1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,680
Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,

2
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:06,880
Speaker 1: now it makes sense.

3
00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,599
Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

4
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,480
Speaker 2: the nineteenth of September. I'm zara, i'm emma. The Federal

5
00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,200
Speaker 2: government has introduced a new piece of legislation that's aiming

6
00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,040
Speaker 2: to crack down on the spread of miss and disinformation.

7
00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,960
Speaker 2: It's an attempt to regulate false information from spreading in

8
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,839
Speaker 2: the online world and is actually the second time that

9
00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,840
Speaker 2: the government has had a go at this specific issue.

10
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,040
Speaker 2: Not everyone is pleased with the new legislation, though, with

11
00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,000
Speaker 2: critics arguing the bill could override free speech principles here

12
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,160
Speaker 2: in Australia. In today's deep Dive, we're going to explain

13
00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 2: the history of this legislation, what the latest bill means,

14
00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,280
Speaker 2: and why it's being criticized. Before that, m what's making headlines.

15
00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,880
Speaker 3: Thousands of construction workers and tradees have protested across Sydney

16
00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,280
Speaker 3: and Melbourne in support of imbattled construction union, the CFMEU.

17
00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,360
Speaker 3: Yesterday's demonstrations marked the second wave of protests in recent weeks.

18
00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,880
Speaker 3: It comes after the Federal government forced the CFMEU into

19
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,760
Speaker 3: administration over its alleged ties to organized crime and biking gangs.

20
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,120
Speaker 3: The protests were organized by the Electrical Trade Union. It's

21
00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,319
Speaker 3: accused the government of not following proper legal processes in

22
00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,840
Speaker 3: its action against the CFMEU, which it argues sets a

23
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,640
Speaker 3: scary precedent for the civil rights of all workers. Some

24
00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,280
Speaker 3: demonstrators have threatened to escalate the fight against changes to

25
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,360
Speaker 3: the CFMEU with a three day workstopage.

26
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,160
Speaker 2: Federal police have made dozens of arrests in relation to

27
00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,640
Speaker 2: an alleged secret criminal app. The AFP investigation centered on

28
00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,000
Speaker 2: the use of an encrypted messaging network called Ghost for

29
00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,400
Speaker 2: illegal activity. A thirty two year old Sydney man believed

30
00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,280
Speaker 2: to be the so called mastermind of Ghost, is one

31
00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,920
Speaker 2: of thirty eight people who have been arrested following a

32
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,680
Speaker 2: national operation. The AFP said the app was being used

33
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,760
Speaker 2: by outlaw biki gangs and international crime syndicates to traffic,

34
00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 2: illicit drugs, launder money, order killings and threatened serious violence.

35
00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,639
Speaker 2: Investigators said that intervened to prevent serious harm against around

36
00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,000
Speaker 2: fifty people, and that more Australian and international arrests were

37
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:27,519
Speaker 2: expected over the coming days.

38
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,360
Speaker 3: The death toll from a super typhoon in Southeast Asia

39
00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,360
Speaker 3: has now surpassed five hundred Typhoon Yaggi is one of

40
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,520
Speaker 3: the most powerful storms to hit the region in decades.

41
00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,200
Speaker 3: It's caused severe flooding, landslides, and widespread damage across parts

42
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,840
Speaker 3: of Myanmar, Vietnam, the Philippines, Lao, Thailand, and China. Millions

43
00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,840
Speaker 3: of people have been displaced since Yaggi made landfall in

44
00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,560
Speaker 3: the Philippines on the second of September. UNICEF said it's

45
00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:03,000
Speaker 3: compromised nearly six million children access to clean water, education, healthcare,

46
00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:04,160
Speaker 3: food and shelter.

47
00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,960
Speaker 2: And In today's good news, the ozone layer appears to

48
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,720
Speaker 2: be on track for a full recovery in the next

49
00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:18,560
Speaker 2: few decades. The World Meteorological Organization, or the WMO, has

50
00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,560
Speaker 2: provided an update on the status of the ozone, which

51
00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,160
Speaker 2: absorbs most of the Sun's UV radiation, helping to shield

52
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,320
Speaker 2: the Earth from the harmful rays. Holes in the ozone

53
00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,239
Speaker 2: layer started appearing in nineteen eighty, but the WMO now

54
00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,800
Speaker 2: says it's on track for a full repair by twenty

55
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,800
Speaker 2: forty five. It says this recovery is thanks to sustainability

56
00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,440
Speaker 2: efforts and the reduced use of synthetic climate polluting gases.

57
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 2: We'll be right back with today's deep dive after a

58
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:46,800
Speaker 2: quick note from our sponsor.

59
00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,200
Speaker 3: Okay so Zara, We know that the government has moved

60
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,840
Speaker 3: in recent weeks to crack down on miss and disinformation.

61
00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,520
Speaker 3: This conversation around overhauling and regulating social media is really

62
00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,560
Speaker 3: front and center at the moment. But I want you

63
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,360
Speaker 3: to set the stage for me specifically on this idea

64
00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,680
Speaker 3: of miss and disinformation. What is the problem the government's

65
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:11,600
Speaker 3: trying to solve here.

66
00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a good question because,

67
00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,679
Speaker 2: as you said, there's so many different laws being floated

68
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,080
Speaker 2: at the moment, and they can kind of all start

69
00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,360
Speaker 2: to get a bit confusing. Yeah, but today we're talking

70
00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,640
Speaker 2: about miss and disinformation, and if you haven't heard those

71
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,400
Speaker 2: terms before, they do mean different things. So I think

72
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,440
Speaker 2: a good starting point is to just break down those terms. So,

73
00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 2: misinformation is the spreading of false information unknowingly, essentially, So

74
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,600
Speaker 2: it's someone who believes that what they're sharing is correct

75
00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,800
Speaker 2: but it isn't, and they post something to Facebook that

76
00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,159
Speaker 2: they heard, you know, their uncle say at a Christmas dinner,

77
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:50,040
Speaker 2: and that's how that information spreads. That is different from disinformation,

78
00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:54,360
Speaker 2: which is when someone knowingly spreads false information. So those

79
00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,720
Speaker 2: are the differences between miss and disinformation, and that's really

80
00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,360
Speaker 2: what the government is trying to crack down on. They're

81
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,599
Speaker 2: trying to say, this is spreading so wildly online and

82
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 2: especially on social media, we need to come in and

83
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 2: try to regulate it in some way. They had some

84
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,599
Speaker 2: polling when they announced their legislation from the Australian Media

85
00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,960
Speaker 2: Literacy Alliance that said that eighty percent of Australians said

86
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,680
Speaker 2: the spread of misinformation on social media needed to be addressed.

87
00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,920
Speaker 2: And I think that was what really was pushing this move,

88
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,720
Speaker 2: that they think that Ozzie's want to see this crackdown

89
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,400
Speaker 2: and they want to meet them there.

90
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,039
Speaker 3: So, like we said, there is this conversation at the

91
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,680
Speaker 3: moment around social media regulations and making the Internet a

92
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,200
Speaker 3: safer place, but the issue specifically of missing disinformation isn't

93
00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,279
Speaker 3: really a new one. I feel like this conversation hit

94
00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:48,080
Speaker 3: the mainstream majorly in twenty sixteen jaring news. Yeah, the

95
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,719
Speaker 3: fake news era, the Donald Trump election campaign when he

96
00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:58,039
Speaker 3: first became president. So it's definitely been a present issue

97
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,279
Speaker 3: online for the better part of a Why are we

98
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:02,400
Speaker 3: talking about it now?

99
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,800
Speaker 2: Well, I mean now is not actually the first time

100
00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,360
Speaker 2: that we have had this conversation here in Australia, and

101
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:12,039
Speaker 2: that's because the Albanezy government actually introduced legislation last year

102
00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,039
Speaker 2: to address this very same issue. This is just the

103
00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,480
Speaker 2: second attempt at that legislation, and that's because last year

104
00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,320
Speaker 2: when they published the draft of what they wanted their

105
00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,440
Speaker 2: Misinformation Bill to look like, they got so much criticism.

106
00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,440
Speaker 2: So essentially what they did was they published a draft,

107
00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 2: they said this is what we want to do, this

108
00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:33,840
Speaker 2: is how we think it should look, and then they

109
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,200
Speaker 2: opened it up for public consultation, and public consultation just

110
00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,040
Speaker 2: means asking the public their opinions. I don't know if

111
00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,599
Speaker 2: they would live to regret that decision, but ultimately the

112
00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,839
Speaker 2: feedback was really strong, and I think if we go

113
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,279
Speaker 2: to the essence of that criticism, it was that the

114
00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,160
Speaker 2: legislation that the government had come to the table with

115
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:58,000
Speaker 2: had really broad definitions of what misinformation, disinformation and harm meant,

116
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,800
Speaker 2: and so there were concerns that that might create a

117
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,479
Speaker 2: bit of a slippery slope that if we aren't using

118
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,320
Speaker 2: specific examples, could that then infringe on free speech. If

119
00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,000
Speaker 2: one person says that something's misinformation, another person says that

120
00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,240
Speaker 2: it's the truth. Who's deciphering that? And so that was

121
00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,680
Speaker 2: really at the core there. And you know, we had

122
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,480
Speaker 2: so many people come out against that legislation. The Australian

123
00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,720
Speaker 2: Human Rights Commission did. They said that the terms in

124
00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 2: the legislation were broad and vague. They said that this

125
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,240
Speaker 2: risk enabling unpopular or controversial opinions or beliefs to be

126
00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 2: subjectively labeled as misinformation or disinformation and censored as a result.

127
00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,160
Speaker 2: So fairly big claims there. And I mean it wasn't

128
00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,760
Speaker 2: just the Human Rights Commission at the time. The Coalition

129
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,920
Speaker 2: was arguing the same point. They said the proposal will

130
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,080
Speaker 2: lead to digital companies self censoring the legitimately held views

131
00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,640
Speaker 2: of Aussie's to avoid the risk of massive fines. And

132
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,200
Speaker 2: so the government heard that and they were like, all right,

133
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,760
Speaker 2: we hear you, and they took that legislation away and

134
00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:58,559
Speaker 2: did some work.

135
00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 3: Okay, So pretty significant concerns that were raised by a

136
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:08,200
Speaker 3: spectrum of groups, sides of politics, advocacy groups. Is concerns

137
00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 3: around the broadness and the vagueness of the bill. What

138
00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,440
Speaker 3: did the government then go away and do with those arguments?

139
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,720
Speaker 3: What has it done to kind of shore up the

140
00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,920
Speaker 3: misinformation and disinformation approach.

141
00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they spent quite a bit of time on this.

142
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 2: As I said, last year was when we first saw

143
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,400
Speaker 2: that last bill. It was only last week that we

144
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,040
Speaker 2: then saw the second version of that, so they've had

145
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,080
Speaker 2: almost a year to be working on this. Here was

146
00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,480
Speaker 2: Communications Minister Michelle Roland introducing the legislation.

147
00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,199
Speaker 1: The top priority of the government is to keep its

148
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:45,000
Speaker 1: citizens safe. Doing nothing to protect Australians from seriously harmful

149
00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,000
Speaker 1: miss and disinformation online is simply not an option.

150
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,640
Speaker 3: So what is actually in this bill?

151
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,160
Speaker 2: I think that there are two main parts that we

152
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,240
Speaker 2: can talk about. The first is the responsibilities of the

153
00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,200
Speaker 2: digital platforms themselves, and then the second is the responsibility

154
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,840
Speaker 2: of Australia's Media regulator. And we'll go through one at

155
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,720
Speaker 2: a time. So the first is the responsibility of the

156
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,840
Speaker 2: digital platforms. So under this legislation, platforms would be required

157
00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,560
Speaker 2: to basically be very transparent about their policies, their strategies

158
00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,920
Speaker 2: and how they are dealing with miss and disinformation on

159
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,480
Speaker 2: their platforms. So they'd be required to publish publicly their

160
00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:30,320
Speaker 2: misinformation and disinformation policies, their risk management strategies and their

161
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,400
Speaker 2: media literacy plans. And I think that that's a really

162
00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,640
Speaker 2: interesting one. It's something we obviously talk a lot about

163
00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,880
Speaker 2: here at TDA, which is, you know, it's one thing

164
00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,000
Speaker 2: for a platform to say this is misinformation or disinformation.

165
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,440
Speaker 2: It's another for a user to be able to critically analyze.

166
00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,120
Speaker 3: Because a big part of misinformation, as you mentioned defining it,

167
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:56,280
Speaker 3: is about people mistakenly sharing information that is not true,

168
00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,200
Speaker 3: inaccurate content, but oftentimes they don't even know they're doing.

169
00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,920
Speaker 3: So how do we help users identify that kind of content?

170
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so that's really at the heart of the

171
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,440
Speaker 2: government's legislation. It's saying the onus is on the platforms

172
00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,520
Speaker 2: to come up with those media literacy plans that will

173
00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,480
Speaker 2: help to encourage more critical thinking among users. And I'd

174
00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,360
Speaker 2: never really seen that before. That's what the onus on

175
00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,200
Speaker 2: the platforms is. And then on the other side, there's

176
00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,720
Speaker 2: quite a bit in the legislation about giving Australia's media

177
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,400
Speaker 2: regulator more powers and so that's about, you know, being

178
00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,920
Speaker 2: able to ensure that AKMA, which is the Australian Communications

179
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,720
Speaker 2: and Media Authority, they have the tools and the skills

180
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:45,080
Speaker 2: necessary to closely monitor the digital platforms to suggest if

181
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,560
Speaker 2: those platforms are abiding or not abiding by the rules,

182
00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,880
Speaker 2: and also to issue fines to companies if they find

183
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:53,000
Speaker 2: out that they're not complying.

184
00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,160
Speaker 3: So AKMA would act as this watchdog or is a

185
00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,959
Speaker 3: watchdog on the government's behalf, just kind of checking in

186
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,319
Speaker 3: and seeing if best practices are being upheld and then

187
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:05,880
Speaker 3: taking action if they are not.

188
00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,560
Speaker 2: Exactly and I think it's important to note though, that

189
00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,720
Speaker 2: AKMA won't have the authority to take down individual pieces

190
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,640
Speaker 2: of content. This is something that's come up before. You know,

191
00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,280
Speaker 2: we've spoken on this part about Elon Musk and X

192
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,520
Speaker 2: and the E Safety Commissioner has issued takedown notices in

193
00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,320
Speaker 2: that scenario. What those powers would actually look like in

194
00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,600
Speaker 2: reality would depend on, I guess a the compliance of

195
00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,240
Speaker 2: the platforms themselves. So the idea is that AKMA shouldn't

196
00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,160
Speaker 2: have to intervene if we are seeing compliance, but I think,

197
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,160
Speaker 2: you know, the reality is that that's always going to

198
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,920
Speaker 2: be a difficult thing, and so we'd see AKMA then

199
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 2: stepping in as kind of the government's ear to the

200
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,880
Speaker 2: ground per se and trying to limit the missing disinformation

201
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,400
Speaker 2: they're seeing on those platforms.

202
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,400
Speaker 3: The one question that isn't kind of immediately answered for

203
00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,320
Speaker 3: me in terms of the government going away reconsider this

204
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 3: legislation is concern around those vague definitions of what misinformation, disinformation,

205
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,920
Speaker 3: and harm actually looks like. What constitutes a piece of

206
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,360
Speaker 3: content that takes one or some of those boxes. So

207
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,559
Speaker 3: what has changed in this updated version to address that issue?

208
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the way that they've addressed it is that

209
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:27,760
Speaker 2: they have defined misinformation or disinformation as something that's verifiably false, misleading,

210
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,960
Speaker 2: or deceptive and can contribute to serious harm. And so

211
00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,400
Speaker 2: it's there in serious harm that they've really nutted down

212
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,400
Speaker 2: the definition. And I'll just read you straight from the

213
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,960
Speaker 2: legislation how they define serious harm, because you know, even

214
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,120
Speaker 2: that is such a subjective term. What serious harm to

215
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,240
Speaker 2: me is absolutely not serious harm to you. But i'll

216
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,960
Speaker 2: read here from the act. It says serious harm is

217
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,240
Speaker 2: defined as harm to the operation of government or public health,

218
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,880
Speaker 2: the vilification of a group, physical injury, damaged to critical infrastructure,

219
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:00,800
Speaker 2: or imminent harm to the economy.

220
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:01,679
Speaker 3: Interesting.

221
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're saying that it's not so much about

222
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 2: defining what mis and disinformation are as much as defining

223
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,000
Speaker 2: what the effect on individuals, on groups, on government, on

224
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,640
Speaker 2: the economy actually looks. Like, in practice, I think that

225
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,160
Speaker 2: this would rub up against other pieces of legislation, you know,

226
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 2: like defining what vilification or hate speech looks like, but

227
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,480
Speaker 2: that's seemingly a matter for the government. Yeah.

228
00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,679
Speaker 3: I was going to say, obviously, this definition has come

229
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 3: from real examples or real world consequences of what harmful

230
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,200
Speaker 3: content online can do to an individual and a community

231
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,760
Speaker 3: in society. More broadly, a lot seems to be rooted

232
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:46,120
Speaker 3: in anti discrimination as well in public public safety. Yeah,

233
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,080
Speaker 3: which I think is obviously the answer to COVID.

234
00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:50,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

235
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,680
Speaker 3: So we've run through how the government wants to stop

236
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:58,559
Speaker 3: this spread of misinformation and disinformation online. We've got these

237
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,679
Speaker 3: things like media literas giving greater powers to regulatory bodies.

238
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 3: But what happens if, for example, a tech company doesn't

239
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,640
Speaker 3: want to play ball. We've seen this play out with

240
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,840
Speaker 3: that example so many honey safety, many many, many times.

241
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,760
Speaker 3: So what happens when platforms don't want to publish their

242
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,200
Speaker 3: media literacy strategies don't want to come to the table.

243
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,960
Speaker 3: We're talking about global Yeah, we're talking about bohemoths, global

244
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,600
Speaker 3: media platforms. What's the Australian government to them?

245
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,240
Speaker 2: I mean a bigger question, A podcast in and of itself.

246
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,120
Speaker 2: But the government has obviously planned for this hypothetical. As

247
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,960
Speaker 2: I said earlier, you know, no one is under any

248
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,600
Speaker 2: illusions that big tech is here to plague ball with

249
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,320
Speaker 2: the government whenever they wish. But the way that the

250
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,400
Speaker 2: government has figured out a penalty is that if a

251
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,120
Speaker 2: digital platform breaches this law, it could face penalties of

252
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,800
Speaker 2: up to five percent of its annual global revenue. Now

253
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,120
Speaker 2: I am enumerate, so I did not know that that

254
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 2: was a big deal. I saw that and I was like,

255
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:02,320
Speaker 2: that's a tiny percentage.

256
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,200
Speaker 3: Not when we're talking early in nonprofit correct.

257
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,600
Speaker 2: So I did the numbers on. I just took a

258
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,640
Speaker 2: random company. I took Meta just they're always front of mind.

259
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,040
Speaker 2: So if we use Meta as an example, it turned

260
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,480
Speaker 2: over one hundred and thirty four billion US dollars last year,

261
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:18,680
Speaker 2: mind blowing.

262
00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,840
Speaker 3: Hang on, sorry, one hundred and thirty four billion dollars.

263
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,520
Speaker 2: That is a lot so much money of money. I

264
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,080
Speaker 2: tell you what else is a lot of money? Five

265
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,880
Speaker 2: percent of that? So if and I'm just saying this

266
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,960
Speaker 2: is absolutely just a hypothetical, no one is insinuating there's

267
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,920
Speaker 2: been any wrongdoing from Meta. But if we were taking

268
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,080
Speaker 2: this hypothetical. One step further, if they breached this new

269
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 2: law after it had passed parliament, Meta would be looking

270
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,920
Speaker 2: at a six point seven billion US dollar fine from

271
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,440
Speaker 2: the Australian government. So that's the stick that the government

272
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 2: is saying they will use if Big Tech does not

273
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,119
Speaker 2: playball when it comes to this new legislation.

274
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this gets us into the territory that we

275
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,400
Speaker 3: have been discussing a lot lately, this idea of governments

276
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:08,600
Speaker 3: trying to regulate multinational companies. So exactly as we described

277
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 3: X is based in the US, if it's at war

278
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,480
Speaker 3: with an Australian lawmaker or the other example of X

279
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:21,000
Speaker 3: in Brazil recently, where we saw the platform being blocked

280
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,640
Speaker 3: in the country because it did not comply comply with

281
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,840
Speaker 3: regulatory standards. How has big Tech responded to these plans

282
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,080
Speaker 3: from the Australian government to limit missin disinformation on their platforms.

283
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,960
Speaker 2: I'm glad that you use the X example because anyone

284
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,880
Speaker 2: that clicked on this podcast will have seen Elon Musk

285
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 2: in the title, and that's because of all the tech

286
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 2: platform owners, he has come out the strongest, I think

287
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,800
Speaker 2: in news that will surprise nobody when we say to

288
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:48,560
Speaker 2: a strong opinion.

289
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,640
Speaker 3: We say, we're not sure if tech's going to play

290
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,080
Speaker 3: ball with the government's approach. What we really mean is

291
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,200
Speaker 3: x right exactly. I'm so honest.

292
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,600
Speaker 2: So shortly after this draft legislation was unveiled by the

293
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,560
Speaker 2: government and Elon Musk came out very strongly against the proposal.

294
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,120
Speaker 2: He labeled the Australian government as fascists in a one

295
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,720
Speaker 2: worded tweet that's strong yeah. Then days later he doubled down,

296
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,720
Speaker 2: saying far left fascists love censorship. And we know that

297
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,960
Speaker 2: he was talking there about the Australian government. The Labor

298
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,280
Speaker 2: Party is left of center. He's really drilled down in

299
00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:25,159
Speaker 2: his position against this legislation. Australian PM Anthony Albanesi has

300
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,359
Speaker 2: hit back at Elon Musk. He said that social media

301
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,040
Speaker 2: companies have a social responsibility and he said, and I

302
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,359
Speaker 2: quote here, if mister Musk doesn't understand that that says

303
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,600
Speaker 2: more about him than it does about my government. It's

304
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,000
Speaker 2: not just Anthony Albanesi that's had a lot to say

305
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,040
Speaker 2: within the government. I had to include this quote from

306
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,280
Speaker 2: Labor Minister Bill Shorten, who was of course retiring at

307
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,280
Speaker 2: the next election. He said, and I quote Elon Musk

308
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 2: has more positions on our free speech than the Karma Sutra.

309
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:54,360
Speaker 1: Wow.

310
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:55,919
Speaker 3: Bill Shorten had.

311
00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,679
Speaker 2: To explain what that meant in the office. That was

312
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,439
Speaker 2: a good day at work. But of course, you know,

313
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,479
Speaker 2: looking at this policy more generally, as we said at

314
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 2: the top of this podcast, it hasn't happened in a vacuum.

315
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,040
Speaker 2: It is very clear that the Albanese government is going

316
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,320
Speaker 2: pretty hard with kind of a suite of reforms across

317
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 2: the board on regulating social media and big tech in

318
00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,879
Speaker 2: the country. Just last week we spoke about a social

319
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,560
Speaker 2: media band for children. Then yesterday we had Instagram announced

320
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 2: that it's now introducing teen accounts, and you know, some

321
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,120
Speaker 2: are saying that perhaps that could be linked. And then

322
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 2: before that we've spoken about the options that the government's

323
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,560
Speaker 2: looking at to go back to Meta with because they

324
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 2: have refused to pay for news here. And so there

325
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,280
Speaker 2: are lots of kind of live debates about how the

326
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,359
Speaker 2: Australian government deals with these multinational companies who operate in

327
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,360
Speaker 2: so many jurisdictions but dictate so much of our lives.

328
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,520
Speaker 2: And that's a really big challenge that this government and

329
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,879
Speaker 2: any future governments really have on their hands.

330
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's amazing to kind of zoom out and consider

331
00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,960
Speaker 3: all of those very live issues, very hot button topics,

332
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,159
Speaker 3: playing out in the Australian landscape, and then considering that

333
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,560
Speaker 3: you know, all around the world these issues have been

334
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,880
Speaker 3: grappled with by governments and users everywhere. Back to specifically

335
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,800
Speaker 3: this legislation around miss and disinformation. We know what the

336
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,440
Speaker 3: government's position is, but what about the other side of politics.

337
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 3: Have we heard from the opposition?

338
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,280
Speaker 2: So the Coalition opposed the previous draft, the one that

339
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,760
Speaker 2: I was telling you about before at the time they

340
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,199
Speaker 2: said it would suppress legitimate free speech in Australia. And

341
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,960
Speaker 2: then speaking to the ABC after the introduction of this

342
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 2: new legislation, Shadow Communications Minister David Coleman said that if

343
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,120
Speaker 2: the new bill is anything like the last one, then

344
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 2: we will have a lot of problems. So it doesn't

345
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 2: seem like the coalitions necessarily on board with it, but

346
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 2: they did say that they were taking the time to

347
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,880
Speaker 2: go through it and understand what was included in it.

348
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 2: One of David Coleman's colleagues, Alex Antik, who's a Coalition senator, said,

349
00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,560
Speaker 2: and I quote, this will serve as a great big

350
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,400
Speaker 2: web over the top of free speech. He is naturally

351
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,840
Speaker 2: to the right of some of his colleagues, So I

352
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 2: don't know that that's necessarily the view of the whole party,

353
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 2: but we're getting a sense of where the Coalition might

354
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,240
Speaker 2: come down on this one in terms of other political parties.

355
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 2: The Greens spokesperson for Communications, Sarah Hanson Young, said it's

356
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 2: clear that the global tech giants are unwilling to act

357
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,720
Speaker 2: in the public interest without strong regulation and enforcement. She

358
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 2: did say that the Greens would make sure that the

359
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,360
Speaker 2: government's legislation was assessed through a Senate inquiry, so she's

360
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 2: saying that that they would refer it onto a committee

361
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 2: for greater kind of interrogation.

362
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,160
Speaker 3: But it sounds like the Greens are potentially more on

363
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,640
Speaker 3: board with these sorts of crackdowns for tech giants while

364
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 3: the Coalition reviews the legislation in its updated form. Zara,

365
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 3: thank you so much for taking us through that today.

366
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,480
Speaker 3: As we said, there are just so many conversations going

367
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,679
Speaker 3: on in this space. What's really helpful for us to

368
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,159
Speaker 3: be able to pause and look at something like this

369
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 3: a little more closely. As always, as these issues continue

370
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 3: to play out, we will continue to keep you updated

371
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,119
Speaker 3: on the Daily os. That's all we've got time for today.

372
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,159
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for tuning in. Don't forget to

373
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 3: follow or subscribe wherever you are listening to us or

374
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 3: watching us over on YouTube. We will be back with

375
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 3: another episode tomorrow. Until then, have a great day.

376
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 2: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

377
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 2: Bungelung Calcotin woman from Gadighl Country.

378
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 1: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

379
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,879
Speaker 1: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

380
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,280
Speaker 1: all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay

381
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 1: our respects to the first peoples of these countries, both

382
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:42,159
Speaker 1: past and present.