1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Well, as you've heard on the show, Territorians are being 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: invited to have their say on how saltwater crocodiles are 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: managed over the next ten years, with a draft management 4 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: program now open for consultation. That plan aims to strike 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: a balance between public safety and the sustainable use of 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: the reptiles, with the industry worth around twenty five million 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: dollars to the Northern Territory's economy. Now joining us on 8 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: the line to tell us more about this it is 9 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: the Director of Flora and Fauna with the NT Department 10 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: of Environment, Tim Clancy. Good morning to you. 11 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 2: Tim, mining Catie. 12 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: Tim tell us more about the program and you know 13 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: what the changes I suppose recommend. 14 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 2: Well, as you're aware, it's a long standing program which 15 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 2: is I think demonstrated the ability to not only recover 16 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 2: a species from very low levels to back to where 17 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 2: it's now very abundant, also develop industries around the use 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: of a species, especially one of the benefit landholders and 19 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: aboriginal stakeholders and it's complexes. Has also got this major 20 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: issue of human safety. It's got to be a component 21 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 2: of it. So it's been running in various forms since 22 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 2: the seventies when people realize populations in trouble, and that 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: went through a phase of recovery, even the sustainable use phase, 24 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 2: and we're now sort of at the stage where the 25 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 2: population it's all intensive purposes and probably back to what 26 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: it was prior to the exploitation in the post war period. 27 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 1: Well, and those numbers do seem to be very high. 28 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: I mean, how many crocodiles have we got here in 29 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: the Northern territory. 30 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: Well, they not counting the hatchling any year is that 31 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: there's new crops come on board. But the sort of 32 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 2: a the small to the largest is probably about one 33 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: hundred thousands the best estimate currently. That's a number the 34 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: sort of sort of most comfortable with it. There's a 35 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: bit of uncertainty around that, but yeah, it's certainly a 36 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 2: lot higher than the estimated probably as lowest five thousand 37 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 2: back in the early seventies. Wow, but yeah, that's not 38 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: they're not all big crops obviously, there's a lot of 39 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: little ones. And each year it'll get recruitment going on 40 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 2: and you'll get you they're very prolific breeders that you know, 41 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 2: they can have fifty young come out of the nest 42 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: sort of thing, and you know, they sort of add 43 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: to the numbers every year. 44 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, now, how look what are some of the 45 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: challenges then in terms of managing that population, because I 46 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: guess it's a it's a fine line between those numbers 47 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: absolutely blowing out. But then that safety aspect of it, 48 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: like it'll be quite a difficult juggle. 49 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's and it's Yeah. The con sort of 50 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: this context of having multiple objectives make it even very 51 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: difficult to sort of get a single sort of approach 52 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: it or work whatever. That means You've got to do 53 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 2: different things in different parts of the territory to ensure 54 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 2: you you can sort of get the optimized result across 55 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: all the different objectives we're trying to meet. Clearly, I 56 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: think one thing I'm seeing in recent times is that, 57 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 2: you know, the public sapen stuff has to be at 58 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: the center of the whole discussions. We sort of propose 59 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: in this thing as sort of a sort of with 60 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 2: a ramping up of the sort of zoned approach. So 61 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: you've got areas where crocodiles just aren't tolerated. So these 62 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: are sort of more points, all sort of things so 63 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: people can go and and use sort of some more 64 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 2: in points that are defendables, there's no crops there. We've 65 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: got the sort of strategic sort of curl zone where 66 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: you're reducing populations to trace levels. That's sort of your 67 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: day on half the type situation. And then we've got 68 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: the broader landscape where we know the carnane is to 69 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 2: maintain crocodiles as sort of their natural densities and only 70 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 2: sort of remove individual animals it are causing problems. So 71 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: you can still have sort of risk approaching each of 72 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 2: those owns, but they are obviously quite different. And the 73 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 2: other thing we want to make sure is that when 74 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: when we're dealing with the risk, it's not a it's 75 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 2: a two way sort of thing. It's it's crocodile numbers 76 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: are aspect. The other is human behavior and you know, 77 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: the actual the biggest risk is someone being in the 78 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: in the habitat where there is a large croc there. 79 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the ramifications can be can be fatal and 80 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: absolutely tragic. You know. So how many crocs have been 81 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,799 Speaker 1: removed from the wild in recent times? Is it something 82 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: that we're doing a lot of at the moment. 83 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 2: Well, the crop team it's just excellent aid. They take 84 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 2: three hundred odd that's up and down depending on wet 85 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: and dry years, but it's taken I think about three 86 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 2: three thousand over last twelve years or so, and they 87 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: basically catching everything actually in the in the proximity of 88 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: Darwin and Catherine management zones. And also we're all we 89 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: also have the sort of industry, so individual croc harvesters 90 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: who can go and get a permit to take cobb 91 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: and crocks and say property owners and they ranger group 92 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 2: things like that to manage crops on their sort of 93 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: land as well. So it's the total numbers are they're 94 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: mainly the big crocs and they're usually you know, sort 95 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 2: of four or five hundred years thing. And the sustainable 96 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: what we know from our modeling is that you know, 97 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: we could be taking up to twelve hundred and not 98 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: impact on the population in industry. 99 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: So, Tim, is there much support for culling? You know, 100 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: I know that it gets discussed from time to time, 101 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: but from your perspective, is there much support for it? 102 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: It's one of those very polarizing issues and it depends 103 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 2: on what how you actually frame a question in a way. 104 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: So if we said, you know, do we want all 105 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: crocodiles in our strategic color zones removed to Darwin and 106 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 2: the Captain. I think everyone agreed about that's not a problem. 107 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: If you're talking about a total reduction of a whole 108 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: into crocodile population, which would trigger a whole lot of 109 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: other issues, applications for industry and may not be able 110 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: to have international markets things like that, then you've got 111 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 2: a whole different in set of stakeholders and different views 112 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: a new level too. 113 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: So what are you hoping comes from this community feedback 114 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: that you know that we are asking for at the moment, I. 115 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: Think anything that sort of gets people engage and think 116 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: about this this But it is a complex issue. It's 117 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: not a matter of one of these things where you 118 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: just there's a magic answer. You know that the science 119 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: can say, oh you do you know, we'll go and 120 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: reduce a population martuge, you've seen it, or we'll leave 121 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: it all alone. We do need the people can engage. 122 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: I think one really positive in the territory context is 123 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: they don't automatically default of the every croc is sacred 124 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 2: versus every crop should be killed type dichotomy. And if 125 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: people do realize it is a nuanced question and they've 126 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 2: got they're sort of what, you know, people out using 127 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: these recreating crock habitats and that not there's sort of 128 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: things they've got to do to minimize the risk. But 129 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 2: you know, I also like saying, you know, it's quite 130 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 2: a feature of a territory game. You can actually quite 131 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: easily go and find it. 132 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's the thing, isn't it. I guess we 133 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: all sort of understand that it is. You know, there's 134 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: such an icon of the Northern territory and they are 135 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: a real tourism draw card as well. You know, when 136 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: you go out to the jumping crop tours and things 137 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: like that, people want to actually get to see a 138 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: crocodile when they go out there. So it is I 139 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: guess it's going to be a balance no matter what. 140 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 2: And I think that's the key to that is actually 141 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 2: spatial variation, so you're not trying to do everything in 142 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 2: the same the same thing in every point in the landscape. 143 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 2: You've got very different managements can occur in the proximity 144 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 2: to the major population centers versus your adulated river situation 145 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: where you've got high tourism, versus your Cakkadu where you've 146 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 2: got the sort of the conservation and global side of 147 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: conservation significant. So yeah, so it's got to balance and 148 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 2: it's got to fit within a very complex legal framework 149 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: of international laws arounxiety. It's a common Wealth environment leaders 150 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: and the territory zoning laws, which is what we were 151 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: sort of most tagging is towards. But yeah, it's a 152 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: complex question. 153 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Tim Clancy, the NT Environment Department, Director of 154 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: Flora and Fauna. I really appreciate your time this morning. 155 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having a chat with us. 156 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: Now I am going to encourage people to go to 157 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: the website and have their say. 158 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, and you can do that by heading to 159 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: have your say dot NT, dot gov, dot AU and 160 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: you'll be able to jump on there. But there is 161 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: that management program for saltwater crocodiles in the NT. Tim, 162 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: thanks so much for having a chat this morning. 163 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 2: Thanks you, thank you, Thanks so much.