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Speaker 1: We know that as of Monday, the sales, supply, manufacture, importation,

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Speaker 1: and commercial possession of non therapeutic vapes became illegal.

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Speaker 2: Now the only place that someone's going to be able.

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Speaker 1: To legally buy a vape is reportedly from a pharmacy

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Speaker 1: with a prescription. From what I can gather, under the

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Speaker 1: new rules, vapes must be therapeutic, they must have plane

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Speaker 1: packaging and flavors, and to be limited to mint, menthol

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Speaker 1: and tobacco. It is all part of a real crackdown

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Speaker 1: on vapes, and I guess really trying to not make

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Speaker 1: them so accessible to young people. But from October one,

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Speaker 1: those vapes are going to be rescheduled so that only

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Speaker 1: people under eighteen will require a prescription to get one,

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Speaker 1: but adults are going to be able to get one

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Speaker 1: over the counter after speaking with their pharmacist. The rest

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Speaker 1: of the rules are going to remain the same from

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Speaker 1: what I can gather, but joining us on the line

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Speaker 1: right now to hopefully shed a bit of light and

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Speaker 1: give us their feedback on these changes. Pharmacy Guild Ntient

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Speaker 1: Peter Hatswell. Good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Peter, good morning. Thank you so much for your time, Peter.

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Speaker 2: This is all a bit confusing.

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Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say at the moment when

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Speaker 1: it comes to the purchasing of vapes, how are you

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Speaker 1: guys feeling how pharmacists feeling at the moment.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of I guess the preparation that

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Speaker 3: we're a bit concerned that, you know, just basically pushing

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Speaker 3: the whole va market onto pharmacy as the regulator and

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Speaker 3: controller of the sales. It's a bit of a scare.

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Speaker 3: Some people are worried about the security aspect of it,

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Speaker 3: what kind of people are going to be coming in

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Speaker 3: the regulation. So, I mean it all came out very quickly,

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Speaker 3: and we were giving almost no notice that it was

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Speaker 3: going to happen, and we just really would have would

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Speaker 3: liked to have been involved in the conversation before anything

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Speaker 3: was rolled out, but it just happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well this is the thing.

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Speaker 1: It does feel as though it's you know, politicians sort

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Speaker 1: of making these new rules and regulations without potentially consulting

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Speaker 1: industry in the best way that they could have. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's how it feels from an outsider's perspective.

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Speaker 2: Is that how you guys feel?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely this, Yeah, unilateral rules involving entire industry groups without consultation,

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Speaker 3: and so basically with some aim in mind and not

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Speaker 3: really I guess, you know, checking to see whether the

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Speaker 3: industry thinks that it's going to be an effective way

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Speaker 3: of moving forward. So yeah, we're all a bit worried

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Speaker 3: about what lies ahead.

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Speaker 1: So from your perspective, what you know, what are the

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Speaker 1: rules that are in place from will last Monday.

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Speaker 3: Basically, well, the rules are that the vapes will become

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Speaker 3: prescription only, so they can't be sold legally anywhere else

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Speaker 3: other than a pharmacy, and they have to be through

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Speaker 3: your doctor, get a prescription, go to your pharmacy, and

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Speaker 3: then get that prescription filled. I think the regulations also

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Speaker 3: involved the changing of vapes to plane packaging and unflavored,

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Speaker 3: so I'm not sure how long that will take to happen. So,

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Speaker 3: I mean it maybe a while before pharmacists even have

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Speaker 3: stock that they're able to sell. And then as of

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Speaker 3: the first of October later in this year, they get

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Speaker 3: down regulated from S four the scriptured only down to

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Speaker 3: S three, which is with the involvement of a pharmacist

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Speaker 3: over's counter.

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Speaker 1: Right, So at this point in time, anybody who wants

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Speaker 1: to buy vapes now needs a prescription, correct, but then

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Speaker 1: as of October it will only be those under the

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Speaker 1: age of eighteen.

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Speaker 3: Is that right over? Over the goodness?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was all like this is the thing.

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Speaker 1: I think people are finding it all very confusing, and

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Speaker 1: I guess the aim here is to try to make

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Speaker 1: sure that these vapes aren't accessible to young people. But

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Speaker 1: the concern is that then pharmacists might be targeted, that

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Speaker 1: it may put undue pressure on you guys.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, insurance have already from the day this thing was announced,

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Speaker 3: the insurance companies that deal with pharmacies have indicated they

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Speaker 3: are thinking that they might need to increase insurance rates

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Speaker 3: because the possibility of damage to pharmacies, ram rating, break

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Speaker 3: ins hold ups, whatever you like to say, it can increase,

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Speaker 3: and so claims are going to increase, and of course

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Speaker 3: that means insurance will increase. So I mean, and you know,

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Speaker 3: obviously the dark side of that is what about the

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Speaker 3: poor pharmacies that do have these things happen, particularly you know,

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Speaker 3: people coming in and threatening. That's going to be you know,

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Speaker 3: you're going to get all sorts of psychological trauma from that,

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Speaker 3: or it's not worse.

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Speaker 2: Who knows, Peter, how is.

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Speaker 1: That sort of making you and other pharmacists here in

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory feeling at these points.

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Speaker 3: Say instead, at the start, we're all very concerned of

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Speaker 3: what lies ahead and what sort of extra security measures

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Speaker 3: we might have to put in place to try and

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Speaker 3: keep under control. Well possibly even you know, some pharmacies

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Speaker 3: may say I'm just don't want to do this selling

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Speaker 3: a product that's you know, has no registration with TJA,

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Speaker 3: is not even indicated in any documentation or trial for

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Speaker 3: nicotine cessation, and we're having to sell this thing that

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Speaker 3: has no medical value and that is a highly addictive drug.

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Speaker 3: It's just against everything that we stand for and carries

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Speaker 3: huge risk with it.

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Speaker 1: Peter, there's still people listening this morning who are feeling

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Speaker 1: quite confused. I know, we've got a couple of messages

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Speaker 1: coming through saying, so, Katie, what exactly is the process.

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Speaker 2: Like right now?

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Speaker 1: So is it still a situation that people go into

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Speaker 1: like their local vape store at the moment to get

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Speaker 1: vapes or I don't know whether you're able to sort

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Speaker 1: of shed a bit of clarity for us, Peter.

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Speaker 3: Legally, no vape store, no vape store can can legally

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Speaker 3: sell vapes anymore. It's now as of the first of July,

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Speaker 3: it is illegal. So vape stores are reports are that

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Speaker 3: bape stores are closing down all over Australia. What they

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Speaker 3: do with whatever stock they have is a mystery. That's

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Speaker 3: you know, they're basically now holding stock that is unsailable,

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Speaker 3: So maybe that's going to end up on the black market.

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Speaker 3: I have no idea that. You know, that's another thing

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Speaker 3: that maybe the government could have considered. And yeah, so

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Speaker 3: in order to get a vape now, a nicotine containing dape, say,

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Speaker 3: they have to go to their doctor and get a prescription,

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Speaker 3: and you know, and those fires are unaware they're supposed

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Speaker 3: to only sell it for nicotine cessation when there isn't

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Speaker 3: actually any guidelines for the use of vapes in nicotine cessation.

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Speaker 1: And so then from your perspectives, are pharmacies sort of

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Speaker 1: stopped and ready to go at the moment or.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, I'm not aware that I haven't actually

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Speaker 3: checked to see the last I checked, nobody has anything

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Speaker 3: ready to go. And like I said that, they've mandated

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Speaker 3: a plane packaging with no flavors and I'm not even

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Speaker 3: aware that that's available.

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Speaker 2: It all just seems very confusing to me.

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Speaker 1: At the moment, So I can't imagine how you guys

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Speaker 1: are feeling when you're actually then expected to be the

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Speaker 1: ones that is sort of implementing these changes once they

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Speaker 1: come into place, and very reluctantly, so you know, from

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Speaker 1: the sounds of it, it's not actually something that pharmacists

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Speaker 1: want to be doing.

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Speaker 3: We didn't want this. We'd never asked for vapes to

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Speaker 3: be you know, sent through the sold through pharmacies or

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Speaker 3: controlled through pharmacies. We've never asked for vapes, you know,

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Speaker 3: to be involved at all. But you know, we if

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Speaker 3: I mean, I can still see a way forward, but

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Speaker 3: we need to be consulted about this. We need to

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Speaker 3: work out a plan how we can effectively manage states

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Speaker 3: and you know, put in the sort of security we're

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Speaker 3: going to need on through prescriptions and that you should

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Speaker 3: have waited until there was plane packaging and zero flavored

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Speaker 3: vapes that were readily available, and there should have been

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Speaker 3: sort of a time frame for bake stores to you know,

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Speaker 3: I guess sell through, so they had time to get

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Speaker 3: rid of their stock because that stock will end up

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Speaker 3: going to somebody. Yep, you know, that's that's that's just

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Speaker 3: the reality of things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, this is the thing. Then it's a concern

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Speaker 2: does it end up on the black market? What happens?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 1: And I would imagine that there's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: that are that are kind of wondering what happens with

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Speaker 1: them at this point if they feel as though they've

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Speaker 1: got an addiction.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, how many are going to be pushed back,

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Speaker 3: you know, back or for the first time onto cigarettes

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Speaker 3: because that's the that's the way to get nicotine and

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Speaker 3: they aren't a regulated product. They may cost a lot

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Speaker 3: of money, but any you can buy them, and of

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Speaker 3: course there's a restriction on age, but you know that's

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Speaker 3: that's there's so much control you can do with that.

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Speaker 3: So is this whole idea of nicotine cessation just going

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Speaker 3: to end up with a whole host of people then

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Speaker 3: on cigarettes? Of course, the health consequences as a result, Like.

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Speaker 1: Do you foresee as well, Peter, do you like do

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Speaker 1: you think that you're going to end up in a

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Speaker 1: situation because we know that a lot of young people

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Speaker 1: do try to get their hands on vapes, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like that's the biggest concern at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: If an adult is making an educated decision that they

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Speaker 1: want to vape, that's one thing. But when you've got

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Speaker 1: kids that are sort of thirteen, fourteen, fifteen in some instances,

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Speaker 1: I know even here in the Northern Territory that there's

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Speaker 1: been reports of kids as young as sort of eleven

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Speaker 1: and twelve trying vaping. You know, do you think that

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Speaker 1: it's going to make any difference these changes when it

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Speaker 1: comes to young people accessing vapes?

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Speaker 3: It's hard to say. You know, cigarettes are always the

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Speaker 3: big fallback, and if a child is addicted, then they're

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Speaker 3: going to have that tremendous desire to sort of continue

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Speaker 3: the addiction. They're not you know, they're not responsible enough

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Speaker 3: or you know, able to sort of make those decisions

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Speaker 3: about their own health. They probably don't have that in mind.

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Speaker 3: Well it I think, Yeah, I don't know, really, I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure how this is going to go. I think

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Speaker 3: there's just an awful lot of questions that they are

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Speaker 3: yet to be answered about what happens to those kids

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Speaker 3: and what's the black market? Is the black market going

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Speaker 3: to feel that the gap? Is it going to end

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Speaker 3: up being just creating like you know, this is a

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Speaker 3: prohibition that is going to end up with sorts of

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Speaker 3: illegal activities generated as a result. It's a tough question,

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Speaker 3: I think, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And in terms of you know, we've spoken about the

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Speaker 1: possibility of insurance going up and potentially pharmacies being targeted

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Speaker 1: as a result of, you know, having vapes inside those buildings.

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Speaker 1: What about though, when you talk about it from a

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Speaker 1: real sort of customer service kind of perspective, do you

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Speaker 1: feel as though it's going to put additional pressure on

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Speaker 1: pharmacists and on those working in our chemists and pharmacies

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Speaker 1: having an increased number of people sort of coming in

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Speaker 1: wanting to purchase those vapes and having to then consult

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Speaker 1: with them about whether they're able to access them or not.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. You know, if something has gone to S three

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Speaker 3: which requires a pharmacist intervention, and we have a large

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Speaker 3: cohort of people that want vapes, even if they have

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Speaker 3: gone plane packaging at whatever, they're going to need to

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Speaker 3: be consulted and so that's going to take time for

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Speaker 3: the pharmacist and they're already very you know, there's a

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Speaker 3: lack of pharmacists out in the marketplace now, so every

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Speaker 3: store is struggling to find staff to run the store,

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Speaker 3: and this is going to just increase that demand on

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Speaker 3: both the staff who are probably going to need to

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Speaker 3: do that initial conversation, and so you need to talk

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Speaker 3: to a pharmacist, so can you wait? And then of

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Speaker 3: course the pharmacist needs to find time and that's going

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Speaker 3: to be pulling them away from their essential work with

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Speaker 3: other things. So who has to wait in order for

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Speaker 3: the people who require vapes to be seen. It's going

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Speaker 3: to create delays and delays in their normal operations of

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Speaker 3: prescriptions and seeing people with you know, many other health

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Speaker 3: issues diarrhea of whatever that they need to see a

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Speaker 3: pharmacist for, and now vapes are going to just add

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Speaker 3: to that load.

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Speaker 2: Well, Peter, it does sound like it is.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of very confusing at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: You know, decision's kind of been lumped upon the pharmacists

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Speaker 1: from what I can gather and from what I'm hearing

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Speaker 1: this morning, and you know, the potential side effect in

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Speaker 1: terms of not only in your insurance is going up,

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Speaker 1: but potentially ending up with other scenarios that you're going

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Speaker 1: to have to deal with.

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Speaker 2: It does sound like it's going to be tough for

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Speaker 2: you guys.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think that you know, as to say that

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Speaker 3: every pharmacy and every pharmacist I know of is concerned

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Speaker 3: of what goes ahead, what lies ahead with the you know,

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Speaker 3: the workload, the insurance, the threatened threnning customers and whatever.

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Speaker 3: I think the government really should consider unwinding this whole

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Speaker 3: thing and in going back to the drawing board, involving

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Speaker 3: pharmacy and pharmacy industry groups to talk about how we

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Speaker 3: could do this property. I think there's an answer working

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Speaker 3: to go forward, but we need to be involved in

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Speaker 3: the conversation. We need to figure out how to slow

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Speaker 3: down this whole vaping problem and be able to provide

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Speaker 3: people with a sort of adequate way forwards if they want

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Speaker 3: to get out to get off nicotine. There are a

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Speaker 3: lot of products already available that are indicated to nicotine

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Speaker 3: cessation and readily available over the counter, and you know

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Speaker 3: that should be really where we're going. And then they're

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Speaker 3: not so quite sought afterwards. Bapes. Bapes have the same

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Speaker 3: kind of potential for addiction of cigarettes, and you know

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Speaker 3: they're highly damaging too, so we shouldn't be going down

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Speaker 3: a staff at all.

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Speaker 1: Well, Pharmacy Guild into present. Peter Hatswell, I really appreciate

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Speaker 1: your time this morning. Thank you very much. For having

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Speaker 1: a chat with us and and we'll trying to hopefully

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Speaker 1: help us all understand what the go is a little

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Speaker 1: bit a.

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Speaker 2: Little bit more easily.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, thank you, thank you for having.

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Speaker 2: Me on, thank you, thanks for your time this morning.

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Speaker 3: Thank you