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Speaker 1: This is a podcast about failure with me. Lola Berry, author, nutritionist,

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Speaker 1: and yoga teacher, join me as we get to know

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Speaker 1: these guests and learn about how their failures have ultimately

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Speaker 1: shaped their dreams.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Fearlessly Failing with Lola Berry.

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Speaker 1: I am so excited about today's guest, David Gillespie. He's

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Speaker 1: been a longtime hero of mine since I reckon. It

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Speaker 1: was about oh seven or eight years ago. We toured together,

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Speaker 1: both being health authors, and he has a lot of books.

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Speaker 1: This guy's written a truckload of books, but he did

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Speaker 1: quite a lot on health, so sweet poison, toxic oils,

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Speaker 1: real food, all phenomenal books.

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Speaker 2: But we both toured together, and I remember on the.

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Speaker 1: First night of the tour, I was like, well, you're

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Speaker 1: my favorite because he's straight down the line, he's real,

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Speaker 1: he's honest. He's one of the smartest people I know,

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Speaker 1: and he's so willing to share his smarts. He's got

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Speaker 1: a brand new book out called Brain Reset.

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Speaker 2: Now. We got so.

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Speaker 1: Enthralled in combo that we've turned this episode into a

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Speaker 1: two part episode, so you're going to get part one today,

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of like the real health kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: We talk about another one of his great books called

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Speaker 1: Taming Toxic People. It's all about non criminal psychopaths and

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Speaker 1: what to do when you encounter them, so so so fascinating.

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Speaker 1: The truth is we've probably all got a psychopath in

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Speaker 1: our lives and I just deep dive on that. So

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Speaker 1: we've had to do this in two parts, So part

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Speaker 1: one today, Part two next Monday, and part two is

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Speaker 1: when we really get into his new book, Brain Reset.

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Speaker 1: It's all about addiction, depression, anxiety and really kind of

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Speaker 1: like how our brain works. So interesting. I'm a megafan

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Speaker 1: of David Gillespie, and you know what, at the end

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Speaker 1: of this chat, I think you will be too.

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Speaker 2: Big love David Gillespie.

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Speaker 1: It's an honor, my friend, to have you on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: How long have we been talking about it? A few

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Speaker 1: months now?

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Speaker 3: Ah, at least at least.

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Speaker 2: Right since I moved to Byron.

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Speaker 1: You were the top of my I was like, I've

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Speaker 1: got to get to Brisy. I've got and I've made

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Speaker 1: it here a three hour journey.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I made.

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Speaker 3: It in a thunderstorm.

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Speaker 2: This is true. So for people listening, you are a lawyer.

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Speaker 3: You are is this.

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Speaker 2: Book we're about to talk about today. You're twelve or thirteenth.

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Speaker 2: I can't figure it out.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure I would have if someone had asked me,

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Speaker 3: I would have said eleventh. But I'm not.

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Speaker 1: Certain, so I thought, I don't know, Okay, so we'll

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Speaker 1: go with eleven, twelve or thirty, Yeah, one of those.

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Speaker 1: You are a researcher and you are such an engaging speaker,

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Speaker 1: And I think you and I met on a speak

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Speaker 1: circuit when we really got to know one another.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think when we were both writing things about food. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: quite a long time ago. Now, do you know?

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Speaker 1: If I do an interview as a guest, often someone

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Speaker 1: will say, all right, who's your favorite author, I'll be

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Speaker 1: like David Gillespie, hands down. And that was before you

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Speaker 1: started writing more about psychology and the human brain, which

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Speaker 1: is one of my favorite topics.

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Speaker 2: I'm just pumped to be talking to you today. But

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Speaker 2: it was because of the way that you.

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Speaker 1: I love the way that you write so honestly, and

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Speaker 1: it feels like we're just having a combo when you write,

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Speaker 1: like your tone is straight down the line, quite dry

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Speaker 1: and funny.

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Speaker 3: Would you say, oh, look, it's interesting. One of my

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Speaker 3: kids said to me the other day. My kids generally

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Speaker 3: don't read the things that I write, but one of

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Speaker 3: them accidentally picked up a copy of teen Brain and

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Speaker 3: started reading it, and she said, it's just like having

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Speaker 3: you in the room. I can imagine you be saying

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Speaker 3: exactly these things exactly this way.

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Speaker 1: Definitely as I was reading, especially Taming Toxic People that

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Speaker 1: I really want to dive in today. Although we need

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Speaker 1: to talk about Brain Reset, which is officially available now,

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Speaker 1: even though we're recording it a little bit in the

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Speaker 1: lead up, because I just had to see you in

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Speaker 1: real life. Yeah, I think my favorite thing about when

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Speaker 1: I read this, and if anyone listening, if you enjoy

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Speaker 1: this podcast, know that when you pick up any one

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Speaker 1: of the plethora of David's books, it'll feel like this,

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Speaker 1: Like it's going to be straight honest. I would just say,

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Speaker 1: your viewpoint, what you hear from everything that you've researched.

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Speaker 3: And remembering that my viewpoint amounts to nothing in a

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Speaker 3: sense in that because I'm not an expert in any

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Speaker 3: of the things I write about, everything I say has

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Speaker 3: to be backed up with evidence, and that's why my

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Speaker 3: books are so heavily fact check, so heavily referenced, it's

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Speaker 3: because I have a lawyer's habit of when I state

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Speaker 3: a fact, I cite a reference.

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Speaker 1: I love that though I think that's you can't go wrong,

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Speaker 1: you can't get yeek, And I love that even in

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Speaker 1: reading all of your books, you'll have studies spanning from

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Speaker 1: where an idea first originated from to present day stuff,

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Speaker 1: which I love. Okay, So I want to go back

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Speaker 1: to the start for a little bit, because you taught

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Speaker 1: me so much about my own health.

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Speaker 2: And I'm a qualified nutritionist, and.

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Speaker 1: What you taught me was that although I was eating

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Speaker 1: all these healthy foods, I was still using maple.

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Speaker 2: Syrup and a lot of.

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Speaker 1: Healthier alternatives of sweetness in my diet, but it was

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Speaker 1: still a diet that was very heavy in sugars.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, your book Sweet Poison made your best selling author

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Speaker 1: all over the world. Yes, talk to me about the

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Speaker 1: idea of that, not necessarily idea of it, but it

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Speaker 1: happened because you just tried to.

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Speaker 2: Add on yourself. Right.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's right. I'd spent most of my life to

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Speaker 3: that point getting fatter and fatner and fatter like most Australians,

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Speaker 3: and I tried stuff that I heard on the radio

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Speaker 3: or saw on television or I read that in the paper,

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Speaker 3: you know, like a low carb diet or a broccoly diet,

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Speaker 3: or a soup diet or a walking the dog diet,

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Speaker 3: and all of those sorts of things all kind of

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Speaker 3: work to varying degrees for as long as your willpower

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Speaker 3: holds out, which in my case was about two weeks generally,

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Speaker 3: and a lot of people. Yeah, and then any way

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Speaker 3: that I lost came straight back on. So I thought,

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Speaker 3: this just doesn't make sense. It can't be the case

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Speaker 3: that we've had a sudden failure of willpower in the

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Speaker 3: latter half of the twentieth century or early part of

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Speaker 3: the twenty first century, and our population is now stuffed

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Speaker 3: because of it. I didn't buy that. I thought there

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Speaker 3: has to be a biochemical explanation for what's going on,

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Speaker 3: and it is likely to be in what we were

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Speaker 3: shoving in our mouths, because that is everything, essentially when

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Speaker 3: it comes to your weight. And so I started looking

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Speaker 3: at what the science did tell us about it, and

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Speaker 3: what I quickly discovered was that most of what we

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Speaker 3: were told about what makes us fat was nonsense. It

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Speaker 3: has nothing to do with the amount of fat that

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Speaker 3: you consume. Any more than eating cucumbers will make you green.

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Speaker 3: It just doesn't happen, and there's no science that backs

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Speaker 3: it up, even less science to back up the exercising

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Speaker 3: will make you thin. So what I did find was

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Speaker 3: that there was a different strain of research that had

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Speaker 3: been going since the start of nutrition as a profession

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Speaker 3: in the early nineteen fifties that said the real cause

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Speaker 3: was sugar. And a lot of that research had made

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Speaker 3: some pretty big guesses because we didn't know a lot

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Speaker 3: about human metabolism, we didn't know many of the hormones involved.

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Speaker 3: But over the decades those research holes had been filled in,

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Speaker 3: and by the time I was writing Sweet Poison, the

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Speaker 3: story was pretty complete, which was, yes, it was sugar

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Speaker 3: that makes us fat because it disrupts our appetite control system,

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Speaker 3: so it makes us fat by making us eat more

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Speaker 3: of everything, and it also has some other really nasty

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Speaker 3: metabolic side effects that lead to things like type two diabetes,

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Speaker 3: liver disease, and all those sorts of things. But that's

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Speaker 3: what the research said. So I thought, well, look, if

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Speaker 3: this is true, then all I've really got to do

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Speaker 3: is stop eating sugar. So I tried that. It was

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Speaker 3: a lot easier said than done for two reasons. One,

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Speaker 3: it's in everything. I didn't realize that. I thought, you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't put sugar on my cereal, so practically not

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Speaker 3: eating sugar as it is. What I didn't realize is

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Speaker 3: I didn't need to put sugar on my cereal because

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Speaker 3: it was already a quarter of sugar.

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Speaker 2: So even the healthy ones.

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Speaker 3: That's right. And there was stuff that we were being

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Speaker 3: told was healthy, like orange juice or in your case,

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Speaker 3: maple syrup, that was just as much sugar as anything else.

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Speaker 3: So once you get down to the biochemistry of it,

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Speaker 3: the body doesn't care where the sugar comes from. It's

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Speaker 3: it's all exactly the same. So once I'd sorted all

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Speaker 3: of that out and figured out how to live without

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Speaker 3: eating sugar, which just meant eating a pine chips without

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Speaker 3: the sauce, essentially sauce half sugar, that's right, and even

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Speaker 3: normal sources a quarter sugar. So once I get all

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Speaker 3: that out, I had the other problem to overcome, which

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Speaker 3: we'll maybe talk about a little bit later, which is

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Speaker 3: that sugar is actually addictive, which is of course why

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Speaker 3: food manufacturers want it in their food.

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Speaker 2: Blists don't they call it that? That blister.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's easier to sell food that's addictive than

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Speaker 3: food that isn't. And that's why when you look at

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Speaker 3: the history of food, manufacturers have always tried to include

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Speaker 3: a little bit of addictive substance in there. You know,

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Speaker 3: anything from cocaine, coca cola, cola through to all manner

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Speaker 3: of addictive substances have been added to food, and the

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Speaker 3: one that they get away with at the moment caffeine

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Speaker 3: and sugar. So anyway, looking at all of that, I

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Speaker 3: decided to apply it. When I did a I lost

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Speaker 3: forty kilos. It didn't turn me into Brad Pitt, as

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Speaker 3: you can see, but it did mean that I stopped

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Speaker 3: putting on weight and I've stayed the same weight since,

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Speaker 3: which is now, you know, forteen years ago. So and

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Speaker 3: that was something different from me my whole life I had.

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Speaker 3: It was just the way things went. My weight just

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Speaker 3: kept going up all the time.

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Speaker 2: So so many help can relate to that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so I thought, I applied it, did it.

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Speaker 3: It worked. And a friend of mine said, look, you've

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Speaker 3: really got to write this down because it's just so simple,

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Speaker 3: and you just got to say what you did. And

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Speaker 3: I said, well, I just stopped eating sugar and said, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: but what about all the stuff about identifying it and

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Speaker 3: why you did it? Because he said, people need to

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Speaker 3: understand why this works. And so I wrote it down

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Speaker 3: and he then pestered a publisher until they decided to

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Speaker 3: publish it.

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Speaker 2: Oh what a good mate. Yeah, I love that. So

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Speaker 2: one thing that gets me. And you're probably going to

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Speaker 2: shake your head when I say this.

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Speaker 1: Yes, last night, when I was getting ingredients for dinner,

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Speaker 1: I thought, oh, I'm just going to check that label

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Speaker 1: of the dark chocolate that my boyfriend I love to share.

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Speaker 1: We always it's one hundred grams of a dark, nice,

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Speaker 1: delicious lint chocolate with some you always put raspberries with it.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, surely this is going to

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Speaker 1: be low sugar. It's dark chocolate, you know, and the

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Speaker 1: color is really like and it's and I picked up

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Speaker 1: one hundred gram thing of chocolate forty nine grams of sugar.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well that's you know. That's the thing they don't

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Speaker 3: say is even when they say, you know, they sell

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Speaker 3: something like sixty percent cocoa of chocolate which is a

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Speaker 3: dark chocolate, or even seventy percent.

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Speaker 2: It was seventy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what they don't tell you was that the other

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Speaker 3: thirty percent is the sugar. I mean, yeah, So there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of marketing in this.

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Speaker 1: And even like being a nutritionus in all my other books,

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Speaker 1: when you and I were working together, would.

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Speaker 2: Having like raw vegan cheesecakes.

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Speaker 1: And again I found my favorite little raw vegan treat

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Speaker 1: that I buy from the halfits round craving. Something I

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Speaker 1: picked up and I was like, nineteen point nine grams

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Speaker 1: of sugar.

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Speaker 3: Well, often, particularly vegetarian and vegan foods, very very high

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Speaker 3: in sugar, mostly because they don't taste that good. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And the only way to make them taste better is

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Speaker 3: a lot of sugar in them. Now, it might have

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Speaker 3: all sorts of fancy names, but it's still sugar as

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Speaker 3: far as you buy chemistry.

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Speaker 2: My favorite recent one is like coconut nectar.

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Speaker 1: Blossoms lovely, right, and it's just basically the sugar part.

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Speaker 1: So another thing that I like, I've learned so much

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Speaker 1: off you, Like I said, because I just thought, oh

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Speaker 1: I was very hippie mung bean. Let's just you know,

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Speaker 1: eat as many natural things as we can. But you're right,

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Speaker 1: you'd have to add a lot of dates or dates.

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Speaker 3: States is a big one. So you see a lot

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Speaker 3: of dates being added to recipes and that's because they

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Speaker 3: are very high in sugar. And that's just a natural

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Speaker 3: way of saying sugar.

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Speaker 1: And the when I like deep drive you and your books,

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Speaker 1: it's really breaking down the foot toast aliment.

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Speaker 2: That's the that's the danger.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, So sugar is two molecules, glucose and fractose,

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Speaker 3: and it's the fractose part of it is the dangerous part.

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Speaker 3: Glucose is in everything. Every carbohydrate we eat is glucose.

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Speaker 3: We are well adapted to metabolizing that efficiently.

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Speaker 2: And it's not that sweet, right.

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Speaker 3: It's not that sweet. It's less than half as sweet

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Speaker 3: as table sugar. The sweet half of sugar is fractose

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Speaker 3: and it's what makes sugar sweet. And when you put

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Speaker 3: it in pure form, so just by adding you know,

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Speaker 3: pure fractose sugar or things that are very high in fractose,

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Speaker 3: like dates, then it makes the thing even sweeter. So,

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Speaker 3: but it's the dangerous bit because we are not adapted

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Speaker 3: to metabolizer. We don't have mechanisms to control our intake

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Speaker 3: of it, and it messes up our appetite control, which

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Speaker 3: makes us eat more of everything, not just more fructose.

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Speaker 2: So interesting.

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Speaker 1: I read when you initially came off sugar, the first

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks are really tricky, and you had to

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Speaker 1: have it end up like being diet soft drinks to

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Speaker 1: get you through that.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I used a sort of a crutch, I guess.

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Speaker 3: And you know, as I read further and wrote further

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Speaker 3: about addiction later on, it's clear what was going on

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Speaker 3: there is I was essentially using a nicotine patch for sugar.

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Speaker 3: So well, I use.

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Speaker 1: Monk fruit and stevia, which are like the healthy natural

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Speaker 1: versions of same deal, exactly the same deal, because I

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Speaker 1: always learned that, and I noticed when I've really cut,

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Speaker 1: honestly cut sugar out, like I'm talking proper. Yes, no,

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Speaker 1: you'll eat a carrot or be's a pumpkin, and it

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Speaker 1: will taste sweet to use your taste buds, you really

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Speaker 1: do get used to.

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Speaker 3: Being sugar freas absolutely, and bananas taste like extremely sweet trees,

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Speaker 3: which a person eating sugar would say is rubbish, so

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Speaker 3: that they don't find bananas particularly sweet.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, so interesting.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we've got so much to cover us, so I

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Speaker 1: just I've got my little six pages of notes here,

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Speaker 1: can we quickly touch on toxic oils because I loved that.

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Speaker 1: You've got a few that touch on it. You've got

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Speaker 1: the Big Fat Lies book too, don't you.

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Speaker 3: So, Big Fat Lies that started it. Then Toxic Oils

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Speaker 3: is applying some of the things in Big Fat Lies.

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Speaker 3: And then there's been a rewrite of Toxic Oils more

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Speaker 3: recently called the Good Fat Guide. All of it is

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Speaker 3: summarized well, I think in my favorite of that series

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Speaker 3: of books, which is Eat Real Food Cookbook. I love it.

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Speaker 2: I've got it. I looked at it on the weekend,

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Speaker 2: so good.

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Speaker 3: It's not really a cookbook. I mean, it does have

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Speaker 3: cooking in it, but the first half of it is

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Speaker 3: really a summary of everything I've said in all my

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Speaker 3: writing about sugar and seed oils. So the dangerous thing

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Speaker 3: about seed oils, and let's just be really clear what

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Speaker 3: a seed oil is. It's what it sounds like. It

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Speaker 3: comes from a seed. It's often described on labels as

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Speaker 3: vegetable oil. No vegetables were harmed in the creation of

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Speaker 3: seed oils. You can't get oil from a vegetable, so

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Speaker 3: seed oils are extracted from sea. So there are things

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Speaker 3: like canola oil, soybean oil, your safflour oil or sunflower oil.

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Speaker 3: Those sorts of things are all seed oils. They're different

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Speaker 3: from legum oils and fruit oil, so fruit oils for example,

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Speaker 3: coconut oil, olive oil, yeah, so even palm kernel oil.

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Speaker 3: So fruit oils tend to be quite a lot higher

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Speaker 3: in saturated and monolunsaturated fats and very low in the

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Speaker 3: dangerous part of seed oils, which is amiga six polyunsaturates.

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Speaker 3: It can go rancid like that, right, that's right in

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Speaker 3: a heartbeat, which is why when seed oils are sold

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Speaker 3: as a solid like margarine, they have to be full

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Speaker 3: of antioxidant and all manner of things to stop them

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Speaker 3: going ransoid.

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Speaker 2: And aren't they diet and stuff as well, Like they'd.

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Speaker 3: Be black of course, well I don't know what color

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Speaker 3: they'd be normally, but they certainly wouldn't be yellow yea,

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Speaker 3: And they certainly wouldn't taste like butter, so they have

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Speaker 3: flavoring and all that sort of stuff in them. The

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Speaker 3: reason it's important is amiga six fats. We need them

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Speaker 3: in our diet. They run our immune system. They are

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Speaker 3: really critically important to a bunch of functions in the

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Speaker 3: way our brains work and the way our eyes work

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Speaker 3: and so on. So we need an amount. We need

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Speaker 3: about one and a half grams a day of amiga

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Speaker 3: six fats, just as we do of amiga three fats,

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Speaker 3: about one and a half grands a day. We'd get

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Speaker 3: that just from eating normal food, just normal real food.

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Speaker 3: We'd get that. One and a half grams is not much.

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Speaker 3: But when we fill our entire diet with them, which

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Speaker 3: is what processed food does. So Amiga six is seed

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Speaker 3: oils in everything that's in a package. If you have

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Speaker 3: a look at the label and you see a large

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Speaker 3: amount of polyunsaturated fat or one of those seed oils

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Speaker 3: listed in the ingredients, or just vegetabils listening to ingredients,

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Speaker 3: then there's a lot of that stuff in the food,

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Speaker 3: even in foods that you wouldn't expect to see them

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Speaker 3: in at all. So, for example, you'll see things like

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Speaker 3: Danish fetter made from seed oil. You'll see chocolates made.

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Speaker 2: From seed Chocky's are a big one.

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Speaker 3: Aren't they. Yeah, so, and you wouldn't expect you would

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Speaker 3: expect those things to have cow or goat's milk as

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Speaker 3: the fat. Sauce or cocoa butter as the fat sauce.

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Speaker 3: But because these things are very very cheap, manufacturers are

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Speaker 3: always looking for a way to save a few seeds.

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Speaker 3: So an example of that in bread, for example, if

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Speaker 3: you take the olive oil which is a normal part

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Speaker 3: of a bread recipe or lard, and substituting a seed

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Speaker 3: oil like canola oil, you will save sixteen cents a loaf. Now,

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Speaker 3: sixteen cents a loaf doesn't sound like much, but it's

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Speaker 3: a high volume market and it amounts to about one

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Speaker 3: hundred million dollars a year in the Istralim bread market.

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Speaker 3: So those things are done all throughout the supermarket, which

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Speaker 3: means that almost everything you buy now is full of

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Speaker 3: seed oils. That matters because the highly oxidizable state of

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Speaker 3: amiga six fat, once it enters the body, significantly increases

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Speaker 3: the likelihood of cancer.

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Speaker 2: Don't now, cells even lack absorbed in.

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Speaker 3: That's right, So they become part of the cell wall,

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Speaker 3: and because they're so reactive, they massively increase oxidation of

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Speaker 3: the cells, which is the first step towards cancer. So

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Speaker 3: as the cell walls oxidize, it can ultimately cause damage

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Speaker 3: to DNA. So that's why it matters. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: of other reasons why it matters. There's a cascade of

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Speaker 3: disease states, and none of them are good, and all

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Speaker 3: of them accumulative. So unlike with sugar, where you can

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Speaker 3: just decide, well, I'm going to stop eating sugar, and

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Speaker 3: then your weight will start going backwards, your risk for

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00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,240
Speaker 3: type two diabetes will start going backwards, your blood pressure

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00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 3: will start going backwards. Everything will be starting to be

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Speaker 3: fine as long as you can't damage the relevant auguments

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Speaker 3: beyond repair. With seed oils, it's less clear that it

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Speaker 3: can be repaired by just stopping. So that's why I

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Speaker 3: think that's the much more dangerous topic, much harder to explain,

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Speaker 3: much harder to understand, but much more dangerous.

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Speaker 1: Now you nailed that, you explain about so David's family

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00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 1: at home? What so?

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Speaker 2: I imagine you use butter yep, olive oil.

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00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 3: Ah, yeah, occasionally we'd use olive oil for pan frying.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: My boyfriend's Italian, so we have a lot of oliver.

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Speaker 1: I imagine you'd be fine with coconut oil.

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Speaker 3: No fry with rendered beefat so it's sold in the

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Speaker 3: supermarket a super fry really, Yeah, it's a big blocks.

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Speaker 3: It's in red alf oil. Oh really yeah, big five

397
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,600
Speaker 3: hundred gm cube of it. You get four of those,

398
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 3: put them in a pot. You enough to do yourself

399
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Speaker 3: as set of chips.

400
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:28,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I love some tips.

401
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 1: Do you remember I worked for a burger company when

402
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,320
Speaker 1: we met, and I was like, oh, you'd love it.

403
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 2: It's got zacchini chips. It's really local. When you was

404
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 2: you were like, talk to me and when the oils

405
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 2: have changed? Do you remember?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

407
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, one of my fast I just want to

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00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 1: talk one more thing about food, and I'm sure it'll

409
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 1: come up again. We talk about addiction. But I don't

410
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 1: know if you remember this. This is one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite memories of you. We were all you and I

412
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 1: were speaking on a panel and there were other health

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Speaker 1: professionals and authors on this panel, and we got asked

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Speaker 1: a question by the audience, which is, can everyone say

415
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 1: your favorite superfood?

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00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:03,440
Speaker 3: And I've went along the list.

417
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 2: We a long list.

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00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 1: It was like people would say magnesium gogie berries.

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Speaker 2: You know.

420
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 1: I think Sarah Wilson said Brussels sprouts, which I love. Anyway,

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00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 1: I don't even remember what I said, but it got

422
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 1: to you and I was sitting next to you and

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00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 1: you just grabbed the microphone and you said, just eat

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00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 1: an egg. Yeah, and if you want some vitamin, see

425
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 1: how it with broccoli. But like, I love that you

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00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:34,640
Speaker 1: have that very simple, clear, direct relationship when you talk

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00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 1: about health and food. And I think we can get

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00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: so bombarded myself included with oh i'll try I'll try

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Speaker 1: intimate and fasting this week, I'll try this, or I'll

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Speaker 1: try or I'll add monk fruit to my creation.

431
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 2: And it's like, why not just simplify it?

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00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 3: And so that's getting back to that cookboard They Eat

433
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 3: Real Food cookbook. That's what the recipes in it do.

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00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 3: So if you wanted to know what we eat, look

435
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 3: at those recipes.

436
00:21:58,359 --> 00:21:59,919
Speaker 2: That's all we It is a burger.

437
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 3: There is a burg there, and that's it. It's just

438
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 3: really really simple, really quick, normal real food ingredients.

439
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: Yes, Coeon, we're.

440
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 1: Going to change right now because you've written about so

441
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 1: many different things and this book I haven't read, but

442
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 1: I have watched a.

443
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 2: Sixty minute interview with you about it.

444
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,879
Speaker 1: It's called Free School and it's basically you can please

445
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 1: take over, but it's public versus private school education here

446
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,719
Speaker 1: in Australia, and you have set up a not for

447
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 1: profit regarding this as well.

448
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 2: So can you share a little bit about the preface

449
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 2: of that book?

450
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 3: Okay, so what that what that book's about is whether

451
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 3: or not paying for schooling makes any difference. And you know, spoiler,

452
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,120
Speaker 3: it doesn't.

453
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 2: All girls private Catholic school.

454
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 3: I went to a private boys school, so and but

455
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 3: my kids don't. They go to all public school. And

456
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 3: that's because what this book is an examination of is

457
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,680
Speaker 3: what the research says about what matters and what doesn't

458
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 3: in education. And one of the things that don't matter

459
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 3: is how much you pay for it in Australia. So

460
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 3: you would then naturally think, well, what does matter? And

461
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 3: that's what the rest of the book is about, which

462
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 3: is looking at the things that the research actually identify

463
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 3: do have a real effect on outcomes for students in schools.

464
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: I've heard you in an interview explain the difference between

465
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: when you upgrade a plane ticket, that's.

466
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah yeah. So if you

467
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 3: think of schooling as a flight to London, and it

468
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 3: has to say three classes of travel or your first class,

469
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 3: business class and economy, you can pay a different amount

470
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 3: for each ticket. You can have a first class ticket

471
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 3: with all the bells and whistles, the sleeper bed, the

472
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 3: flash food, all that sort of thing. Business is not

473
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 3: quite so nice economy, none of the above. The thing

474
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 3: that makes it like education, though, is that when you

475
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 3: all get to London, you get there at the same time,

476
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: and it doesn't matter how many bells and whistles you

477
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 3: had on the way. The point of it is to

478
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 3: get to London. And that's how our school system works

479
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 3: as well. What you're paying for is bells and whistles.

480
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 3: You're playing for the first class service, but you all

481
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 3: get the same result. And over and over again. It's

482
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,239
Speaker 3: clear from the research that it really doesn't matter if

483
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 3: you pay for it. Yes, if you pay for it,

484
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 3: you might get a nicer tennis court, you might get

485
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 3: a questrian stables, you might get a better pool, and

486
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 3: it's first class, but you all get to London at

487
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 3: the same time.

488
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 1: And did I send this interview you quote like you

489
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,120
Speaker 1: priced out how much would cost to go private with your.

490
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I worked out that this is a few

491
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 3: years ago now like it's twenty thirteen. It worked out

492
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 3: to one and a half million to send my six

493
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 3: kids to the school that I went to and its

494
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 3: sister school now be a lot more than that now,

495
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 3: but you know, you have to think, okay, well could

496
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 3: I spend that one and a half million on something

497
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 3: else for those kids or something else entirely the.

498
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 2: Family a couple of holiday homes.

499
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 3: And so that's the approach that my wife, Lizzie and

500
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: I have taken, which is we want them to experience

501
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 3: it as much as possible while they can, and if

502
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 3: they want to try you know, I don't know, private

503
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 3: course writing lessons, then we let them try it, knowing

504
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 3: that we haven't had to pay a stupid amount of

505
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 3: money to send them to school.

506
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 2: It's funny.

507
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: I've had my dad in Byron last week and he's like,

508
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: I'm back from dever On Adventures all over the world.

509
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: And I said, oh, I think I'm a career girl. Dad,

510
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: I don't know if I have kids. And he's like, well,

511
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: you can kiss some of your dreams goodbye if you do,

512
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: because like they're really expensive.

513
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 3: Yes they are.

514
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: He's like, you say, you want a home in America

515
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 1: or a home and Byron he's like, you won't get that,

516
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: and I was like really, and it's like yes, really.

517
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 2: So it's so fascinating to see.

518
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: I think, obviously, because I don't have kids, I've been

519
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: a little bit oblivious to the cost of what me

520
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: and my brother would have been on.

521
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: Both my parents were single parents raising us as well.

522
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: So really, but one thing that I was really intrigued

523
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: by and I saw you speak about and write about,

524
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: is that single sex schools don't make a difference.

525
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 3: No, no, they don't. There's no evidence that they make

526
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 3: the slightest bit of difference to academic outcomes. So they

527
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 3: might make some difference to some social outcomes, particularly for girls,

528
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 3: and that's increasingly the case, which is sort of something

529
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 3: I discovered after I wrote that book, when I was

530
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 3: looking at the researching teen brain. But for academic outcomes,

531
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 3: they don't make any difference.

532
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 2: Amazing.

533
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: Oh I'm just I said to my boyfriend on the

534
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: way here. I was like, oh, I don't know if

535
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: we're going to need this to be a two part series.

536
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: I've got so many questions. So the next thing is

537
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: kind of like brings me to is then you've been

538
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: really passionate about this. You've set up your own not

539
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: for profit as well, and that's also called free schools.

540
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 3: So what free schools is about is. One of the

541
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 3: things that came up in the research in free Schools

542
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 3: was that there are significant differences in levels of access

543
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 3: to high quality education in Australia. So it was all

544
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 3: well and good for me to write a book that said,

545
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 3: identify schools that look like this and teachers that look

546
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 3: like this, which is what I did. But at the

547
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 3: end of the day, you know, if you don't live

548
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 3: anywhere near a school that looks like what I describe,

549
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 3: then you have very little chance of accessing it. And

550
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: so I decided to set up a charity called Free Schools,

551
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 3: which is a way to access the best teachers in

552
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 3: Australia for free for any kid, and it targets in

553
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 3: particular rule and remote kids, but anyone can use it.

554
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 3: There's no you know, you don't have to sign up

555
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 3: or anything. You just go there and use it. It's

556
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 3: free Schools dot org. But it has now over seven

557
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 3: and a half thousand lessons being delivered by Australian teachers

558
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 3: in accordance with the curriculum. And that last bit is

559
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 3: really really important. You can go onto YouTube and you

560
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 3: can look up lots of people teaching lots of stuff,

561
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 3: but these ones are lined up the Australian curriculum, so

562
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 3: you can know, okay, i am in week three of

563
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 3: year eleven maths methods and what am I supposed to

564
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 3: be learning And you can go straight to that bit

565
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: and you can see ten teachers teaching that week's worth

566
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 3: of work and choose your adventure. You know, whichever one

567
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 3: you find the most engaging, you listen to. We think

568
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 3: it's a platform that has an enormous promise. You know,

569
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 3: there's a lot of reasons why kids don't engage with

570
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 3: particular teachers, everything from the way the teacher delivers, to

571
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 3: just having no cultural identification with the person to whatever.

572
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 3: You know, there's lots of different way reasons why kids

573
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: don't engage, and they may be having exactly that problem

574
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 3: with the person who's trying to teach them in class

575
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 3: in school. This isn't a substitute for that. It's a

576
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 3: supplement so that when you've come home and you thought

577
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 3: I really don't get that, you can go on and

578
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 3: you can just have a look at it and you

579
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: can access it from a phone, from your tablet, from

580
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 3: a computer, whatever. It's completely free.

581
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: That's incredible.

582
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: Like, so if anyone's listening to this and it's like,

583
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: I want to get behind her, I want to get involved.

584
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: How can they help?

585
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 3: Can they just well, this's a couple of ways they do.

586
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 3: They can give us money. It is a charity. It's

587
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 3: fully tax deductible. So if you just go to free

588
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 3: school dot org got au and you'll probably put a

589
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 3: link already written correct and just make a donation if

590
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 3: that's what they wish to do. As I said, fully

591
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 3: tax deductible. The other way they can do it is

592
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 3: if they are a teacher, they can get in touch

593
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: with us and say I'd like to do some content

594
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: for this, and we're always looking for new teachers. And

595
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 3: the other way they can do it is just get

596
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 3: in touch with us and say, look, I'm not a teacher,

597
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 3: but I do want to help. I could introduce this

598
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 3: to my local school, I show my local teachers and

599
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 3: we have programs for volunteers to do that as well.

600
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: Ah, thank you for sharing that, because that's reasonably new

601
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: in your journey.

602
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 3: Absolutely, that's brand new. Yeah, in the last year.

603
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,479
Speaker 1: Exciting you do not stop, my friend. Okay, So that

604
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: brings me to teen Brain. Now again, this was a

605
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: book I hadn't read but then I got so fascinated

606
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: by because You've done a few podcasts on it, and

607
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: I was like, holy smokes this And then now reading

608
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: the Brain Reset in you book, it makes sense why

609
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: girls are addicted to one thing and boys are addicted

610
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: to another thing. So let's quickly talk about teen brain

611
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: and basically you do really tackle the effects of screen

612
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: time and the addictions that come with that, right, that's right.

613
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 3: So it started from an observation that we seem to

614
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: be in the middle of an epidemic of anxiety and

615
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 3: depression in teenagers. The numbers in this are getting very

616
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 3: much worse, very very quickly. And it's really odd because

617
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 3: the research, if you look at it, would say, well,

618
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 3: where anxiety and depression in teenagers comes from is from addiction.

619
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: So that's a known link that's been well established in

620
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 3: the research, which is addiction equals anxiety equals depression. It's

621
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 3: a spectrum. But the stats on addiction have been going

622
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 3: in the opposite direction. So all the stats on the

623
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 3: things which are traditionally addictive, smoking, alcohol, all that sort

624
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 3: of thing tell us that gen Z's, which is anyone

625
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 3: born after nineteen ninety five are less likely to do

626
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 3: that than their parents were in fact, half as likely

627
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 3: to do that as their parents. So despite all the

628
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 3: stories about horrible teenagers doing horrible things, the reality is

629
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 3: they do a lot less of it than their parents did.

630
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 3: In fact, any addiction that required you to be physically present,

631
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: gen z don't do.

632
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: So that's all dastic, right, that's a drastic drip.

633
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 3: That's a massive drop. So even though we've had years

634
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 3: and years and years of public health campaigns trying to

635
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 3: curb underage pregnancy, underage drinking, smoking, all that sort of thing,

636
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 3: it had no effect whatsoever. And then in twenty ten

637
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 3: it all suddenly went into reverse, just bang out of

638
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 3: the blue, no particular reason for it. And what I

639
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 3: put forward in this book is there is a reason

640
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 3: for it, which is that they now can get addicted

641
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 3: for free, much more easily than their parents ever could,

642
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: because there is software which is explicitly written to do

643
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 3: exactly that. And so instead of it just being the

644
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 3: adventurous few in the population who became addicted developed anxiety,

645
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 3: developed depression, et cetera, we now are undertaking a brand

646
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 3: new social experiment where every single child is exposed to

647
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 3: addiction every minute of the day, which is what these

648
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 3: apps are doing? And why did that happen in twenty ten,

649
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 3: Well that's when the iPad came out. So now in

650
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 3: the last ten years, we've invented portable on all the

651
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 3: time Internet and devices capable of accessing usually free apps

652
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 3: that are engineered for addiction.

653
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: I love the way you describe the way.

654
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: So a few things I love. First of all, I

655
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: call it gabba, but you call it gaba.

656
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 3: I'd probably mispronounce it wrong.

657
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: Can you do it right?

658
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 3: I think it is gaba.

659
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 2: I was trying to go, Oh my god, I say so.

660
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: I didn't know that there was gabba suppression for your teenageers,

661
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: so Gabba's You can describe this much better than me.

662
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: Gabber is a suppressor, so its general role is suppression

663
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 3: in addiction. It suppresses dopamine and promotes the production of serotonin,

664
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 3: which makes us feel good and happy and not depressed

665
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 3: and calm. So dope means the thing that puts us

666
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 3: on edge. It makes us ready to receive a reward,

667
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 3: and so high dovemin levels equals anxiety, so gaba shuts

668
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 3: down dopamine. It also suppresses the hormones which allow us

669
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 3: to commence puberty. So otherwise we'd commence pubery immediately after birth,

670
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 3: but GABA stops that happening. In order for puberty to start,

671
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 3: you have to take the breaking system off, which means

672
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 3: turn off GABBA. So adolescence from the start of puberty

673
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 3: through to early twenties have lower GABBA than either children

674
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 3: or adults, and which is why all addictions. You look

675
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 3: at all the addiction statistics, all the research on addictions,

676
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 3: most people who become lifelong addicts to anything first start

677
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 3: when they are a teen teenager.

678
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: And straight after I read this, I cold. I said

679
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: to my boyfriend, when did you start smoking? So he

680
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 1: doesn't smoke now, but he was like, oh, I started

681
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: when I was a teenager.

682
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I was like, oh my god, this all.

683
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 3: Make so well. It's not just him. The stats are

684
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 3: really really clear. The peak time for addiction is teenagers,

685
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 3: and there's a really good biochemical reason for that. The

686
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 3: system that would stop that happening is turned off right now.

687
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: The other thing that I love that you go into

688
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: and you definitely go into it again in brain reset,

689
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: but you talk about I think you describe it as

690
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: like danger porn and then approval porn and how they

691
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 1: work with males versus females.

692
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 3: When you go into that danger, porn is engineered for males,

693
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 3: which is males because of testosterone, which they have levels,

694
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 3: you know, hundreds of times higher than females. I mean,

695
00:34:53,760 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 3: interesting side story is that female all humans are female.

696
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 3: Males are the four wheel drive version that were created

697
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: by females because they needed the dangerous stuff done by

698
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: disposable humans. So that's the biochemical version of things that

699
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 3: happens because of testosterone. It's the thing that does it,

700
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 3: and it suppresses our receptivity to oxotocin, which is our

701
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 3: socialization hormone. So males are much less concerned about whether

702
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 3: people like them and much more concerned about what other

703
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 3: people think, both about them and in general. And that's

704
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 3: the testosterone suppressing the oxotocin. Will come back to oxotocin

705
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 3: when we talk about female addiction, but with the males,

706
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 3: all that testosterone also does a couple of other things.

707
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: It suppresses impulse control, so it means that they are

708
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 3: much more prepared to take risk. Not because they see

709
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 3: risk and say, oh, I'm a risky kind of dude,

710
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 3: I'm going to take it. It's because they don't see

711
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 3: the risk. So they look at a female, and the

712
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 3: female can look at the same situation. The female will

713
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 3: see the risk and make a proper assessment. The male

714
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: doesn't even see the risk, can't imagine that there is

715
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 3: even a risk to be contemplated. And that's why when

716
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 3: you look at, say, injuries, males have three times the

717
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 3: rate of injury as females. It's not, you know, it's

718
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 3: not that there's anything strange about that. It's that the

719
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 3: males are doing things that they just don't perceive there

720
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 3: to be a risk of, and females are looking at

721
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 3: that and say I will not do that. So that risk,

722
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 3: that love of risk in a sense, means that if

723
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 3: you want to addict a male, what you have to

724
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 3: do is simulate risk for them. You have to give

725
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 3: them danger. Now, the oldest form of that simulation is

726
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 3: just plain old ordinary gambling, which is a risk simulation,

727
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 3: which is sometimes you win, most of the time you won't,

728
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 3: but you're taking risks, and the thrill of winning or

729
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 3: just not losing is reward enough for doing that. So

730
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 3: that's what gambling is. Take the lessons we've learned over

731
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 3: millennia about gambling, AMP up the speed that you can

732
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 3: do it and turn it into a visual simulation of

733
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 3: real life risk, such as fighting people in a three

734
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 3: D simulation game. And you've got what I call danger porn,

735
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 3: which is a high speed simulation of risking your life

736
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 3: thousands of times a day, perfect for males, absolute addiction,

737
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 3: designed to addict males.

738
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 2: I've heard you talk about a game called Fortnite.

739
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, so Fortnite's one that the younger males really really indulgent,

740
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 3: and it's just a cleaned up version of what you

741
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 3: often see in the other one. So if you see

742
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: a more traditional online fighting games, you know people getting

743
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 3: their heads blown off, blood over the screen, blah blah

744
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 3: blah blah blah. Mum walks in the room when a

745
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 3: fourteen year old is playing that, and it's going to

746
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,439
Speaker 3: be turned off straight away, just the end. So what

747
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 3: the developers of Fortnite did is cleaned up cartoonified it.

748
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 3: So it's the same thing, but it looks like.

749
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: A cartoon because you've got a killed and you say

750
00:37:59,200 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 2: ninety nine other.

751
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 3: Kill ninety nine other people, So you're dropped on an

752
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 3: island with ninety nine other people, and the winner is

753
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 3: the one who kills all the others.

754
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 2: Wow, it sounds like Hunger games.

755
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well you know, and so there's a lot

756
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 3: of killing, yeah, and you can do it lots a

757
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 3: lot in the games last ten twenty minutes. So you're

758
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,399
Speaker 3: putting your life at risk, and most of the time,

759
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 3: as you would imagine, unless you're particularly good at this,

760
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 3: you will die, but sometimes you won't when sometimes you

761
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 3: will last a little bit longer. And that variable uncertainty

762
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 3: is a key factor in addiction, and it's one that's

763
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,919
Speaker 3: applied in the stuff that's written for females, which takes

764
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 3: advantage of the other side of this coin, which is

765
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 3: they are very sensitive to oxytocin.

766
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 2: So which is stuff, right, it is.

767
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 3: But it's also what it's also what you get when

768
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: you socialize with other humans. So when you get into

769
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 3: a group with other humans and do things that they like,

770
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 3: and they show you they like it, you get a

771
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 3: shot of oxytocin. So suddenly you feel good because you're

772
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 3: doing things that other people like. So it keeps It's

773
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 3: like group glue. It binds humans together, and females are

774
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 3: extremely sensitive to it. Teenage females are even more sensitive

775
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 3: to it simply because they don't have the shutdown of

776
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 3: the Gabba being released. So so oxytocin promotes don't mean

777
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 3: hit makes it addictive. Now, the trouble is that in

778
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 3: real life it's very very hard to do that on

779
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,479
Speaker 3: high speed simulation. I mean, you can be as social

780
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 3: as you like, but you're not going to be going out,

781
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 3: you know, a thousand times a day, meeting new groups

782
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 3: of people, having them like do things, do things that

783
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 3: they like, and telling you that they like it. Just

784
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 3: it doesn't happen. But what the social media people have

785
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 3: done is create a fantastic simulation of that, which you

786
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 3: don't have to do any.

787
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 2: Of those fake same fake lie.

788
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 3: Just whack a picture up and count the likes. Every

789
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 3: one of those likes gives you a hit. And so

790
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 3: that's one side of the diction. The other side of

791
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 3: the diction is the doom scroll, which uses something called

792
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 3: this variable certainty variable reward schedule, which is what the

793
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 3: boys are getting with, whether they lose or not. The

794
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: variable reward schedule is the platform knows what you want

795
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 3: to see, but it doesn't give it to you every time.

796
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 3: So it shows you one thing you want to see,

797
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 3: then it shows you four or five things you don't

798
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 3: want to see, and then I'll show you something you

799
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 3: do want to see, and then I'll show you ten

800
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 3: things that you don't want to see.

801
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: You.

802
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,800
Speaker 3: That's right, So you don't never you'll never know whether

803
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 3: the next thing that comes up on the screen is

804
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,760
Speaker 3: actually going to be something you really really want to see.

805
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 3: And that significantly increases the amount of dopamine released in

806
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 3: using the product, which is why people will sit there

807
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 3: for hours doing it.

808
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 2: This is where the addiction stuff is.

809
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 3: That's right.

810
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: Mentally like, and look, I'm so excited to talk to

811
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: you about addiction because I'm that person that will be like,

812
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: why have I got my phone in my hand? And

813
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: while I was I squalling and I'm working on a

814
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,720
Speaker 1: manuscript at the moment, and I actually put my phone

815
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: in a completely different room so that it just has

816
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: no impact on and otherwise it just steals time.

817
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Well, all addictions steal time. That's their biggest

818
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 3: danger is they steal time. Every addiction sucks up time

819
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 3: that you would be otherwise you've been doing something productive.

820
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: She knows you was the beginning to talk about like

821
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: testosterone and risk and stuff. I was like, I've been skydiving.

822
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: I think I must be like into the risk stuff.

823
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: And then you were talking about the game and how

824
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: it was like the killing people. I was like, oh

825
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: my god, that feels horrible to me hearing that. So

826
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: for a second I thought I must be like really

827
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: into risk. And now I'm like, oh, maybe not. Okay,

828
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: we have to talk my all time favorite book, Yes,

829
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 1: and I need to tell you about how it came

830
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: into my life.

831
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 2: So Taming Toxic People has been out for a little

832
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: while and hasn't it.

833
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: But the way that it came back into my life

834
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: was I interviewed a crime fiction writer on this podcast.

835
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: Her name is Candace Fox.

836
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: She's wonderful, but I was so fascinating to get her

837
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: on the interview because she'd interviewed a serial killer on

838
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: death row in the seventies. There was a two killers

839
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: called the Toolbox Killers.

840
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: In America, and anyway, she had written to him. When

841
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 2: she was in America, she went to the.

842
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:04,399
Speaker 1: High security prison in I think San Francisco, had to

843
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: like pass all these you know, guards whatnot. She got

844
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: put in a room with him, a glassroom, nothing between them,

845
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: and she called it like a shark cave.

846
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 2: There was a sniper on him the whole time.

847
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, right, and I said, I've just got

848
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: to ask what's so fascinating to hear about his mind?

849
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: And she said, well, first of all, he wouldn't name

850
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: his victims.

851
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 2: He numbered them. And she said the bit that really

852
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 2: got me.

853
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 1: And this is what gets me onto psychpaths, even though

854
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 1: even though I know you're not writing about crimeral psychpaths,

855
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: it just made.

856
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: Me go, oh, this is carelessness of another human being.

857
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: And she was talking to him about one of his victims.

858
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: Her name was Andrea, and she said and he said, oh,

859
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: you know V three, victim three, and she goes, don't

860
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: you mean Andrea And he just flicked his hand and went, oh, yeah, her.

861
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: And she said the fact that he was just so

862
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: careless about.

863
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: And then he turned her and said, you know what,

864
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: in my whole life, I think he was in his

865
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: seventies on death row.

866
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: You guys have only been bad for five months.

867
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: And she said, just the way he was able to

868
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: have no like, so willing to take on no responsibility

869
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: for the bad stuff he'd done, said willingly would lie.

870
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: And he said to the point that it felt like

871
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: he was kind of coaxing her to be his next

872
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: probably girlfriend of.

873
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 2: Five he had five on the go.

874
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: And she described him as a sociopath. But when I

875
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: read Teaming Toxic People and I hear you describe that psychopaths, sociopath, narcissist, bully,

876
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: it's all the same.

877
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 3: Ballgame, right, It's all the same thing.

878
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: Talk to me about Tamy took self because this was

879
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: the book that as I was reading it, so yes,

880
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,439
Speaker 1: I just had that incredible experience hearing about a real

881
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: life serial kill. And then I was reading about the

882
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: psychology of yes, not criminal psychopaths, but psychopaths. I was

883
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: turning the page going, oh my goodness, this is so

884
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. And then, and I know, I'm positive

885
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: people said this to you. As I'm flipping the page,

886
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I've got one of them in my life.

887
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 3: Most people would know one the fundamental defining thing is

888
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 3: they have a complete lack of empathy, so totally. Empathy

889
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 3: is that thing that makes us want to work with

890
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 3: other humans. It helps us work with other humans because

891
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 3: it forces us to care what happens to them. Otherwise

892
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 3: we couldn't care less what happens. And it's defined by

893
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 3: the golden rule, which you find in every single religion

894
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 3: or major theory of thought of humans, every philosophy, which is,

895
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 3: do unto others as you would have done to you.

896
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 3: That's empathy. That is, have concern for other humans. Don't

897
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 3: do things to them that you wouldn't want done to you.

898
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 3: And most of us are wired that way. Our brains

899
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 3: are wirede that way. We can't help it. It's automatic.

900
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 3: It's an evolutiontionary advantage because it enables us to work

901
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 3: together with groups of strangers and be able to trust them.

902
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 2: And that's also how we how we survive, and how if.

903
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 3: We didn't do that, we couldn't We wouldn't be able

904
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 3: to trust another human being because we would always be

905
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 3: suspicious that they were about to kill us in our sleep. Totally.

906
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 3: So we know that every other human is wide like

907
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 3: we are, and that they won't do unnecessarily unpleasant things

908
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 3: to us because it hurts them to do that, and

909
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 3: it does, and that's what empathy is, and that's the

910
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 3: defining feature of it. Psych pat is they don't.

911
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 2: Have it both criminal and normal, and there's.

912
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 3: No point dividing them up there. It's just their circumstances

913
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 3: which divide them. They don't care about other human beings.

914
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 3: They couldn't care less about them other than as tools

915
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 3: to be manipulated.

916
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

917
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: The opening of this book, you talk about a tiger

918
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: kind of like sizing.

919
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 2: Up its meal whether it can be bought, And I

920
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 2: was like, oh my, oh my god.

921
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:00,479
Speaker 1: Pright.

922
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: But one thing I really.

923
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: Really love and it's really good for people listening, going, Okay,

924
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: if I've got one in my life, what are the

925
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: character traits? And you have this wonderful list of character

926
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: traits charming.

927
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yes, Initially they will be the most charming

928
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 3: person you've ever met. You get sucked in until the

929
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 3: point where they figure out either that you are sucked

930
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 3: in and therefore there's no need to bother anymore, or

931
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 3: you are of no value to them, and once again

932
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 3: there's no need to bother anymore, and then they'll just

933
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,240
Speaker 3: switch it all off, so the charm will just vanish.

934
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,399
Speaker 3: They'll be rude to you, they'll be aggressive to you.

935
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 3: They don't need to be nice to you anymore. But

936
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 3: up till that point, they are extremely talented at reflecting

937
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 3: back to you what they know you want to hear.

938
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 3: They are really really good at reading people. They have

939
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,479
Speaker 3: to be good at reading people because unlike every other human,

940
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 3: they can't sense what people are feeling. That's a key

941
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 3: part of empathy is that you can sense another person's emotions.

942
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 3: You know, it's not magic. You're reading lots of things

943
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 3: about the way they present and you. Because you can

944
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 3: experience those emotions, it means something to you. Because a

945
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 3: psychopath can't. They can't do that, and they can't yawn.

946
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 2: There's the yawned.

947
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 3: So a human, most normal humans, when they're in a

948
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 3: room with people in one person you want, they're all

949
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 3: you wwn because that's a transfer of that feeling. And

950
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 3: I suspect people even hearing this, he will much but

951
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 3: a psychopath doesn't. And and but that doesn't mean they won't.

952
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 3: They'll see everyone else you yawning, and they'll say, oh,

953
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 3: I guess I'm supposed to yawn. But it isn't second

954
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 3: nature them. And that's where they'll often slip up is

955
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 3: not in the yawning, but in failing to automatically respond.

956
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 3: Humans automatically respond to emotions, strong emotions, particularly other humans,

957
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 3: being hurt, watching a television show, seeing a disaster, intelevision,

958
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 3: something like that. People respond and that's why charities that

959
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 3: put up donations about things like that at that time

960
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 3: do so well, because they respond psychas look at that

961
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 3: and say, oh my god, it's affecting the humans. I

962
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 3: guess I'd better pretend to care. And so a lot

963
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 3: of their life is spent pretending to care so that

964
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 3: nobody catches them out. Being weird is how it would

965
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 3: be perceived by normal humans.

966
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: And you've described it as you can sometimes feel like

967
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 1: it just feels a bit off.

968
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 3: It feels off. The timing is off because with humans

969
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 3: it's an automatic thing. You can't you don't even think

970
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 3: about it. It's just it's happening. Because a psychophane has

971
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 3: to calculate, Oh I'm supposed to feel this, or at

972
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 3: least look like I feel this. That calculation gap feels off.

973
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 3: It feels like the timing is slightly wrong. Or you'll

974
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 3: catch them just not reacting at a time when you

975
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: would have hoped when people would normally react, you know,

976
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 3: so they'll do things like you might say something really sad, sorry,

977
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 3: I'm just I'm late. I've just come from my mother's funeral.

978
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 3: Now they have that good of excuse this morning, but

979
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 3: that would be that would evoke an emotional response in

980
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 3: the person, and they offer you some sort of condolence

981
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 3: or something. A psychopath might just breathe through that and think, Oh,

982
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 3: it's okay, you didn't inconvenience me, you know. So that'd

983
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 3: be what they'd be thinking, without paying any attention to

984
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 3: the reason why you were late, and because they have

985
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 3: no automatic response to that, so they actually have to

986
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 3: stop and think, oh, I guess she's going to be

987
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 3: sad about that. She's going to expect me to say

988
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 3: something nice about that.

989
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's when you start to and that's why

990
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,240
Speaker 1: reading this book I was I was in a situation

991
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: where there was just someone I was working with and

992
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 1: I was like, had an inkling. Yeah, But as I

993
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: was reading the book, I was like, Oh, it was

994
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: almost like I was waking up to this, seeing these

995
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: social cues.

996
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 2: That were almost being missed.

997
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: And then every now and then there'd be an outbursts,

998
00:49:58,080 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: like a weird, unexplainable.

999
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 3: It's usually a way to disguise and distract. Yeah, So

1000
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 3: it's not that they really passionately feel anything, it's just

1001
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 3: you're onto something about them, and they can distract you

1002
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 3: as an outburst.

1003
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, how amazing is David Gillespie. Do not worry, there

1004
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 1: is more to come of him. Next week we talk

1005
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: more about psychopaths and then we get into his brand

1006
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 1: new book Brain Reset, which tackles addiction, anxiety and depression

1007
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,439
Speaker 1: and white so prevalent at the moment, I can't wait

1008
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: for episode two.

1009
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 2: I really hope you love it, and I really hope

1010
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 2: you enjoyed this episode as well. You know the drill.

1011
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: Give it a like, subscribe comment if you like it,

1012
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: share it with your mates, because the more people that

1013
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: listen to this pod, the better.

1014
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 2: Big love.

1015
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: That's a wrap on another episode of Fearlessly Failing. As always,

1016
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: thank you to our guests, and let's continue the conversation

1017
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: on Instagram.

1018
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 2: I'm at Yumo lollaberry.

1019
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: This potty my word for podcast is available.

1020
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:06,759
Speaker 2: On all streaming platforms.

1021
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 1: I'd love it if you could subscribe, rate and comment,

1022
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 1: and of course spread the love