WEBVTT - 17: Body of Evidence 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:06.360 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:11.760 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:18.960 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:29.319 lifeline dot org dot AU. A twenty four year old 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:38.839 devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationships am bags 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:45.200 packed car, running, her daughters strapped into the backseat. 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:49.040 Mom told me that she needed to go back inside 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:49.839 to grab something. 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.360 Panic. Amy is dead, Sir Amys dead. 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:54.560 Eight Confusion World. 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:56.920 About five minutes they said, NA, it's a suicide. One 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:57.840 hundred percent. 0:00:58.160 --> 0:00:59.240 This is emmersing. 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:05.319 What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy? 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.760 The Truth about Amy? 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:17.120 Episode seventeen. 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.480 Well, welcome back. I'm Liam Bartlay. 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:31.520 And I'm Alison Sandy. This week we returned to the 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:37.360 Wild West. Well, Liam, I know you're still there, but 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:43.040 I'm referring to our most recent shoot. So we've touched 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:47.040 on the places we've gone to before, like Perth and Serpentine. 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:49.240 But I realize a lot of our listeners may not 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:53.000 know a terrible lot about Australia's largest at least in 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.360 area state, and I think it's important due to the 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.920 level of detail we're going into for this investigation, particular 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.920 in relation to the police and political culture. So what 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:06.440 do you say, Liam, do you want to give them 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:09.200 a bit of background about living in WA and the 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:09.959 climate here? 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.200 Yeah? Okay, well where do I start? Now? Wild West 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:18.120 owl I'll take that as a compliment on behalf of 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:20.519 all the other West Australians. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.680 Let's let's begin with that. But let's just do a 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:26.160 broad brush. Okay, start with the geography. As you mentioned, 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:30.160 Way's Australia's largest state, and we've got something like two 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:34.120 point six million square kilometers a little under one hundred 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:36.959 thousand square miles in the old language. So that's about 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.720 a third of the entire nation of Australia, Larger than 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:43.920 any state in the United States, larger than Texas, can 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.680 you believe that? Bigger in Texas, but a little bit 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:51.480 smaller than Argentina or a little Trivia or Factotum. We 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:54.880 only have a population though, of around about three million, 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.040 give or take a couple of dogs. So to give 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:02.000 you some context, Australia's most populous state, New South Wales, 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:07.040 is almost three times that, followed by Victoria that comes 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:11.040 in at about seven million and Queensland, you're joint ol 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:15.680 five million, five million compared to our three million. Well 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:17.520 we're a little bit over three now, I think. 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:19.359 But you know, which just. 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:23.000 Goes to prove you know, quality is not always on 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:25.720 the Gold Coast, you know what I'm saying, just for 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:29.679 ever of Australian for ACUSM. But despite this, WA is 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.200 the richest state in Australia because we produce almost half 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:36.840 of Australia's goods in exports and obviously through the resource sector, 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:38.040 we generate billions of dollars. 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:39.640 Now, last year our GDP. 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.960 Per capita per capita was one hundred and fifty five 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:44.880 six hundred and forty four dollars. 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:45.880 It's just to give you. 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:50.920 Some context, Australia's GDP per capita is sixty eight thousand dollars, 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:54.080 so well and truly yeah, well and truly twice that. 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.160 Now, now that's still relatively good. 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.920 I mean Australia is ranked thirteenth in the world, thirteenth 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:04.680 in the world for GDP per capita, so you know, 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:05.520 pretty good, yong. 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.800 But I guess what it all boils down to is 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:13.080 the nation's good standing is largely attributable to Western Australia 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.920 because of its mining industry, specifically minerals and petroleum. So 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.360 it's not surprising, then, Liam, that there's been a few 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:24.679 moves made for Western Australia to become its own country Australia. 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:25.960 Is that? 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:27.960 Have you heard of this term? Of course you have. 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.440 Wasn't there a referendum in nineteen thirty three where a 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.839 third of the population voted in favor of this happening? 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.039 Do you reckon that would still happen now? You reckon 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:39.000 a third of the population wants Westralia. 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.760 No, No, I don't. I don't. 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:44.960 I think after we put the fluoride in the water, 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:46.360 I think a lot of us got a little a 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.480 lot smarter. No, because it's a very different It's a 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:51.839 very different makeup now, isn't it. And that was not 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:56.720 long after federation. Really in historical context, you know, I think, look, 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:02.000 you know what it's like with remote places, right, Perth's 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.839 the most remote capital city in the world, So it's 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.919 sort of that isolation context, the distance to the east coast. 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:13.440 It does give people a different sort of mental you know, 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:17.800 a mental state, if I can put it that way 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:21.039 in a nice way, in a nice way. So become territorial, 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:22.080 is what I'm trying to say. 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:23.120 And that's good. 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.080 You know, West Australians are very proud and very you 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:30.400 know very you say, people can get house proud, you 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:32.320 know what I mean. That's a good way of putting it, 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.560 I think for most West Australians. But I think the 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:36.599 idea of secession, you know, when people point out you 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:38.680 have to have your own armed forces and you have 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:40.040 to pay for this and that and the other thing, 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:41.440 and I think that starts to. 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.480 Become it's too hard basket. But it's not. 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.080 And especially in sport, in sporting contests, you know, it's 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:49.720 nice to say, oh we beat the Vicks, so we've 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:51.400 beat New South Wales or whatever. 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:53.840 You know, so that's all good, that's all good. But 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:58.520 apart from that, we're you know, we're all one. We 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:00.839 are one and three. 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:01.400 It is. 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:03.479 It is different, though, I mean, I don't know. It 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.960 seems like because of the large land mass and the 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:11.240 smaller population that there is, it's a bit tighter, like 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:14.960 people know people more and there seems to be. 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:18.000 True. It can be very clique. 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.200 You're right, you're right, but that also comes I think 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:25.240 from being isolated more, you know, people feel as they 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.520 have to protect their patch and it becomes a smaller 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:28.440 it's a smaller pool. 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:30.840 Yeah, Queensland is a little bit like that. 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.880 It is. But I don't think I would know as 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:37.320 many people in Brisbane, like you know of you know 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.000 what I mean. Like, I don't think it's I think 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:45.160 it's the population is big enough just in Brisbane that 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:47.839 you're not you know, it's not a case of everyone 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:49.080 knows each other's business. 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:51.880 No, true, you used to be. But I agree with you. 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:53.799 It's that critical mass in the last sort of twenty 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.000 twenty five years you start to get over that. 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:57.080 Yeah. 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.560 Also, though, doesn't it have a big English and South 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.120 African migrant base expat population? 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:06.480 Yeah, it does, it does. Yeah, a lot of a 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:10.560 lot of English people early on, sort of more in 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:14.240 the southern suburbs, southern coastal suburbs, now a little bit 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:17.320 sort of some of the northern coastal suburbs. But a 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.800 lot of a lot of Poms, as we say, quite 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.320 a few South Africans. Yeah, a large, a large South 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:25.520 African expat population. 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:26.080 I know. 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.920 We had to get a South African voice actor over 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:34.160 here to voice the lawyer in the inquest representing Amy's 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:41.559 family Rain Waite, So yeah we did. But yes, also 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:45.160 fun fact, it's quicker to fly from Perth to Bali 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.320 than Sydney or Melbourne. So many people do, don't. 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:49.440 They Well, yeah, because it's cheap. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.520 But you know, I don't know whether i'd invoke Bali 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.200 as being a great thing for Western Australia. I mean, 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:59.840 you've got Fiji over there, that's that's the East Coast barley. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.200 Yeah, yeah, but I don't think as many of us 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:06.920 go to Fiji as per people or Western Australians necessarily 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:07.360 got a balley. 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:08.440 I don't know, No, that's true. 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:11.360 Although I did hear an interesting thing yesterday that the 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:13.840 incidents of Bali belly was up seventy nine percent year 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.840 on year. So yeah, I'd be going somewhere else. 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.200 But anyway, so you're not one of those people. 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:22.080 I digress. 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.560 No, Also, I had and again tell me if this 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:27.720 has any truth in it, but one top businessman from 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:31.160 here told me recently how success here can really be 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:36.120 about not upsetting Perth's power brokers, this tight knit as 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.240 you talked about this click and you know, I know 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.959 the police have probably seen as an arm of that. 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:46.079 I mean as they are in many capital cities, obviously 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:50.920 the media and the mining industry. So anyway, I guess 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.040 the only reason I say that is because it makes 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:57.040 it much more impressive, given how careful people are not 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.200 too upset other people, because of the repercussions that we 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.000 have so many people speaking out on Amy's case. 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:04.920 I think that's right. I think that's right. 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.040 And also can I just add though, that there has 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.200 been that thing in Perth in the past, especially back 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.040 in the alum Bond days especially you know you have 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:16.599 because you had a very tight click between businessmen, developers 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.360 and government and people in the mining industry obviously played 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:23.560 a big part of that. But I think that's largely 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:26.880 that's that's very different these days, very different. But I 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.600 think the legal community, not just in Perth, Australia wide 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.760 every capital city. I think that it's a very tight club. 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:39.000 And I think that's combined with the connections with police 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.199 and prosecutors, and I think I think that makes a 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.880 big difference. Yes I do, Yes, I do. And the 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.160 legal grape vine is so much smaller in Perth, which 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:52.640 I think makes a big difference. So that traditional, if 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:54.880 I can put it this way, boys club, but I 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:56.600 don't mean that in a gender way, because I think 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.880 there's plenty of women involved these days in those top 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:03.440 echelons of the legal circle. But I think that very 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:05.640 much exists, and I think they a lot of them 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:07.480 protect each other. When I say protect each other, a 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.160 lot of them just won't speak out because they don't 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:10.880 want to get involved, because they don't want to be 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:14.480 seen to be critical of their fellow legal brethren, even 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.000 though they might be on the other side of the bench, 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:17.920 if you know what I mean. And I think that 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:20.320 that very much happens in Perth. It happens in Sydney 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:21.960 and Melbourne as well, but you notice it more in Perth. 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:24.959 And it comes back to what you're talking about. I 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:27.960 think sort of that sort of power base. And I 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:29.640 think that's why it's so impressive that a lot of 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.959 people have been prepared on a legal footing, or people 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.640 who continue to deal with people high up in the 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:39.880 legal circles, have been prepared to speak out on behalf 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:41.880 of Amy Wensley. I think that's been terrific. 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.720 Yeah, it really is. And I think what we're finding 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:49.559 in this season lamb Is and later in this episode 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.360 is the fact that those people who are in the 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:57.480 know involved, credible people with good reputations may be not 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.400 necessarily a member of the cool club. There is always 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.440 a bit of a cool club in every city, but 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.120 they're willing to keep going at it because they believe 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:11.640 in it too, And I think that's been really heartening. 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:13.800 Absolutely. Yeah, No, I couldn't agree more. 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.040 Also, though I have worked in Adelaide, I don't have 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:18.640 this issue so much in Brison, but there's probably a 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.480 bit of it. But where if you you know, particularly 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.960 if you're in the part of the local news cycle, right, 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.920 you can get punished for suing a story like this, right, Yeah, 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:33.560 And I think it's worth telling or letting our listeners 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.800 know that we're both national reporters, and I think that 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.920 gives us a little bit of protection. 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.920 Yeah, I absolutely get where you're coming from. I mean, 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:46.800 it is a lot easier for us because we can 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.240 move on to other stories at the end of the day. 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.400 We don't have to be dependent upon any you know, 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:57.480 one particular area to feed us information or to release 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.720 information to us. And that's right, all of the circle 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:05.040 is Adelaide's a good example. Then the harder it is 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.320 for those reporters to push back and do their job properly, 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:11.520 because remember, cases like Amy's are a great example of this. 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:17.040 The truism is you're not in journalism to make friends. 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.840 And if you are a journalist who wants to make friends, 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:26.400 find something else to do. It's not your job. It's 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.400 not your job. You're there to find the truth and 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.199 you're there to disseminate as much of that truth as 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:38.160 you possibly can to your listeners, readers, viewers, whatever that is. 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.960 So in that context, yeah, I take your point, you know, 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:47.320 because we do a national role call, if I can 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.160 put it that way, you know, because we don't have 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.240 to go back to the same old pot on the 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:52.640 same old stove, do we. 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.360 So it makes it, it makes it a little bit easier. 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.720 Well, I'm just glad that I don't have to ring 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.079 Waypole every day asking what happened last night, you know. 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:05.960 Or following up on and they're probably glad you don't rememberies. 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:11.559 Don't do it up to the presses anyway. So let's 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.160 discuss it again. The reason we've once again assembled in. 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.520 Perth apart from it being a great city. 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:22.400 Oh absolutely, and obviously Amy's death being at Serpentine near Perth. 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.280 But now Obviously it's a lot of work involved with 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:25.960 these trips. 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.600 Yeah, a lot of planning, isn't there with trips like this, 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:33.200 and logistics trying to get people to not only talk 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.400 but be in the right place at the right time, 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.120 and as you say, our both of us to be 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.760 here and then organize other people to support us. 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:46.240 Yes, including the brilliant producer Dwayne Heavily. So it was 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.320 great to have him along because obviously he's been with 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.280 us on a few projects. Now were you more so 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.080 than me? But I love having Dwayne along, So that's 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:55.480 been good. 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.480 Yeah, Dwayne does some great work with Spotlight and as 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.600 well as the engagement of an experience camera operator of course, 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.320 which makes a big difference, but that can vary depending 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.040 on who's available and again the logistics of it. This 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:11.199 time it was one of WA's best wellow called Simon Heidzik. 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:14.760 Simon was fantastic, absolutely, and of course the talent the 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.880 actual reason for us coming here, whose insight is integral 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:26.480 to helping us realize the truth about amy. So those 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.000 of you who've traveled from the East Coast, no, going 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.080 to Perth is treated like an international flight. It takes 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:36.800 almost six hours. These flights are almost always full, mostly 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:40.120 of FIFO workers. That's fly in, fly out, which isn't 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:44.240 surprising giving the mining industry employs hundreds of thousands of people. 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.600 And I don't mind telling you, Liam, I'm always pretty 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.520 disgruntled if I get stuck in a middle seat for 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:51.360 six hours. 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:55.400 I do take care, may have moved and could form out. 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.920 But this time, this time I was by the window 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.440 over the wing and it was a smooth landing and 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:02.320 the peanuts. 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.840 Were all right, yeah, well look and you're laying it 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:08.520 on there. I mean, it can be less than that 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:10.480 if there's depending on where you're coming from, of course, 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.280 but it's a tough one. From Brisbane, I must have 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.000 known it is a tough one. It's a long way. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.040 It's a long way, but ol, you did make it. 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.880 And I'm really excited about this and letting our listeners 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.400 hear some of these people. The first person we caught 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:28.200 up with is somebody whose appearance I think was well overdue. 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.080 Well we've certainly heard a lot from him, but yes, 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:33.920 this is the first time was spoken with him directly. 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:36.360 But he was worth the weight lamb. 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.640 Yeah, absolutely, And just by way of background, Professor Tim 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.480 Ackland did his PhD at the University of Western Australia 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:47.000 back in the nineteen eighties as a tutor working his 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.840 way up to professor. Now his career spanned something like 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.040 forty five years and at the time he was recruited 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:58.200 to assist with Amy's case. This is important he was 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:02.840 being called upon regularly by WA police and other authorities 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:07.720 to provide expert advice in the area of biomechanics. So 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:12.120 I began the interview by asking Tim more about that. 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:16.840 Can you outline the extent and the depth of your 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:23.600 experience in sharing forensic cases details with authorities around Australia. 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.280 Give us an idea of what you've been associated with. 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.800 Yes. So, in addition to my work as a teacher 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.720 and a researcher at University of Western Australia, I also 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:38.440 undertake consulting work. Most of it's in the sphere of 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:42.720 people being injured at work and applying the biomechanics knowledge 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:46.240 that I have to those situations. But on occasions I've 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:50.680 been asked to undertake consultancies for the police and coroners 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.960 in various jurisdictions around Australia in order to try to 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.640 work out or try to give some indication as to 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.920 whether the scenario that they have seen or come across 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:04.719 could have been caused in one way or another. 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:09.120 So mostly workplace insurance claims, Yes, that's right, working out 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:10.680 who's in the right and who's in the wrong. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.879 Yes, And could a person have injured themselves in the 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:16.920 manner that they've said and ended up with the injuries 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:18.520 that they've eventually got. 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:20.600 But when it comes to the difference between that and 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:25.240 cold cases, especially involving homicides around Australia, it must be 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:26.000 pretty confronting. 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:30.119 It is confronting. I won't deny that. But my background 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:35.680 in anatomy and applied anatomy has dealing with deceased persons 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:40.240 has helped me to work through that evidence, that visual 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:44.480 evidence in particular, and remain scientific as much as I can. 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.280 How many cases do you think you've looked at criminally 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:48.959 professor criminal cases? 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:52.160 Probably about fifteen to twenty criminal cases. 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.720 So you've had a fair breadth of experience in terms 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.600 of knowledge and information shared. Yes, And who approached you 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.359 initial to look at Amy Wensley's case. 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:06.919 So I was initially approached by some officers from the 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:11.040 homicide squad. They asked me some questions and showed me 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.159 some photographs and said could I make a determination? And 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.480 I said no, with that information alone, I couldn't do. 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:18.200 So. 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:20.600 Then a little bit of time went by, and then 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.399 I got a call from the State Coroner's office and 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.320 asked if I would be happy to look at some 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.800 of the evidence that they have available and to give 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:33.360 my preliminary views. They were particularly interested to know if 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:37.199 I could give a determination from my perspective on the 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.520 basis of that information alone. 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:43.560 So what was the essential brief? What were they asking 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:45.520 you to try to ascertain? 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.600 They asked me if I could make a determination of 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:52.440 whether Amy had committed suicide in the manner in which 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.359 the detectives who were on the scene had suggested, or 0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:00.000 whether this was indeed some other form of homicide. 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.159 So your advice was going direct to the coroner. 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.000 At that point. Yes. At the same time, they asked 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:11.040 if I would interrogate the various witness statements, the information 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:14.920 from forensic scientists, and to see if there were any 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:19.040 inconsistencies in that information, which I was able to write 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:23.679 a report in twenty eighteen, I believe, and sent that 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:25.040 report to the state coroner. 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.120 So just to be clear, you were looking at the 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:31.919 biomechanics of this in Amy's case, yes, whether or not 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:38.160 she could have potentially shot herself if someone else had 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.160 done it, et cetera, et cetera. But also surrounding that 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:47.120 crime scene photographs witness statements as rare as they were 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:50.040 on the ground from that night. And you also, as 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.560 I understand it, you traveled to the location. 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:57.200 So this occurred later and on the basis of that 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:00.960 report that I wrote, I believe that you State Coroner 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:04.320 then asked the Cold Case Squad of the West Australian 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:08.159 Police to allow me to go and do a reconstruction 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:12.199 and simulation of the events that supposedly took place on 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.199 that particular day, and that was the basis of my 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:18.240 second report, which was for the WA Police. 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.040 So essentially you had two cracks at it, didn't you. 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.080 First your role was with the Coroner's court and then 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:27.240 as you say, with the cold case squad the homicide squad. 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.120 So you really did a deep dive, as it were. 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:34.080 Yes, as a deeper dive as I could do given 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:35.119 the circumstances. 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.119 Yes, But in the whole case, you've probably been privy 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:43.679 to the entire caseload of information as it is available. 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.600 I mean, you would be not an orphan, but you 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:48.560 would be one of the few. 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.400 I guess. So nothing was withheld from me that I 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:55.440 know of in making my determinations. 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:59.040 And in terms of determinations, have you ever had a 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:04.560 case where you've been in error, even in hindsight, in 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.240 terms of your assessment your determination. 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.199 I only go on the facts that are presented to 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:14.760 me and using my science background, what is the likelihood 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:19.840 of the facts being consistent? True? In many cases, I 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:22.560 may not be privy to all of the facts, but 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.520 I think in this case, nothing was withheld from me 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:28.800 that I know about. I guess. 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:30.960 The point I'm getting to, Professor is your track record 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:31.600 is pretty. 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:32.840 Good, if you'd like to put it that way. 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.240 Yes, I mean, there has not been a case that 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:37.800 you've looked at so far, even with a rearview mirror, 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:42.360 where you've been proven to be wrong with your assessment. 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.760 Liam, with respect, I've not been proven wrong. It's sometimes 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:49.040 the decision maker, be it the jury or the judge, 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:53.360 waits my evidence differently to the way I wait it. 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:58.520 So let's say decisions can go against my recommendations, but 0:21:58.560 --> 0:21:59.840 that doesn't mean that I'm. 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:05.800 Wrong, understood, But scientifically, your results in your assessment have 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:08.880 not ever been proven to be inaccurate. 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:11.280 Not in those cases that I've looked at. Known. 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:23.680 Okay, So when you first looked at Amy's case, was 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:27.159 there any particular thing that stood out for you? Was 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:31.560 there one thing that looked unusual or extraordinary? 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:35.080 There are about twenty things that looked unusual and extraordinary. 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:39.720 There was so much inconsistency in the witness statements and 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:44.240 in what people had said had occurred, and the evidence 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:48.320 such as it was that I was presented with. So 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:52.040 the whole thing from the start did not ring true. 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.680 And it's unfortunate that those various witnesses had not been 0:22:55.720 --> 0:23:00.119 interrogated correctly or properly at the time. Not much so 0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:04.800 the witness statements information made sense to me. The only 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:08.840 thing that made sense was the report of the attending 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:12.760 uniformed officers who were the first people on the scene, 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:14.639 apart from those witnesses. 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:19.359 The first three constables, that's right, Professor. The witness testimonies, 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:24.800 particularly from Gareth Price and David Simmons, what did you 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:25.440 make of those? 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:31.320 They had plenty of time to get their story straight. 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:35.240 But when it came to what they witnessed when they 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:39.439 walked into the bedroom, and David Simmons was apparently the 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:44.160 first person to go into the bedroom, followed sometime later 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:48.320 by Gareth Price. Those stories did not match up, so 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:50.320 there were still glaring inconsistencies. 0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:52.479 Is that fair to say? Or am I overdoing it? 0:23:52.760 --> 0:23:56.120 There were inconsistencies. Once they described what they saw when 0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:59.520 they went into the room, they were quite consistent with 0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:03.520 the the story that they were suggesting that they were 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:07.200 both standing out by the car with the children in 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:11.199 the car and they both heard a loud bang. That 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:14.280 part of it was consistent between the two of them. 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:18.200 Can we drill down a little bit on that room? 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:18.600 Yes? 0:24:18.720 --> 0:24:20.840 Can we talk about the bedroom, because, as I say, 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:24.720 you had the benefit of being allowed back into that 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:29.359 room Amy's bedroom at a later date in order to 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:32.640 do some of your tests and some of your simulations. 0:24:33.000 --> 0:24:36.879 Yes, that particular house was occupied by a third party 0:24:37.200 --> 0:24:39.720 who were very generous in allowing us to go back 0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:43.360 and do our recreations and simulations. As you walk through 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:46.680 the house, you come to the main bedroom. There is 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:49.520 a door into that bedroom which opens into an alcove. 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:52.359 The bed is on the left, hand side as you're 0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:55.960 facing that, and straight ahead is a wardrobe. So the 0:24:56.080 --> 0:24:59.120 little alcove is bordered by the wardrobe on the far 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:03.560 side of wall, and the door the bed is off 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:04.480 to the left. 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:07.879 As I say, can you recall with clarity when you 0:25:07.920 --> 0:25:12.440 went in there to start those tests, what it looked 0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:15.840 like and how you felt about what had happened. 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:21.000 Yes, we were very fortunate. Even though the detectives shut 0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:25.680 the scene down and declared it a suicide and therefore 0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:30.800 there was no opportunity for proper forensic photographs, etc. We're 0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:33.640 very fortunate that one of the attending uniformed officers took 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:37.120 photographs at the time, so we were able to set 0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:40.000 the room up pretty much exactly the way it was 0:25:40.840 --> 0:25:42.320 as seen in those photographs. 0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:45.600 There was Constable Roberts, I think, yes, So from his 0:25:45.680 --> 0:25:49.320 photographs you sort of pieced it together. Yes, And what 0:25:49.359 --> 0:25:50.520 conclusion did you come to? 0:25:51.040 --> 0:25:54.639 So my conclusion has always been, from that very first 0:25:55.040 --> 0:25:57.720 report that I did for the coroner, is that Amy 0:25:57.760 --> 0:26:02.680 Wensley did not shoot us, did not did not definitively 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:07.560 as definitively as I can be as a scientist, there's 0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:11.760 always a small percentage of doubt but as definitively as 0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:14.359 I can be, she did not take a gun and 0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:18.439 shoot herself in the manner that people have described. Is 0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:22.160 there a particular reason which makes you so sure? From 0:26:22.160 --> 0:26:26.119 that bedroom scene? There are probably half a dozen reasons which, 0:26:26.520 --> 0:26:31.040 when taken together, mean that, in my view, it would 0:26:31.080 --> 0:26:36.160 be biomechanically impossible, let's say, for her to have shot 0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:40.720 herself and then the scene to have been left the 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:46.040 way we saw it in those photographs taken by Constable Roberts. 0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:49.000 What are the most compelling for you, professor? 0:26:49.280 --> 0:26:52.960 So the most compelling is the position that Amy was 0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:58.960 found in the blood and other biological material spatter on 0:26:59.040 --> 0:27:02.639 the wall adjacent to her left side of her head 0:27:03.000 --> 0:27:08.280 and shoulder, the upright position of her head, the almost 0:27:08.320 --> 0:27:13.760 horizontal entry and exit points of the wound, the position 0:27:14.080 --> 0:27:17.520 most importantly of her right hand, and her right hand 0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:22.640 was in the photograph, tucked under her right thigh, right 0:27:22.720 --> 0:27:26.919 up near her buttock and virtually completely covering her right hand. 0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:31.400 The other two important bits of information are that, even 0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:36.040 though there was a limited forensics taken after this, Dr 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:39.240 Pitts was able to show that there was gunpowder resnue 0:27:39.280 --> 0:27:43.200 on Amy's left hand, but not on her right hand, 0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:46.840 which is tucked underneath her thigh. And there was transfer 0:27:47.000 --> 0:27:51.320 blood on both the barrel of the gun and Amy's 0:27:51.400 --> 0:27:54.480 left hand, but nothing on her right hand. So they're 0:27:54.520 --> 0:27:58.159 the important bits of information that lead me to my conclusion. 0:27:58.520 --> 0:28:01.159 So in terms of a scientific eg saw puzzle, it 0:28:01.359 --> 0:28:02.600 just didn't add up. 0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:03.200 That's correct. 0:28:03.280 --> 0:28:05.520 The pieces are just in the wrong position. 0:28:05.960 --> 0:28:10.080 They are they are for the various scenarios that were 0:28:10.119 --> 0:28:15.879 put by the detectives to promulgate their notion of suicide. Indeed, 0:28:15.880 --> 0:28:19.160 we had an opportunity go and test other scenarios where 0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:23.159 Amy perhaps could have held begun in a different manner, 0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:27.600 and then both of those I can discard for the 0:28:27.640 --> 0:28:29.800 fact that they don't match up with the other parts 0:28:29.840 --> 0:28:30.520 of the evidence. 0:28:30.600 --> 0:28:33.800 Can we put a figure on it? Because when we're 0:28:33.840 --> 0:28:37.919 talking about using science as you do, you're only dealing 0:28:37.920 --> 0:28:41.520 with the facts as they are, the cold heart clinical facts. 0:28:42.680 --> 0:28:48.880 Is there a hard scientific percentage? I mean when you 0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:53.320 say you concluded Amy did not shoot herself. 0:28:53.520 --> 0:28:57.120 So in science we're always dealing with probabilities. You know, 0:28:57.200 --> 0:29:01.400 we test hypotheses. There are some limitations to our tests 0:29:01.600 --> 0:29:04.320 and those have to be acknowledged and That's why we 0:29:04.400 --> 0:29:08.320 never say with one hundred percent certainty that a equals 0:29:08.360 --> 0:29:11.160 be if you like, so, if you ask me for 0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:13.320 a percentage, I would say that, you know, the ninety 0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:17.320 five percent confidence that I would have is that my 0:29:17.480 --> 0:29:21.520 suggestion that she did not kill herself is true. Ninety 0:29:21.520 --> 0:29:23.320 five percent sure, ninety five percent. 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:28.120 See, it's fascinating because your conclusion and the results of 0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:35.040 your simulations are almost identical to that of Scott Rhoder's experiments. 0:29:35.240 --> 0:29:38.960 And as you know, Scott Roder is a similar forensic 0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:44.200 biomechanical expert who we brought to Sydney from Los Angeles, 0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:49.000 has dealt with dozens of American police forces and consulted 0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:52.280 to a lot of different homicide units in the States. 0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:58.600 He recreated that bedroom to the centimeter in a studio 0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:03.320 in Sydney and did exactly the same barrage of tests 0:30:03.360 --> 0:30:05.880 in his own way and came to exactly the same 0:30:05.880 --> 0:30:07.000 conclusion that you've come to. 0:30:07.680 --> 0:30:10.320 I would hope, so, Lene, if he's worth his salt, 0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:12.680 Science doesn't lie, does it. I guess that's what you're 0:30:12.720 --> 0:30:16.920 pointing to. The Scientific aspects of this don't lie. The 0:30:17.040 --> 0:30:21.680 human aspects can be manipulated let's say. 0:30:21.840 --> 0:30:25.160 So, then you went ahead and made your final report. Yes, 0:30:25.240 --> 0:30:27.240 and that went to the police. Yes, and in that 0:30:27.280 --> 0:30:28.480 final report. 0:30:28.800 --> 0:30:31.800 And correct me where I'm wrong here, But you basically said, 0:30:31.840 --> 0:30:37.080 the evidence that you found overwhelmingly suggests that Amy did 0:30:37.120 --> 0:30:38.480 not shoot herself. 0:30:38.800 --> 0:30:39.480 That's correct. 0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:41.280 And what was the police reaction to that? 0:30:42.480 --> 0:30:44.680 I did not get a reaction from the police at 0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:46.880 the time. They simply took that and took it to 0:30:46.960 --> 0:30:50.320 the coroner. And so the next time I encountered the 0:30:50.320 --> 0:30:52.760 police was in the coronial inquest. 0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:56.920 Well, we know what the reaction was from police to 0:30:57.000 --> 0:31:00.480 get another opinion. It's funny because they didn't, but going 0:31:00.520 --> 0:31:03.880 for another opinion when they got say the psychologists report 0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:08.400 from the internal police psychologists back to you, Liam, you 0:31:08.520 --> 0:31:12.240 then asked Professor Acklan what he thought of the coroner's finding. 0:31:12.640 --> 0:31:16.280 Yes, that was the deputy coroner, I believe, and she 0:31:16.440 --> 0:31:19.680 delivered an open finding. But she did give weight to 0:31:20.640 --> 0:31:25.440 the evidence of the various experts, and she was I 0:31:25.480 --> 0:31:29.160 think the words were convinced that there was some doubt 0:31:29.200 --> 0:31:33.240 about the histories that were purported to have happened by 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:38.080 the various witnesses. So there was doubt, but for reasons 0:31:38.120 --> 0:31:40.920 of her own. She could not deliver anything other than 0:31:40.960 --> 0:31:43.360 an open finding. Were you surprised? 0:31:43.640 --> 0:31:48.160 I was surprised you were, Yes, because again you have 0:31:48.320 --> 0:31:51.360 had access like no one else to all the information, 0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:55.400 the photographs, the witness statements, and then conducted your own 0:31:55.440 --> 0:31:58.360 experiments in situ at the crime scene. 0:31:58.680 --> 0:32:02.720 Yeah. We must remember that simulations and reconstructions come with 0:32:02.800 --> 0:32:05.960 a number of limitations. For example, we used a live 0:32:06.120 --> 0:32:11.680 model similar size, age, weight, etc. As Amy. We used 0:32:11.960 --> 0:32:15.680 a replica gun which was loaded with blank bullets to 0:32:15.720 --> 0:32:20.440 be exactly the same weight. All of those things are limitations. 0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:23.920 They have to be acknowledged as limitations, and it just 0:32:23.960 --> 0:32:26.680 depends on the decision maker as to how much weight 0:32:26.720 --> 0:32:30.800 they put on those limitations compared to the eventual conclusions 0:32:30.800 --> 0:32:32.240 that I came to have. 0:32:32.440 --> 0:32:36.400 You worked on any cases, Professor, where you have made 0:32:36.480 --> 0:32:41.200 such a definitive conclusion and they haven't gone to trial. 0:32:42.080 --> 0:32:42.280 No. 0:32:43.240 --> 0:32:46.200 Is there anything about Amy's case that troubles you? 0:32:46.720 --> 0:32:49.520 Yes. The longer this goes on, it troubles me more 0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:52.480 and more that I believe an injustice has been done, 0:32:52.920 --> 0:32:56.000 and it's part of the reason why I'm sitting here today. 0:32:56.520 --> 0:32:58.640 You're in a difficult position. I've got to say, because 0:32:58.880 --> 0:33:02.120 police still call upon you as they should for your 0:33:02.120 --> 0:33:06.920 professional opinion in other cases. Yes, and so you walk 0:33:06.920 --> 0:33:09.200 a fine line, don't you. You have to deal in 0:33:09.200 --> 0:33:13.440 fact you're a scientist. But there's also the politics of this. 0:33:13.960 --> 0:33:17.120 There is a lot of politics around this. But I 0:33:18.480 --> 0:33:22.160 deal with the facts and my job as an expert 0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:25.640 is to provide the best information I can to the 0:33:25.680 --> 0:33:28.560 decision maker, if that's the coroner or a judge or 0:33:28.600 --> 0:33:31.560 a jury. That's my job and I will do that 0:33:31.720 --> 0:33:35.479 honestly to the best of my ability. And that's what 0:33:35.560 --> 0:33:38.600 I do. If the police wish to use me and 0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:41.960 like what I do, then I'm very happy to work 0:33:42.200 --> 0:33:44.000 with them. I do a lot of work for the 0:33:44.120 --> 0:33:47.400 WA Police at minimal cost, let's say, because I feel 0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:48.960 it's my duty to help. 0:33:49.280 --> 0:33:51.600 Well, you have a very good reputation. Thank you, well, 0:33:51.680 --> 0:33:52.600 you've earned it. 0:33:52.880 --> 0:33:55.560 I mean, it's one of the reasons that former Coroner 0:33:55.880 --> 0:33:59.120 Vicar decided upon the receipt of your report to afford 0:33:59.160 --> 0:34:02.360 it to the DPPs because it carries weight. I hope 0:34:02.440 --> 0:34:05.440 something yes, And just a reminder for our listeners here, 0:34:05.680 --> 0:34:09.759 Al evel And Vicker was the first coroner who was 0:34:09.800 --> 0:34:13.400 assigned Amy's case. Now, she was another key person in 0:34:13.480 --> 0:34:17.680 this whole chain who was privy to the details, all 0:34:17.680 --> 0:34:21.400 the details, and did not agree with the WA police's 0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:25.839 conclusion that Amy killed herself. We'll be speaking with her 0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:30.239 in the next episode. Now back to Professor Ackland. I'm 0:34:30.239 --> 0:34:33.719 asking him about any possible connection that he has with 0:34:33.840 --> 0:34:38.680 Amy's case prior to officially getting involved. Now, this is 0:34:38.680 --> 0:34:41.600 important for people living outside Perth because those of us 0:34:41.719 --> 0:34:44.399 who live there know how tight the community is. As 0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:48.080 we've discussed, even if we don't know somebody directly, we 0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:50.560 often know of them, or we know somebody else who's 0:34:50.880 --> 0:34:54.000 had some sort of involvement. Is there any personal connection 0:34:54.080 --> 0:34:56.880 for you, Professor, And I don't mean with the particular 0:34:56.880 --> 0:35:01.440 players in this case, in Amy's story, but being exposed 0:35:01.680 --> 0:35:05.200 to the sort of information and the pictures and all 0:35:05.280 --> 0:35:07.719 the things that go with it in cases like this, 0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:09.520 does it have an impact person. 0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:12.719 I try to remain dispassionate as much as I can, 0:35:13.040 --> 0:35:16.160 and that serves me very well in most of the 0:35:16.200 --> 0:35:18.719 other cases that I'm involved with. But I guess this 0:35:18.760 --> 0:35:22.280 one's a little bit different. It's gone on for some time, 0:35:22.520 --> 0:35:26.239 and I just get the feeling that you know, the 0:35:26.320 --> 0:35:31.600 evidence hasn't been weighted in the best way possible for 0:35:31.719 --> 0:35:32.920 Amy to get justice. 0:35:33.440 --> 0:35:37.200 What has to happen, though scientifically in this case, because 0:35:37.200 --> 0:35:40.080 we can't go back and change any of that, shall 0:35:40.120 --> 0:35:45.040 I say, nightmarish litany of mistakes at the actual crime 0:35:45.120 --> 0:35:48.719 scene on the night So that does leave all that 0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:51.720 potential forensic evidence missing forever. 0:35:52.000 --> 0:35:52.800 Yes, that's true. 0:35:52.920 --> 0:35:54.279 So how does it progress? 0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:58.560 I think it can progress if those various players who 0:35:58.600 --> 0:36:03.320 were witnesses on the scene have an opportunity to present 0:36:03.400 --> 0:36:07.520 themselves in a criminal case and be cross examined and 0:36:08.120 --> 0:36:12.560 interrogated if you like, to find out the veracity of 0:36:12.600 --> 0:36:15.520 their stories and where the holes lie. The holes which 0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:19.719 I saw in my report, but others need to see 0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:21.160 that and hear that for themselves. 0:36:21.719 --> 0:36:24.520 So what you're suggesting, if I may be so bold, 0:36:24.920 --> 0:36:27.120 is the DPP needs to take a leap of faith, 0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:30.680 based on the available evidence that's already there in the 0:36:30.719 --> 0:36:34.879 bottom drawer, go to trial and litigate the whole thing. 0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:37.680 I wouldn't like to tell the DPP what to do. 0:36:37.760 --> 0:36:40.640 They have their whole series of things that they must 0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:42.799 check off. But let me say that I would be 0:36:42.960 --> 0:36:45.040 very pleased to see that happen. 0:36:45.600 --> 0:36:48.719 I don't want to sound morbid about this or gruesome, 0:36:49.360 --> 0:36:53.080 but one thing that's always struck me as highly unusual 0:36:53.440 --> 0:36:56.719 in this case is the position of the wound on 0:36:56.760 --> 0:37:03.160 Amy's head, the entry specifically for person so tiny and 0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:07.080 also be just generally and correct me if I'm wrong here. 0:37:07.120 --> 0:37:10.279 I might be completely off the beaten track. But if 0:37:10.320 --> 0:37:13.719 anyone is going to suicide with a weapon like that, 0:37:14.560 --> 0:37:16.279 I would have thought the last thing you would try 0:37:16.320 --> 0:37:21.600 to do is shoot yourself horizontally. Am I being nice? 0:37:22.320 --> 0:37:23.399 You're right on the mark. 0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:27.640 If I could take you back to the scenario that 0:37:27.800 --> 0:37:31.120 was painted by the detectives who were on the scene, 0:37:31.600 --> 0:37:34.719 who called it very early in my view, a suicide. 0:37:35.600 --> 0:37:41.440 They suggested that Amy had held this shotgun with her 0:37:41.520 --> 0:37:45.920 left hand only out here on her right hand side, 0:37:46.560 --> 0:37:49.200 and shot herself that way. This was because her right 0:37:49.239 --> 0:37:53.440 hand was tucked up underneath her buttocks. There's a whole 0:37:53.480 --> 0:37:57.200 bunch of problems with that. We recreated this scenario with 0:37:57.719 --> 0:38:01.759 the police officer, who, by the way, was naive to 0:38:01.840 --> 0:38:04.560 the story. She had not seen any of the photographs, 0:38:04.920 --> 0:38:09.759 and she acted under my direction. So we supported that 0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:13.920 shotgun with some strings and she was able to reach 0:38:14.040 --> 0:38:16.880 the trigger out here on her right hand side with 0:38:16.920 --> 0:38:19.800 her left hand, but she couldn't support the weight and 0:38:20.719 --> 0:38:23.760 aim the shotgun. It was very you know, it moved 0:38:23.800 --> 0:38:28.520 around a lot. And so the detectives were challenged by 0:38:29.040 --> 0:38:32.719 one of the police officers, Reynolds, I believe, and they said, well, 0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:37.000 obviously she's supported the butt onto the beder, onto the 0:38:37.080 --> 0:38:40.960 floor and still used this very awkward action with her 0:38:41.040 --> 0:38:44.200 left hand and pushed the trigger, not pulled the trigger, 0:38:44.200 --> 0:38:48.000 but pushed the trigger away. Now, all of that does 0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:51.359 not make sense because if she had leant over this 0:38:51.440 --> 0:38:55.440 way towards her right and pushed the trigger, then the 0:38:55.480 --> 0:38:59.000 exit wound would have spattered blood high up on that wall. 0:38:59.560 --> 0:39:03.120 She would probably fallen over as well onto the right side, 0:39:03.480 --> 0:39:05.160 and the gun would have been out to the right 0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:08.280 hand side. This is a nonsense, This is a fiction. 0:39:08.920 --> 0:39:11.080 It cannot have happened that way. And the reason for 0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:15.120 that is because Amy was found sitting upright in the alcove. 0:39:15.200 --> 0:39:18.920 Her head was upright, leaning against the wall. The blood 0:39:18.920 --> 0:39:22.879 spatter and other material was next to her left side 0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:27.480 of her face and down by her shoulder, so almost horizontal. Yes, 0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:31.239 the entry and exit wound. We didn't have good forensics, 0:39:31.280 --> 0:39:34.880 but you know, the physics don't lie. The entry and 0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:39.480 exit wounds were almost horizontal, probably slightly downward, and the 0:39:39.520 --> 0:39:42.880 exit room was near where that blood spatter material was 0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:47.920 there on that so the scenario painted by the detectives 0:39:47.920 --> 0:39:51.239 at the time could not have been possible given the 0:39:51.600 --> 0:39:55.480 other evidence. The other evidence also includes the fact that 0:39:55.520 --> 0:39:57.800 if she was pushing the trigger with her right hand, 0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:01.840 she couldn't have blood materi there and she couldn't have 0:40:01.920 --> 0:40:07.319 gunpowder residue. So clearly, in my view, if she has 0:40:07.400 --> 0:40:09.839 committed suicide, she can't have done it in that way. 0:40:10.520 --> 0:40:12.440 So part of what we tried to do was to 0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:16.080 look for other scenarios where she might have committed suicide 0:40:16.200 --> 0:40:20.080 using a different approach, and the most logical approach one 0:40:20.080 --> 0:40:22.560 would think about it would be to use the gun 0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:26.120 and push the trigger with the right hand and maybe 0:40:26.160 --> 0:40:29.440 hold and support the barrel of the gun with the 0:40:29.520 --> 0:40:32.759 left hand. This means that the gunpowder residue on the 0:40:32.840 --> 0:40:36.080 left hand and the transfer blood on that left hand 0:40:36.360 --> 0:40:40.560 would have been there, as was found no blood residue 0:40:40.560 --> 0:40:44.799 on the right hand and no gunpowder residue. It also 0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:47.600 means she could have probably stayed up right. The trouble 0:40:47.600 --> 0:40:52.000 with all of that is when a person is immediately deceased, 0:40:52.200 --> 0:40:56.040 they can't move and move things around. They fall. The 0:40:56.080 --> 0:41:00.440 limbs will fall in that position, and the gun fall 0:41:00.800 --> 0:41:03.959 and probably go out to the right given the action 0:41:04.160 --> 0:41:07.960 reaction Newton's third law. When we did this simulation, the 0:41:08.080 --> 0:41:12.319 right hand dropped down by her side, nowhere near where 0:41:12.360 --> 0:41:16.200 it was found and photographed underneath her thigh and buttock. 0:41:16.440 --> 0:41:18.759 Who had us her arm managed to be tucked under 0:41:18.760 --> 0:41:19.320 her buttock. 0:41:19.520 --> 0:41:23.759 It can't happen, not by her anyway. So these were 0:41:23.800 --> 0:41:28.400 inconsistencies even with that scenario that I painted, made even 0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:33.200 worse by Gareth Price, who entered second into the room 0:41:33.560 --> 0:41:36.399 and said that the gun was lying with the butt 0:41:36.520 --> 0:41:40.440 by her feet and the barrel by her head. Now, 0:41:40.520 --> 0:41:43.279 David Simmons says he walked into the room and he 0:41:43.360 --> 0:41:46.680 did not move the body. So we've got a second 0:41:46.719 --> 0:41:49.400 witness who says that the gun was lying this way. 0:41:50.080 --> 0:41:52.879 If she'd shot herself, then the blood spatter would be 0:41:52.880 --> 0:41:55.799 behind and the gun may have ended up there. But 0:41:56.080 --> 0:41:58.400 all of the other information is incorrect. 0:41:58.480 --> 0:41:59.320 It made no sense. 0:41:59.480 --> 0:42:02.560 It made no sense, so on the basis of those things, 0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:06.279 I was able to discount the suggestion that Amy had 0:42:06.360 --> 0:42:10.040 killed herself, either in the scenario purported by the detectives 0:42:10.239 --> 0:42:12.240 and in the one that sort of made more logical 0:42:12.320 --> 0:42:14.319 sense if you were going to take a gun and 0:42:14.320 --> 0:42:18.040 shoot yourself. Yes, So the only thing that then made sense, 0:42:18.400 --> 0:42:23.400 And partly because this trajectory of the entry and exit 0:42:23.440 --> 0:42:27.279 were in the trajectory of the pellets was horizontal but 0:42:27.360 --> 0:42:30.360 slightly downward. The fact that Price said that the gun 0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:35.520 was placed here led me to conclude that Amy was 0:42:35.560 --> 0:42:39.880 shot by a third party and the gun was placed there. Now, 0:42:39.880 --> 0:42:43.200 if we believe what Price says, he took that gun 0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:46.160 from that position and threw it on the floor, she 0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:49.000 couldn't have put that gun there. She couldn't have shot 0:42:49.040 --> 0:42:52.080 herself from that position. The gun would have been out 0:42:52.120 --> 0:42:53.320 to the right hand side. 0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:56.600 So, based on every scenario that you've looked at, there 0:42:56.640 --> 0:42:58.600 has to be a third party involved. The only thing 0:42:58.640 --> 0:43:02.840 that makes sense is a third party shot Amy Wensley. 0:43:03.120 --> 0:43:05.799 It's the only thing that's consistent with all the other 0:43:05.840 --> 0:43:09.440 bits of evidence, Lamb. And the question remains, who is 0:43:09.440 --> 0:43:11.160 that third party? That's the question. 0:43:11.760 --> 0:43:15.160 It beggars belief for me that police detectives who trained 0:43:15.239 --> 0:43:18.680 these sorts of things, or even minus the training, just 0:43:18.680 --> 0:43:22.880 with their common sense, can't come even half way to 0:43:22.920 --> 0:43:23.800 the same conclusion. 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:27.719 It was a very strange for me to hear that 0:43:27.760 --> 0:43:31.600 they were sticking with their story through that coronial inquest 0:43:31.880 --> 0:43:33.040 and wouldn't budge from that. 0:43:33.239 --> 0:43:35.520 But these are the same police detectives who didn't even 0:43:35.560 --> 0:43:38.480 want to enter the room, who were told by uniform 0:43:38.480 --> 0:43:41.399 officers when they turned up on the scene that there 0:43:41.480 --> 0:43:45.640 was a dead mum in that bedroom, and they didn't 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:47.480 even want to go in and have a look themselves 0:43:47.520 --> 0:43:48.320 with their own eyes. 0:43:48.680 --> 0:43:51.520 I can't recall that as being the case, But I 0:43:51.520 --> 0:43:52.560 will take your point. 0:44:07.040 --> 0:44:09.680 Now, stopping there for a minute, Liam, and you make 0:44:09.719 --> 0:44:13.280 this point. Of course, this was never about WA police 0:44:13.360 --> 0:44:16.160 as a whole, because there were so many officers there 0:44:16.200 --> 0:44:19.160 wanting to do the right thing. The thing that surprises 0:44:19.200 --> 0:44:23.439 me most though, is how those ones were punished while 0:44:23.480 --> 0:44:26.120 the two detectives got a rap over the knuckles, a 0:44:26.120 --> 0:44:30.680 token gesture. Talk about lack of justice. That's it right there. 0:44:31.160 --> 0:44:34.880 How can an organization whose primary purpose is to instill 0:44:35.040 --> 0:44:38.640 justice have any credibility when they continue to deny it 0:44:38.640 --> 0:44:40.160 for Amy and her family. 0:44:42.800 --> 0:44:44.399 Yeah, it's a hard one, isn't it. 0:44:44.680 --> 0:44:46.160 I've got to say, though, I don't think we're the 0:44:46.160 --> 0:44:48.239 only ones who see it this way. In fact, I 0:44:48.280 --> 0:44:49.759 know we're not the only ones who see it this 0:44:49.800 --> 0:44:52.719 way because of the enormous feedback that we've had to 0:44:52.760 --> 0:44:56.560 this podcast, although many of the other feedback streams might 0:44:56.600 --> 0:44:58.759 be a bit more diplomatic the way they put things. 0:44:59.000 --> 0:45:01.880 But look towards the end of our interview, I couldn't 0:45:01.920 --> 0:45:06.520 help lamenting the attitude of authorities ongoing treatment of Amy's 0:45:06.520 --> 0:45:12.040 case to Professor Ackland Now, who of course was pretty 0:45:12.040 --> 0:45:15.480 good about that. He completely understood our frustration. Do you 0:45:15.520 --> 0:45:18.960 think that this case is now held up because people 0:45:18.960 --> 0:45:24.920 who made perhaps erroneous decisions in the first instance ten 0:45:25.000 --> 0:45:27.520 years ago don't want to be embarrassed. 0:45:28.200 --> 0:45:32.479 I suspect that that is the case. People will hold 0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:35.880 a position and defend that position. That's the way of 0:45:35.960 --> 0:45:39.239 human nature. I think that there are people who were 0:45:39.480 --> 0:45:43.760 witnessed to the events and they won't be changing their story. 0:45:44.320 --> 0:45:48.360 So it'll be very interesting to see what the DBP does. 0:45:48.600 --> 0:45:52.360 It will, indeed, But before we go on, as WA 0:45:52.440 --> 0:45:56.359 police are no longer answering any more questions from US, 0:45:56.760 --> 0:46:00.520 I decided to put those questions to WA's new Police Minister, 0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:04.080 Rees Whitby, similar to what we put to Police Commissioner 0:46:04.239 --> 0:46:09.400 Cole Blanche. They were directed at WA Police's credibility among 0:46:09.719 --> 0:46:13.640 new evidence of senior officers pushing for a suicide finding. 0:46:13.960 --> 0:46:17.920 No matter what. Here's what his spokesman said in a statement. 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:21.920 WA Police Special Crime Squad has carriage of the ongoing 0:46:21.960 --> 0:46:25.240 investigation into Amy's death, and there is a million dollar 0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:28.720 reward for information leading to a conviction of the person 0:46:28.880 --> 0:46:33.240 or persons responsible. WA Police have been pursuing a number 0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:37.000 of investigative leads and have committed to presenting any findings 0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:41.080 to the DPP for consideration. I encourage anyone who can 0:46:41.120 --> 0:46:44.080 assist and has information in relation to her death to 0:46:44.160 --> 0:46:48.120 contact crime Stoppers on one eight hundred triple three, triple 0:46:48.200 --> 0:46:53.120 zero or online at www dot crime stoppers, WA dot 0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:54.320 com dot au. 0:46:54.760 --> 0:46:58.560 SI liam I politely replied to his media advisor, first 0:46:58.600 --> 0:47:01.560 by thanking him, but of course also pointing out that 0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:04.800 this didn't answer my questions or even address the issue 0:47:04.800 --> 0:47:06.640 of WA Police's integrity. 0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:10.840 Yeah, well, it's clearly it's a popcorn reply designed to 0:47:10.880 --> 0:47:13.080 make you feel better about the fact that they've read 0:47:13.120 --> 0:47:16.799 it and actually sent something back. I just wish politicians 0:47:16.920 --> 0:47:20.399 and the way they run their offices, including media, would 0:47:20.440 --> 0:47:23.120 just be honest. You know. If they don't want to 0:47:23.120 --> 0:47:25.280 buy into it, they don't want to make a public 0:47:25.320 --> 0:47:28.640 comment about it, just say nothing. I mean, that's really 0:47:28.840 --> 0:47:32.920 quite insulting if the police minister doesn't think there's public 0:47:32.960 --> 0:47:38.279 interest in a case that is so heavily tarnished with 0:47:39.000 --> 0:47:43.040 the dv lens and everyone's trying to well, everyone that 0:47:43.120 --> 0:47:45.880 I know who's responsible is trying to do something to 0:47:45.880 --> 0:47:50.520 make an impact against domestic violence and the rising numbers. 0:47:51.600 --> 0:47:54.719 You know, if a police minister can't find the time 0:47:54.760 --> 0:47:57.440 to do that, just say, just send you back a 0:47:57.480 --> 0:48:01.920 proper message in English. Look, we don't want to be 0:48:01.960 --> 0:48:04.600 part of this particular podcast because we don't want the 0:48:04.600 --> 0:48:07.640 public to hear exactly what we've got to say, because 0:48:07.680 --> 0:48:10.080 you know, for some reason it's the minister is embarrassed, 0:48:10.160 --> 0:48:12.920 or the minister can't do anything, or the minister's not interested. 0:48:13.239 --> 0:48:15.279 Yeah, isn't the lad up? I mean one of those 0:48:15.360 --> 0:48:18.640 operational things that they've got to leave in w a 0:48:18.760 --> 0:48:22.280 police's corner. So I understand that, but when it comes 0:48:22.320 --> 0:48:27.560 to the reputation, the integrity, the perception public confidence in 0:48:27.840 --> 0:48:32.560 WA police, which is severely undermined by the information that's 0:48:32.600 --> 0:48:37.160 come out from our investigation recently where you have a 0:48:37.320 --> 0:48:40.600 former police officer another one saying that they were told 0:48:40.640 --> 0:48:43.880 to treat this as non suspicious and when they didn't, 0:48:44.360 --> 0:48:47.480 they were reprimanded verbally. But you know it was a 0:48:47.840 --> 0:48:51.520 yelled at, which would be I would have thought be 0:48:51.600 --> 0:48:53.560 a misconduct issue at the very least. 0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:56.759 Well, I think again. You know, you use the word integrity, 0:48:57.360 --> 0:49:01.600 but it starts at the top. And I've said this before, 0:49:01.680 --> 0:49:05.720 but what we need and WA is not an orphan 0:49:05.840 --> 0:49:09.360 in this case. If there's a new minister on the 0:49:09.360 --> 0:49:13.360 block in which mister Whitby is, it's about time that 0:49:13.400 --> 0:49:15.520 somebody took a stand and became a minister of the 0:49:15.520 --> 0:49:19.319 Crown for the crown, which is the people, and that's 0:49:19.360 --> 0:49:22.480 who's paying his wages. Sometimes they need to be reminded 0:49:22.480 --> 0:49:26.120 of that. So we want a Minister of Police, not 0:49:26.200 --> 0:49:29.919 a minister for police. We want a minister who's going 0:49:29.960 --> 0:49:33.960 to keep the police on the right track and keep 0:49:34.160 --> 0:49:38.640 the integrity implicit in the running of that police service. 0:49:39.080 --> 0:49:41.640 That's what we need. You know, when's the last time 0:49:41.719 --> 0:49:45.320 you heard a minister who had police as their remit 0:49:46.280 --> 0:49:49.840 be critical at all of what police did. I'm telling you, 0:49:49.880 --> 0:49:55.240 it's like a football club. They become the card carrying 0:49:55.360 --> 0:49:58.720 number one member and it's not right. It's the minister 0:49:58.880 --> 0:50:02.280 is there as the old overseer, he is the boss. 0:50:03.000 --> 0:50:05.840 But they become, as I say, they become the biggest, 0:50:06.160 --> 0:50:07.840 most important part of the fan club. 0:50:07.960 --> 0:50:10.000 At the very least, I would have just said, look, 0:50:10.120 --> 0:50:12.719 I'm going to catch up with the police commissioner about this, 0:50:13.320 --> 0:50:15.160 because obviously I want to make sure that but you know, 0:50:15.239 --> 0:50:17.640 it is a matter for investigation. The kind of a 0:50:17.719 --> 0:50:20.120 way of dealing with this in a more frank and 0:50:20.239 --> 0:50:23.279 honest and you know, at least looking like you care, 0:50:23.360 --> 0:50:26.240 because I don't know if the police commissioner cares because 0:50:26.280 --> 0:50:29.239 he hasn't gotten back to us on it, and he's 0:50:29.280 --> 0:50:31.640 not elected, and I guess they kind of just had 0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:33.680 an election, so they probably don't care too much. But 0:50:34.200 --> 0:50:36.840 you know, I mean, this is this is your reputation, 0:50:37.040 --> 0:50:39.880 and I mean I think that's why people just become 0:50:40.680 --> 0:50:43.960 so yeah, cynical, cynical. 0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:46.760 Yes about politics. Yeah, so you know, there's the BS 0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:49.560 for you. But anyway, we'll move on and hopefully we 0:50:49.719 --> 0:50:53.840 will try and keep magnifying issues that force the judicial 0:50:53.880 --> 0:50:57.160 system to do something about Amy Wensley for her family. 0:51:00.719 --> 0:51:03.399 And on top of that, I see also where Amy's aunt, 0:51:03.560 --> 0:51:07.560 Anna Davy, has also written to the Triple C Commissioner. 0:51:08.120 --> 0:51:12.560 That's the Corruption and Crime Commissioner John mckeckney. See seeing 0:51:12.560 --> 0:51:15.560 the Police minister into that letter. 0:51:15.840 --> 0:51:19.319 Dear Commissioner mckeckney, my name is Anna Davy, and I'm 0:51:19.360 --> 0:51:22.879 writing in regard to the Western Australian police handling of 0:51:22.920 --> 0:51:26.280 the investigation into the death of my niece Amy Wensley, 0:51:26.600 --> 0:51:29.840 who died in June twenty fourteen. As a family, we 0:51:29.920 --> 0:51:33.840 still have concerns over the adequacy of the police investigations 0:51:33.880 --> 0:51:37.640 into Amy's death since twenty fourteen. By way of background, 0:51:38.000 --> 0:51:40.920 in November twenty nineteen, I wrote to the Corruption and 0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:45.640 Crime Commission about Western Australia's police mishandling of Amy's death 0:51:45.680 --> 0:51:49.319 on the night she died and the subsequent investigation by 0:51:49.400 --> 0:51:54.160 Major Crime that followed Operation Johnde. At the time, the 0:51:54.200 --> 0:51:58.640 Corruption and Crime Commission concluded there was reasonable suspicion of 0:51:58.760 --> 0:52:03.200 serious misconduct by Detective Kirkman and Detective Weedman and referred 0:52:03.200 --> 0:52:06.719 the matter back to Western Australian Police Internal affairs. It 0:52:06.840 --> 0:52:10.560 was only after a twenty twenty one coronial inquest determined 0:52:10.960 --> 0:52:14.239 there wasn't enough evidence to conclude Amy killed herself that 0:52:14.280 --> 0:52:18.400 Western Australian Police acknowledged the detectives made mistakes, but not 0:52:18.520 --> 0:52:21.839 that they wrongly concluded Amy took her own life. The 0:52:21.840 --> 0:52:25.440 two detectives each received a warning but no further punishment, 0:52:25.600 --> 0:52:29.799 and our family has never received an apology. At the inquest, 0:52:30.239 --> 0:52:33.640 it was revealed that the officer heading the coronial investigation 0:52:34.239 --> 0:52:37.560 was instructed by the homicide squad to treat Amy's death 0:52:37.560 --> 0:52:42.120 as non suspicious and was then severely reprimanded when she didn't. 0:52:43.040 --> 0:52:46.200 This is yet more evidence of the extensive mishandling of 0:52:46.239 --> 0:52:50.359 Amy's case and their bias applied to investigations to try 0:52:50.400 --> 0:52:54.640 to manipulate a suicide finding. A transcript of the inquest 0:52:54.680 --> 0:52:57.239 is not available to our family, and we have tried 0:52:57.280 --> 0:52:59.440 on a number of occasions to obtain a copy, but 0:52:59.520 --> 0:53:02.560 to know of it. However, I urged the Corruption and 0:53:02.560 --> 0:53:06.160 Crime Commission to obtain a copy to read the extraordinary 0:53:06.239 --> 0:53:11.000 bias applied by the police hierarchy for yourselves. It's clear 0:53:11.400 --> 0:53:15.080 Western Australian police attempted to cover up mismanagement of Amy's case, 0:53:15.400 --> 0:53:19.600 which is at best police misconduct. This has never been investigated. 0:53:20.239 --> 0:53:22.920 We're repeatedly being told now that there's a lot more 0:53:22.920 --> 0:53:26.399 awareness in Western Australian police of the sometimes hidden nature 0:53:26.400 --> 0:53:29.479 of domestic violence than at the time of Amy's death. 0:53:29.960 --> 0:53:33.279 Police Commissioner Cole Blanche even stated that a case like 0:53:33.360 --> 0:53:36.799 Amy's was less likely to happen again after the introduction 0:53:36.960 --> 0:53:39.520 of a two day domestic violence course for police to 0:53:39.600 --> 0:53:43.279 attend and a helpline for more junior police officers to 0:53:43.360 --> 0:53:46.200 call if they feel their concerns were not being heard 0:53:46.280 --> 0:53:50.360 by more senior police. However, earlier this year, a police 0:53:50.400 --> 0:53:55.520 internal investigation found eight Western Australian Police officers did not 0:53:55.600 --> 0:53:58.600 perform their duty in their lead up to the Floreate 0:53:58.719 --> 0:54:02.439 murders the Bombard case. It does not seem like much 0:54:02.440 --> 0:54:06.600 has changed since Amy's death. Feeling helpless against an organization 0:54:06.760 --> 0:54:10.480 such as Western Australian Police, I sought help from investigative 0:54:10.560 --> 0:54:14.719 journalists to help uncover all the material required to see 0:54:14.760 --> 0:54:18.000 Amy's case finally be heard in a criminal court. Their 0:54:18.000 --> 0:54:21.360 work has been published on Spotlight and the podcast The 0:54:21.400 --> 0:54:24.880 Truth About Amy Is This what policing has come down to. 0:54:25.760 --> 0:54:29.360 Late last year, the Western Australian Police relented following negative 0:54:29.360 --> 0:54:34.000 publicity about their failure to investigate Amy's case properly and 0:54:34.120 --> 0:54:37.440 formed a task force to review Amy's case and prepare 0:54:37.560 --> 0:54:40.640 a report for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecution. 0:54:41.440 --> 0:54:44.480 We are pleased about this, but given their approach to 0:54:44.480 --> 0:54:48.879 Operation Johnde and what they told the coronial inquest, our 0:54:48.960 --> 0:54:53.440 family is concerned Western Australian Police will continue to perpetuate 0:54:53.600 --> 0:54:57.759 the very inaccurate theory of suicide, which has now been 0:54:57.840 --> 0:55:02.840 debunked by three biomechanical experts, or find excuses not to 0:55:02.880 --> 0:55:06.680 support a prosecution. I note with interest that the Corruption 0:55:06.760 --> 0:55:10.880 and Crime Commission website states that during October twenty twenty 0:55:10.880 --> 0:55:15.800 four to December twenty twenty four you assessed five hundred 0:55:15.880 --> 0:55:21.279 and seventy three allegations of alleged minor and serious misconduct 0:55:21.320 --> 0:55:26.239 by Western Australian Police. That's an average six complaints a day. 0:55:27.000 --> 0:55:31.040 There is clearly a serious issue within Western Australian Police 0:55:31.400 --> 0:55:35.280 and it has been frustrating and negatively impacting my family 0:55:35.360 --> 0:55:38.920 now for more than a decade. I urge you to 0:55:39.040 --> 0:55:43.800 please undertake a new investigation into Western Australian Police's handling 0:55:43.880 --> 0:55:47.440 of the case of Amy Wensley relating to Operation Johndee, 0:55:47.840 --> 0:55:50.720 the Homicide Squad's attempt to have an officer in charge 0:55:50.760 --> 0:55:54.520 of the coronial investigation treat Amy's case as non suspicious, 0:55:54.880 --> 0:55:59.480 and the obvious bias by senior police officers displayed at 0:55:59.480 --> 0:56:04.080 the coronial inquest. I request you also oversee the current 0:56:04.120 --> 0:56:07.760 investigation being undertaken and receive a copy of the brief 0:56:07.800 --> 0:56:10.880 of evidence when it's provided to the Director of Public 0:56:10.920 --> 0:56:16.040 Prosecution at its conclusion, to ensure Amy's case doesn't continue 0:56:16.080 --> 0:56:19.360 to be mishandled. Please don't hesitate to contact me to 0:56:19.440 --> 0:56:23.360 discuss this matter further, kind regards, Anna Davy. 0:56:24.320 --> 0:56:27.040 The Triple C replied that the matter would be assessed 0:56:27.600 --> 0:56:34.920 and they would contact Anna when the process was complete. Meanwhile, 0:56:34.960 --> 0:56:37.040 as I finished up my interview with Professor Ackland, I 0:56:37.040 --> 0:56:39.640 couldn't help but marvel at the expertise of someone of 0:56:39.680 --> 0:56:43.360 his caliber and his credibility had not managed to convince 0:56:43.680 --> 0:56:47.799 WA Police even before the inquest that Amy could not 0:56:47.960 --> 0:56:50.799 possibly have shot herself. He did well though, to try 0:56:50.840 --> 0:56:55.040 to give them the benefit of the doubt. But once again, 0:56:55.200 --> 0:56:58.439 of course, he emphasized his findings were based on a reconstruction, 0:56:58.880 --> 0:57:01.160 and fair enough, that's the margin of erar, isn't it. 0:57:01.160 --> 0:57:02.880 That's what he's saying. Look, you know it can't be 0:57:02.880 --> 0:57:06.399 perfect because it's a reconstruction. But still it obviously does 0:57:06.480 --> 0:57:10.919 bother him that they're not being taken more seriously, particularly 0:57:11.239 --> 0:57:13.880 when taken into consideration with the other evidence. 0:57:14.360 --> 0:57:17.400 Ninety five percent lamb, he said, ninety five percent. 0:57:17.600 --> 0:57:18.120 He was sure. 0:57:18.240 --> 0:57:19.800 Ninety five percent. Yeah, amazing in that. 0:57:20.080 --> 0:57:22.320 I mean from bloke has been around this stuff his 0:57:22.400 --> 0:57:25.240 whole life, you know, forty five years, all that experience, 0:57:25.240 --> 0:57:27.800 all that expertise. I mean he's seen this guy's seen 0:57:28.000 --> 0:57:30.840 stuff that you know, would keep people awake at night, 0:57:31.160 --> 0:57:35.200 and he says ninety five percent. It's good enough for me. 0:57:35.960 --> 0:57:38.800 Well, that's a maximum because he's always got to account 0:57:38.840 --> 0:57:39.560 for the margin of era. 0:57:39.920 --> 0:57:42.960 You've always got a margin of ra Yeah. 0:57:42.120 --> 0:57:44.720 As you know, I spoke to Professor Ackland about this too, 0:57:44.840 --> 0:57:45.880 and this is what he told me. 0:57:46.680 --> 0:57:51.240 My original thoughts were that there was so much in 0:57:50.080 --> 0:57:55.440 the evidence trail that was inconsistent, even down to the 0:57:55.720 --> 0:57:59.240 witness statements by the people who were there at the time, 0:57:59.440 --> 0:58:04.400 David Simmans, his friend, Gareth Price, David's father, as well 0:58:04.680 --> 0:58:05.520 Robert Simmons. 0:58:06.160 --> 0:58:10.960 There was a veneer of consistency. But when I looked 0:58:11.240 --> 0:58:16.480 with my forensic head hat on, it didn't hang together 0:58:16.640 --> 0:58:21.840 very well. In there were aspects of those witness statements 0:58:21.880 --> 0:58:25.920 which were contradictory that weren't picked up by other parties, 0:58:26.160 --> 0:58:28.600 and that was the basis of my report. It was 0:58:28.600 --> 0:58:32.000 simply to say these things don't hang together from a 0:58:32.040 --> 0:58:33.080 logic perspective. 0:58:33.440 --> 0:58:36.520 I then asked him about the ongoing reluctance of WA 0:58:36.640 --> 0:58:40.200 police to change their mind from suicide. I mean, even 0:58:40.480 --> 0:58:44.680 at the inquest after your evidence, they just didn't seem 0:58:44.720 --> 0:58:47.800 to want to contemplate anything other than suicide. 0:58:48.120 --> 0:58:49.720 Yeah, that astounded me actually. 0:58:50.160 --> 0:58:53.400 So the other thing, of course, is about her hand 0:58:53.440 --> 0:58:56.640 being tucked under. There seemed to be some talk about 0:58:56.680 --> 0:59:00.760 how possibly maybe going in in that the door right, 0:59:01.040 --> 0:59:03.640 pushing her body, that sort of thing, But then there 0:59:03.640 --> 0:59:06.880 seems to be contradicting it evidence saying well, her body 0:59:06.880 --> 0:59:10.560 can't have been moved much because of the blood spatter 0:59:10.600 --> 0:59:14.440 and all the other forensic evidence. So is it feasible 0:59:14.960 --> 0:59:18.080 that somehow her body could have been pushed Do you 0:59:18.120 --> 0:59:22.760 think so that her hand ended up under her thigh 0:59:23.200 --> 0:59:24.240 after the fact. 0:59:24.480 --> 0:59:27.080 Yeah, This was a question put to me by the 0:59:27.440 --> 0:59:33.160 cold case detectives. So in order to look at that scenario, 0:59:32.560 --> 0:59:36.640 we had our model seated with both feet up against 0:59:36.720 --> 0:59:39.840 the door as you would imagine someone trying to stop 0:59:40.080 --> 0:59:45.760 someone coming in the door. After ten pushes, each time 0:59:46.000 --> 0:59:49.520 the right knee, which was bent at the time because 0:59:49.560 --> 0:59:53.360 her feet were up against the door, it flopped down 0:59:53.400 --> 0:59:56.440 to the right hand side once that occurred. Once you 0:59:56.520 --> 0:59:59.880 tried to open the door, the knee stopped the door 1:00:00.040 --> 1:00:04.560 from opening more than about halfway. So after ten trials 1:00:04.560 --> 1:00:07.120 of that we were fairly convinced. I was fairly convinced 1:00:07.120 --> 1:00:11.480 that the right leg would have gone from a vertical 1:00:11.520 --> 1:00:15.520 position to a horizontal onto the ground still bent, but 1:00:15.560 --> 1:00:18.440 that the door could not be opened more than about halfway. 1:00:18.520 --> 1:00:22.120 So we marked that position on the floor. We then 1:00:22.400 --> 1:00:25.880 position the hand. So again, if we go back to 1:00:25.920 --> 1:00:29.160 the first set of tests, the right hand did not 1:00:29.360 --> 1:00:32.400 fall anywhere near her thigh. It was out to the side, 1:00:32.960 --> 1:00:37.720 but in order to test this hypothesis, we positioned the 1:00:37.800 --> 1:00:41.680 right hand where it was found to have been or 1:00:42.080 --> 1:00:45.600 to finish up in those photographs. So again I need 1:00:45.640 --> 1:00:47.960 to need to say that this is not where the 1:00:48.040 --> 1:00:51.120 right hand would have finished. We put it there, and 1:00:51.160 --> 1:00:54.600 we had one of the detectives open the door with 1:00:54.680 --> 1:00:58.200 a fair amount of force up to that marked position 1:00:58.280 --> 1:01:01.840 that we had on the ground. And indeed, each time 1:01:02.160 --> 1:01:07.120 the door was stopped by the model's knee on the ground, 1:01:07.160 --> 1:01:09.880 so it really would have taken a lot more force 1:01:10.400 --> 1:01:14.320 to push it even further. After ten trials, we could 1:01:14.360 --> 1:01:20.680 not get that thigh to cover the right hand in 1:01:20.760 --> 1:01:24.680 any way, as shown in that photograph taken by the 1:01:24.840 --> 1:01:26.760 uniformed officers who attended site. 1:01:26.880 --> 1:01:31.280 Okay, so it's safe to say then that that positioning 1:01:31.320 --> 1:01:34.760 of the hand was in that position when she died 1:01:35.160 --> 1:01:37.400 like that, that didn't move into that position. 1:01:37.600 --> 1:01:38.680 That was my conclusion. 1:01:38.800 --> 1:01:42.160 Yes, I know that we can't really say where the 1:01:42.200 --> 1:01:46.600 gun fell, particularly because I mean the presumption is potentially 1:01:46.640 --> 1:01:49.200 it was moved, so that doesn't help us. But just 1:01:49.480 --> 1:01:53.120 with that position of her hand under the thigh, you 1:01:53.160 --> 1:01:56.320 would think that that would have been enough. Am I 1:01:56.400 --> 1:01:59.640 just looking to basically at this that would be enough 1:02:00.120 --> 1:02:02.280 to say that there's no way she could have, I mean, 1:02:02.360 --> 1:02:05.240 highly unlikely, as you say, to have been up to 1:02:05.320 --> 1:02:05.600 kill us. 1:02:05.800 --> 1:02:08.200 Yeah, there's a whole bunch of things that go along 1:02:08.240 --> 1:02:11.000 with that, Allison. She kind of moved after her gun 1:02:11.120 --> 1:02:13.320 was discharged, so she kind of put her hand there. 1:02:14.040 --> 1:02:16.840 Our simulations show that the thigh could not have been 1:02:16.880 --> 1:02:21.800 pushed over the hand. The lack of biological material and 1:02:21.960 --> 1:02:25.120 residue on the right hand shows that that was nowhere 1:02:25.160 --> 1:02:28.280 near the barrel at the time. If she had used 1:02:28.320 --> 1:02:31.360 the right hand to push the trigger, then it would 1:02:31.400 --> 1:02:34.560 not have finished up in the position that it ended 1:02:34.600 --> 1:02:38.680 up in. And so all of those things combined tell 1:02:38.760 --> 1:02:43.720 me that I'm fairly convinced that Amy did not discharge 1:02:43.760 --> 1:02:47.400 that weapon by herself using her right hand on the trigger, 1:02:48.280 --> 1:02:51.160 nor could she have done so using her left hand 1:02:51.200 --> 1:02:54.200 on the trigger. The various reasons for that is you've 1:02:54.200 --> 1:02:58.040 got to also take into account the horizontal orientation of 1:02:58.080 --> 1:03:02.680 the gun, which has helped the spatter on the wall, 1:03:03.400 --> 1:03:05.440 the location of that, as well as the entry and 1:03:05.520 --> 1:03:09.240 exit rooumds. So all of those things inspire to say 1:03:09.280 --> 1:03:12.000 that she could not have done it. Herself. I do 1:03:12.120 --> 1:03:15.160 go back to the evidence of the witness statements and 1:03:15.640 --> 1:03:18.800 run my ruler over them to see if there's consistency 1:03:18.920 --> 1:03:21.120 and does it match with the evidence that we see 1:03:21.160 --> 1:03:24.120 after the fact. And a lot of things don't match 1:03:24.200 --> 1:03:27.360 up in this case, and I'd just like to go 1:03:27.440 --> 1:03:32.200 through what those people who entered the room said. So 1:03:32.640 --> 1:03:35.560 David Simmons said that when he entered the room after 1:03:35.600 --> 1:03:39.520 they'd heard this shot apparently outside, he said that Amy 1:03:39.640 --> 1:03:42.480 was lying on the floor and the gun was out 1:03:42.520 --> 1:03:45.439 to her right hand side. He then exited the room 1:03:45.480 --> 1:03:48.919 and his mate Gareth Price, said he came straight into 1:03:48.960 --> 1:03:52.240 the room. It was difficult to open the door. Amy 1:03:52.440 --> 1:03:56.560 was seated in that position, and he said that the 1:03:56.680 --> 1:04:00.640 gun was lying on top of her, with the butt 1:04:00.720 --> 1:04:05.400 down by her feet and the barrel resting on her shoulder, 1:04:06.000 --> 1:04:08.040 so in other words, not out to the right hand side, 1:04:08.080 --> 1:04:13.120 but in fact facing her propped up there. So somebody 1:04:13.480 --> 1:04:17.520 is not telling the truth. Clearly, the gun could not 1:04:17.600 --> 1:04:22.600 have been discharged in that position, and the biological material, etc. 1:04:23.440 --> 1:04:27.640 And the entry and exit worns being in the way 1:04:27.680 --> 1:04:31.520 they were in the photographic evidence, so someone has put 1:04:31.560 --> 1:04:35.320 that gun there. Mister Price says that he then took 1:04:35.360 --> 1:04:38.360 the gun and threw it to his left side, which 1:04:38.440 --> 1:04:42.720 is Amy's right side, and that's where David's father, Robert, 1:04:42.760 --> 1:04:45.920 says he found that gun out to the right hand side. 1:04:46.320 --> 1:04:48.800 So I guess what I'm saying is she could not 1:04:48.880 --> 1:04:51.560 have killed herself holding the gun in front of her 1:04:52.040 --> 1:04:54.640 with all those other pieces of evidence. 1:04:54.880 --> 1:04:57.439 One of their issues that has been raised is that 1:04:57.480 --> 1:05:01.160 because forensics was called off, we can't rely upon this. 1:05:01.400 --> 1:05:05.560 But when I listen to you and doctor Gibson and 1:05:05.720 --> 1:05:07.760 Scott Rohta, I mean, there's no way she could have 1:05:07.800 --> 1:05:09.440 killed herself. Sure, it would have been great to have 1:05:09.480 --> 1:05:11.880 all the other forensics, but it seems like you've got enough. Right, 1:05:12.280 --> 1:05:13.080 Am I wrong in that? 1:05:13.600 --> 1:05:15.400 In my view, we've got enough. 1:05:20.600 --> 1:05:20.840 Well. 1:05:21.000 --> 1:05:25.320 Next week, Al the first coroner to see Amy's case, 1:05:25.920 --> 1:05:29.080 really looking forward to letting our listeners hear what she 1:05:29.200 --> 1:05:29.760 has to say. 1:05:30.120 --> 1:05:34.240 What we've got is evidence she didn't pull the trigger herself. 1:05:34.400 --> 1:05:36.680 Some people don't agree with that, but that was probably 1:05:36.800 --> 1:05:37.320 enough for me. 1:05:37.600 --> 1:05:42.040 And how Amy's family is coping As WA Police's latest 1:05:42.080 --> 1:05:44.440 investigation draws to a close. 1:05:44.760 --> 1:06:03.400 We wouldn't be doing not reliving every single time, So de. 1:06:07.440 --> 1:06:08.480 ReBs. 1:06:08.640 --> 1:06:12.240 Now do you. 1:06:24.160 --> 1:06:28.560 If you knew Amy and have information, any information about 1:06:28.600 --> 1:06:33.360 her death, we'd love to hear from you. Just email 1:06:33.480 --> 1:06:38.600 us at the Truth about Amy at seven dot com 1:06:38.920 --> 1:06:43.200 dot au. That's s E V E N The Truth 1:06:43.240 --> 1:06:49.760 about Amy at seven dot com dot Au, or visit 1:06:49.920 --> 1:06:54.320 our website sevenews dot com dot Au forward slash the 1:06:54.480 --> 1:06:58.240 Truth about Amy. You can also send us an anonymous 1:06:58.320 --> 1:07:03.120 tip at www dot the Truth about Amy dot com. 1:07:05.840 --> 1:07:09.000 If you're on Facebook or Instagram, you can follow us 1:07:09.080 --> 1:07:12.920 to see photos and updates relevant to the case, but 1:07:13.160 --> 1:07:16.200 for legal reasons, unfortunately, you won't be able to make 1:07:16.320 --> 1:07:22.600 any comments. And remember, if you like what you're hearing, 1:07:23.040 --> 1:07:27.160 don't forget to subscribe. Please rate and review our series 1:07:27.600 --> 1:07:35.480 because it really helps new listeners to find us. Presenter 1:07:35.600 --> 1:07:42.480 and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and investigative journalist Liam Bartlett, 1:07:44.680 --> 1:07:52.800 Sound design Mark Wright, Assistant producer Cassie Woodward, Graphics Jason Blandford, 1:07:54.360 --> 1:08:10.040 and special thanks to Brian Seymour. This is a seven 1:08:10.320 --> 1:08:11.000 News production.