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Speaker 1: While not rated explicit, the contents of this podcast episode

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Speaker 1: do contain themes that will not be suitable for younger listeners.

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Speaker 1: Parental discretion is advised. The contents of this podcast episode

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Speaker 1: may be inappropriate for young listeners. It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers.

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Speaker 1: Now vulnerable children and adolescents are being actively encouraged to

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Speaker 1: take their own lives by sexual extortionists, with tragic cases

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Speaker 1: here in Australia and the US and a range of

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Speaker 1: other countries where we're seeing young people being hurt and

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Speaker 1: worse as a result of what happens online. And at

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Speaker 1: the moment, Julie Inman Grant, Australia's e Safety Commissioner, along

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Speaker 1: with a lot of other online safety experts and child

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Speaker 1: abuse investigators, are really cracking down hard, slamming social media

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Speaker 1: giants for not doing the basics to protect users from

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Speaker 1: I don't know how else to say it. Just no,

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Speaker 1: I can't say the words I was going to say

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Speaker 1: that would be inappropriate for this podcast. Just unscrupulous, ruthless

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Speaker 1: scammers who are trapping children into sending intimate images and

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Speaker 1: then threatening to expose them to family and friends. There

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Speaker 1: are hundreds, if not more, reports being made to federal

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Speaker 1: police every month of children who have shared intimate images

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Speaker 1: to overseas based scammers who are then using hacked and

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Speaker 1: fraudulent social media accounts to extort money and more from

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Speaker 1: the people who have been scammed. We often speak with

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Speaker 1: the Australian Senate Account of Child Exploitation or ACE on

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Speaker 1: the podcast about these scams and what parents can do.

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Speaker 1: They're known as honey traps. Today, I'm very very grateful

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Speaker 1: to be joined by somebody who has unfortunately been a

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Speaker 1: victim of one of these honey traps, one of these

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Speaker 1: sextortion attempts. I'm joined by Hailey, mum to five kids,

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Speaker 1: and Jake, a sixteen year old, both from Townsville, who

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Speaker 1: have unfortunately fallen victim to one of these scams. Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me on the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 1: Haley and Jake. Now we've changed your names for privacy,

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Speaker 1: and we've also changed the name of the place that

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Speaker 1: you're from, just so that you can have some anonymity

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Speaker 1: here and talk freely. Can I start with you, Jake,

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Speaker 1: You're sixteen years old. You were fifteen when this happened?

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Speaker 1: Can you describe where you were, what you were doing,

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Speaker 1: and essentially what happened to end up in this online

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Speaker 1: honey trap.

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Speaker 3: They had just come home from school and I got

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Speaker 3: in a conversation with someone I thought was another girl,

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Speaker 3: and that night it turned into something more graphic.

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Speaker 1: So just before we get into that night, you've come

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Speaker 1: home from school and you got into a conversation with

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Speaker 1: this girl, did you think that you knew her? Did

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Speaker 1: she just slide into your DMS and say hi? Like,

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Speaker 1: what was the initial beginning of the conversation? Where did

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Speaker 1: it come from?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just split into DM and just started talking.

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Speaker 1: And so what did she say?

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Speaker 2: Went from that at high.

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Speaker 4: And eventually started asking a lot about snapchat and I

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Speaker 4: went along with it.

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Speaker 1: What made you go along with it? She was obviously

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Speaker 1: somebody that you you didn't know at this point, but

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Speaker 1: what she's good looking and she's conversational, and you're a

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Speaker 1: sixteen year old, fifty year old boy, right.

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Speaker 4: That thought from the picture I say further into more

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Speaker 4: graphic pictures and messages.

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Speaker 1: So when you say that she sent you more graphic

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Speaker 1: pictures and messages, you suggesting that she became explicit. She

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Speaker 1: was sending nude photos or something like that to you. Yeah, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so as a fifteen year old boy, you're getting

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Speaker 1: these messages and what are you thinking? Are you thinking

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Speaker 1: all my Christmases have come at once? Or this is

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Speaker 1: dodgy or I can't wait to tell the guys at

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Speaker 1: school what happened last night? Like what's going on for

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Speaker 1: you in your head while this is happening.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of mixed of emotions and different feelings,

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Speaker 2: but I thought I'll just go with it then turn

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Speaker 2: into something much worse and eventually finding out, oh, is

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Speaker 2: it wasn't actually a girl, It was completely different.

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Speaker 1: Something happens during the evening as you're messaging this person

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Speaker 1: and she and I'm using she in inverted commerce because

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Speaker 1: it obviously wasn't who you thought it was. Is sending

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Speaker 1: you these images? Did she ask you for images of yourself?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Then, and I go along with it.

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Speaker 1: Because that's what you do. And I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to soften this conversation for you to

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Speaker 1: make this any easier. I know it's a hard conversation

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Speaker 1: to have, but when I talk to a lot of

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Speaker 1: adults about what their kids are doing. The adults will

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Speaker 1: often say, I don't know why the kids would go

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Speaker 1: along with this, like why would they go with it?

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Speaker 1: To use your words? Surely they'd say stop, Surely they'd

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Speaker 1: say this is crazy. But you did exactly what so

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Speaker 1: many kids do, and you just went with it. Is

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Speaker 1: there part of you that's just thinking maybe this is real?

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Speaker 2: Yes, sometimes you know that it's real, but then sometimes wondering, ah,

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Speaker 2: is it real or is it not? And in that

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Speaker 2: situation it was not.

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Speaker 1: Did you end up sending images, Jake? Yes, once you

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Speaker 1: sent the images?

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Speaker 4: What happened about five minutes. It was at that point

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Speaker 4: I felt something was under wrong. And about the next

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Speaker 4: minute after I thought that this person has said ruin

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Speaker 4: your life and I'm going to.

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Speaker 2: Send these photos to everyone, and they were threatening to

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Speaker 2: send family, friends, to everyone.

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Speaker 1: Even your godmother. Describe the feeling that you had when

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Speaker 1: you realized what you just.

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Speaker 2: Fam a victim to Terrified, definitely terrified, No, no clue,

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Speaker 2: what clue?

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Speaker 4: Was?

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Speaker 2: Never happened?

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Speaker 1: They've threatened to ruin your life. Were there any demands made?

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Speaker 2: There wasn't. They just said we're ruined your life.

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Speaker 1: So this isn't even about money at this point, this

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Speaker 1: is just we've got the images, you're gone. What did

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Speaker 1: you do once this terror hit you?

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Speaker 2: Straight away? On a mom and a lot of feelings.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know if I wanted to do what had happened,

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Speaker 2: because I was like get in trouble, yelled at which

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Speaker 2: no one liked, but I knew it because if I didn't,

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Speaker 2: it would have gone terror.

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Speaker 1: So what'd you say, Jake, You've stepped into mum Hayley's

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Speaker 1: room or living room or the kitchen. Where where was she?

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Speaker 1: And what did you say?

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Speaker 2: Oh? She she was out helping one of my siblings

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Speaker 2: with their homework.

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Speaker 4: I came out. She saw the look in the face

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Speaker 4: that something bad had happened, and she she didn't know

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Speaker 4: what and it Eventually I asked her to come into

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Speaker 4: her room and told them wanted and she was on it.

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Speaker 4: But she helped be helped with blocking this person whoever

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Speaker 4: they were in, deleting Snapchat, deleting Instagram, deleting all these

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Speaker 4: social network and eventually had no other choice the police

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Speaker 4: and we called them and once they picked up, we

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Speaker 4: explained exactly what happened and we asked for help and

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Speaker 4: received nothing. We were not told, oh we just delete

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Speaker 4: the againnt just go on with your life, and they

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Speaker 4: just hung up. There was nothing that did.

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Speaker 5: So it was up me and my mum who stopped

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Speaker 5: all of them.

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Speaker 1: Haley, I want to come to you now. Jake steps

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Speaker 1: into the room and says I need to talk You.

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Speaker 1: Obviously can tell from his face that things are not

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Speaker 1: good right now. When he explains to you what has happened,

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Speaker 1: how do you react the panic?

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Speaker 6: He was as white as I've never seen anything like it.

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Speaker 6: I've been a nurse for a long time, and his

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Speaker 6: face I've never.

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Speaker 2: Seen anything just terrifying.

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Speaker 6: Oh, the panic in his voice. Instinct just told me

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Speaker 6: to not to go hardcore parent on him and bring

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Speaker 6: the hammer down, but just sort of go into Riceles's management.

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Speaker 6: I think I'm just helping get through it.

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Speaker 1: Once you began to address things with Jake, was there

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Speaker 1: any sense of safety, any sense of completion, any sense

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Speaker 1: that okay, we can get through this, or was it

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Speaker 1: literally just anything could happen now? We don't even know

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Speaker 1: what's next.

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Speaker 6: It was sort of all making it up as we

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Speaker 6: went along. We just didn't have any idea of how

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Speaker 6: to manage it or what to do. I think I

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Speaker 6: used the mentality that we wouldn't have this issue, and

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Speaker 6: we wouldn't ever have this issue.

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Speaker 1: Had you guys had conversations previously about online safety and

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Speaker 1: making sure that you're not having interactions with people that

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Speaker 1: you don't know. Is this something that you've discussed in

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Speaker 1: your family and your home.

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Speaker 6: To a degree but obviously not well enough.

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Speaker 1: Well you say that, but when I think about when

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Speaker 1: we did Parental Guidance season two, and we did a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of stuff around online safety, and we saw

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Speaker 1: parents who had been really diligent and having good conversations

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Speaker 1: with their children about this, and their children still accepted

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Speaker 1: invitations from strangers to engage in ways that we're not safe,

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Speaker 1: we're not healthy. So what we see is this sort

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Speaker 1: of disconnect between parents. So were saying, yeah, we are

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Speaker 1: actually talking about this stuff and what kids ultimately choose

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Speaker 1: to do. A couple of other questions as we sort

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Speaker 1: of moved to a completion of the conversation here, Hailey,

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Speaker 1: was there any ramification. Did those people who had taken

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Speaker 1: images of Jake ever send them to anybody?

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Speaker 6: As far as we know, no, they didn't off our

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Speaker 6: own back, not with the advice of anybody. Just thinking

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Speaker 6: how can we minimize the risk of this person being

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Speaker 6: able to contact any of Jake's contacts. We just deleted

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Speaker 6: or we popped this person on all the socials and

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Speaker 6: then started deleting as many of his contacts as possible,

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Speaker 6: and then deleting the accounts themselves.

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Speaker 1: In a conversation recently with the Australian Center to count

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Speaker 1: Child Exploitation or ACE, they talked about something where if

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Speaker 1: images are taken but they're not used in a bribery

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Speaker 1: or blackmail situation, they may be taken and used for

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Speaker 1: other nefarious purposes. Presumably you've reported this to the police

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Speaker 1: and now it's just a case of waiting and hoping

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Speaker 1: that nothing more comes of it. Would that be fair

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Speaker 1: to say, like, where does this leave you now?

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Speaker 6: Initially we rang police link for advice as to what

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Speaker 6: to do and how to manage the situation, and it

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Speaker 6: seems like the person that I spoke to didn't really

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Speaker 6: offer any advice. So you don't know what's gone together,

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Speaker 6: and we didn't know who to report it to, so

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Speaker 6: it stopped there.

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Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, fortunately in your case that's where it has stopped.

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Speaker 1: But still that idea the terror I think about what

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Speaker 1: Jake said, I'm going to ruin your life. Just the

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Speaker 1: feeling that that must have created at this point, Jake,

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Speaker 1: are you back on social media? Have you created new accounts?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 2: Never?

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Speaker 1: Never.

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Speaker 2: Since that moment, I've never searched enough for anything. Nothing.

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Speaker 1: As a family who's been through this, what advice would

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Speaker 1: you give to others who are listening to this conversation

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Speaker 1: and are understandably concerned that this sort of stuff could

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Speaker 1: happen to anyone.

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Speaker 6: The biggest piece of advice I could get is, and

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Speaker 6: it's something that I've taken from new doctor Justin from

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Speaker 6: early on, is to reassure your children that you love

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Speaker 6: them and support them no matter what. And that's the

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Speaker 6: biggest thing that I've always reinforced my family is that

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Speaker 6: nothing that you can do, or say or will stop

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Speaker 6: me from loving you you no matter what.

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Speaker 1: Jake, have you felt that?

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Speaker 2: Definitely? We didn't know what would happen after it, so

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Speaker 2: I was very rare skinned in that moment. The next day,

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Speaker 2: but Mum reassured me and told me that everything will

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Speaker 2: be all right. Hopefully nothing would happen the next day,

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Speaker 2: and she kept calm less. She's so good.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything that you would add before we wrap things.

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Speaker 6: Up, just keeping those of communication open and keep an

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Speaker 6: eye on your kids commons and devices. Well, I had

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Speaker 6: to deal with the kids that I would have open

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Speaker 6: access to their devices and look at their contacts, you know,

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Speaker 6: what they were looking at and who they were speaking to.

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Speaker 6: But I never really followed through on that. I wish

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Speaker 6: I had.

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Speaker 1: Well, the fact Haley, that Jake came to you and

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Speaker 1: was open about things straight away is a credit to

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Speaker 1: you as a mum. He obviously knew that he was safe,

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Speaker 1: and he knew that he had that unconditional regard from you.

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Speaker 1: I think that's wonderful. Well, guys, I appreciate you sharing

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Speaker 1: your stories so very much. Thank you for taking time

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Speaker 1: out of your day and for being open and vulnerable

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Speaker 1: about something that's tricky to talk about, especially in such

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Speaker 1: a public way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, You're welcome.

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Speaker 1: That's Jake and Hailey from Townsville. Jake fifteen years old

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Speaker 1: when he was approached by an online scammer. Fortunately no

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Speaker 1: negative ramifications in terms of being exploited for money or

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Speaker 1: having images shared, but certainly threatening, certainly terrifying, and certainly

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Speaker 1: anything but what we want to see happening for our children.

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Speaker 1: I know that many of you who are listening are

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Speaker 1: going to be saying, so what do I do? What

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Speaker 1: do I do? Tomorrow on the Happy Families Podcast, I'm

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Speaker 1: speaking with the E Safety Commissioner, the Federal e Safety Commissioner,

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Speaker 1: Julie Inman Grant will join me and talk about what

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Speaker 1: families can do when this kind of thing happens. Hopefully

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Speaker 1: we can protect our children from it. If it does happen, though,

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Speaker 1: Julie will discuss with us what we can do to

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Speaker 1: keep our kids safe and to make sure that there

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Speaker 1: is no further an ongoing damage cause by people who

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Speaker 1: have such evil and impure intent. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: else to call it. It's just devastating. So please join

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Speaker 1: us on the Happy Families Podcast tomorrow to hear part

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Speaker 1: two of this very very important conversation about keeping kids

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Speaker 1: safe online. The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin

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Speaker 1: Ruland from Bridge Media and For more information about making

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Speaker 1: your family happier, we would love for you to visit

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Speaker 1: us at Happy families dot com a check out the Quest.

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Speaker 1: It's our brand new interactive membership that takes you on

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Speaker 1: a journey, a journey to help your family to flourish

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Speaker 1: and make your family happier. The quest. We guide you,

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Speaker 1: We hold your hand, and we take you one step

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Speaker 1: at a time from where you are now to that

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Speaker 1: levels of happiness that you want in your family. All

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Speaker 1: the details are at happy families dot com dot you

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Speaker 1: talk to you tomorrow with Julie Immigrant