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Speaker 1: The crux of this is if you have your entire

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Speaker 1: day pre booked with meetings, it leaves no room whatsoever

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Speaker 1: for real life to happen. So if anything at all happens,

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Speaker 1: if your child stubs their toe and you need to

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Speaker 1: go address that, even for eight minutes of your day,

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Speaker 1: it has a massive, oftentimes catastrophically negative impact on your

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Speaker 1: mental health, on the schedules of many other people. And

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Speaker 1: there's this cascading set of effects that could go well

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Speaker 1: beyond the day for a simple eight minute ordeal at home.

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Speaker 1: So I view that is a massive risk. And if

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Speaker 1: you extrapolate that over an entire company, if you have

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Speaker 1: everyone booked at one hundred percent, where is the room

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Speaker 1: for ingenuity? Teams are worried about serendipitous conversations, let me

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Speaker 1: tell you, being booked at one hundred percent is a

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Speaker 1: guarantee that your company is going to have no innovation

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Speaker 1: and no serendipitous conversations because there's no time for that.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: you used by the world's most successful people to get

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Speaker 2: so much out of their day.

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Speaker 3: I'm your host, doctor Amantha.

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Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

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Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date.

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Speaker 2: How Loo, before we get into today's show, just a

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Speaker 2: few little things from me. Firstly, I'm trying out a

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Speaker 2: new format where I'm keen to hear from you as

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Speaker 2: a listener and understand what are the questions that you

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Speaker 2: have on your mind or what are the challenges that

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Speaker 2: you're experiencing with work and productivity. Right now, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to be releasing a few mini episodes that will help

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Speaker 2: answer those questions. So if you've got something on your

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Speaker 2: mind that you'd like me to answer or dig up

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Speaker 2: some research around, just drop me an email at Amantha

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Speaker 2: at inventium dot com dot com a you and my

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Speaker 2: email is always in the show notes as well. Also,

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Speaker 2: if you're enjoying How I Work, I would love it

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Speaker 2: if you spread the news, Like, if you enjoy this episode,

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Speaker 2: maybe share it with someone else or a few people

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Speaker 2: that you think could benefit. That would be completely awesome.

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Speaker 2: And finally, if you have left a review for How

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Speaker 2: I Work, if you're one of the almost four hundred

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Speaker 2: people I think that have done that, thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: And if you haven't. If you're enjoying how.

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Speaker 2: I work, then I love your feedback, So pop a

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Speaker 2: review up on Apple Podcasts or whatever you're listening to

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Speaker 2: this from. All right, let's get on to today's show.

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Speaker 2: My guest today is Darren Murph and I was so

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Speaker 2: excited to speak to Darren after someone on my team,

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Speaker 2: Charlotte Rush, shared his profile with me. So, Darren is

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Speaker 2: Head of Remote at git lab. That's right, that's his

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Speaker 2: real title is head of Remote. And if you've never

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Speaker 2: heard of git lab, it's the world's largest all remote company,

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Speaker 2: with over thirteen hundred team members across over sixty seven

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Speaker 2: countries with no company owned offices. So Darren has spent

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Speaker 2: his career leading remote teams and charting remote transformations. And

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Speaker 2: he also is the author of Gitlab's Remote Playbook, which

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Speaker 2: I highly recommend you read. It is full of very

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Speaker 2: practical and awesome ideas.

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Speaker 3: I linked to that in the show notes.

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Speaker 2: Darren also holds a Guinness World Record as the planet's

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Speaker 2: most prolific professional blogger, having published ten million words.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 2: So, if you're working remotely at the moment, or perhaps

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Speaker 2: if you're leading an organization that is trying to get

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Speaker 2: better at remote working, or maybe seeing this as the

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Speaker 2: future for your organization. I think you will love this episode.

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Speaker 2: This is probably one of my favorite interviews this year

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Speaker 2: that I've done. Darren was just full of really practical

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Speaker 2: tips on how he has made remote working work. So

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Speaker 2: on that note, let's go to Darren to hear about

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Speaker 2: how he works.

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Speaker 3: Darren, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure

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Speaker 1: to be here.

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Speaker 2: I'm so excited to be talking to you. I was

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Speaker 2: just saying that before we started recording. You've just done

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Speaker 2: so many interesting things, and I feel like I've got

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Speaker 2: a billion questions and I'll probably get through about one percent.

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Speaker 2: But I want to start fortune of this mini article

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Speaker 2: about you. And in the article, you said what we're

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Speaker 2: seeing now isn't remote work, it's crisis induced work from home,

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Speaker 2: and I want to know what is the difference.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's accurate. So remote work, when it is intentionally structured,

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Speaker 1: is life's greatest cheat code. It enables you to to

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Speaker 1: accomplish your bucket list decades before anyone else would if

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Speaker 1: they were beholden to a rigid commute and they were

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Speaker 1: simply trying to wrap what is their life around the

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Speaker 1: rigidity of a daily commute and a trek into an office.

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Speaker 1: But what we're experiencing right now is not that we

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Speaker 1: have all been thrust into our homes by a tragedy

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Speaker 1: COVID nineteen. And on top of us being in our homes,

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Speaker 1: none of us are adequately prepared even going out for

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Speaker 1: dinner or drinks or going to get groceries. All of

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Speaker 1: this is more complex right now. We're all a lot

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Speaker 1: more isolated. There are a lot of things happening outside

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Speaker 1: of our control that many people are conflating with remote

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Speaker 1: work because it is their first experience with remote work.

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Speaker 1: But I assure you it is not the same. And indeed,

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Speaker 1: I've been encouraged by some people saying, even though I'm

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Speaker 1: working remotely during a pandemic, there are some things that

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Speaker 1: if people can find the silver lining in remote work

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Speaker 1: and work from home, now, just imagine how amazing it

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Speaker 1: is once travel restrictions are lifted.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be quite amazing. I must say, I

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Speaker 2: feel like I was thinking about this the other day.

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Speaker 2: I used to travel for work probably once a week.

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Speaker 2: I'd be at at airport about once a week, and

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Speaker 2: I was thinking, gosh, I barely remember what an airport

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Speaker 2: or a plane feels like. That's just going to be

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Speaker 2: such a novelty whenever restrictions are lifted. And in Melbourne

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Speaker 2: at the moment when we're recording this, we're in stage

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Speaker 2: four lockdown, so things are pretty full on here now.

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Speaker 2: When it comes to remote work, you literally wrote the

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Speaker 2: book on it, so so get Lab, where you're head

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Speaker 2: of remote, has a Remote Working Handbook which is such

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Speaker 2: a good read. I'm going to link to it in

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Speaker 2: the show notes, and I want to pull out some

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Speaker 2: of the things that I quite liked that were sort

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Speaker 2: of like some little surprising gems, and then I want

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Speaker 2: to hear from you what are some of your favorite

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Speaker 2: pieces of advice or tips from the handbook, because there's

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Speaker 2: just so much in there. So some of my favorites

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Speaker 2: were to adopt a self service and self learning mentality,

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Speaker 2: which I really like because I feel like often and

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Speaker 2: I've experienced this myself with Inventium, which I've been my

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Speaker 2: innovation consults here that I've been running for the last

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Speaker 2: fourteen years where you can sort of sometimes make poor

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Speaker 2: recruitment choices and people come in with that sort of

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Speaker 2: helpless mentality and ask everyone else for advice as opposed

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Speaker 2: to sort of taking things on board themselves, which is

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Speaker 2: critical in a remote environment. I love make documentation everyone's responsibility,

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Speaker 2: and that again, I think have a three thousand plus

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Speaker 2: page handbook where I imagine everyone has documented rules and

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Speaker 2: practices and all sorts of things like that. There should

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Speaker 2: be no unwritten rules in remote culture. I might even

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Speaker 2: get you to just talk a bit about what you

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Speaker 2: mean there. And also one of my favorites encouraging the

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Speaker 2: use of emoji so that you can communicate in motion,

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Speaker 2: which I thought was really cool. So I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you want to comment on any of those, they

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Speaker 2: were some of my favorites, but I also want to

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Speaker 2: know what some of your favorite things are in that handbook.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love all of those. It is so heartening

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Speaker 1: to hear someone articulate those back. It's incredible. Documentation is

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Speaker 1: the superpower of remote teams, and it's non negotiable. Just

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Speaker 1: to give you an example, during the course of this interview,

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Speaker 1: there are dozens, maybe even hundreds of people inside get

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Speaker 1: lab and outside of get lab that are able to

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Speaker 1: move their projects forward based on things that I have

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Speaker 1: written down. So although I am conversing with you, my

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Speaker 1: knowledge is at work with people all around the world

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Speaker 1: able to tap into that and use it to move

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Speaker 1: their projects forward. This is the power of documentation. Instead

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Speaker 1: of someone having to tap me on the virtual shoulder

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Speaker 1: and ask me a question, I'm able to proactively answer

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Speaker 1: everything that they're asking with a link and then the

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Speaker 1: get lab way of working. If someone were to genuinely

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Speaker 1: ask me something that is net new and is not documented,

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Speaker 1: I would of course get them that answer, but then

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Speaker 1: I would immediately document it so that anyone else who

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Speaker 1: has this question going forward would simply be able to

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Speaker 1: find it online. This is a much more inclusive way

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Speaker 1: to communicate and to scale knowledge. But it definitely takes

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Speaker 1: a special type of person who thinks this way, because

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Speaker 1: the human default that is to default to synchronicity and

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Speaker 1: to default to async feels a little bit awkward at first.

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Speaker 1: Oftentimes it feels a bit cold until you realize that

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Speaker 1: by doing so, you're making everyone else's day much more efficient,

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Speaker 1: and you're giving them more time back to spend with

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Speaker 1: their family, with neighbors, with community members, all of which

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Speaker 1: is a much more useful way to spend time when

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Speaker 1: you're talking about the net impact to society versus asking

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Speaker 1: someone a question for the five hundredth time, I was

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Speaker 1: going to highlight a few of the favorites of mine,

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Speaker 1: you listed a few favorites of yours. The get Lab

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Speaker 1: Values page is an absolute treasure trove. If you google

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Speaker 1: get Lab values, you'll find six core values. Probably words

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Speaker 1: you've heard before, things like iteration, collaboration, results, but all

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Speaker 1: of those terms in a vacuum can mean something different

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Speaker 1: to each individual. Underneath each value are thousands of words

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Speaker 1: called sub values, which substantiate and explain how each of

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Speaker 1: these values are lived with no physical building that we

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Speaker 1: commute into each day. There are a couple of these that,

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Speaker 1: when strung together, are incredibly powerful. So a few of

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Speaker 1: these in a row that I love are Kindness, assume

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Speaker 1: positive intent, no ego. No ego is a huge one.

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Speaker 1: Don't let each other fail. Blameless problem solving. This is

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Speaker 1: amazing because it enables you to solve every problem knowing

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Speaker 1: that there's not going to be blamed. There is no agenda.

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Speaker 1: We are simply trying to solve the problem. And although

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Speaker 1: this sounds extremely simple, this is very much against the

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Speaker 1: grain in most corporate structure. And the last one that

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Speaker 1: I'll share right now is short toes. This is the

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Speaker 1: one that caught my attention when I first came to

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Speaker 1: get LAB. I saw short toes and thought, what in

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Speaker 1: the world could that mean? Well, I get LAB. It's

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Speaker 1: not possible for you to step on anyone's toes or

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Speaker 1: contribute to someone else's domain because everyone has short toes,

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Speaker 1: and that creates a welcome atmosphere for all of us

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Speaker 1: to put forth our best knowledge, regardless of what department

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Speaker 1: of the company we're in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I read that short toes one myself, and I'm like,

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Speaker 2: hang on, what's that? Because the rest are kind of

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Speaker 2: like you assume that you know what they mean. I

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Speaker 2: do like that short toes one too. Now, you mentioned

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Speaker 2: the idea of synchronous versus asynchronous communication, and I know

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Speaker 2: you've spoken about what companies that truly want to do

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Speaker 2: remote work well need to do is replace the default

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Speaker 2: of synchronous communication. Can you explain what you mean by that, like,

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Speaker 2: how companies do default to synchronous communication and what are

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Speaker 2: the steps that a company needs to take to not

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Speaker 2: do that, because it's so well entrenched into most company cultures.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to better understand this, you really have to go

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Speaker 1: all the way back to grade school if you think

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Speaker 1: about it early on. In our classical education, children are

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Speaker 1: contained within four walls in a roof. We are conditioned

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Speaker 1: from birth to operate in a synchronous manner in what

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Speaker 1: is essentially an office for children. We are taught no

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Speaker 1: other way, and so it's quite unusual to move projects

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Speaker 1: forward or to build relationships when you aren't in the

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Speaker 1: same place at the same time. You may hear things like, oh,

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Speaker 1: but I prefer synchronicity. I prefer to be together, And

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Speaker 1: most of that is because people don't have a solid

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Speaker 1: baseline of how this could work well in any other fashion.

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Speaker 1: So synchronicity is the default for a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: They feel like reaching out and having conversations with people

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Speaker 1: or tapping someone on the shoulder. It feels very productive.

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Speaker 1: It makes you feel like you're contributing meaningfully to the organization.

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Speaker 1: But in truth, these types of meetings and ad hoc

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Speaker 1: interruptions are massively disruptive to the bottom line. They're massively

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Speaker 1: disruptive to people's mental health. It's very difficult to get

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Speaker 1: into a state of flow and make meaningful progress on

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Speaker 1: any line of work if you're continuously being interrupted. There

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Speaker 1: is a reason that Google is a machine and not

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Speaker 1: a person, because if someone just essentially taps you as

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Speaker 1: Google all day, you're going to get tired of answering

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Speaker 1: those queries at some point. So it's a fundamentally more

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Speaker 1: inclusive way to communicate your knowledge and to scale your

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Speaker 1: knowledge by writing it down once so that it can

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Speaker 1: be interpreted and used a limitless amount of times. But

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Speaker 1: it takes a culture that is understanding of that. And indeed,

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Speaker 1: if you look at the get Lab onboarding process, we

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Speaker 1: lay out guides that explain exactly how to adopt a

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Speaker 1: self service mentality. We even have a handbook guide on

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Speaker 1: how to use the handbook. We have another guide on

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Speaker 1: how to search the handbook. We are very prescriptive and

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Speaker 1: articulate about the information infrastructure that we have set up.

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Speaker 1: We essentially see the handbook as yet another product or tool,

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Speaker 1: and so if you were coming into any company, you

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Speaker 1: would expect an onboarding to get used to a key

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Speaker 1: tool to do work. And we see the handbook as

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Speaker 1: a key tool to do work.

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Speaker 3: That's really cool.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk a little bit more about meetings,

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Speaker 2: and obviously at git lab you default to documentation instead

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Speaker 2: of meetings, which I think is such a key like

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Speaker 2: such a key point for listeners who are thinking how

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Speaker 2: do we truly go remote to really think about because

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Speaker 2: we are so conditioned to defaulting to meetings, it's the

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Speaker 2: easiest thing to do. And I want to know when

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Speaker 2: you do have meetings at get lab, what are the

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Speaker 2: different rules that that you have in place, because I

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Speaker 2: know there are some rules and guidelines for having meetings

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Speaker 2: that get lab. Imagine that it is quite a significant

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Speaker 2: thing if you're invited.

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Speaker 3: To a meeting it get lab. Given it's not the default,

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Speaker 3: is that fair to say?

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Speaker 1: It is fair to say, and there is some context

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Speaker 1: you need to understand here. It is easier for us

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Speaker 1: to get away with this at get lab because people

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Speaker 1: self select into get lab. You opt into get lab

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Speaker 1: even in the interview process. You know what you're getting into.

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Speaker 1: Everyone can read our handbook before they even apply here,

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Speaker 1: and so people come here because they want to work

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Speaker 1: this way. It is their default. And so we have

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Speaker 1: a like minded group of people that want to have

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Speaker 1: a bias towards a synchronous. In fact, bias towards a

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Speaker 1: synchronous is one of the sub values of our diversity,

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Speaker 1: inclusion and belonging value because it allows for a more

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Speaker 1: inclusive course of voices to contribute to a project. So

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Speaker 1: there's a five step process that, of course we have

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Speaker 1: documented on questioning every meeting. The first is, what is

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Speaker 1: the outcome I am trying to achieved that has led

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Speaker 1: me to a desire to schedule a meeting. You need

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Speaker 1: to write that down and articulate that. Number two is

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Speaker 1: can the desired outcome be broken down into smaller tasks?

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Speaker 1: If you can break things down to more incremental pieces,

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Speaker 1: it's more likely that you can accomplish each individual element

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Speaker 1: of that through an asynchronous means. Number three is can

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Speaker 1: the desired outcome be achieved or work towards by dog

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Speaker 1: fooding and using a get lab issue or merge request. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is where it's important for me to point out

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Speaker 1: that all of get lab uses get lab the product

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Speaker 1: to collaborate. It is the heartbeat of our asynchronous workflow.

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Speaker 1: So if you don't have a tool like this, you

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Speaker 1: will need one. It is extremely hard to lean fully

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Speaker 1: into a synchronous using a hodgepodge of phone calls, carrier pigeons,

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Speaker 1: and email. You're going to need a tool at the

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Speaker 1: heart of it. The fourth one is am I trying

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Speaker 1: to gather consensus. If you are consensus gathering can be

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Speaker 1: done asynchronously. Anyone can open up a get lab issue

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Speaker 1: or a mural board or a Figma board and gather

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Speaker 1: input and consensus, and then you can save the meeting

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Speaker 1: until the decision making needs to occur. And even that

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Speaker 1: decision making, which is step five, we ask people to

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Speaker 1: consider can the decision be made asynchronous LEA And if

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Speaker 1: it cannot, then we default to a synchronous meeting, but

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Speaker 1: we will reserve that for the very end. And then

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Speaker 1: if we have to have a meeting, we make it

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Speaker 1: quite difficult for this to happen. Every meeting has to

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Speaker 1: have an agenda attached to the calendar invite, so that

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Speaker 1: temporal documentation takes place live during the meeting, and then

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Speaker 1: the meeting organizer is responsible for transcribing and contextualizing any

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Speaker 1: takeaways from that meeting into the get lab handbook so

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Speaker 1: that the most amount of people can benefit from the

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Speaker 1: knowledge that was gained in that meeting. It takes a

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Speaker 1: cultural mindset company wide for this to actually work and

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Speaker 1: be meaningful. But our people fundamentally believe that time is

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Speaker 1: very precious and we would rather reserve that for informal communication,

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Speaker 1: for coffee chats, for team wide trivia sessions and scavenger hunts,

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Speaker 1: things that help us build bonds as a team, than

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Speaker 1: just another work meeting. Now, of course we still have

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Speaker 1: work meetings, but if we're rigorous enough to cut our

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Speaker 1: meetings down by even fifty percent, most people listening to

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Speaker 1: this would think, Wow, if I could have fifty percent

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Speaker 1: fewer meetings, I think my zoom fatigue would go away.

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Speaker 1: So we're not trying to eliminate meetings. We're just trying

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Speaker 1: to have a thorough process so that you question it.

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Speaker 1: Because if you're going to have to write down the

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Speaker 1: takeaway anyway, we would love for you to start by

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Speaker 1: writing it down instead of doing double work with a

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Speaker 1: meeting first and then writing it down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, has so many good tips in there. I must

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Speaker 2: say something that we've tried at Inventium, which I got

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Speaker 2: from a guest I had on the show maybe a

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Speaker 2: year ago. Brian Scoutemore from one eight hundred got chunk

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Speaker 2: over in the state, and he says that he won't

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Speaker 2: accept a meeting unless it's got a PAYO, which stands

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Speaker 2: for purpose, Agenda and outcomes. So a little bit of

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Speaker 2: crossover with what you've described there and something we're kind

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Speaker 2: of experimenting with at the moment at INVENTINGM. I mean, granted,

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Speaker 2: we don't have that many meetings, but if someone sets

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Speaker 2: a meeting, they need to have a payout otherwise they

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Speaker 2: can't put the meeting in the diary, which just acts

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Speaker 2: as a nice little barrier for people to think, do

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Speaker 2: I actually need this meeting or could this be done

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Speaker 2: some other way. I want to pick up on a

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Speaker 2: couple of things that you said there when you were

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Speaker 2: describing that process, and you said you'll deliberately recruit people

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Speaker 2: who have a bias towards a synchronicity or a synchronous communication.

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Speaker 2: How do you assess that in a recruitment process.

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Speaker 1: We hire for managers of one, and if you google that,

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Speaker 1: as you would expect, you'll find a leadership page that

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Speaker 1: lays out what a manager of one looks like. We

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Speaker 1: hire for that, and we tell people straight up that

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Speaker 1: you're going to be writing a lot, and it's pretty

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Speaker 1: obvious early on whether someone is going to thrive in

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Speaker 1: an environment like that. So we're just open about it

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Speaker 1: and we say, do you love communicating this way? Is

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Speaker 1: this how you prefer to work? Because this is how

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Speaker 1: we work. All of our interviews are done over zoom.

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Speaker 1: There is no in person element, so again, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to accidentally end up here. You're going to be

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Speaker 1: pretty sure of what you're walking into. But mostly we

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Speaker 1: look for great storytellers, people that love to think through

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Speaker 1: problems and communicate with high detail and low precision. We

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Speaker 1: can do writing exercises, but a lot of this just

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Speaker 1: comes through in storytelling. We love to ask questions of

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Speaker 1: tell me a time when you worked remotely when you

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Speaker 1: move to project forward, when you were in one place

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Speaker 1: and your cohorts were in another. And for some people

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Speaker 1: they answer, I've never been able to work remotely, That's

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Speaker 1: why i want a job here. But you can actually

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Speaker 1: dig a little deeper and say, well, have you ever

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Speaker 1: worked on let's say, a present while you were on

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Speaker 1: an airplane, or while you were in a hotel conference

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Speaker 1: center and the rest of your team was at work,

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Speaker 1: or the rest of your colleagues at university were in

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Speaker 1: the library, and then they'll usually say, oh, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: actually do have an example of that. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's remote working. You might not have considered it remote working,

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Speaker 1: but indeed it was remote working. And we also like

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Speaker 1: to pull up our values page and in there you'll

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Speaker 1: notice a sub value that says culture fit is a

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Speaker 1: bad excuse. What that means is we try to hire

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Speaker 1: for values fit, which is to say, we want to

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Speaker 1: make sure the get lab values resonate with anyone joining

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Speaker 1: the company, and then we invite them to bring one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent of their full culture to make our culture better.

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Speaker 1: So we don't want to hire for culture fit. We

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Speaker 1: want to hire for values fit and then increase the

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Speaker 1: diversity of the culture that comes along with that.

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Speaker 3: I like that distinction.

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Speaker 2: Now, something else that you mentioned is that if you're

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Speaker 2: a completely remote company, it's really important that you've got

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Speaker 2: the right kind of software or technology at the heart

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Speaker 2: of that. Can you talk about what sort of features

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Speaker 2: does this key piece of software need to make it work.

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Speaker 1: To do this right? It's roughly fifty percent tools and

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Speaker 1: technology and fifty percent culture, so you have to have both.

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Speaker 1: You can have all of the right tools, but the

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Speaker 1: leadership doesn't really embrace it and it will probably falter.

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Speaker 1: You could have the best intentions of the world, but

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Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, if you're trying to do it

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Speaker 1: all over email and phone, you'll probably struggle. I generally

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Speaker 1: recommend to minimize your tool stack if you're transitioning into remote.

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Speaker 1: Get Lab really only uses four key products across the company. Now,

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Speaker 1: some of our departments use certain things like MARKETO and

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Speaker 1: Marketing Operations and Salesforce and things like that, but for

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Speaker 1: all of our team to collaborate as a team, we

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Speaker 1: use g Suite, we use Zoom, we use get lab

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Speaker 1: the product, and Slack for informal communication. So that goes

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Speaker 1: to show we really don't use Slack for work. We

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Speaker 1: expire our Slack messages after ninety days so that it's

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Speaker 1: only useful for informal communication. We want the work to

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Speaker 1: happen and get lab. So the key piece there is

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Speaker 1: make sure you have a project management and collaboration tool

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Speaker 1: that strongly supports asynchronous inputs and workflows. Get Lab is

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Speaker 1: what we use. There are a host of others, but

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Speaker 1: it's on your IT and operations team to thoroughly vet this,

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Speaker 1: and I would say, do a tools audit and make

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Speaker 1: sure that you have something there. And then of course

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Speaker 1: you have to document how you want people to work

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Speaker 1: in it. It has to be a user guide on

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Speaker 1: how to get work done so that everyone is leaning

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Speaker 1: into that same product instead of fracturing work and splintering

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Speaker 1: it here, there, and everywhere. It really is key to

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Speaker 1: get universal buy in, and it takes time. For transitioning companies,

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Speaker 1: it takes time. It is a very jarring thing if

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Speaker 1: you are used to working one way and now you're

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Speaker 1: working another. But for those companies that want to put

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Speaker 1: in the effort now, in six to twelve months, you'll

435
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 1: be so thankful that you did, and you'll only wonder

436
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: why you didn't start this earlier. The truth is everything

437
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 1: I'm saying is not remote exclusive. It is required in

438
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 1: a remote setting. But even if you go back to

439
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: being a collocated company or a hybrid remote company, all

440
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: of this will make your company more cohesive and more discipline.

441
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now you mentioned culture, and I imagine this

442
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 2: is probably one of the questions you get asked the most.

443
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: How do you create a corporate culture without a physical office?

444
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: You know, especially for people that have never met their

445
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 2: coworkers face to face, which I imagine for a lot

446
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 2: of listeners would kind of blow their minds, even though

447
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 2: for you, this is your world. So what are some

448
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 2: of the key steps to building that corporate culture.

449
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's two things I want to mention here. One

450
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 1: is paradoxical and one not so much, So I'll start

451
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 1: with the latter. In person matters A lot a lot

452
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: of people assume that because get lab is all remote,

453
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: we never ever get together in person, and that's not

454
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: actually true. We get the entire company together for a

455
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: week long treat, we go on excursions together, we build

456
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 1: bonds together. It's such an important week people will mark

457
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: it off as if nothing can touch this. And when

458
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 1: we hire new people, we proactively give them the next

459
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: available contribute and they they love it. They look forward

460
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: to it. I know when I joined the company, it

461
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: was one of the first things that I wanted to know, Hey,

462
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: when is the next get lab contribute? I can't wait

463
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: to meet everyone. So forecasting in a post COVID world

464
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: where travel restrictions are lists lifted and we can do this,

465
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: I would say for leaders, make in person a core

466
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 1: part of how you build strategy. But with a hybrid

467
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: or all remote company, you're going to need to be

468
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: more intentional about when and where travel happens and how

469
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: you facilitate those very important in person interactions. So bottom

470
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: line there is, don't try to do this without ever

471
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: seeing anyone. We are relational, communal beings, and in person

472
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: matters a lot. So here's the paradoxical one. The further

473
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: away you are as a team, the more you need

474
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: to let go as a manager and allow people to

475
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: simply be where they are. So instead of having lots

476
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: of virtual happy hours and things of that nature, which

477
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: by the way we do it get lab we prefer

478
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 1: to structure and atmosphere where people can do their work

479
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: very efficiently and then leave work as soon as possible.

480
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: We want people to be able to go back home,

481
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: engage with their family, engage with their neighbors, engage with

482
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: their community. That is what matters to them. They have

483
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: specifically chosen to work here so that they can be

484
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: in a place that matters to them, so we want

485
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: to empower them to be in that place as much

486
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: as humanly possible. So how that pours back into culture

487
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,959
Speaker 1: is that I see a NonStop photo role on our

488
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: company slack of pictures and stories and videos of people

489
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: that are making meaningful impacts in societies all over the world.

490
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: We have people in over sixty five countries. It is

491
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: so fascinating to see how each person chooses to engage

492
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: and interact in each of their communities. And when I

493
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: see that that builds culture, that tells me this is

494
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 1: exactly who this person is. The more curious and the

495
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 1: more interesting the person is on your team for us,

496
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: the more it builds culture. So it is paradoxical that

497
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 1: we would encourage you to spend more time outside of

498
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: work to actually pour back into company culture. But when

499
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: you hire a team that is specifically looking for that,

500
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: that is indeed what happens.

501
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: I find that quite interesting because I can imagine that

502
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 2: what you've described would make you feel very connected to

503
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: people that you're not seeing face to face on a

504
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: daily basis, and you know, maybe just seeing once a

505
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: year or once a quarter face to face or something

506
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 2: like that. And I'm kind of thinking about how you

507
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: say you recruit for values as opposed to do they

508
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 2: fit with the culture, and I imagine what happens. I

509
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 2: mean when I think about culture as a psychologist, I

510
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 2: think about, well, it's a set of norms and behaviors

511
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 2: and so forth. It's almost through And can I correct

512
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 2: me if I'm getting this wrong. But because you're recruiting

513
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 2: people that have these really core values that get lab yspouses,

514
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: then that's where the behavioral norms are coming in, because

515
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 2: you know they do prefer this way of working. They

516
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: value things like kindness and humility and things like that,

517
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 2: and they then become the culture. Almost Does that make sense.

518
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's accurate. It's culture. Really. In a remote setting,

519
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: culture is essentially equal to the values. Because in most

520
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 1: collocated spaces, culture is roughly defined by the paint on

521
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: the wall, the color of the lights, and the brand

522
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: of the coffee. That flavor of culture has always been

523
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: at risk of coming undone, and now in a remote

524
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: setting it's glaringly obvious that that was never a great

525
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: way to define culture. It's really about how people treat

526
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: each other and how we see the world. And when

527
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: you write that down, you can interview for it, and

528
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: you can ask people does this work for you? And

529
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: so culturally it ends up working out that we have

530
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: people that generally we love and get along with because

531
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: they share our values and values and culture are very

532
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: tightly connected, especially in a remote company.

533
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: And how would that work then if we've got listeners

534
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 2: that largely office space but at the moment are working

535
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: from home, and they want to shift towards more of

536
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: at least a hybrid remote way of working, but they're

537
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: worried about, well, how do they maintain the corporate culture

538
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: when they don't have the benefit of actually going back

539
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: to square one with everybody and recruiting for people that

540
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: genuinely have the same values.

541
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: What do you recommend that people do in that scenario.

542
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: It's a lot to unpack. I would start by acknowledging

543
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: that we're in a pandemic. So culture, even in a

544
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: well fine tuned remote setting, looks different in a pandemic.

545
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: It is much less about company wide raw raw right

546
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: now and more about let's make sure each other are okay,

547
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: that we have the time, the space, whatever it is

548
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: we need to just be okay. The bar is different

549
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: right now. Being okay and bonded as a team is

550
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: a fine bar. You don't necessarily need thousands of raw

551
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: raw champions for your culture right now, so we'll start there.

552
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: But forecasting in a different space when we can get

553
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: back to that. It really comes down to leadership. Thriving

554
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: as a remote worker. You can only get so far

555
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,479
Speaker 1: as an individual, and then there's a certain point where

556
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: the gate has to be lifted up and the rest

557
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: of that liberation in that atmosphere, it has to be

558
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: enabled by leadership. It has to be enabled and modeled

559
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: by leadership. And frankly, now is as good a time

560
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: as any for leaders to question their values. To open

561
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: their website, look at what the value say and ask

562
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: themselves are these still relevant for the post COVID universe.

563
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: This is a massive sea change. This is a complete

564
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,239
Speaker 1: re architecting of how many digital firms are going to

565
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: look and do work Going forward, things might be different.

566
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: I encourage leaders to write down what's it like to

567
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: work here at my company? And if you're not thrilled

568
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: with the answer, you might need to change some things

569
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: coming out of this now. For individuals who might not

570
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: be in that leadership perspective, this is now a very

571
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: important time to get introspective and make sure that the

572
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: go forward plan at your company aligns with what you

573
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: want culturally. I do expect globally some short term attrition

574
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: as these shifting sinds happen. People are going to take

575
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: a look at what the go forward plan is for

576
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,239
Speaker 1: their company, and some people are going to say, you know,

577
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: I opted into a more rigid culture, a more co

578
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: located culture. This isn't going to work for me. I

579
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: may need to find a different place that is more

580
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: aligned with the current season of life that I'm in.

581
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: Some people are going to see this as an incredibly

582
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: progressive thing. They're going to celebrate it, and they're going

583
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: to be grateful that we're finally ushering ourselves into the

584
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: future of work. It's a strange and unfortunate way to

585
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: get here, but we're here nevertheless. So I wouldn't say

586
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: you have to satisfy one hundred percent of your workforce.

587
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: You just need to be extremely articulate on what the

588
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,239
Speaker 1: go forward plan is and then help people that are

589
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: going to be on board with it, and then for

590
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: those that don't want to be there, maybe even look

591
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: to how the airlines have done voluntary exit packages. This

592
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: is an amazing time. These are not usual times. There

593
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: are there's not a playbook for how this is going

594
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: to work out. So some extreme circumstances could see their

595
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: way to fruition.

596
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 2: Something I hear from a lot of clients that I'm

597
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: speaking to is, well, you know what about those serendipitous

598
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: conversations like they talk about the example of Steve joh

599
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: you know, having the central kitchen and bathrooms, it peaks

600
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: hard to create those serendipitous moments where ideas spring from

601
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 2: from like.

602
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 3: What do you say to that? And how like what's

603
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 3: the remote work equivalent of doing that?

604
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: So the funny thing about this story is that's not

605
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,719
Speaker 1: serendipitous at all. It was literally planned. This is the

606
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: definition of planned innovation. The lobbies, the hallways, the restrooms,

607
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: the physical architecture of this building was specifically planned so

608
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: that people would talk to each other. That's the exact

609
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: opposite of serendipity. So in a remote setting you also

610
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: have to plan for engagements and interactions. Now this becomes

611
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: a lot more obvious if you have a tool like

612
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: get lab at the heart of your workflows, because anyone

613
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: can put down just a one sentence idea and then

614
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: share it company wide with a single link, and the

615
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: amount of feedback and incubation that can happen on that

616
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: is far more than you would get from just one

617
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: or two people randomly in a hallway. It is a

618
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: far more inclusive and expansive way to incubate this type

619
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: of innovation. You simply need a tool at the heart

620
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: of it to make it possible. So it sounds a

621
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: bit paradoxical, but you really do have to work to

622
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: plan innovation. And if you take a hard look at

623
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: any office that's ever been invented, office lobbies, office cafeterias,

624
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: these were intentionally designed structures for informal communication. So in

625
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: a remote setting you have to recreate that. We use Slack.

626
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: We have topical channels where people can talk about specific things,

627
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: whether it's mental health or hiking or a certain product

628
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Or you can put meetings on

629
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: optional meetings with agendas that people can contribute to asynchronously.

630
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: So you have to plan for it. Remote makes you

631
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: be intentional about a lot of things that you're able

632
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: to take for granted in a physical space. But I

633
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 1: assure you, somewhere before you showed up at the office,

634
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 1: there was some planning done to help encourage that type

635
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: of thing.

636
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 3: I love that answer.

637
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 2: I think that's so good and it just makes it

638
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: like for me, I imagine, you know all these get lab

639
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: employees commenting on things that if it were just like

640
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 2: a conversation in some kitchen somewhere, they wouldn't have had

641
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: the opportunity. So it's almost like it just sounds like

642
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 2: a more sensible and better way of doing these conversations.

643
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: It is. It's well, it's the opportunity and abundance versus

644
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: scarcity mindset. And so for years people have thought two

645
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: or three people that happened to run into each other

646
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: in a hallway and have this amazing idea, Well, that's

647
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: that's the new baseline, that is the gold standard. But

648
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: when you think about it, well, number one, it was

649
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: only three people, So what if that idea could be

650
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: made even better if three thousand people had access to

651
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 1: contribute to it without negatively impacting the schedule of any

652
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: one person. And then the other thing is you're not

653
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: requiring people to be available and online at the exact

654
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: same time. So running into each other in a hallway,

655
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: I get it. I've been there. It is a pretty

656
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: cool moment when it happens, but it's an even cooler

657
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: moment when it happens in a remote setting and you

658
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: can get a ton more feedback. You just have to

659
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: create the atmosphere where it works hundred percent.

660
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: And you mentioned that you use slack but just for

661
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,800
Speaker 2: social purposes, not for work purposes.

662
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 3: Can you talk a bit.

663
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 2: About how you have gone about creating you know, the

664
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: equivalent of water coolored conversation and just those social connections

665
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: when a lot of people would never have met in person.

666
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, the water cooler is yet another thing that is

667
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: intentionally designed in a physical space, and so if you

668
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: want that in a remote space, you have to intentionally

669
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: design it. There are a certain set of forcing functions

670
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: that we enlist to ensure that we remain remote first.

671
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: And the reason the word forcing is there for a

672
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: reason because these are not natural. Necessarily, they are not

673
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: the default. Sometimes they feel a bit awkward at first,

674
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: but nevertheless they ensure that we retain and remain in

675
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: our remote first workflows. So inspiring our Slack messages after

676
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: ninety days is one of those. If you know that

677
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 1: your work is going to vanish after ninety days, then

678
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: it's a pretty great forcing function to start the work

679
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: where it's going to end up, which is in a

680
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: get lab issue or a get lab merge request. So

681
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: if we don't do long lengthy work in Slack. The

682
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: only thing it's useful for is quick pings to usually

683
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: direct people's attention to a get lab issue or informal communication.

684
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,959
Speaker 1: And this solves another major issue for remote teams, which

685
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: is where do we just converse as humans, not as colleagues,

686
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: but as humans. Well, if you aren't using Slack or

687
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: teams for work, now you can just converse as humans.

688
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: The great example I have of that is we have

689
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: a parenting channel, and now that so many parents have

690
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 1: children at home, they're dealing with remote learning for the

691
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: first time ever. A lot of our parents are doubling

692
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: as teachers' aids at the moment. This is an amazing

693
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: medium where all of our parents can come together and

694
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: share tips all around the world of how they're doing it,

695
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: and they can trade shifts and work across teams. It's amazing.

696
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: I don't think this would exist if Slack was primarily

697
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: for work. People might not feel as comfortable being themselves

698
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: and bringing things up like hey, I'm a parent and

699
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: I need some help. But because we don't really do

700
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: work in there, it's a perfect place for that. This

701
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: is yet another example of not really reinventing the wheel.

702
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: A lot of companies use Slack and Microsoft Teams, but

703
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: if you just use it slightly differently, now it becomes

704
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: this amazing enabler for remote work.

705
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 3: I think that's that's really interesting, and I think.

706
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,919
Speaker 2: A lot of listeners will have Slack that they use

707
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 2: for work and for social But I really do like

708
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: the idea of just kind of segmenting that out and

709
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 2: just kind of keeping it clean what it's used for.

710
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: Something you have said, I think I read it in

711
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: I can't remember whether it was your read me page,

712
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: which I do want to talk about. You've said that

713
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 2: being booked at one hundred percent is a risk. Can

714
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: you explain what you mean by this and how you

715
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: avoid you avoid that?

716
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 1: Yes, so that was on my read me page. So

717
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: being booked at one hundred percent is a risk, and

718
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: I've always thought this. It has always driven me mad

719
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: to have a booked, a fully booked calendar, because most

720
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: the work that I'm most proud of has always come

721
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: during long, uninterrupted blocks of time. And there are a

722
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: bunch of Ted Talks and Simon Sinak and why work

723
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: doesn't happen at work. There's a bunch of supporting evidence

724
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 1: of why this says, But about a year ago someone

725
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: asked me if I had heard of Kingman's formula, to

726
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: which I replied, no, I have not. So I googled

727
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: it and it's the mathematics behind this notion, and I

728
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: was so excited to finally find someone that is intelligent

729
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: about math, that put actual data in numbers behind something

730
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: that I've long since known was true in my heart

731
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: of hearts. The crux of this is if you have

732
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: your entire day pre booked with meetings, it leaves no

733
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: room whatsoever for real life to happen. So if anything

734
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 1: at all happens, if your child stubs their toe and

735
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: you need to go address that, even for eight minutes

736
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: of your day, it has a massive, oftentimes catastrophically negative

737
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: impact on your mental health, on the schedules of many

738
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: other people, And there's this cascading set of effects that

739
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: could go well beyond the day for a simple eight

740
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 1: minute it or deal at home. So I view that

741
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: is a massive risk. And if you extrapolate that over

742
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: an entire company, if you have everyone booked at one

743
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: hundred percent, where is the room for ingenuity. Teams are

744
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: worried about serendipitous conversations. Let me tell you, being booked

745
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: at one hundred percent is a guarantee that your company

746
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: is going to have no innovation and no serendipitous conversations

747
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: because there's no time for that. So we actively block

748
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: our schedules. At get lab, everyone has a public calendar

749
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: by default. We encourage people to go in there right

750
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: as they're onboarding and block out things like hours that

751
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: you want to take your kid to and from school,

752
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: or hours that you prefer to exercise, or hours that

753
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: you prefer to be away for lunch. Anything you can

754
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 1: think of, feel free to block it. And when people

755
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: book meetings and you see something like, hey, I'm exercising,

756
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 1: you really do think twice about booking over that, because

757
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: the golden rule. Would you really want someone to book

758
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: a meeting time with you if you were doing something

759
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: that was important to your personal life.

760
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 3: I love that.

761
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: It's funny, Like I myself when I'm looking at my calendar,

762
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: I have my work calendar and my personal calendar in GCL,

763
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 2: and I sort of never know whether to kind of

764
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: merge the two so that people kind of know what

765
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 2: I'm up to and maybe not to.

766
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 3: Book over Yeah. I think that's really interesting, and.

767
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a common issue. And I will say one

768
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 1: thing that can help with that is a tool called clockwise.

769
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: They allow you essentially it merges the two calendars, but

770
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: whenever you have a personal stop, it will just say

771
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: busy on your work calendar. So not everyone is comfortable

772
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: being completely transparent about what is blocking, but at least

773
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,760
Speaker 1: it automates the blocking process. So, look, your personal life

774
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: is a big deal. I've there's a book called Time

775
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 1: Off by John Fitch, and in it he says that

776
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: your rest ethic is just as important as your work ethic.

777
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: And this is for the core of it. For me,

778
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 1: it is just as orant for you to put meaningful

779
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: attention on when you're going to rest as it is

780
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 1: when you're going to work. It's just think of it

781
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: as inhaling and exhaling. If you only do one or

782
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: the other and never do the opposite, at some point

783
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 1: this becomes a problem, and working and resting follows the

784
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: same trajegory.

785
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 3: I like that a lot.

786
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 2: Now, I do want to talk about your read me page,

787
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: which I'm going to link to in the show notes.

788
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: What it reminds me of is I've heard Adam Grant

789
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 2: talk about the idea of creating a one page operating

790
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 2: manual which answers a few different questions around I think

791
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: you know what your strengths and weaknesses are, what your

792
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: pet peeves are, how to get the best out of me,

793
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: how to respond to feedback those sorts of things, and

794
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 2: it's something that you can then share with your teammates

795
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 2: so that you can work more effectively together. I think

796
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 2: that I'm sort of paraphrasing that somewhat accurately, and I

797
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 2: feel like your read me page is kind of like

798
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 2: an operating manual to knowing how to work with you,

799
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: albeit one that is very, very detailed, which I love.

800
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 2: Can you talk me through well, I guess for people

801
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 2: that you know, I'm assuming that people will probably follow

802
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 2: that link after hearing us talk about it. But for

803
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: those that haven't been to your read me page, what

804
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: does it look like and how did it come about?

805
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: That is a very accurate description. Essentially, my read me

806
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 1: page is an operating manual of how you can quickly

807
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: get up to speed about working with me. It explains

808
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 1: how I like to be communicated with, what I hope

809
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: to earn in working with you, and what you need

810
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 1: to know about me, things like personality type, my working style,

811
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 1: when I generally prefer to work, and there are some

812
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: videos and links that have been written about me so

813
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: you can find some additional context. This is useful for

814
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: many reasons, but it goes back to scaling knowledge. If

815
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,959
Speaker 1: you're working with me for the first time, we've never

816
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: met in person, we might not even and know what

817
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: each other looks like. It's probably going to take quite

818
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: a few hours at best to build some sort of rapport,

819
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: and there will be a lot of answering questions back

820
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: and forth for each other to get an understanding of

821
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: each other. This allows for a much more efficient process.

822
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: You can read this entire page in roughly two minutes

823
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: and you'll learn more about me than it would take

824
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: you two weeks to learn this in person. I've been

825
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: around enough and heard enough feedback that I feel like

826
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: I can write this down and just get straight to

827
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: the point. And an operating manual about people, if you're

828
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: willing to put it out there, is super beneficial because

829
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 1: other people then come to you and they know exactly

830
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: how to make your day more efficient, and then conversely,

831
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: they have a better understanding of how you're reacting to them.

832
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: So where did this come from? Two places? One the

833
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: get Lab ceo. If you look up the Getlab ceo page,

834
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 1: he lists out very similar things, even talking about his

835
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: common flaws, things that he has received feedback on time

836
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: and time again that he's still actively working to improve

837
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: upon as a human being. And I thought, well, if

838
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 1: our CEO could model that type of thing, maybe I

839
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: should write something like that as well. There's also a

840
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: gentleman named Jeremy on our team who created or read

841
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: me about himself that I used as a template and

842
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: I built on that. So kudos to Jeremy for writing

843
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: that down first. Read me's for people aren't necessarily new,

844
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: but I think read me as an operating manual within

845
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: a remote setting is incredibly powerful, especially for people that

846
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: aren't drafting on in person relationships. When you're genuinely working

847
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: with someone that's net new, it's a big deal.

848
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 2: I want to know for people that are thinking, oh,

849
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: that sounds like a great idea, I'm going to create

850
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 2: my own operating manual, what are some of the key

851
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 2: questions that people should be answering about themselves to make

852
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 2: it really useful?

853
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: So the cool thing about anything in the get lab handbook.

854
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 1: My read me included it's all creative commons and all

855
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: open source, so you literally can copy and paste it

856
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: and change it up and use it as a template

857
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: without even asking for permission. But the core areas that

858
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: need to be in there are about you, what you

859
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: think you are, what matters to you, what makes you

860
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: a person, and then another section on how you can

861
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: help me, and then another section on your working style,

862
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: one more section on what you assume about others, one

863
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 1: on what you want to earn, and then communicating with me.

864
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: This is a really important one, especially in a remote setting.

865
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: I really like a synchronous communication. I really like written

866
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: communication if you can engage with me over text instead

867
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: of jumping straight into a voice or video call. I

868
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: generally prefer that that is not the case for everyone,

869
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: and this is why it is very useful to have

870
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: that written down so so that there are as few

871
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 1: misinterpretations as possible.

872
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 2: Now I have a couple of final questions for you

873
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 2: time that we have. My first one is what companies

874
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 2: do you look to for inspiration on remote work? Because

875
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 2: I think before I discovered you and git lab via

876
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 2: one of my teammates, Charlotte Rash. I got a lot

877
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 2: of my inspiration definitely from the guys at base Camp

878
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 2: and also Matt Mullenwig at Automatic, and I'm wondering, where

879
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 2: where do you look?

880
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 3: Who else is doing it well?

881
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: Those two for sure. Shopify is another one that I've

882
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: been very encouraged by. They have made a move what

883
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 1: they're calling digital by default, and it is really hard

884
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: to transition to remote first or all remote, especially if

885
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: you had a coocated culture, and they're doing it as

886
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 1: well as any company I've seen at that size. They're

887
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: being very open about it, very transparent about it, and

888
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: they're putting wellness front and center. I'm very encouraged by that.

889
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: The folks that dost have also open sourced a lot

890
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 1: of their knowledge, which I think is amazing. And there's

891
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: another startup called all My they're essentially building a knowledge

892
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 1: base and they're going to have version control in this

893
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: as well, so that you can use this to build

894
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 1: your own company handbook. If you're a bit overwhelmed thinking

895
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: how can I replicate the get lab handbook for my company.

896
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,399
Speaker 1: Almanac allows you to pull from open source templates from

897
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 1: the world's best knowledge, so you don't have to start

898
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: from scratch. So I think what they're doing is incredibly

899
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: powerful and it could not come at a better time

900
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: now that so many companies are suddenly remote. So go

901
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 1: to Almanac, and they have done the legwork of finding

902
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: the world's best open source knowledge on all of this.

903
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: And I'll close with one other thing, and that's a

904
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: ton of small companies you've never heard of, but will

905
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: in five years. I think what will happen is in

906
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: five to eight years, it's going to seem like an

907
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 1: overnight phenomenon that the percentage of all remote companies is

908
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: going to skyrocket. It's going to seem like it happened overnight.

909
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 1: But indeed what is happening is they're all being born

910
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: as startups in twenty twenty when you can't go to

911
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 1: an office, they have no other choice, So they're simply

912
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: building and scaling their team, all remote, and they're never

913
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: going to know anything different. And then, of course some

914
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: of them are going to grow and grow, and then

915
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: there will be a few massive exits and IPOs, and

916
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: it will seem to the mainstream that overnight this became

917
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: some amazing phenomenon. But pay close attention to the small companies,

918
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 1: the five, ten, fifteen, fifty person companies that are doing

919
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: this all remote. What they are writing down, what they

920
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 1: are building right now is a model for how to

921
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: do it, and a lot of that actually can be

922
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 1: scaled up and extrapolated even into larger legacy organizations.

923
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's such a good point.

924
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 2: Now, something about your background that I learned when I

925
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 2: was researching you is that you were managing editor for

926
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 2: in Gadget for part of your seven and a half

927
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: years working there, and you were the global editor in

928
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: shape for tech Radar. So I feel like I'm a

929
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 2: bit of a geek when it comes to gadgets, but

930
00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 2: you're clearly at a.

931
00:50:58,600 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 3: Whole other level.

932
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 2: I want to know what are some of your favorite

933
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: gadgets that you're loving right now? You know that help

934
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 2: you be better at remote work, or more productive or

935
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: just happier in general.

936
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: I love this question. So right now, the more monitors,

937
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: the better I have this immense workstation. It looks like

938
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: something out of NASA, like I could launch rockets to

939
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: space from here. The more screen real estate, the better

940
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: it allows me to space things out, and it gives

941
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: me the way I look at it as mental space

942
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: and screen, real estate space are very closely correlated, so

943
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: the more space I can have, the better. I also

944
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: love my Sony mirrorless camera. If you go to my

945
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: read me. In fact, I have my entire videocam setup

946
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: and I love it. It's much better than a webcam.

947
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: I do a lot of interviews and it's fun to

948
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 1: tinker with this. Yob the CEO of remote dot com,

949
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: has an even more amazing setup. Be sure to check

950
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: out the remote dot com blog for a look at

951
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: what he uses. I think this is a fun new

952
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:07,399
Speaker 1: space all time. My favorite gadget is the MacBook Air.

953
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: It fundamentally reshaped computing. It's still one of my favorite computers. Ever,

954
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: I still keep one around as a secondary I think

955
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 1: it's like ten years old now or something. It is

956
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: amazing how productive it still is. My all time favorite

957
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: moment from covering technology for almost a decade is being

958
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 1: at what became Steve Jobs's final product keynote. So I

959
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: was fortunate to be in the auditorium for many of

960
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,760
Speaker 1: the iPhone launches and the Mac launches, and it was special.

961
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: They didn't invite very many editors to those events and

962
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: I was able to be there In person with what

963
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: became the final keynote from Steve Jobs and still have

964
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: the lanyard from that event, so very cool. Lots of

965
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: great memories from that era.

966
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 3: Wow, that's quite amazing.

967
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,280
Speaker 2: And I did say that on your read me page

968
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 2: there is literally list of your whole remote office set,

969
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 2: which was really cool. Is are there any gadgets that

970
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 2: I guess sort of sit outside of the office or

971
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 2: things that just you enjoy using for life? Like something

972
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 2: I got recently is a smart skipping rope and I

973
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 2: can't remember the name of the brand.

974
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 3: I got it on the Apple Store, speaking of Apple.

975
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,439
Speaker 2: And it basically counts the number of skips that you do,

976
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: which I'm currently getting a lot of joy out of

977
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 2: every morning. I'm going to do two hundred skips and

978
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 2: that will kind of warm me up to do my

979
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 2: home gym.

980
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 3: I'm really loving that at the moment.

981
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 2: Is there anything in your life, maybe outside of your office,

982
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 2: that you're liking from a gadget point of view, That's.

983
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: A great question. I'm going to bend the answer to

984
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 1: this somewhat and I realized that this is sort of

985
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: a North American centric answer, but I have a few

986
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: credit cards that give me amazing perks at hotels and

987
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: airlines around the world. So for me, wanderlust is in

988
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,280
Speaker 1: my DNA. And so when I'm not working at home

989
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: in a workspace that I've defined to be somewhere else,

990
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: I want to be on the road. I want to

991
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: be exploring a new place, exploring a new culture. I

992
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: want to travel as efficiently and as luxuriously as possible.

993
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 1: And there are some fun credit cards that allow you

994
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: to earn points and buy free travel. It's amazing what

995
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 1: you can do if you start digging down that rabbit hole.

996
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 1: I actually spent a stint at the Points guy. They

997
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: are the go to resource on all of this. So

998
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: my fun out of office gadgets would all be related

999
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: to airline travel. I have a backpack that I think

1000
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: is very efficient that we could nerd out on for

1001
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: a while, But most of it comes back to committing

1002
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: to an airline, sticking with them, and then enjoying the

1003
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 1: perks that come from that.

1004
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 2: Okay, but tell me about this backpack. I want to

1005
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 2: nerd out on this backpack place.

1006
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:47,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a mountain hardware. It's mostly designed for mountaineering.

1007
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: It's designed for actually climbing mountains. But I have repurposed it.

1008
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 1: It has great accessibility at the very top, and when

1009
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: you think about conventional air travel, slide your backpack underneath

1010
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: the seat. A conventional backpack, the zippers don't really open

1011
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: up in the right way. You have to pull it

1012
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 1: all the way out and then unzip it around the

1013
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: front and then you can get to what you want.

1014
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: But this backpack is expressly designed to be accessed from

1015
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: the top, and so I just love the organization and

1016
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: the compartmentalization because it works really well when you have

1017
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 1: one shoved in the overhead and you don't want to

1018
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: pull the whole thing down, or you have one shoved

1019
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: under the seat in front of you. You might can

1020
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: tell that I'm a million mile around Delta and I

1021
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: really do spend a ton of time in planes, and

1022
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 1: so something is nuanced in that really does improve my

1023
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:35,800
Speaker 1: quality of life.

1024
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 2: I can totally understand that I do not have the

1025
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:40,799
Speaker 2: ideal backpack for flying with.

1026
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 3: Darren.

1027
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 2: My final question, if people want to learn more about

1028
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 2: what you are doing and connect in some way, what

1029
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 2: is the best way to do that.

1030
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter and LinkedIn. I'm at

1031
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 1: Darren Murph on both of those if you google get

1032
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 1: Lab Remote Playbook, I author that. I also offer third

1033
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: Living the Remote Dream. This was a guy that I

1034
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 1: wrote after I set my world record at Engadget and

1035
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: had about a month off to travel between rolls. So

1036
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: check that out on Amazon and if you don't love it,

1037
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 1: send me a note, and the next round of ice

1038
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: cream is on me.

1039
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 3: That's awesome. I'll link to all of that in the

1040
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 3: show notes.

1041
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 2: Darren, it has just been fascinating talking with you.

1042
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:25,320
Speaker 3: I've loved du chat. Thank you so much for your time.

1043
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate

1044
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:28,720
Speaker 1: the time.

1045
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 3: That is it for today's show.

1046
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 2: If you liked hearing Darren talk about remote working, why

1047
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 2: not share it with someone else that you know.

1048
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 3: That could benefit.

1049
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 2: Obviously, so many companies are trying to work out how

1050
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 2: to make remote working really work, and I just think.

1051
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 3: Darren has such great insight on this topic.

1052
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 2: So I hope you enjoyed this episode and I will

1053
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 2: see you next time.