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Speaker 1: Now, last night we know that these tougher bail laws

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Speaker 1: past the Northern Territory Parliament following out cry from the

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Speaker 1: community around crime. But the reforms won't apply to offenses

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Speaker 1: involving improvised weapons like rocks and bottles. Now, the opposition's

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Speaker 1: amendment which we'd heard about yesterday morning calling for improvised

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Speaker 1: weapons to be included in those changes, well it didn't

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Speaker 1: get up. Now joining me on the line is the

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Speaker 1: CLP's member for Namajira, Bill Yan. Good morning to you, Bill.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katy, and good morning to your listeners. Bill.

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Speaker 1: The changes passed last night, but the push from the

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Speaker 1: CLP to have improvised weapons included it didn't get across

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Speaker 1: the line.

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Speaker 2: What happened, Yeah, Well, Katie said that the government bought

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Speaker 2: said those changes specifically around knives and control weapons under

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Speaker 2: the Act in and we bought an amendment to the

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Speaker 2: government's bar reform. Our first a member was to include

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Speaker 2: by defenders of it and didn't support that and voted

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Speaker 2: it down. So what we tried to do was to

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Speaker 2: at least meet on some middle ground and meet some

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Speaker 2: of those community expectations. So we asked that they include

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Speaker 2: what we're saying is improvised weapons. So those weapons of opportunity,

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Speaker 2: so offensive weapons, we asked that they be included as

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Speaker 2: part of that consideration. Now it sits within the Act.

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Speaker 2: It wouldn't have taken much change from Labor to include

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Speaker 2: that change. It picks up those things that sadly a

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Speaker 2: lot of people are seeing as weapons. Trading to hammers, screwdrivers,

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Speaker 2: the star pickets, smout models, all those things that people

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Speaker 2: every day are being threatened with, either at home or

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Speaker 2: at work or just out on the street. Labor didn't

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Speaker 2: support those changes.

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Speaker 1: So how disappointing is this for you after seeing just

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Speaker 1: over a week ago a local resident or you know,

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Speaker 1: we had the situation where there was that driver in

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Speaker 1: Alice Springs who'd suffered well lifelong injuries from a rock

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Speaker 1: throwing incident.

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Speaker 2: And that's right, Katie, Matt, Matt will get no succor

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Speaker 2: from these changes. So effectively, someone throws a rock and

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Speaker 2: seriously hurts somebody, they're going to start from a presumption

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Speaker 2: of a bail a rock which has the ability to

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Speaker 2: kill somebody in the right circumstances. So those offenders because

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Speaker 2: throwing a rock, you're not throwing a rock not to

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Speaker 2: hurt somebody. You're throwing a rock to cause some harm,

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Speaker 2: they won't fall under and be picked up by these

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Speaker 2: these bail changes. It look, it doesn't meet community expectations.

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Speaker 2: I was there at the rally last Saturday, and the

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Speaker 2: community expectation was for certainly some changes to the bail

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Speaker 2: lors to stop what we're seeing happening those revolving doors

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Speaker 2: of bail. But I think the community wanted to see

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Speaker 2: something a little bit more than just knives being picked

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Speaker 2: up and those control weapons which are hardly really ever

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Speaker 2: used in offensives seeing in a Territory bill. Look, the.

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Speaker 1: Discussion is now moving forward as well to what this

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Speaker 1: is going to mean when you look at the number

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Speaker 1: of offenders being on remand in jail, because we do

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Speaker 1: actually have, you know, quite a few people that are

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Speaker 1: committing knife crime. If you listen to what the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory government is saying right now, and we have you know,

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Speaker 1: we've certainly heard of so many situations where somebody's got

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Speaker 1: an aged weapon in the pressure releases that we receive

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Speaker 1: from the Northern Territory Police when there is an incident.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that we're going to see a surge

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Speaker 1: in numbers of people on remand within our correctional facilities.

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Speaker 2: Well, it was quite interesting, Katie. I listened to the

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Speaker 2: Attorney General on your show yesterday when you're asking this

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Speaker 2: same question, says there may be well, there may be not.

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Speaker 2: So I don't think the government really knows. But look,

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Speaker 2: if there's a surge in offenders ending up on remand

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Speaker 2: that's going to put the system under food of pressure.

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Speaker 2: And the government have known about it, these prison numbers

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Speaker 2: for years and years now, and they're chosen not doing

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Speaker 2: about it. It's just sort of buried the head and sand,

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Speaker 2: hoping that the problem will go away. Well, now the

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Speaker 2: problems well, and truly in their face. They need to

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Speaker 2: come up with some better old terms to putting people

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Speaker 2: in jail. There's a lot of people need to be

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Speaker 2: in jail while offenders need to be in jail to

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Speaker 2: protect the public. But they did not come up with

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Speaker 2: any alternatives with any work camps.

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Speaker 1: So do you think there are some alternatives?

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Speaker 2: Bill?

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Speaker 1: Do you think there are some alternatives other things that

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Speaker 1: you know that we could be doing, because I guess

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Speaker 1: that this is you know, this is the thing. At

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Speaker 1: this point in time, we know that the prison is

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Speaker 1: busting at the seams from what we are being told.

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Speaker 1: I know that you've spoken to us about this before,

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Speaker 1: about those correctional facilities being very full. So where can

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Speaker 1: the prisoners go? Well, what are some of those other options?

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Speaker 2: Well, the options, the options were put to government years

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Speaker 2: ago came going back four and five years. We were

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Speaker 2: talking about work camps in Catherine, over in Bora Lula

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Speaker 2: and out at two Weed to reduce the burden on

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Speaker 2: those larger custoder facilities and getting people back out on communities,

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Speaker 2: doing reparation work into those communities, and these places would

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Speaker 2: be managed by correctional services. Government chose not to do that,

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Speaker 2: and now they see themselves in the position that they are.

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Speaker 2: But they could expand electronic monitoring, expand community directions to

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Speaker 2: be able to get some of those really low level,

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Speaker 2: low risk defenders out of custody and rather than sitting

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Speaker 2: around and enjoying a bit of an easy life in jail,

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Speaker 2: getting back out the communities and doing some reparation work

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Speaker 2: and giving back to the people who've offended again. But

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Speaker 2: they have an invested in that.

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Speaker 1: Either, Bill, I want to ask My understanding is that

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Speaker 1: there are some prisoners at the Palmerston Watchhouse. I've also

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Speaker 1: been told that they are getting organized to basically ramp

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Speaker 1: up the Peter McCauley Center if required. And I am

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Speaker 1: going to be catching up with the Police Association in

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Speaker 1: a couple of minutes and put this question to them

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Speaker 1: as well. But what do you know at this point?

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Speaker 2: Well, all I know is that they're using the Palmeston

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Speaker 2: Watchhouse to do overflow from the prison here in Darwin,

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Speaker 2: and of course in Al Springs has been going on

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Speaker 2: for quite some time. There've been housing prisoners in the

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Speaker 2: watchhouse because the prison is that capacity as six hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty. They've got the no vacancy sign out that

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Speaker 2: there's no bedsleft. So that puts further pressure on corrections

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Speaker 2: because you can't put the burden on police to manage

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Speaker 2: these prisoners in the watchhouse. The responsibility correctional services, So

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Speaker 2: they're taking correctional services offices out of the prisons now

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Speaker 2: to manage and look after prisons in the watchhouse. So

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Speaker 2: it creates a situation where they're depleting rosters in the

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Speaker 2: prisons to manage the watchhouse, and you can't continue to

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Speaker 2: do that. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's not

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Speaker 2: sustainable long term.

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Speaker 1: And from your experience, Bill, what does it mean as

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Speaker 1: well when it comes to the delivery of programs in

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Speaker 1: correctional facilities, when you know when they are this full,

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Speaker 1: does it mean that you know that you're still able

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Speaker 1: to deliver rehabilitation programs?

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Speaker 2: Well, the governments for a long time has been focused

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Speaker 2: on those high M programs, so those serious bile offenders

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Speaker 2: and sex offenders, but when you look at the prison population,

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Speaker 2: the majority there for aggravated assaultant domestic violence related defenses

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Speaker 2: and corrections have never been resourced to be able to

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Speaker 2: deliver effective programs that cable because it's so big and

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Speaker 2: we'll see it's short term turnaround, So people are getting

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Speaker 2: sentenced to three and six months. The waiting list is

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Speaker 2: so long it'll take years to try and catch up.

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Speaker 2: Because that sector of corrections has not been resourced correctly.

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Speaker 2: They rely on outside providers which do a great job there.

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Speaker 2: Programs are great, but they're limited in their capability, so

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Speaker 2: they can't do those hundreds of we're talking about. They

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Speaker 2: can do the tens and twenties two or three times

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Speaker 2: a year, and it just it doesn't get to all

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Speaker 2: those people that need those programs.

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Speaker 1: Bill, I want to ask you. The Northern Territory Government

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Speaker 1: is out this morning as we speak, announcing that they're

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Speaker 1: going to be undertaking what they are calling progressive alcohol reforms,

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Speaker 1: which focus on long term change and local decision making.

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Speaker 1: Today the Northern Territory government's announcing what they're calling another

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Speaker 1: evidence based course of action, a voluntary buy back scheme

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Speaker 1: of grocery store liquor licenses across the Northern Territory. So

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Speaker 1: for the next four weeks, the voluntary buyback scheme is

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Speaker 1: going to be in place where grocery store licensees may

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Speaker 1: express an interest for the government to purchase their liquor license.

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Speaker 1: So all offers are going to be made commercial in confidence.

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Speaker 1: The purpose of the EOI, according to the statement by

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory Government, is to reduce the number of

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Speaker 1: alcohol takeaway outlets across the territory. As they say, evidence

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Speaker 1: shows the density of liquor outly outlets contribute substantially to

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Speaker 1: alcohol related harms and take away out let's pose the

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Speaker 1: highest risk. What do you make of this?

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Speaker 2: Okay, this is policy by stealth when you think about it.

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Speaker 2: Previously there was that twenty five percent real boarding for

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Speaker 2: those literal outlets attached to supermarkets, and those numbers are

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Speaker 2: reportable every twelve months because there's ebbs and flowers in

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Speaker 2: the sales cycle. So most of those little supermarkets were

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Speaker 2: okay with that twelve month reporting period. They kept an

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Speaker 2: eye on their figures and they knew that some months

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Speaker 2: they'd be said higher in sales, some months I'd be low,

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Speaker 2: and it sort of average itself out over the twelve months.

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Speaker 2: Well what lay did? They changed the change the rules.

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Speaker 2: I moved the goal post on that one. And now

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Speaker 2: these little supermarkes you got to report every quarter, and

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Speaker 2: of course those ebbs and flowers that happen in that

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Speaker 2: quarter certainly and directly affect their sales. And the government

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Speaker 2: using this now as a leader to say, well, if

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Speaker 2: you're going to be hitting that twenty five percent, we're

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Speaker 2: going to find You're seen just recently that supermarket out

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Speaker 2: of Zicoal is closing its fool shop to make sure

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Speaker 2: it stays under the cap. So now labor's saying, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: you're you're in thread of breaching that twenty five percent,

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Speaker 2: but will help you out, We'll buy back your licenses.

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Speaker 2: But does it then make those businesses viable. There's a

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Speaker 2: supermarket doesn't need to have the takeaway outlet attached to

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Speaker 2: it to make the business viable. If you take it away,

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Speaker 2: will that business survive longer term as just a straight

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Speaker 2: up supermarket. That's yet to be seen. What it may

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Speaker 2: have the inrovert and effect of closing some of those

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Speaker 2: smaller supermarkets out of those communities.

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Speaker 1: Are we in a situation where we do have too

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Speaker 1: many liquor outlets around around the Northern territory.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is a This is a government that always

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Speaker 2: focuses on supply rather than actually looking at demand. So

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Speaker 2: rather than targeting the people who are selling the stuff,

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Speaker 2: and we actually target the problem drinkers and do some

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Speaker 2: work in that space, because we're seeing everybody else being

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Speaker 2: punished for issues created by the queue and that government

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Speaker 2: loves to do this and it does it all the time.

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Speaker 2: We've seen it with the alcohol restrictions in our springs.

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Speaker 2: Everybody has to abide by those restrictions because of the

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Speaker 2: issues of the few, and the rest of us have

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Speaker 2: to pay the price. So rather than target the entire

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Speaker 2: populace about, we look at helping those people who have

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Speaker 2: those problems with our whole and doing something to help

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Speaker 2: them so we can actually then reduce the harm cause

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Speaker 2: because those drinkers, even if there's a reduction in outlets,

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Speaker 2: don't find our whole somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is the thing, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: You know we're not going to get rid of the problem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean they are still going

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Speaker 1: to get their hands on alcohol. That's the whole point,

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Speaker 1: and that is the whole concern. Bill Yan. Always appreciate

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Speaker 1: your time, mate, We are going to have to leave it. There.

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Speaker 1: Anything happening this morning in parliament though, that we should

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Speaker 1: be aware of, just quickly.

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Speaker 2: Look, there's something that's come up. There's something really concerning

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Speaker 2: that came up from Saturday. The Opposition was contacted by

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Speaker 2: a public servant a couple of days ago who was

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Speaker 2: admonished by the apartment that they worked for for attending

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Speaker 2: the rally on Saturday. So the public servant said the

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Speaker 2: correspondence they got. They felt quite threatened. They thought it

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Speaker 2: was illegal. We're going to be pursuing that today.

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Speaker 1: Hang on a second, so somebody got so what happened

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Speaker 1: a public servant because they've attended the rally, they're now

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Speaker 1: in trouble with work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems that way. They were admonished by their department.

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Speaker 2: That is a worry, Katie. We're going to be following

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Speaker 2: up on that as a matter of priority because that

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Speaker 2: impinges on the basic rights of a person. The person

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Speaker 2: in question wasn't at work on the day off, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and got admonished for attending the rallies.

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Speaker 1: Interested to find out what they say here, Bill, because

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Speaker 1: I know that there were other public servants who actually

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Speaker 1: wanted to attend that rally on the weekend. I personally

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Speaker 1: know a number of them who wanted to attend and

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Speaker 1: they felt they couldn't because they were very concerned that

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Speaker 1: they would end up in trouble with work. So I'm

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Speaker 1: very keen to find out what the outcome is here.

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Speaker 2: As soon as we know, Katie will let you know.

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Speaker 2: This just shows a government that is so hell bent

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Speaker 2: on covering up and not allowing public discussion, and now

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Speaker 2: on public discourse and allowing public servants to go to

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Speaker 2: do what they sort of feel they might like to

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Speaker 2: do on their days off. Just because you're a public servant,

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Speaker 2: you don't give up all your rights. You're allowed to

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Speaker 2: come out and the criticized to do a few things,

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Speaker 2: but to impinge on the rights of people because you

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Speaker 2: don't like.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's be bloody honest, Bill. You know, like, at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, if you're a public servant,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't stop you from getting broken into, doesn't stop

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Speaker 1: you from having a vehicle stolen, or from suffering from

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Speaker 1: some of the impacts that we're seeing with crime. So

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Speaker 1: I think that if you're a public servant and you

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Speaker 1: want to attend that rally, it's a peaceful rally, no

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Speaker 1: one's broken the law or any kind of rules. Why

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Speaker 1: shouldn't it be able to go along?

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Speaker 2: That's right. So that's why we're working on this at

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Speaker 2: the moment, Katie, because this is absolutely disgusting behavior by

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Speaker 2: government if they've done this and whatever they have happened

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Speaker 2: to have done. So, yeah, look where I'm certainly looking

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Speaker 2: at it very very closely, working with the person in question,

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Speaker 2: and there may be some more embarrassing questions of this

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Speaker 2: government if they're starting to impinge on the rights of

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Speaker 2: public servants going about things that they're allowed to do.

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Speaker 1: Well, Bill Yam, please keep us up to date. Mate,

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Speaker 1: Always appreciate your time. Thanks so much for chatting with me.

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Speaker 1: This morning.

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Speaker 2: Cheers Katie, thank you,