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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, we all have our achilles here when it comes

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Speaker 2: to self control, but what we know is that there

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Speaker 2: are different tools we can use to improve our self control.

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Speaker 2: And these different things we can do, they're teachable, their

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Speaker 2: strategies are often easy to implement them. So I talk

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Speaker 2: to my kids about the different ways that they can

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Speaker 2: manage the temptation when it exists.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Good.

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Speaker 3: This is doctor Justin Coulson. I've written six books about

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Speaker 3: raising happy families, and I'm the founder of Happy Families

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Speaker 3: dot com dot u oh, and my wife Kylie and

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Speaker 3: I are the parents of six children. Because at school

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Speaker 3: holidays around most of the country at the moment, Kylie

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Speaker 3: and I are taking a bit of a break so

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Speaker 3: that we can have some time with our kids. Hopefully

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Speaker 3: you're going to do the same with yours. What we're

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Speaker 3: doing though with the podcast is we are sharing highlights

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Speaker 3: some of the best bits over the last couple of

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Speaker 3: years where we've had great conversations with people. And because

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Speaker 3: so many people have discovered the podcast, just recently. There's

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Speaker 3: a good chance you might not have heard these conversations.

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Speaker 3: The conversations were an hour long. We're obviously shrinking them

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Speaker 3: right down and just giving you a couple of snippets

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Speaker 3: a couple of highlights from those conversations. But today one

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Speaker 3: of my favorite interviews of all time. This was episode

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Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty eight of a Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 3: I spoke with a psychology professor at the University of Michigan.

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Speaker 3: He runs the Emotion of Self Control lab there and

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Speaker 3: his name is Ethan Cross. That's Cross with a K.

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Speaker 3: Professor Ethan Cross has been featured in pretty much every

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Speaker 3: publication that's out there. He's got a brand new book

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Speaker 3: out called Chatter and Ethan and I talked at some

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Speaker 3: length about some of the best strategies to develop discipline

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Speaker 3: and self control for us and for our kids.

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Speaker 2: So there are a boatload of different strategies that people

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Speaker 2: can use to exert self control, both children and adults.

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Speaker 2: And Den kin't crete about what I mean by that.

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Speaker 2: We know, for example, that when people are tempted to

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Speaker 2: act in particular ways, or when they're trying to control

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Speaker 2: their emotions, diverting their attention can be really powerful right

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Speaker 2: as a short term fix. So you might want to

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Speaker 2: have a person if something is bothering us or tempting us,

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Speaker 2: let's focus on something else. And for young children in particular,

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Speaker 2: diverting attention can be a powerful tool if they're looking

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Speaker 2: at a treat. For example, in the marshmallow studies, like

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Speaker 2: one of the best ways to get kids to wait

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Speaker 2: longer was to put a little box on top of

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Speaker 2: the marshmallow so the kids couldn't see it, or to

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Speaker 2: have the child think about other things, think fun thoughts

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Speaker 2: about being on the playground with mommy pushing me on

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Speaker 2: the swing. So diverting our attention away from a thing

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Speaker 2: that's tempting or bothering us can be one kind of tool.

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Speaker 2: Another kind of tool deals with the ability of the

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Speaker 2: mind to change the way we think about things. So

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Speaker 2: we did a study several years ago go. It was

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Speaker 2: a brain imaging experiment in which we were trying to

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Speaker 2: look at how people can reduce craving responses to things

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Speaker 2: like pizza or drugs. Right, we see these temptations, we

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Speaker 2: desperately want them, and so in one condition we've had

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Speaker 2: people just look it up an image of a delicious

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Speaker 2: looking piece of pizza, and in another condition, we had

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Speaker 2: them imagine that a cockerroach ha just crawled across the pizzas.

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Speaker 2: And so that's just an example of the power of

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Speaker 2: the mind to transform the way we think about things,

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Speaker 2: and how we change the way we think can change

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Speaker 2: the way we feel. That is the basis of cognitive

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Speaker 2: therapy and cognitive interventions to change our mood.

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Speaker 3: So, in a nutshell, what we want to do with

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Speaker 3: our children is we want to either devert their attention

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Speaker 3: so they're not even thinking about it, or make it invisible,

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Speaker 3: like literally pick it up and move it, or pick

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Speaker 3: your child up and move your child. And this will

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Speaker 3: obviously work a lot easier with younger children, but you

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Speaker 3: can still make stuff invisible. They usually look at you, Oh,

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Speaker 3: I don't believe you're taking that away, But technically that's

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Speaker 3: not self control, that's parent control. Nevertheless, it will reduce

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Speaker 3: the challenge that you're facing.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the way you're describing it right is

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Speaker 2: the parent is being the agent of control. This parent control.

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Speaker 2: But what we also can do, and one of the

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Speaker 2: things we're exploring now is teaching kids to do this

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Speaker 2: on their own. And so one of the strike. If

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Speaker 2: you look back at some of those early marshmallow studies,

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Speaker 2: what you see is that some kids spontaneously do this.

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Speaker 2: Some kids close their you can't see me. Now your

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Speaker 2: listeners can't see me, But I'm mimicking what they do.

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Speaker 2: Some kids put their hand over their eyes. One girl

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Speaker 2: had really long hair and she flipped it so she

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Speaker 2: couldn't see the marshmallow in front of her. Another kid

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Speaker 2: told himself a story, an elaborate story with imaginary friends.

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Speaker 2: And so these are all different tools that kids are

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Speaker 2: doing on their own. And so as parents, we possess

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Speaker 2: the ability to essentially give kids the tools by distracting

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Speaker 2: them or or prompting them to think different.

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Speaker 4: Hey, that person's bothering you at the schoolyard, but let's

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Speaker 4: look at the big picture, Maya or Danny. You know what,

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Speaker 4: there's lots of friends. You don't have to talk with

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Speaker 4: that person, So we could shift their perspective. But what

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Speaker 4: we can also do is we can teach children to

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Speaker 4: do this on their own.

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Speaker 3: I'm speaking with Professor Ethan Cross from the University of Michigan.

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Speaker 3: He runs the Emotion and Self Control Lab. More in

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Speaker 3: just a second.

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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 3: For a happier family, try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 3: a happy family doesn't just happen. Details at happy families

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Speaker 3: dot com dot au. It's the Happy Families Podcast, the

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Speaker 3: podcast for the typeop parent who just one's answers Now.

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Speaker 3: I hope that you're enjoying our highlights real as we

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Speaker 3: enjoy the Easter holidays. Talking right now with Professor Ethan

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Speaker 3: Cross from the University of Michigan about emotions and self control.

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Speaker 3: If you were to rattle off, let's say three self

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Speaker 3: control tips, the top three that come to mind for

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Speaker 3: children who are somewhere around four, five, six, seven years

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Speaker 3: of age, you know, those elementary schools, those early primary

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Speaker 3: school years. What kind of tips would you give parents

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Speaker 3: if they want to help their kids to develop the

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Speaker 3: self control to not eat the marshmallow or the pretzel

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Speaker 3: or the raisin. Right where do they go?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think one is attention. So teaching them how

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Speaker 2: to divert their attention away from whatever's tempting them and

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Speaker 2: give themselves something to focus on is even more powerful.

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Speaker 2: So really get them to focus in on something that's

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Speaker 2: equally engaging, but not the thing that's tempting them So

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Speaker 2: if you don't want them to watch TV, give them

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Speaker 2: a really fun buzzle to work on or something like that,

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Speaker 2: or problem to work on. Another thing is changing the

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Speaker 2: way they think about something. So if they're looking at

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Speaker 2: the candy and they really want to eat it, asks

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Speaker 2: them to imagine, well, you know, imagine that. I guess

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Speaker 2: kids aren't tempted by bread. What is a candy basically

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Speaker 2: mostly right? I mean, imagine that someone stepped on it,

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Speaker 2: you know, or those kinds of transformations can be powerful, right,

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Speaker 2: So don't think about it as a marshmallow. Think about

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Speaker 2: it as a puffy cloud, right, So play with it

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Speaker 2: in your head. And importantly, when you play with it,

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Speaker 2: don't think about the things that are most Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to think about how it's going to taste.

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Speaker 2: If you've talked to your child about the negative health

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Speaker 2: implications of eating too much candy or negative health implications

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Speaker 2: for a child like tummy aches, right, not feeling good after,

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Speaker 2: have them think about that. So, you know, think about

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Speaker 2: the fact that too many marshmallows can make you not

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Speaker 2: so healthy and that's not a good thing.

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Speaker 4: You have to go to the.

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Speaker 2: Doctor and so forth and so on. A third strategy

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Speaker 2: you can use to give you. The last one is

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Speaker 2: you can try something called what we've called the Batman effect.

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Speaker 2: So have a child pretend find their favorite superhero and

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Speaker 2: so superheroes are usually generally really good at exercising trained

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Speaker 2: right and being able to do good things in the world.

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Speaker 2: And so in some studies, what a colleague of Mind

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Speaker 2: Sephanie Carlson has found is that having children imagine they're

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Speaker 2: superhero and use their name, Imagine you're Batman and say

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Speaker 2: what would Batman do right now? Would Batman be able

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Speaker 2: to not eat the marshmallow? Or Dora the Explorer?

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Speaker 4: What would Dora do?

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Speaker 2: That can be really powerful transports them into this other

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Speaker 2: role which gives them some distance from the temptation and

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Speaker 2: also this superpower.

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Speaker 4: To restrain it.

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Speaker 2: And so that's been a fun strategy that the kids

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Speaker 2: have been able to benefit from in some experiments.

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Speaker 3: I love the Batman effect. And what I really love

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Speaker 3: about that that piece of research is well, first of all,

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Speaker 3: we're looking at how people who speak to themselves in

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Speaker 3: that sort of alter ego way. You know, what would

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Speaker 3: Batman do, what would Wonder Woman do? What would the

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Speaker 3: bill to do? Versus come on Ethan, You've got this

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Speaker 3: versus know what I would do? You know, these three

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Speaker 3: different conditions, and you found in this study that kids

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Speaker 3: persevered longer. They just they had more motivation, they had

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Speaker 3: a greater level of self control and tenacity. So I've

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Speaker 3: been talking to adults about that and saying, when you're

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Speaker 3: up against something where you don't want to exert the

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Speaker 3: kind of control that's necessary, or where you're struggling, or

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Speaker 3: you don't want to persevere, or you're ready to explode

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Speaker 3: your children, and you just need to regulate your emotions.

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Speaker 3: Don't necessarily think about what Batman would do, but think

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Speaker 3: about who your inner mental mentor might be. You know,

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Speaker 3: think of Ethan Cross or many people, unfortunately for me,

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Speaker 3: will say that I just think about what you would

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Speaker 3: do if you or what I would do if you

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Speaker 3: were watching me. I know that ancient and modern traditions

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Speaker 3: have encouraged that. So there's the Christian tradition of wearing

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Speaker 3: the WWJD bracelet What would Jesus do? And I think that,

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's a kind of a self control strategy, really,

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Speaker 3: isn't It's a psychological or self distancing strategy.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know this idea of distance. Really, what it

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Speaker 2: boils down to is that it's almost like yourself a

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Speaker 2: time out in the moment. So it's this ability. When

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Speaker 2: we experience strong emotions, they often narrow our attention in

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Speaker 2: on exactly what it is that's driving those responses, and

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Speaker 2: that zooming in can make it really difficult to take

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Speaker 2: the broader picture into account. If I am too intolerant

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Speaker 2: with my children, how might that affect them long term?

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Speaker 2: So this ability to just hit stop for a moment

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Speaker 2: and zoom out can be really powerful, and there's lots

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Speaker 2: of research which shows that. And in fact, this is

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Speaker 2: a project that where we've been working on for the

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Speaker 2: past five years. It's called the Toolbox Project. For the

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Speaker 2: past ten years or so, I've been teaching a class

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Speaker 2: here may a little bit less than ten years called

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Speaker 2: the Science of Self Control to University Michigan undergrads, And

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Speaker 2: it's essentially science's great as hits when it comes to

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Speaker 2: what we've learned over the past fifty years about how

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Speaker 2: to control our emotions, our thoughts, our behaviors. And it's

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Speaker 2: always a really fun class to teach. The students love

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Speaker 2: the material, they're engaged, and the way it works is

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Speaker 2: every week, students come in, they read stuff, and I

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Speaker 2: pepper them with questions. And on the final day we

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Speaker 2: reverse the roles. They come in with questions for me.

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Speaker 2: It's their last day. Here's what's on my mind. Now

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Speaker 2: that I've gone through the whole literature, I've digested it,

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Speaker 2: and so forth. And about five years ago, this one

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Speaker 2: girl named Ariel. She raised her hand like really defiantly

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Speaker 2: as soon as the class started to wanting to be

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Speaker 2: called on. And so I called on her, and she says,

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Speaker 2: why are we learning about this now? I go, well,

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Speaker 2: what do you mean? She goes, well, you know, we've

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Speaker 2: gone over all of these different strategies that exist, dozens

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Speaker 2: of strategies that can help us be happier, healthier, get

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Speaker 2: better jobs, and so forth. Why did anyone teach us

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Speaker 2: about this earlier on in life when it could have

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Speaker 2: helped us, like when we were kids or adolescents. And

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Speaker 2: so the first thing I said was, fear not. Life

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Speaker 2: is not over. You will still have opportunities to use

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Speaker 2: these strategies once you leave college. Uh. And but but

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Speaker 2: then I did something I don't want to say it was,

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Speaker 2: it was slightly cowardly. I did what many politicians do

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Speaker 2: when they don't have a good answer to a question.

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Speaker 2: I deflected and I threw it back to the class

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Speaker 2: and I said, well, what other people think, why why

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Speaker 2: haven't you learned about this yet? And the reason I

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Speaker 2: did that was because I didn't have a good answer

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Speaker 2: to that question. And so it got me thinking a

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Speaker 2: lot about why aren't we teaching kids about what we

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Speaker 2: know about how how the mind works when it comes

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Speaker 2: to self control. We teach children about how the digestive

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Speaker 2: system works. We teach them about geometry, we teach them

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Speaker 2: about social studies. These are just concepts. These are these

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Speaker 2: are topics that we think are important, and so they're

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Speaker 2: in the they're in the kind of canon of what

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Speaker 2: we expose them to in in school. Well, the mind

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Speaker 2: seems kind of important and we've learned about it, so

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Speaker 2: why aren't we also teaching them about this? And so

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Speaker 2: fast forward five years. What we've been doing is a

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Speaker 2: group of scientists like myself have paired up with educational

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Speaker 2: experts curriculum designers to essentially take the science of self control,

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Speaker 2: what do we know about the different tools that exist,

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Speaker 2: and we've translated that into a curriculum for middle and

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Speaker 2: high school kids. So a little bit older than the

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Speaker 2: ages that you were asking about. But the idea was

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Speaker 2: that this was a good place to start, and so

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Speaker 2: we took the science which can be filled with complicated

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Speaker 2: terms that scientists love to use, but we've made it

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Speaker 2: simple and with engaging exercises. And what we're doing now

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Speaker 2: is we are looking at, well, what are the implications

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Speaker 2: of teaching children about these strategies. In some of our

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Speaker 2: early studies, we know we have dated to show that

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Speaker 2: the kids who go through this curriculum, they do in

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Speaker 2: fact learn the material. So you do a test at

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Speaker 2: the beginning and at the end of the curriculum their

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Speaker 2: knowledge of the science of self control increases. And what

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Speaker 2: we're getting ready to do with about ten thousand students

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Speaker 2: next year is we're going to test to see what

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Speaker 2: effect there's learning about these strategies have on these students'

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Speaker 2: ability to regulate themselves down the road in life. And

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Speaker 2: the hypothesis the prediction is that knowing about these strategies

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Speaker 2: should provide these kids with resources that they could draw

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Speaker 2: upon when they need them.

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Speaker 3: That's Professor Ethan Cross. You can hear the full interview

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Speaker 3: that I had with Ethan on episode one hundred and

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Speaker 3: twenty eight of the Parenting in Perspective podcast series on

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Speaker 3: the Happy Families podcast, we hope that you've enjoyed everything

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Speaker 3: that you've heard throughout the break as we've shared our

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Speaker 3: highlights and some great conversations and interviews with people that

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Speaker 3: we've done over the years. If you are enjoying the podcast, please,

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Speaker 3: as always later writing and reviews so that others can

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Speaker 3: find out about the podcast. We appreciate as always our

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Speaker 3: executive producer from the great work that he does. His

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Speaker 3: name is Craig Bruce and Justin Ruhland is the producer

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Speaker 3: of the podcast. He's from Bridge Media. If you'd like

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Speaker 3: morofoe about how your family can be happier, all you

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Speaker 3: need to do is jump onto our Facebook page Dr

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Speaker 3: Justin Colson's Happy Families or visit happyfamilies dot com dot

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Speaker 3: a u