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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast. Should you trust your

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Speaker 1: children to select their own apps, their own screen limits?

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Speaker 1: Is it reasonable to expect that a teenager who is

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Speaker 1: going to understand what is good for them and what

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Speaker 1: is not. That is our tricky question today from Shannon

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Speaker 1: on the Gold Coast. We're going to step right into

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Speaker 1: this screen dilemma. Next, stay with us.

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Speaker 2: Today.

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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families Podcast, Real Parenting Solutions, every

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Speaker 1: single day. It's Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. We are

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Speaker 1: Justin and Kylie Coulson, and every Tuesday on the pod

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Speaker 1: we answer your tricky questions about screens and family and

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Speaker 1: discipline and relationships and all of the tough stuff that

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Speaker 1: drives you bonkers when it comes to raising your children.

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Speaker 1: If you would like to submit a tricky question, we've

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Speaker 1: got a super simple system at Happy families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot Au. You just scroll down to podcasts, click the

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Speaker 1: record button and start talking. Or you can send a

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Speaker 1: voice note to podcasts at Happy Families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 1: That's podcasts with an s at happy families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot Au. Kylie Today, a question about kids and screens.

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Speaker 3: This is Shannon from the Gold Coast. My question is

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Speaker 3: when speaking to other parents of teenagers, they tell me

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Speaker 3: that they don't need to put filtering applications on their

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Speaker 3: children's devices because they trust their children. I struggle with this,

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Speaker 3: and I'm not quite sure how to navigate these conversations.

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Speaker 3: I also wonder why they think this. I'd appreciate your insight, Kylie.

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Speaker 1: You're making a funny face as you hear that question.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not big on filtering. I don't like filters.

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Speaker 1: I find them time consuming. The kids will find a

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Speaker 1: way around them. I'm not convinced that filter is the

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Speaker 1: best way forward. But I don't trust teenagers when it

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Speaker 1: comes to smartphones. I talk to kids almost every single

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Speaker 1: day in schools, and they've told me quite clearly that

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Speaker 1: we should not be trusting them when it comes to

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Speaker 1: their use of smartphones and their selection of apps and

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Speaker 1: their use of those apps.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting because I probably wouldn't use the word trust

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Speaker 2: when I am thinking about kids and screens.

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Speaker 1: I would. I don't trust them. I don't trust me

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Speaker 1: or you like.

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Speaker 2: They no, but they don't have the they don't have

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Speaker 2: the maturity in any way, shape or form, So trusting

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Speaker 2: them maybe it's just semantics, but I think they don't.

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Speaker 2: They don't have the maturity or the understanding to know

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Speaker 2: what they're actually dealing with, and therefore it's not so

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Speaker 2: much about trust. It's about a lack of skill and

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Speaker 2: a lack of experience. And so for me, it's not

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Speaker 2: so much about trust. It's actually about scaffolding them to

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Speaker 2: set them up for success.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess what's really coming through here with Channon's

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Speaker 1: question is that the parents aren't having the conversations at all.

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Speaker 1: They're not putting any filters on. They just trust their kids,

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Speaker 1: full stop, end of story.

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Speaker 2: They're saying that they trust their kids. But I don't

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Speaker 2: actually think but I think it's just an oversimplified acknowledgment

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Speaker 2: that to do anything else is just too hard. Firstly,

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Speaker 2: and secondly, I think it's ignorance on their part, because

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Speaker 2: I don't actually believe that they have a firm grasp

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Speaker 2: on the filth the playground that their children are navigating.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm going to share a story about that in

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Speaker 1: just a sec. But before I do that, just want

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Speaker 1: to talk about the algorithm real quick. Like parents might

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Speaker 1: often say to me, well, I just don't think it's

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Speaker 1: that bad, And I always said that's because your algorithm

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Speaker 1: gives you all the stuff that you really like. You're

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Speaker 1: getting all the nice, fluffy stuff, the warm stuff you're getting,

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Speaker 1: the things that make you laugh and keep you drawn in.

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Speaker 2: I know when you first started like teaching this stuff,

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Speaker 2: I used to look at you and go, is it

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Speaker 2: really like that? Because, like you said, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 2: My algorithms was giving me all of the feel goods

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Speaker 2: that I was looking for. Yeah, and I still today

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Speaker 2: still struggle to believe that the stuff that's there is

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Speaker 2: out there because I don't find it.

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Speaker 1: So I shared on the pod about six months ago,

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Speaker 1: as I've been writing this Boy's book, I made a

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Speaker 1: terrible mistake with my Instagram and decided that I was

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Speaker 1: going to pretend to be a teenage boy for a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks. So I started liking. I literally started

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Speaker 1: to search for and then like the kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that we hear about boys liking and being fed through

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Speaker 1: their algorithm. And what I forgot was that when I

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Speaker 1: like stuff, that other people who are following me can

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Speaker 1: see what I'm liking. And so our teenage daughter came

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Speaker 1: to you and said, Mummy, you're aware of what that's doing.

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Speaker 1: On Instagram, like, he's been liking some pretty wild stuff.

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Speaker 1: But what happened outside of that? Once we explained what

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Speaker 1: I was doing and the experiment ceased fairly quickly. What

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Speaker 1: did happen is I started to you don't even have

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Speaker 1: to like it, you just have to watch it, And

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Speaker 1: the algorithm is measuring to the millisecond how much time

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Speaker 1: you're spending watching that content, and it starts to feed

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Speaker 1: you more of it. And within about two weeks, my

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Speaker 1: feed became full full of really violent stuff, really misogynistic stuff,

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Speaker 1: and also quite saucy, very very saucy content as well.

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Speaker 1: And I deleted my Instagram account because I was kept

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Speaker 1: on trying to find the stuff that I used to

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Speaker 1: like and like all of that, and the algorithm kept

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Speaker 1: on pushing me that more extreme content and it was

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Speaker 1: not content that I would be comfortable with anyone picking

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Speaker 1: up and seeing. That's what that Experiments have been done

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Speaker 1: where teenage boys have been put in as the like

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Speaker 1: it's a teenage boy using this phone, or as a

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Speaker 1: teenage boys account, even though it's been adults doing it.

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Speaker 1: They've done experiments both in the media and at universities,

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Speaker 1: and they've found exactly what I found when I was

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Speaker 1: doing that experiment pretty wild, pretty intense stuff. So I

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Speaker 1: just want to emphasize you can't trust your kids because

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Speaker 1: they will be fed a whole lot of stuff in

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Speaker 1: their algorithm that you're not being fed in yours.

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Speaker 2: Well, not only that they're following friends, right and like

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Speaker 2: you said, you like something, and then all of your

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Speaker 2: friends know what you liked, and so they're being fed

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Speaker 2: all of their friends stuff regardless of whether they're that

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Speaker 2: kind of kid, because of the very fact that they're

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Speaker 2: playing in the same playground as other kids.

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Speaker 1: Totally, totally, and they all get caught in on their

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Speaker 1: Snapchat group chats or their Instagram group chats or whatever.

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Speaker 1: There's been so many allegations, so many schools now where

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Speaker 1: big groups of like half a grave if not more,

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Speaker 1: are all on these group chats where they're sharing this

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Speaker 1: is the cess pit that they play in, and I

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Speaker 1: think that it's a really big problem. Our kids do

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Speaker 1: need limits, and after the break, we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about what those limits need to be so that you

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Speaker 1: can actually trust your kids to be on these devices.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite analogies is a story shared by

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Speaker 1: Josh Ship. He's an American youth speaker, and he used

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Speaker 1: to he used to talk about this thing where when

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Speaker 1: you're get on a roller coaster, the restraints they come

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Speaker 1: down onto your knees and they come down across your chest,

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Speaker 1: those great big mechanized I mean, I'm calling them restraints whatever,

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Speaker 1: those things, it's a call that hold you in place

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Speaker 1: when the roller coaster is going upside down. And he

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Speaker 1: describes how once they come down, what do we do

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Speaker 1: while we start to push against them and asks why.

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Speaker 1: He explains that we're maybe pushing against them a bit

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Speaker 1: because they're uncomfortable, because they do squeeze you a bit,

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Speaker 1: But more than anything, we're pushing against them because we

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Speaker 1: want to know that they are going to stay in

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Speaker 1: place in thirty seconds when we are upside down and

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Speaker 1: zooming through whatever place the roller coaster is going to

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Speaker 1: take us to. In other words, we say that we

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Speaker 1: don't like the restraints, but we actually need them, We

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Speaker 1: want them, and we're grateful for them. When it comes

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Speaker 1: to kids and limits, whether it's around screens or anything else,

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Speaker 1: I think that that analogy is just perfect, Kylie. It's

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Speaker 1: exactly what we need to focus on.

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Speaker 2: So I push on them a little bit differently. When

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting there, I'm pushing on it. Firstly, I want

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Speaker 2: to test it and make sure it's going to hold me.

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Speaker 2: But secondly, I actually find there's a little bit of movement,

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Speaker 2: and when I'm upside down, I don't like the moon

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Speaker 2: So I like my back firmly pressed against the back

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Speaker 2: of the seat. And if I push against that seatbelt,

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Speaker 2: then I'm going to be sure that I'm not going anywhere.

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Speaker 1: I love it. Okay, So Shannon, here's what we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about. The three e's of effective discipline. This

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Speaker 1: is where we need to land here. Explore, explain empower,

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Speaker 1: and to describe how that works. I want to share

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Speaker 1: one of my all time favorite stories and experience that

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Speaker 1: we had with our eldest daughter when she was thirteen

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Speaker 1: and snapchat had just come on the scene. So for

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Speaker 1: those who are new to the pod and haven't heard

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Speaker 1: it before, Explore Explain empower. It's the three eas of

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Speaker 1: effective discipline. It's a model that I developed probably ten

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Speaker 1: or fifteen years ago, probably a round about the same

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Speaker 1: time that Snapchat came out and I was dealing with

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Speaker 1: our daughter and her challenges. Explore means that we try

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Speaker 1: to see the world through another person's eyes. We get

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Speaker 1: their perspective. Explain means that we make sure that they

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Speaker 1: understand the rationale for our requests. And empower means that

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Speaker 1: we give our kids the opportunity to develop a solution

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Speaker 1: to this challenge with us. It's problem solved together. So

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Speaker 1: let's go back to twenty twelve. Twenty thirteen. Snapchat is

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Speaker 1: fairly new. Sheanelle comes home one day and says, Dad, Dad, Dad,

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Speaker 1: can I please have Snapchat? And my response is no way.

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Speaker 1: You know what I do for work. You know that

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Speaker 1: I'm aware of what Snapchat's all about. There's a huge

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Speaker 1: amount of content that is going out on Snapchat that

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Speaker 1: I'm not comfortable with. So the answer is no. And

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Speaker 1: she says, but Dad, but all my friends have got it.

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Speaker 1: And I said, well, all of your friends are on

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Speaker 1: Facebook Messenger as well. Get them to talk to you

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Speaker 1: on Messenger and she said they won't. I saw, well,

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Speaker 1: that's just silly. Tell them that I said that they

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Speaker 1: have to. And she said, oh right, because they're going

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Speaker 1: to say, well, since your dad says you have to,

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Speaker 1: then that's and she just showed me they were all

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Speaker 1: chatting on Snapchat. But they were not they were ghosting

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Speaker 1: or on Facebook Messenger because they'd all moved on. This

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Speaker 1: was how they were operating in twenty and twelve or

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Speaker 1: whatever it was. And so I said, well, Chanel, I

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Speaker 1: just don't want you to have it, and I'm putting

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Speaker 1: my foot down on the parent and I've got the

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Speaker 1: ride every now and again to just say a flat

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Speaker 1: out no. And she was persistent. She said, Dad, you're

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Speaker 1: supposed to explore, explain, and empower. I've been to your seminars.

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Speaker 1: So she knew that that was what the what the

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Speaker 1: deal was supposed to be, and so she didn't miss much. No, No,

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Speaker 1: I thought to myself, I'm never taking her to a

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Speaker 1: seminar again. So I said, fine, let's explore why do

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Speaker 1: you need it? And she said because all my friends

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Speaker 1: have got it. I said, is that it? And she

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Speaker 1: said yes. I'm like, well, your list is not very good.

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Speaker 1: Here's mine. Let me explain to you why do I

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Speaker 1: want you to have it. So I opened both barrels

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Speaker 1: and gave her like the seven, eight, nine, ten things

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Speaker 1: that kept me from wanting her to be on Snapchat.

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Speaker 1: And I said, so, I'm not going to empower you

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Speaker 1: because my list is better than yours. Like I win

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Speaker 1: it's ten to one or five to one or whatever

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Speaker 1: it is. And I was ready to walk away, and

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Speaker 1: she said, Dad, you're not being fair. And I said

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Speaker 1: it doesn't feel fair, but sometimes as a parent, you've

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Speaker 1: just got to look after your kids. That's my job.

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Speaker 1: And she said, I just want to be on Snapchat

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Speaker 1: with my friends. And I said, tell them to talk

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Speaker 1: to you on Messenger. And then she said something really

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Speaker 1: really smart. She said, Dad, you're telling me to talk

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Speaker 1: to my friends on Messenger when they're on Snapchat. Is

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Speaker 1: like you telling me to go play in the park

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Speaker 1: while all my friends are at the beach. And that

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Speaker 1: just hit different for me that she actually got me.

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Speaker 1: She drew me back in and I said, that's fine.

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Speaker 1: But at the beach there's blue bottles and sharks, there's

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Speaker 1: ribs and sweeps and currents, there's the sun, there's syringes

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Speaker 1: and broken glass in the sand.

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Speaker 2: There's Paul, always finding the problems, always finding the problems.

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Speaker 1: And I said, I don't want you at the beach.

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Speaker 1: I want you in the park. And she looked at me.

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Speaker 1: I kid you not, this is a dead set truly,

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Speaker 1: what she said. She said Dad, have you been to

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Speaker 1: the park lately? And I was like, Oh, she's right,

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Speaker 1: She's right. The park is a concerning place at times.

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Speaker 1: I knew that Facebook Messenger was probably not quite as

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Speaker 1: bad as Snapchat, but was still a concerning place to be.

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Speaker 1: And so that led to us having a conversation about

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Speaker 1: how she could potentially have Snapchat, which was completely different

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Speaker 1: to what I thought the conversation would be ten minutes earlier.

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Speaker 1: And she didn't continue to metaphor conversation. But had she

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Speaker 1: done so? What she was essentially saying is, Dad, if

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Speaker 1: I promised to swim in the flags, slip slop slap

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Speaker 1: were appropriate clothing, stay only with my friends, and let

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Speaker 1: you swing by the beach anytime to check in on

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Speaker 1: me to make sure I'm doing okay, would it be

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Speaker 1: okay if I go to the beach? And I was like, damn,

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Speaker 1: that's good. And so we decided to go for a

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Speaker 1: trial and we never really looked bad. Now does that

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Speaker 1: mean that I trust my child? No, we had high

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Speaker 1: levels of supervision. There was a high level of accountability,

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Speaker 1: but we worked out a solution where we could feel

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Speaker 1: good about this together. Sometimes the answer still has to

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Speaker 1: be no, full stop. End of story. But in that instance,

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Speaker 1: it was fine.

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Speaker 2: The thing that stands out to me with Shannon's question

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Speaker 2: is the realization that often parenting feels like a really

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Speaker 2: lonely game. We are doing it on our own because

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Speaker 2: everyone around us seems to have a different opinion. And

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Speaker 2: the thing we have to remember is that nobody, nobody

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Speaker 2: is going to love our kids the way we will,

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Speaker 2: and it's our job to do everything we can to

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Speaker 2: protect them and keep them safe. But my second thinking

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Speaker 2: around this is the acknowledgment that finding your village of

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Speaker 2: like minded families can take time, but in doing so

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Speaker 2: in so many ways, makes your job so much easier,

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Speaker 2: because when you've got other friends whose parents have the

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Speaker 2: same ideals as you and are striving for the same

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Speaker 2: things as you, all of a sudden, it's no longer

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Speaker 2: you know your child coming home and saying everybody else

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Speaker 2: is doing it because you know X, Y and Z

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Speaker 2: are not.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Build the community, get the relationships, talk to the other parents,

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Speaker 1: form a coalition, but then support your children. You can't

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Speaker 1: just say, well, we've decided no screens. You've got to say,

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Speaker 1: and because there are no screens, here's what we're going

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Speaker 1: to do to support our kids to have healthy lives,

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Speaker 1: healthy relationships, and good balance. The community isn't just we're

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Speaker 1: all on the same page, no screens. It's about so

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Speaker 1: much more than that social media minimum age legislation coming

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Speaker 1: in at the end of the year December ten. I

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Speaker 1: think that's going to be a game change up. It's

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Speaker 1: not going to completely solve the problem, not even close,

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Speaker 1: but it will help us to make some positive steps

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Speaker 1: and I'm really positive about that. So, Shannon, we really

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Speaker 1: hope that that's been helpful. Thanks so much for sending

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Speaker 1: the question through. If you've got a tricky question that

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Speaker 1: you'd like to ask us, go to Happy Families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot you click on this super simple system where

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Speaker 1: you just push the button and start talking and hopefully

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Speaker 1: we'll feature you on the podcast. The Happy Families podcast

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Speaker 1: is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Mimhammonds provides

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Speaker 1: research and additional admin support. Oh and if you'd like

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Speaker 1: to get a really really high quality webinar about this

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Speaker 1: topic to help you to navigate the issues, we'll link

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Speaker 1: to one of my webinars in the show notes that

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Speaker 1: will give you all the guidance you need. Check out

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Speaker 1: Happy families dot com dot au for more resources. And

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Speaker 1: we're back tomorrow with a conversation with Professor Wayne Warburton

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Speaker 1: where we go a little bit deeper on this big

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Speaker 1: screen issue. Talk to you then,