1
00:00:04,071 --> 00:00:06,511
Speaker 1: Black cast, unite our voices.

2
00:00:07,431 --> 00:00:11,511
Speaker 2: So I had been programmed by birth in my culture

3
00:00:11,751 --> 00:00:15,471
Speaker 2: that in life you have one very well defined trajectory.

4
00:00:15,511 --> 00:00:16,511
Speaker 3: You go to school, you.

5
00:00:16,471 --> 00:00:21,551
Speaker 2: Go to university, You study ideally medicine if not, engineering, hearing, yes,

6
00:00:21,671 --> 00:00:23,871
Speaker 2: if not, then you do law. Then you get a

7
00:00:23,871 --> 00:00:26,311
Speaker 2: good job, and then you get married, and then as

8
00:00:26,391 --> 00:00:28,951
Speaker 2: quickly as possible, you have a child and live happily.

9
00:00:28,951 --> 00:00:31,551
Speaker 2: Ever after, no, you have to have more children. The

10
00:00:31,631 --> 00:00:34,831
Speaker 2: key is no, matter what you do, not get divorced.

11
00:00:35,031 --> 00:00:38,951
Speaker 2: And that is shame, yes to your family, embarrassment. And

12
00:00:38,991 --> 00:00:42,671
Speaker 2: that's what happened to me, and so very quickly I

13
00:00:42,711 --> 00:00:45,631
Speaker 2: had to recalibrate my life.

14
00:00:47,911 --> 00:00:51,631
Speaker 1: Raba Nandigepou is a human rights and discrimination lawyer with

15
00:00:51,671 --> 00:00:55,831
Speaker 1: more than eighteen years experience working at the intersection of justice,

16
00:00:55,951 --> 00:01:00,031
Speaker 1: accountability and systemic reform. Her work has been shaped by

17
00:01:00,071 --> 00:01:02,911
Speaker 1: a deep con it meant to dignity, safety, and the

18
00:01:02,911 --> 00:01:07,591
Speaker 1: belief that systems must change, not just individuals. Baba spent

19
00:01:07,831 --> 00:01:11,991
Speaker 1: many years working to eliminate sexual harm, sexual harassment, and

20
00:01:12,031 --> 00:01:16,311
Speaker 1: systemic discrimination here in Australia. She has helped shape some

21
00:01:16,471 --> 00:01:20,231
Speaker 1: of the country's most significant reform work in this space.

22
00:01:20,471 --> 00:01:23,671
Speaker 1: Always guided by a clear sense of responsibility to those

23
00:01:23,871 --> 00:01:28,791
Speaker 1: most impacted by injustice. Her story is grounded incourage, persistence,

24
00:01:29,231 --> 00:01:34,311
Speaker 1: and a determination to turn principles into action. Welcome to

25
00:01:34,391 --> 00:01:35,031
Speaker 1: the podcast.

26
00:01:35,671 --> 00:01:37,991
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me, Mara. It's been a

27
00:01:38,031 --> 00:01:39,591
Speaker 2: long time coming, hasn't it.

28
00:01:39,591 --> 00:01:42,431
Speaker 1: It has where we're going to make it happen. And

29
00:01:42,591 --> 00:01:45,271
Speaker 1: here we are in twenty twenty six, kicking off, especially

30
00:01:45,351 --> 00:01:47,191
Speaker 1: just this new structure. And you love structure.

31
00:01:47,671 --> 00:01:48,551
Speaker 3: We know each other.

32
00:01:48,951 --> 00:01:50,311
Speaker 1: You're a lawyer and I do.

33
00:01:50,511 --> 00:01:53,311
Speaker 3: I always say, Mara, that's how my brain works. Just

34
00:01:53,311 --> 00:01:54,231
Speaker 3: give me a structure.

35
00:01:54,311 --> 00:01:57,311
Speaker 1: And I love this about you because I'm now learning

36
00:01:57,831 --> 00:02:00,871
Speaker 1: how to be more structured. So we're you know, we're

37
00:02:00,871 --> 00:02:02,111
Speaker 1: supporting each other's.

38
00:02:01,831 --> 00:02:04,351
Speaker 2: Sores a little bit more flow slow. I think we

39
00:02:04,391 --> 00:02:05,911
Speaker 2: bounce off each other beautifully.

40
00:02:06,151 --> 00:02:06,591
Speaker 3: Thank you.

41
00:02:06,911 --> 00:02:10,071
Speaker 1: I love that so Praba. If you had to describe

42
00:02:10,191 --> 00:02:14,031
Speaker 1: who you are without your job title, where would you start?

43
00:02:14,431 --> 00:02:19,191
Speaker 2: I would start with saying that I'm, you know, first

44
00:02:19,231 --> 00:02:24,231
Speaker 2: and foremost, the daughter of migrants. I'm shaped by two cultures,

45
00:02:24,391 --> 00:02:29,271
Speaker 2: the Australian culture and the Indian culture, but never feeling

46
00:02:29,711 --> 00:02:35,711
Speaker 2: like I quite belong to either. And then I'm deeply compassionate,

47
00:02:35,911 --> 00:02:39,871
Speaker 2: some would say to a fault, I am a sole parent.

48
00:02:40,111 --> 00:02:44,471
Speaker 2: Yes to my son Ishan, who's now entering the tween years,

49
00:02:44,591 --> 00:02:49,791
Speaker 2: which is probably a whole episode another episode, isn't it navigating?

50
00:02:50,111 --> 00:02:52,351
Speaker 3: Yes, those very new waters for me.

51
00:02:55,071 --> 00:02:58,031
Speaker 1: So I'm going to ask you a question really quickly, Praba,

52
00:02:58,151 --> 00:03:02,031
Speaker 1: and I'm using conversation cards. I'm bringing them into my podcast.

53
00:03:02,111 --> 00:03:03,191
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put you on the spot.

54
00:03:03,311 --> 00:03:05,031
Speaker 3: Love, I'm being the test bunny Mara.

55
00:03:05,511 --> 00:03:07,991
Speaker 1: I know you do prah, but tell me something about

56
00:03:07,991 --> 00:03:11,751
Speaker 1: yourself that no one knows and would be surprised to

57
00:03:11,871 --> 00:03:12,591
Speaker 1: know about you.

58
00:03:13,511 --> 00:03:17,591
Speaker 2: I'm going to do a really boring one. I was

59
00:03:17,631 --> 00:03:21,071
Speaker 2: born in Canada. I don't think anyone knows that. Say, oh,

60
00:03:21,111 --> 00:03:23,311
Speaker 2: we bought in Adelaine and I was born in Adelaide.

61
00:03:23,631 --> 00:03:24,671
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.

62
00:03:24,831 --> 00:03:25,591
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was.

63
00:03:25,511 --> 00:03:26,351
Speaker 3: Born in Canada.

64
00:03:26,791 --> 00:03:31,831
Speaker 2: My parents had moved there in the early nineteen eighties.

65
00:03:32,511 --> 00:03:36,831
Speaker 2: My dad was posted with the university there, so I

66
00:03:36,951 --> 00:03:41,471
Speaker 2: was born there and we fled pretty quickly. Eighteen months

67
00:03:41,711 --> 00:03:44,551
Speaker 2: they moved to Melbourne, where we stayed for a few

68
00:03:44,631 --> 00:03:47,231
Speaker 2: years before we moved to South Australia. So sorry, I

69
00:03:47,271 --> 00:03:50,111
Speaker 2: know that's a bit boring, but not but not many

70
00:03:50,111 --> 00:03:50,911
Speaker 2: people know that.

71
00:03:51,031 --> 00:03:53,311
Speaker 1: There you go and Prava. We have known each other

72
00:03:53,351 --> 00:03:56,751
Speaker 1: now for at least two three years at least. Yeah,

73
00:03:56,791 --> 00:03:58,911
Speaker 1: and I didn't know that about you. And we don't

74
00:03:58,951 --> 00:04:02,871
Speaker 1: really talk much about work. When we get together, we

75
00:04:02,911 --> 00:04:05,551
Speaker 1: talk about you everything but work. In the last five minutes,

76
00:04:06,031 --> 00:04:09,791
Speaker 1: we'll go, oh, by the way, do you know this person?

77
00:04:09,871 --> 00:04:10,591
Speaker 1: Can you connect me?

78
00:04:10,631 --> 00:04:10,831
Speaker 4: There?

79
00:04:10,871 --> 00:04:11,031
Speaker 1: Why?

80
00:04:11,071 --> 00:04:11,711
Speaker 3: Why don't we.

81
00:04:11,591 --> 00:04:14,191
Speaker 1: Do this together? I love it? Are you ready for

82
00:04:14,191 --> 00:04:18,111
Speaker 1: the next one? Alright? It is there a time in

83
00:04:18,151 --> 00:04:21,511
Speaker 1: your childhood when you could look back and think, this

84
00:04:21,591 --> 00:04:24,231
Speaker 1: is the reason why I am sitting here? Did I

85
00:04:24,271 --> 00:04:25,391
Speaker 1: read that properly? Yeah?

86
00:04:25,431 --> 00:04:28,191
Speaker 3: No, I did. I'm just pondrais that was a long question?

87
00:04:28,751 --> 00:04:33,471
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, and it ties into the most common question

88
00:04:33,751 --> 00:04:37,431
Speaker 2: I get, and that is why did you become a

89
00:04:37,511 --> 00:04:42,071
Speaker 2: human rights lawyer? Where did this interest in social justice

90
00:04:42,151 --> 00:04:45,511
Speaker 2: human rights come from? And I think people are expecting this,

91
00:04:45,631 --> 00:04:50,631
Speaker 2: you know, grandoise origin story, And again there is no

92
00:04:50,951 --> 00:04:55,391
Speaker 2: grand origin story. It's not a particular moment that I

93
00:04:55,431 --> 00:04:58,591
Speaker 2: can recall. And this used to bug me for a

94
00:04:58,591 --> 00:05:01,631
Speaker 2: long time, particularly you know, in recent years, I'm doing

95
00:05:01,631 --> 00:05:03,751
Speaker 2: more public facing work. I'm doing a lot of to

96
00:05:03,831 --> 00:05:07,151
Speaker 2: views and people want a story that people are going

97
00:05:07,191 --> 00:05:10,231
Speaker 2: to listeners are going to click on, right, and I

98
00:05:10,271 --> 00:05:10,831
Speaker 2: don't have that.

99
00:05:12,271 --> 00:05:14,991
Speaker 3: But I was reading the story.

100
00:05:14,671 --> 00:05:19,271
Speaker 1: But unfortunately it's not the clickbait exactly exactly.

101
00:05:19,511 --> 00:05:24,351
Speaker 2: But I was reading Tarana Burke's memoirs recently, and for

102
00:05:24,431 --> 00:05:29,071
Speaker 2: those listeners who don't know, Tarana Burke is the original

103
00:05:29,351 --> 00:05:33,791
Speaker 2: founder of the Me Too movement in the US. So sorry,

104
00:05:33,831 --> 00:05:38,431
Speaker 2: it wasn't a Hollywood actress. It was the formidable Tarana Burke.

105
00:05:38,711 --> 00:05:43,791
Speaker 2: And in her memoirs she wrote, I was born hardwired

106
00:05:43,911 --> 00:05:47,151
Speaker 2: to fight justice. And when I read that, it was

107
00:05:47,191 --> 00:05:50,311
Speaker 2: this light bulb moment. It's that I don't quite know

108
00:05:50,511 --> 00:05:54,191
Speaker 2: where it came from. My dad is definitely deeply compassionate,

109
00:05:54,551 --> 00:05:56,951
Speaker 2: but didn't want me to go into human rights, which.

110
00:05:56,711 --> 00:05:57,511
Speaker 3: Is another story.

111
00:05:58,751 --> 00:06:01,831
Speaker 2: But from as long as I can remember, I had

112
00:06:01,911 --> 00:06:06,671
Speaker 2: this deep empathy and in an aversion to any form

113
00:06:06,871 --> 00:06:10,791
Speaker 2: of injustice. What I can remember vividly was going back

114
00:06:10,791 --> 00:06:14,551
Speaker 2: to India. So every couple of years, my parents took

115
00:06:14,631 --> 00:06:17,551
Speaker 2: my brother and I back because all their family lived there.

116
00:06:17,591 --> 00:06:20,551
Speaker 2: They come from very in South India, had a small

117
00:06:20,591 --> 00:06:24,951
Speaker 2: town called Quamptore. They both come from very big families,

118
00:06:24,951 --> 00:06:27,711
Speaker 2: so all their brothers and sisters, you know, my aunts,

119
00:06:27,791 --> 00:06:30,671
Speaker 2: my cousins, my grandparents, and when they were alive, they

120
00:06:30,671 --> 00:06:34,231
Speaker 2: were all back there. So we went back frequently. And

121
00:06:34,311 --> 00:06:36,471
Speaker 2: when we went there, you know, I would notice that

122
00:06:36,511 --> 00:06:39,911
Speaker 2: there were kids my age, not in school but working

123
00:06:40,231 --> 00:06:43,631
Speaker 2: as the maids, as the cooks, and I didn't know why,

124
00:06:43,711 --> 00:06:48,351
Speaker 2: but that just really unsettled me. And I'd be asking

125
00:06:48,431 --> 00:06:51,071
Speaker 2: a lot of questions, yeah, and getting a lot of

126
00:06:51,151 --> 00:06:53,031
Speaker 2: raised eyebrows, you know, well that's just the way.

127
00:06:53,711 --> 00:06:54,591
Speaker 3: Why but why?

128
00:06:55,751 --> 00:07:00,471
Speaker 2: So that was that sense of injustice was very strong

129
00:07:01,191 --> 00:07:04,111
Speaker 2: with me from early, from my early days, and then

130
00:07:04,191 --> 00:07:06,991
Speaker 2: you know, at high school, I started, you know, volunteering

131
00:07:07,071 --> 00:07:11,111
Speaker 2: writing letters with Amnesty International. We had an Amnesty International letter

132
00:07:11,151 --> 00:07:12,991
Speaker 2: writing club at high school. I don't know if that's

133
00:07:13,031 --> 00:07:14,911
Speaker 2: still I never heard of this club.

134
00:07:15,311 --> 00:07:16,791
Speaker 1: I was part of the student council.

135
00:07:17,111 --> 00:07:17,431
Speaker 3: Yeah.

136
00:07:17,551 --> 00:07:21,111
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we would write letters to oppressive regimes, not

137
00:07:21,151 --> 00:07:23,111
Speaker 2: the Australian government, well, although we should have.

138
00:07:23,311 --> 00:07:27,351
Speaker 1: Yes, you were focusing on overseas exactly. Wow, it says

139
00:07:27,391 --> 00:07:29,751
Speaker 1: a lot about the school and the people you were around.

140
00:07:30,111 --> 00:07:30,911
Speaker 1: Is an Adelaide?

141
00:07:31,191 --> 00:07:32,351
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was an Adelaide.

142
00:07:32,471 --> 00:07:32,671
Speaker 1: Yeah.

143
00:07:32,671 --> 00:07:34,831
Speaker 3: So it was just very much part of my DNA.

144
00:07:35,271 --> 00:07:42,271
Speaker 1: Yeah, as a human rights lawyer, I know that you've

145
00:07:42,311 --> 00:07:45,951
Speaker 1: done some work around reform. Can you share a little

146
00:07:45,991 --> 00:07:49,551
Speaker 1: bit about that work with our listeners? Yes?

147
00:07:49,911 --> 00:07:53,951
Speaker 2: Sure, Well, a lot of my career has been working

148
00:07:53,951 --> 00:07:58,471
Speaker 2: with asylumn seekers and refugees, and so I started off

149
00:07:58,511 --> 00:08:02,751
Speaker 2: at university volunteering with a local non for profit that

150
00:08:02,791 --> 00:08:05,511
Speaker 2: would go out to what at the time was a

151
00:08:05,551 --> 00:08:10,031
Speaker 2: notorious immigration detention center in Port Agusta, which is a

152
00:08:10,031 --> 00:08:12,871
Speaker 2: long way out South Australia.

153
00:08:12,911 --> 00:08:15,591
Speaker 3: Have you had heard of it? A lot of mob there,

154
00:08:15,791 --> 00:08:16,751
Speaker 3: a lot of mob there.

155
00:08:17,591 --> 00:08:21,631
Speaker 2: And I would go and I would take the stories

156
00:08:21,911 --> 00:08:25,111
Speaker 2: of the asylum seekers and refugees that had been locked

157
00:08:25,151 --> 00:08:29,591
Speaker 2: up there. And this was one of those pivotal moments

158
00:08:30,111 --> 00:08:33,591
Speaker 2: that really shaped who I am and why I do

159
00:08:33,911 --> 00:08:37,071
Speaker 2: what I do, and why I'm so deeply passionate about it,

160
00:08:37,671 --> 00:08:42,711
Speaker 2: because there, you know, I was sitting across from young

161
00:08:42,991 --> 00:08:48,271
Speaker 2: men not much older than me who had fled persecution,

162
00:08:48,831 --> 00:08:53,271
Speaker 2: particularly in Sri Lanka, so bravely, you know, they came

163
00:08:53,431 --> 00:08:56,951
Speaker 2: by boat, left everything that they knew, only to be

164
00:08:57,151 --> 00:09:01,831
Speaker 2: locked up by criminals, locked up like criminals by the

165
00:09:01,871 --> 00:09:06,671
Speaker 2: Australian government. And I would witness in real time, their

166
00:09:06,711 --> 00:09:09,511
Speaker 2: mental health deteriorate.

167
00:09:09,031 --> 00:09:10,431
Speaker 3: As well as their physical health.

168
00:09:10,471 --> 00:09:14,591
Speaker 2: I had one client I went with him to hospital.

169
00:09:14,791 --> 00:09:18,271
Speaker 2: He was hospitalized because his mental health became so bad.

170
00:09:18,471 --> 00:09:22,951
Speaker 2: He was on suicide watch, and I went with him

171
00:09:23,351 --> 00:09:25,911
Speaker 2: through that time. I sat with him. You know, my

172
00:09:26,151 --> 00:09:28,071
Speaker 2: dad would make curries, we would bring it to him.

173
00:09:28,551 --> 00:09:33,031
Speaker 2: And so when you are so close to that type

174
00:09:33,111 --> 00:09:36,711
Speaker 2: of human suffering, you know, at the hands of the government,

175
00:09:37,071 --> 00:09:41,031
Speaker 2: you can't unsee that. And that has what has really

176
00:09:41,151 --> 00:09:47,151
Speaker 2: shaped why I'm so deeply passionate about government accountability, whether

177
00:09:47,191 --> 00:09:50,391
Speaker 2: it's in the asylum seeker or refugee space, whether it's

178
00:09:50,431 --> 00:09:54,511
Speaker 2: in First Nations justice. I'm really passionate about accountability with

179
00:09:54,551 --> 00:09:57,351
Speaker 2: things like you know, debts and custody, excessive use of force,

180
00:09:58,151 --> 00:10:01,751
Speaker 2: or any other oppressive, you know, legislative regime that's going

181
00:10:01,791 --> 00:10:05,911
Speaker 2: to have human impact. That was a moment that really

182
00:10:06,031 --> 00:10:09,071
Speaker 2: shaped it. And so I spent a lot time at

183
00:10:09,111 --> 00:10:12,111
Speaker 2: the Australian Human Rights Commission and one of the key

184
00:10:12,271 --> 00:10:15,271
Speaker 2: inquiries I worked on there was the National Inquiry into

185
00:10:15,351 --> 00:10:19,351
Speaker 2: Children and Immigration Detention. You know, in that inquiry, we

186
00:10:19,431 --> 00:10:23,231
Speaker 2: went around the country visiting children and families locked up

187
00:10:23,231 --> 00:10:26,911
Speaker 2: in detention centers from Villawood Immigration Detention Center. We went

188
00:10:26,991 --> 00:10:30,911
Speaker 2: to Christmas Island Detention Center numerous times. And there was

189
00:10:30,951 --> 00:10:33,911
Speaker 2: a lot of controversy around that inquiry. I'm not sure

190
00:10:33,951 --> 00:10:36,951
Speaker 2: if you remember. It was led by the President of

191
00:10:36,991 --> 00:10:40,071
Speaker 2: the time, Jillian Triggs, and there was outraged by the

192
00:10:40,071 --> 00:10:43,191
Speaker 2: government and the Murdock Press of why you know we've

193
00:10:43,191 --> 00:10:47,751
Speaker 2: conducted this inquiry because it really did put a global

194
00:10:47,871 --> 00:10:53,511
Speaker 2: spotlight on the way the Australian government was harming children

195
00:10:53,671 --> 00:10:56,271
Speaker 2: in detention. And you know, when that report was released,

196
00:10:56,911 --> 00:11:00,911
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister at the time, Tony Abbott said Jillian

197
00:11:01,031 --> 00:11:06,311
Speaker 2: Triggs and her team should be ashamed of ourselves for

198
00:11:06,391 --> 00:11:06,991
Speaker 2: that report.

199
00:11:07,431 --> 00:11:11,151
Speaker 3: Stop at Yeah, so was his response.

200
00:11:12,031 --> 00:11:14,751
Speaker 1: What did when you heard that scene that in the media?

201
00:11:14,871 --> 00:11:17,031
Speaker 1: Do you remember, like, how did it make you feel

202
00:11:17,071 --> 00:11:20,951
Speaker 1: when you knew at your core what you was doing

203
00:11:21,111 --> 00:11:24,351
Speaker 1: was the right thing to do and that spotlight on

204
00:11:24,511 --> 00:11:30,751
Speaker 1: our country and our government with it's treatment mistreatment of refugees,

205
00:11:30,791 --> 00:11:35,311
Speaker 1: of people of children like that had to happen. And

206
00:11:35,391 --> 00:11:39,071
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of you being part of that. But

207
00:11:39,151 --> 00:11:42,351
Speaker 1: the emotional cost to this work in reform, can you

208
00:11:42,351 --> 00:11:43,391
Speaker 1: share some of that with me?

209
00:11:44,151 --> 00:11:51,951
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's to be in the presence of that amount

210
00:11:51,991 --> 00:11:57,071
Speaker 2: of human suffering, particularly when it comes to children, particularly

211
00:11:57,071 --> 00:12:00,711
Speaker 2: when it comes to orphans. So I spoke to so

212
00:12:00,831 --> 00:12:04,271
Speaker 2: many we call them unaccompanied children who come to Australia

213
00:12:04,271 --> 00:12:07,711
Speaker 2: by boat. Sometimes you know their parents have sent them.

214
00:12:07,791 --> 00:12:11,471
Speaker 2: Often their parents have been killed in war after enduring

215
00:12:11,551 --> 00:12:14,191
Speaker 2: all of that, only to come to Australia and to

216
00:12:14,231 --> 00:12:17,871
Speaker 2: be locked up indefinitely. And some listeners might not understand

217
00:12:17,911 --> 00:12:23,591
Speaker 2: that Australia has the most draconian, inhumane immigration detention policy

218
00:12:24,071 --> 00:12:28,671
Speaker 2: on the planet. So the Australian government is allowed to

219
00:12:28,991 --> 00:12:32,351
Speaker 2: lock up people who come by boat and there's no

220
00:12:32,671 --> 00:12:36,351
Speaker 2: time limitation to that, And that's the real nas definite,

221
00:12:36,431 --> 00:12:39,711
Speaker 2: that's the real clincher. If it was for seven days,

222
00:12:39,751 --> 00:12:42,471
Speaker 2: if it was for three months, people would be okay

223
00:12:42,511 --> 00:12:45,191
Speaker 2: with that because they know the release state. I've had

224
00:12:45,311 --> 00:12:48,511
Speaker 2: so many asylum seekers over the years say to me,

225
00:12:49,351 --> 00:12:53,431
Speaker 2: I wish we were criminals. I wish we would have

226
00:12:54,071 --> 00:12:56,711
Speaker 2: so we would have a release date. It's not the

227
00:12:56,751 --> 00:13:00,671
Speaker 2: conditions that people complain about. It's the mental torture of

228
00:13:00,711 --> 00:13:04,191
Speaker 2: not knowing when they're going to be released. But during

229
00:13:04,231 --> 00:13:06,711
Speaker 2: COVID and we had the lockdowns and we were going

230
00:13:06,751 --> 00:13:09,791
Speaker 2: crazy because we didn't know when those lockdowns were going

231
00:13:09,791 --> 00:13:13,071
Speaker 2: to end. Imagine being in detention with that uncertainty for

232
00:13:13,191 --> 00:13:14,071
Speaker 2: ten years.

233
00:13:15,031 --> 00:13:19,551
Speaker 1: And the rise of those you know, I don't even

234
00:13:19,551 --> 00:13:22,271
Speaker 1: want to call them refugees. What do we refer to

235
00:13:22,311 --> 00:13:25,991
Speaker 1: that they're known as refugees within the Australian kind of landscape.

236
00:13:25,991 --> 00:13:31,231
Speaker 1: Bra these people that are suffering in the suicide rate. Yes,

237
00:13:31,431 --> 00:13:32,231
Speaker 1: it's through the roof.

238
00:13:32,791 --> 00:13:32,991
Speaker 3: Yep.

239
00:13:33,071 --> 00:13:37,511
Speaker 2: I've supported so many individuals in detention who have been suicidal,

240
00:13:37,911 --> 00:13:41,671
Speaker 2: so of course that emotional impact, it does take its toll.

241
00:13:42,191 --> 00:13:45,871
Speaker 2: And it's really after my son was born and I

242
00:13:45,911 --> 00:13:49,751
Speaker 2: became a sole parent, I realized that I didn't have

243
00:13:50,431 --> 00:13:53,671
Speaker 2: the bandwidth to be able to do the job I

244
00:13:53,791 --> 00:13:57,991
Speaker 2: was doing fully. I couldn't be on my phone. I

245
00:13:57,991 --> 00:13:59,791
Speaker 2: couldn't have my phone on all the time to be

246
00:13:59,831 --> 00:14:04,271
Speaker 2: able to take those calls when individuals were in Australia

247
00:14:04,351 --> 00:14:07,591
Speaker 2: or in Nauru was suicidal. And that's when I made

248
00:14:07,631 --> 00:14:10,071
Speaker 2: that pivot into workplace culture.

249
00:14:10,751 --> 00:14:12,791
Speaker 4: We'll be right back after this short break.

250
00:14:12,991 --> 00:14:17,031
Speaker 1: Real culture isn't built in strategy decks. It's built in

251
00:14:17,071 --> 00:14:18,911
Speaker 1: the moments leaders are tested.

252
00:14:19,071 --> 00:14:21,831
Speaker 3: I'm Prava and Andergo Pal and now I'm Ndonarabeans.

253
00:14:22,031 --> 00:14:25,791
Speaker 2: Together we're pulling back the curtain on workplaces, how leadership,

254
00:14:25,911 --> 00:14:29,231
Speaker 2: accountability and culture collide when the pressure is on.

255
00:14:29,471 --> 00:14:35,191
Speaker 1: These are honest, practical conversations where leaders choose courage over comfort.

256
00:14:35,071 --> 00:14:36,831
Speaker 2: Culture, capital, leadership and action.

257
00:14:37,151 --> 00:14:39,751
Speaker 1: Launching soon on all podcast platforms.

258
00:14:43,631 --> 00:14:46,751
Speaker 4: You're listening to Black Magic Woman with Mondanara Bails. Let's

259
00:14:46,791 --> 00:14:48,071
Speaker 4: get back to the yard.

260
00:14:48,471 --> 00:14:51,871
Speaker 1: And that's how Elevate Consulting started.

261
00:14:52,031 --> 00:14:52,271
Speaker 3: Yeah.

262
00:14:52,311 --> 00:14:54,631
Speaker 2: First I did a couple of major pieces of the

263
00:14:54,631 --> 00:14:57,551
Speaker 2: Australian Human Rights Commission. I was a senior legal advisor

264
00:14:57,791 --> 00:15:01,951
Speaker 2: on a landmark national inquiry into workplace sexual harassment Respect

265
00:15:01,951 --> 00:15:06,231
Speaker 2: at Work and that's what significant legislative reform in this

266
00:15:06,311 --> 00:15:10,951
Speaker 2: country around requiring all businesses and organizations to have to

267
00:15:10,991 --> 00:15:14,751
Speaker 2: take proactive measures to eliminate sexual harassment and sex discrimination.

268
00:15:15,111 --> 00:15:17,671
Speaker 2: That's called the positive Duty for the legal nerdes listening.

269
00:15:18,151 --> 00:15:20,671
Speaker 2: But that was a key reform that came out of

270
00:15:20,671 --> 00:15:25,871
Speaker 2: that Respect at Work national inquiry. The other key inquiry

271
00:15:25,871 --> 00:15:30,231
Speaker 2: that I worked on was into parliamentary workplace culture. So

272
00:15:30,271 --> 00:15:34,471
Speaker 2: after Britney Higgins so bravely came out with her horrific

273
00:15:34,551 --> 00:15:39,551
Speaker 2: experiences in Parliament. The government appointed the Australian Human Rights

274
00:15:39,551 --> 00:15:43,831
Speaker 2: Commission to do a cultural review into Commonwealth Parliament and

275
00:15:43,871 --> 00:15:47,631
Speaker 2: there I was the Director of Legal and we developed

276
00:15:48,031 --> 00:15:53,791
Speaker 2: a range of legislative and policy reforms to help transform

277
00:15:53,871 --> 00:15:57,911
Speaker 2: that culture. All have been adopted and have been implemented

278
00:15:57,951 --> 00:16:01,951
Speaker 2: now by the Australian government. So that was certainly a

279
00:16:02,031 --> 00:16:08,871
Speaker 2: career milestone to be part of the development of such

280
00:16:09,031 --> 00:16:10,911
Speaker 2: impactful systemic reforms.

281
00:16:11,991 --> 00:16:14,791
Speaker 1: And I want to talk about organizations, right because you've

282
00:16:14,831 --> 00:16:17,351
Speaker 1: got a lot of experience in this place, in this space,

283
00:16:17,831 --> 00:16:22,591
Speaker 1: and just for our listeners that are probably navigating, you know,

284
00:16:23,511 --> 00:16:27,951
Speaker 1: sexual harassment or bullying, you know, in the workplace, what

285
00:16:27,991 --> 00:16:33,031
Speaker 1: do organizations still get wrong about workplace safety and respect?

286
00:16:33,351 --> 00:16:34,551
Speaker 3: That's such a great question.

287
00:16:35,751 --> 00:16:39,591
Speaker 2: Something that still comes up time and time again is

288
00:16:40,111 --> 00:16:44,191
Speaker 2: you know, we don't have any problems because we're not

289
00:16:44,231 --> 00:16:48,191
Speaker 2: seeing reports coming through. We're not getting reports of sexual harassment,

290
00:16:48,191 --> 00:16:52,231
Speaker 2: we're not getting reports of racism. And you know, while

291
00:16:52,431 --> 00:16:55,591
Speaker 2: it would be wonderful if it was the case that, well, okay,

292
00:16:55,631 --> 00:16:58,671
Speaker 2: nothing to see here, we know that's not true because

293
00:16:58,711 --> 00:17:02,791
Speaker 2: we have national statistics when it comes to workplace sexual harassment.

294
00:17:02,871 --> 00:17:05,391
Speaker 2: We know that one in three of the general population

295
00:17:05,511 --> 00:17:08,911
Speaker 2: report experiencing sexual harassment at work, but that jumps when

296
00:17:08,951 --> 00:17:13,871
Speaker 2: it comes to groups from marginalized backgrounds. So, for example,

297
00:17:13,871 --> 00:17:16,511
Speaker 2: fifty six percent of Aboriginal tri Stray Island of people

298
00:17:16,551 --> 00:17:20,271
Speaker 2: report experiencing sexual harassment, fifty two percent of migrant and

299
00:17:20,311 --> 00:17:24,111
Speaker 2: refugee women. So if you're only getting a couple of

300
00:17:24,151 --> 00:17:27,231
Speaker 2: reports a year, that means you don't have a safe

301
00:17:27,311 --> 00:17:30,031
Speaker 2: reporting culture. So I think that's one of the critical

302
00:17:30,151 --> 00:17:34,711
Speaker 2: challenges for organizations not recognizing that they have a problem,

303
00:17:34,831 --> 00:17:37,191
Speaker 2: not being able to, you know, look under the hood

304
00:17:37,631 --> 00:17:41,471
Speaker 2: and see what's really happening with your culture. Another big

305
00:17:41,551 --> 00:17:44,351
Speaker 2: challenge I see across the board is not taking you know,

306
00:17:44,391 --> 00:17:48,751
Speaker 2: that intersectional approach, you know, creating systems and processes that

307
00:17:48,831 --> 00:17:50,791
Speaker 2: take that one size fits all.

308
00:17:52,391 --> 00:17:52,831
Speaker 3: Approach.

309
00:17:52,871 --> 00:17:56,471
Speaker 2: You know, we really need to be tailoring our measures

310
00:17:56,511 --> 00:18:01,111
Speaker 2: to deal with the with the different workers, different identities

311
00:18:01,151 --> 00:18:02,591
Speaker 2: that they come to work with.

312
00:18:03,031 --> 00:18:06,911
Speaker 1: I know you big on accountability, yes I am. So

313
00:18:06,951 --> 00:18:11,151
Speaker 1: what does meaningful accountability actually look like in practice?

314
00:18:11,871 --> 00:18:15,151
Speaker 2: Look, I think in its simplest it's about having those

315
00:18:15,231 --> 00:18:21,511
Speaker 2: consistent and proportionate consequences when something goes wrong. You know,

316
00:18:23,111 --> 00:18:27,151
Speaker 2: so often when I interview workers, and you know, they said,

317
00:18:27,191 --> 00:18:29,071
Speaker 2: now I've experienced this, and I said, well, why didn't

318
00:18:29,111 --> 00:18:32,831
Speaker 2: you make a report? They say, because you know, we

319
00:18:32,911 --> 00:18:35,791
Speaker 2: don't believe that anything's going to change. So and so

320
00:18:35,911 --> 00:18:38,711
Speaker 2: plays golf with the CEO. So and so is the

321
00:18:38,791 --> 00:18:41,391
Speaker 2: rain maker. There's just not going to be any accountability.

322
00:18:41,551 --> 00:18:44,711
Speaker 2: So what is the point of raising a concern?

323
00:18:46,311 --> 00:18:49,151
Speaker 1: Proud, But we're doing a lot of this work, and

324
00:18:49,191 --> 00:18:53,671
Speaker 1: we already talked about the like the emotional cost of

325
00:18:53,751 --> 00:18:56,711
Speaker 1: reform work. What are some of the moments that have

326
00:18:56,871 --> 00:18:57,391
Speaker 1: changed you.

327
00:18:58,951 --> 00:19:03,271
Speaker 2: Well, I've already spoke about working at the front line

328
00:19:03,391 --> 00:19:06,711
Speaker 2: with I've already spoke about working at the front line

329
00:19:07,271 --> 00:19:12,191
Speaker 2: with asylum seekers and refugees and seeing that human suffering

330
00:19:12,311 --> 00:19:17,191
Speaker 2: at the hands of our government. Okay, so the government

331
00:19:17,271 --> 00:19:21,631
Speaker 2: talks about needing these you know, immigration policies to stop

332
00:19:21,671 --> 00:19:25,231
Speaker 2: the boats, you know, reduce you know, people dying, and say, look,

333
00:19:25,271 --> 00:19:28,751
Speaker 2: this isn't about stopping the boats, you know, ultimately, this

334
00:19:28,831 --> 00:19:32,351
Speaker 2: is about government flexing and showing that they're tough on

335
00:19:32,431 --> 00:19:33,751
Speaker 2: borders so they can win.

336
00:19:33,711 --> 00:19:35,751
Speaker 3: Votes at the election.

337
00:19:37,231 --> 00:19:42,551
Speaker 2: So that experience working in the asylum seeker refugee space

338
00:19:42,711 --> 00:19:46,191
Speaker 2: is definitely one of those moments that have shaped me.

339
00:19:47,191 --> 00:19:53,151
Speaker 2: Another moment is more personal. So, like many women, motherhood

340
00:19:53,311 --> 00:19:58,471
Speaker 2: changed me. But becoming a sole parent, that's really what

341
00:19:58,791 --> 00:19:59,511
Speaker 2: reshaped me.

342
00:20:00,071 --> 00:20:00,351
Speaker 1: You know.

343
00:20:00,751 --> 00:20:03,391
Speaker 2: It was at that time my son was really little,

344
00:20:04,031 --> 00:20:07,711
Speaker 2: he was almost still a newborn, when I really unexpectedly

345
00:20:08,111 --> 00:20:11,871
Speaker 2: found myself a sole parent and alone. And it felt

346
00:20:11,951 --> 00:20:15,911
Speaker 2: like the earth's axes had shifted, you know, the ground

347
00:20:16,031 --> 00:20:22,911
Speaker 2: was falling from under me. Everything I believed that I

348
00:20:23,031 --> 00:20:28,951
Speaker 2: knew had gone. So I had been programmed by birth

349
00:20:28,991 --> 00:20:34,071
Speaker 2: in my culture that in life you have one very

350
00:20:34,111 --> 00:20:38,111
Speaker 2: well defined trajectory. So you go to school, you do

351
00:20:38,231 --> 00:20:43,631
Speaker 2: really well. You go to university, you study ideally medicine

352
00:20:44,031 --> 00:20:48,111
Speaker 2: if not engineering hear yes, If not, then you do law.

353
00:20:49,151 --> 00:20:51,711
Speaker 2: Then you get a good job, and then you get married,

354
00:20:52,631 --> 00:20:54,791
Speaker 2: and then as quickly as possible, you have.

355
00:20:54,791 --> 00:20:56,351
Speaker 1: A child and live happily.

356
00:20:56,391 --> 00:20:59,431
Speaker 2: Ever aftern you have to have more children, more than one.

357
00:20:59,431 --> 00:21:03,751
Speaker 2: And the key is, no matter what you do, you

358
00:21:03,871 --> 00:21:08,391
Speaker 2: not get divorced. Yes, okay, and that is shame. Yes

359
00:21:08,671 --> 00:21:14,071
Speaker 2: to your family. It brings embarrassment. And that's what happened

360
00:21:14,431 --> 00:21:19,751
Speaker 2: to me, And so very quickly I had to recalibrate

361
00:21:20,191 --> 00:21:25,271
Speaker 2: my life. I had to move onto a very unfamiliar

362
00:21:25,511 --> 00:21:30,551
Speaker 2: path away from this South Asian picket fence ideal that

363
00:21:30,751 --> 00:21:34,311
Speaker 2: I had grown up to believe, and so I had

364
00:21:34,391 --> 00:21:39,391
Speaker 2: to leave behind who I was, but I grew into

365
00:21:39,471 --> 00:21:47,591
Speaker 2: someone who more stronger, who's more softer and fiercely independent,

366
00:21:48,711 --> 00:21:52,271
Speaker 2: with more certainty of what truly matters in life.

367
00:21:52,431 --> 00:21:54,791
Speaker 1: I love this and I know Prava. We are launching

368
00:21:54,791 --> 00:21:59,191
Speaker 1: a podcast together. It's called Culture Capital, and we're going

369
00:21:59,231 --> 00:22:04,311
Speaker 1: to bring more of your experiences and you're kind of background,

370
00:22:04,591 --> 00:22:08,311
Speaker 1: especially as a human rights lawyer, and a lot of

371
00:22:08,351 --> 00:22:11,671
Speaker 1: the work that you've done with reforms and also the

372
00:22:11,751 --> 00:22:16,151
Speaker 1: respect at work. You've got this new tech little platform

373
00:22:16,671 --> 00:22:20,911
Speaker 1: that organizations can reach out to you and start using

374
00:22:20,951 --> 00:22:28,031
Speaker 1: this platform around people anonymously lodging complaints. Can you quickly

375
00:22:28,071 --> 00:22:28,871
Speaker 1: share that with me?

376
00:22:29,151 --> 00:22:29,911
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

377
00:22:29,951 --> 00:22:32,671
Speaker 2: Look like I've mentioned, one of the biggest challenges for

378
00:22:32,791 --> 00:22:37,951
Speaker 2: workplaces when it comes to improving their workplace culture is

379
00:22:38,271 --> 00:22:41,991
Speaker 2: addressing the reality that most people don't speak out when

380
00:22:42,071 --> 00:22:44,831
Speaker 2: something bad happens in the workplace, and you can't address

381
00:22:44,831 --> 00:22:47,831
Speaker 2: what you don't know. So that's why my team and

382
00:22:47,911 --> 00:22:52,871
Speaker 2: I have developed a global first Trauma informed culturally safe

383
00:22:53,271 --> 00:22:58,151
Speaker 2: reporting and support platform that organizations can sign up to,

384
00:22:58,391 --> 00:23:03,831
Speaker 2: and that way their workers have a trusted, independent pathway

385
00:23:03,871 --> 00:23:07,351
Speaker 2: to raise concerns early when they arise in the workplace,

386
00:23:07,431 --> 00:23:12,111
Speaker 2: and that way employers they can understand what's happening. They

387
00:23:12,111 --> 00:23:15,671
Speaker 2: can nip things in the butt, address issues early and

388
00:23:15,871 --> 00:23:20,431
Speaker 2: ultimately mitigate risks and avoid all the nastiness that happens

389
00:23:21,031 --> 00:23:22,991
Speaker 2: when these sorts of problems escalate.

390
00:23:23,311 --> 00:23:27,591
Speaker 1: Exactly, so, you've got to elevate consulting partners and you're

391
00:23:28,031 --> 00:23:32,871
Speaker 1: out there as a consultant working with organizations. What does

392
00:23:32,911 --> 00:23:35,791
Speaker 1: progress look like to you now, because you've been doing

393
00:23:35,791 --> 00:23:38,551
Speaker 1: this for quite some time, What does progress look like?

394
00:23:38,911 --> 00:23:45,391
Speaker 2: Progress is when all workers, regardless of their background, regardless

395
00:23:45,471 --> 00:23:50,351
Speaker 2: of their identity, can come to work, bring their whole

396
00:23:50,431 --> 00:23:56,831
Speaker 2: cells and truly thrive. There's a lot of narrative around this,

397
00:23:57,071 --> 00:24:01,111
Speaker 2: there's a lot of buzzwords being thrown around. But when

398
00:24:01,151 --> 00:24:06,591
Speaker 2: we can see this truly felt in practice, that's when

399
00:24:06,911 --> 00:24:08,071
Speaker 2: they'll be progress.

400
00:24:08,311 --> 00:24:10,511
Speaker 1: If there's one thing you want listeners to carry with

401
00:24:10,591 --> 00:24:12,911
Speaker 1: them after hearing this yarn, what is it?

402
00:24:13,231 --> 00:24:18,111
Speaker 2: If there's one thing I would say, don't wait till

403
00:24:18,151 --> 00:24:23,551
Speaker 2: you're ready to back yourself, whether it's applying for a job,

404
00:24:24,471 --> 00:24:28,871
Speaker 2: whether it's leaving a relationship, whether it's starting.

405
00:24:28,471 --> 00:24:29,311
Speaker 3: Your own business.

406
00:24:29,431 --> 00:24:33,311
Speaker 2: Like you and I, Mara, just go for it because

407
00:24:33,311 --> 00:24:38,351
Speaker 2: it's only in those moments of uncertainty and risk where

408
00:24:38,391 --> 00:24:44,791
Speaker 2: we really see ourselves grow. So remember, just like diamonds ow,

409
00:24:44,911 --> 00:24:50,191
Speaker 2: brilliance is revealed under pressure. So step into your power

410
00:24:50,351 --> 00:24:52,951
Speaker 2: and just go for it. Something else, Mara. I know

411
00:24:53,031 --> 00:24:55,471
Speaker 2: people read my bio and they're like, wow, you know

412
00:24:55,511 --> 00:24:57,671
Speaker 2: you've give a cheap so much on you know, on paper,

413
00:24:58,551 --> 00:25:02,151
Speaker 2: there is nothing special about me. I'm not the smartest

414
00:25:02,191 --> 00:25:04,271
Speaker 2: in the room, you know, I'm not the lad in

415
00:25:04,311 --> 00:25:08,471
Speaker 2: the room. But I will bet my bottom dollar I

416
00:25:08,511 --> 00:25:11,871
Speaker 2: am the most tenacious person. I do not give up.

417
00:25:11,991 --> 00:25:15,231
Speaker 2: I will just keep going. And that is something everyone

418
00:25:15,471 --> 00:25:17,831
Speaker 2: can achieve, that sense of tenacity.

419
00:25:18,071 --> 00:25:24,031
Speaker 1: I love that. Well, Prava, It's been an absolute pleasure

420
00:25:24,671 --> 00:25:27,351
Speaker 1: to just have you on the podcast, even if it's

421
00:25:27,351 --> 00:25:30,231
Speaker 1: for a little bit of time, to especially for my

422
00:25:30,751 --> 00:25:34,431
Speaker 1: listeners in particular, to know that you exist and you

423
00:25:34,631 --> 00:25:38,231
Speaker 1: are seeen as a leader in this area, especially when

424
00:25:38,231 --> 00:25:42,551
Speaker 1: it comes to workplace culture respect at work. Thank you

425
00:25:42,591 --> 00:25:44,591
Speaker 1: for coming on the Black Magical and Podcast.

426
00:25:44,951 --> 00:25:47,111
Speaker 3: Thank you too, deadly look.

427
00:25:47,431 --> 00:25:50,591
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope you've

428
00:25:50,671 --> 00:25:52,311
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode Until next time.

429
00:25:52,351 --> 00:25:56,351
Speaker 4: By for now, you've been listening to Black Magic Woman

430
00:25:56,431 --> 00:25:59,311
Speaker 4: with Mondanara Bails, a space for truth telling, a lived

431
00:25:59,311 --> 00:26:03,791
Speaker 4: experience elevating powerful stories grounded in culture and community. For

432
00:26:03,791 --> 00:26:07,791
Speaker 4: more episodes and resources, visit blackmagicwoman dot com dot au.

433
00:26:08,031 --> 00:26:10,151
Speaker 4: Blackmagic Woman is produced by Black Cast