as well and our listeners.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. This was a
Speaker 3: delight and yeah, I really appreciate this and this was
Speaker 3: such a positive. I'm glad I was on my first
Speaker 3: true crime podcast as not a purp. Yeah, you know, but.
Speaker 2: If or when the time comes, we'd love to interview
Speaker 2: you again.
Speaker 1: Whatever crime you can. Thank you. And where do people
Speaker 1: find you? Elizabeth as well? And you know, obviously Beth's dead,
Speaker 1: they can search on all the apps. But but yeah,
Speaker 1: where do people find you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm Elizabeth Lame on Instagram as la I am
Speaker 3: Georgia your love.
Speaker 2: Yes, yep, not made up.
Speaker 3: So we have. So my last name is the loved
Speaker 3: one in French actually, so we have.
Speaker 2: And my best friend's name is Elizabeth. So there we go.
Speaker 3: Oh no, oh no, I look at us.
Speaker 2: We're making a parasocial relationship. No back off.
Speaker 3: But oh and then also Andrew's in My podcast is
Speaker 3: called Nobody's Listening, right, and it's once a week. He
Speaker 3: and I talk as a married couple. I mean not
Speaker 3: about marriage really, but it's us talking like no one's listening,
Speaker 3: and we do really keep it pretty true to that.
Speaker 3: So tune in there and that's it.
Speaker 1: You're amazing. Thank you so much for joining us and
Speaker 1: being the first crime podcast that you've been on as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm overjoyed with.
Speaker 1: That authentic Yeah really hit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you