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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for.

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Speaker 2: The time poor parent who just wants answers Now.

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Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy

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Speaker 3: Families dot com dot au. Today I'm joined with one

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Speaker 3: of my favorite podcast guests, dr Anthea Rhodes. We get

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Speaker 3: to chat pretty regularly about the great work that she

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Speaker 3: does with the RCH National Child Health Poll. Doctor Rhodes

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Speaker 3: is an Associate Professor of Public Health. She's a pediatrician

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Speaker 3: and she directs the Royal Children's Hospital National Child Health Poll. So, Anthea,

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Speaker 3: welcome to the podcast. Great to have you along again

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Speaker 3: to talk about your latest poll.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Justin, great to be here.

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Speaker 3: As always, I wanted to talk to you about this

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Speaker 3: poll because it struck me as both being awful and

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Speaker 3: so true and something that I can completely relate to.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know if I want to admit to this,

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Speaker 3: but in a nutshell, the latest Royal Children's Hospital National

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Speaker 3: Child Health Poll found that while more than ninety percent

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Speaker 3: and a parents said that they enjoyed playing with their

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Speaker 3: children or their child, thirty six percent said that they

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Speaker 3: would prefer to do something else. Basically, what you've done

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Speaker 3: is you've asked two thousand parents about how often they

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Speaker 3: play with the kids, how it feels to play with

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Speaker 3: the kids. Why do you walk us through what you

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Speaker 3: actually found beyond that one stat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, we also found that around two thirds of

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Speaker 1: parents said they found it hard or boring to play

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Speaker 1: with their kids, and that was a more common experience

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Speaker 1: for dads than it was for mums, and particularly when

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Speaker 1: children were very young babies. We found that, as you say,

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Speaker 1: parents sort of knew it was important, so that was

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Speaker 1: really reassuring to us, but at the same time, they

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Speaker 1: found it hard to find the time and the energy

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Speaker 1: to schedule in play. Some parents said they felt like

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Speaker 1: play these days is just not as good as it

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Speaker 1: used to be back when they were kids, that kids

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Speaker 1: have forgotten how to be bored, and that we really

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Speaker 1: need to think about what play looks like and whether

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Speaker 1: it's as good as it was perhaps when we were

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Speaker 1: growing up.

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Speaker 3: Let me ask you when you were growing up? So

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Speaker 3: you're a gen xer? That's am I safe in putting

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Speaker 3: that out there?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: That's pretty safe? Pretty safe?

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Speaker 3: You and I both fall into that same category. Did

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Speaker 3: your parents play with you much? Anthea?

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Speaker 1: Do you know my parents didn't really play with me much.

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Speaker 1: They were pretty busy, pretty hard working. They had small business.

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Speaker 1: I've got two sisters who are pretty close in age

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Speaker 1: to me, and my memories of my childhood were full

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Speaker 1: of play, but most of it didn't involve my parents,

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Speaker 1: so there was a lot of us being left to

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Speaker 1: occupy ourselves.

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Speaker 2: We spent a lot of time, you know, down.

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Speaker 1: The street, around with the neighbors, or in the back

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Speaker 1: room at my parents' shop actually where we spent many

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Speaker 1: of our hours after school, and we did a lot

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Speaker 1: of imaginary play. We had things that we dreamt up,

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Speaker 1: that we made up that we still laugh about sometimes today,

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Speaker 1: and lots of parents listening would be maybe able to

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Speaker 1: relate to that.

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Speaker 2: They'd think about the fact that we.

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Speaker 1: Didn't have devices. We had TV, you know, we had

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Speaker 1: free to air program TV, so you might have half

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Speaker 1: an hour in the afternoon where something interesting was on,

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Speaker 1: but that was it. And things have changed a lot.

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Speaker 1: This survey showed us that the most common way kids

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Speaker 1: in Australia are playing today is with devices, and that

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Speaker 1: they're much more likely.

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Speaker 2: To be doing that than they are to be playing outside.

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Speaker 1: So play has changed. It's not all bad news, you know.

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Speaker 1: Play is about things, opportunities for kids to be creative,

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Speaker 1: for them to do things that are led by themselves,

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Speaker 1: so they think about what it is they make it up,

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Speaker 1: and that it's just because it's satisfying mostly fun, but

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Speaker 1: not always. Play can also be a bit stressful. It

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Speaker 1: might actually, you know, result in kids being upset. But

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Speaker 1: there's learning in all of that because it's experimentation. So

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Speaker 1: it has changed, but it doesn't mean that it's gone

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Speaker 1: away all together. But we as parents maybe need to

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Speaker 1: think a bit more about where are the opportunities for

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Speaker 1: play today for our kids in our busy lives.

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Speaker 3: So I want to jump in with a couple of

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Speaker 3: things and bounce them off you and see what your

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Speaker 3: data says, what your experience is, a pediatrician says, And

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Speaker 3: I think it's really interesting to go back to your

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Speaker 3: two thirds. Call it hard or boring. I've really struggled

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Speaker 3: from the time dad to six kids. But I've really

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Speaker 3: struggled to quote unquote play with the kids. Once they

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Speaker 3: were crawling, I used to tickle them and I'd grabbed

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Speaker 3: their legs as they crawl away and pull them back

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Speaker 3: to me. And I've always loved wrestling and rough and

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Speaker 3: tumble play. But if the kids want to sit down

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Speaker 3: and play a board game, or if they want to,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, play dress ups or play make believe.

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Speaker 3: For a parent, there's nothing intrinsically motivating about sitting down

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Speaker 3: and dragging yourself through the pain of that kind of

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Speaker 3: child play.

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Speaker 2: And there's a few reasons for that.

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Speaker 1: I think one of them, particularly for young children, his

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Speaker 1: play is really repetitive. Yeah, and that's deliberate. And you know,

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Speaker 1: you would know about this with your background understanding psychology

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Speaker 1: and how brains work and how brains grow. But what

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Speaker 1: kids do when they play is they do the same

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Speaker 1: thing or something very similar. They just change it a

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Speaker 1: little bit, and they change it a little bit again,

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Speaker 1: and they changed it a little bit more. They don't

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Speaker 1: change it enough to make it interesting for us as parents.

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Speaker 1: They're like, watch me, watch me now, watch me again,

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Speaker 1: watch me again. You're like, oh my god, I've seen this.

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Speaker 1: But they are actually changing things a little bit and

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Speaker 1: experimenting and finding out, you know, where the line is

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Speaker 1: when they've crossed the line. They're testing their own boundaries.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's that repetition about play that can

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Speaker 1: be so tedious for parents. But is really really important.

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Speaker 2: But I want to pick up on something else.

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Speaker 1: You said that. I was talking about this with my

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Speaker 1: husband and as you know, I've got four kids, and

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Speaker 1: I said, oh, you know, this is study.

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Speaker 2: It really showed that, you know, parents don't.

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Speaker 1: Always want to play with their kids, and especially dads.

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Speaker 1: And he laughed and he said, well, you know, we

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Speaker 1: can't all.

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Speaker 2: Be banned from Bluey.

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Speaker 1: And for this day, wow, my second day on the planet.

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Speaker 3: Look at all this it's amazing.

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Speaker 1: So for parents listening, watch who watched the show, and

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Speaker 1: it is you know, he's great at playing with his kids,

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Speaker 1: maybe not so great at doing some of the other

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Speaker 1: tasks around the house. But he's going to lie on

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Speaker 1: the floor, he'll stand there while they hose him down.

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Speaker 1: He'll put the dress ups on, you know, he'll get

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Speaker 1: into the make believe and you can see how that's

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Speaker 1: fabulous and it's really promoted and it's a beautiful thing

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Speaker 1: about Blue as a show. But it's also a high

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Speaker 1: bar to set. And I think what this study has

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Speaker 1: really shown is that, you know, lots of people feel

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Speaker 1: that way. It's not that easy. It's not always intuitive.

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Speaker 1: Some parents have said to us, I don't think I'm

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Speaker 1: very good at it. I don't know how to play

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Speaker 1: with my kids. But you know what, there is no

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Speaker 1: perfect and there are no rules, And you know, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be make believe. It doesn't have to

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Speaker 1: be plato, it doesn't have to be trivial pursued. You know,

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Speaker 1: it can be something really simple. Maybe it is chasing

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Speaker 1: them down the hallway. Maybe it's more of that rough

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Speaker 1: and tumble. Maybe it's just something that you, you know,

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Speaker 1: quizzing each other about.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't even have to be physical.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's something you're talking about or bantering about in

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Speaker 1: the car when you're driving along. So there are lots

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Speaker 1: of little moments of play in our normal lives, and

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes as parents we just don't see them,

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Speaker 1: and maybe we give ourselves a bit of a raw deal.

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Speaker 2: We're doing better than we think.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the guilt trip never feels good, and we pack

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Speaker 3: our bags and send ourselves on one of those pretty regular,

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Speaker 3: especially when it comes to parenting. The idea that play

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Speaker 3: can be whatever you want it to be, though, it

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Speaker 3: really resonates for me because while I mean jumping on

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Speaker 3: the trampoline, the older I've gotten, the more gravity has

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Speaker 3: become not my friend, it it hurts me.

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Speaker 1: I haven't even physically had four children yourself, Just so I.

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Speaker 3: Know, I know, and that's kind of a sensitive area.

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Speaker 3: I probably shouldn't have chosen the trampoline, but I hate

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Speaker 3: jumping on the trampoline. But if the kids want to

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Speaker 3: come for a swim or like I said, the rough

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Speaker 3: and tumble stuff or kicking a ball. And there's plenty

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Speaker 3: of research that shows that dads do some kinds of

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Speaker 3: play really well and they're not that into other kinds.

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Speaker 3: Let me ask you, Anthea, when you ask parents about

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Speaker 3: how much time they have for play, what were their responses.

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Speaker 3: Are they saying, oh, yeah, I've got the time, I

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Speaker 3: don't like doing it. Are they saying I'm flat strap,

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Speaker 3: I'm too busy on Netflix, I've got work, Like, what

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Speaker 3: sort of responses are you getting?

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Speaker 2: We found both.

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Speaker 1: So we found there are some parents who have the time,

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Speaker 1: but they just prefer to be doing something else, right,

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Speaker 1: And then there was a round a third of parents

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Speaker 1: who said that they'd like to play with their children more,

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Speaker 1: but they felt they, you know, they were too busy.

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Speaker 2: And that was more common among parents who were working,

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Speaker 2: perhaps unsurprisingly than those who were at home. Full time

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Speaker 2: with their kids.

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Speaker 1: So a bit of a mixture of things, you know,

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Speaker 1: when it came to how they prioritize it. But I

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Speaker 1: think one of the other big things to come out

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Speaker 1: of the study that's important is that obviously parents are

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Speaker 1: not the only play partner for kids, so there are

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Speaker 1: other people that kids play with. And something really interesting

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Speaker 1: and positive for us out of this study was that

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Speaker 1: around half of kids most often play by themselves.

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Speaker 2: When they're at home.

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Speaker 1: This is not when they're at school, so they're occupying themselves,

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Speaker 1: they're doing something and this is not on a device,

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Speaker 1: So this is time they spent playing, not on a device,

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Speaker 1: where they're independent, and that's a really important skill and

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Speaker 1: really reassuring, and I think important for parents to know

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Speaker 1: how normal that is and how common that is. There

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Speaker 1: doesn't always have to be someone else involved in play.

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Speaker 1: It can just be about interacting with your environment. And

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Speaker 1: then of course there's siblings. For those children who have

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Speaker 1: got siblings, you know, they're the most common play partner

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Speaker 1: at home, above parents, above playing on your own. For

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Speaker 1: really young kids, grandparents, you know, one in ten young

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Speaker 1: children most often play with their grandparents, and for teenagers,

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Speaker 1: pets were pretty common in there around fifteen percent of

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Speaker 1: the time, so lots of different played partners if you like.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't always have to be parents, and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: even have to be anyone. And it's still a really

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Speaker 1: healthy and important thing for kids.

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Speaker 2: To be doing.

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Speaker 1: So leaving them to their own devices sometimes is absolutely fine.

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Speaker 3: I do have concerns that kids are playing on greens

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Speaker 3: more than is healthy. Did you get any data in

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Speaker 3: the poll about the screenplay stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the majority of kids most commonly will play

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Speaker 1: with the device, so that was around fifty five percent

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Speaker 1: of children will be playing with the device most days

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Speaker 1: of the week, and it was older you know, older

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Speaker 1: kids rather had a higher proportion, so you know, more

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Speaker 1: like three quarters of teens, and it was less common

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Speaker 1: in the younger children. And then alongside that was outside play.

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Speaker 1: Less than half of Australian children play outside most days

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Speaker 1: of the week. It's a bit more common among teenagers

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Speaker 1: and among little kids, so probably babies at the park

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Speaker 1: and you know teens in maybe getting out independently a

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Speaker 1: bit more. But through that primary school age group, you

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Speaker 1: know certainly well under half of Australian kids getting outside

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Speaker 1: most days. So and that looked the same regardless whether

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Speaker 1: they were boys or girls, which was really interesting to

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Speaker 1: us as well. So a big reminder there about how

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Speaker 1: important it is for kids to get outdoors. You know,

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Speaker 1: we know lots of things and you know this well.

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Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about it before, the benefits of

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Speaker 1: being in nature, in the environment, and then of course

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Speaker 1: that physically active play that is much more likely to

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Speaker 1: be happening.

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Speaker 2: If you're outside.

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Speaker 1: And related to that was where outside they play, so

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Speaker 1: you know, is it in your own backyard, is it

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Speaker 1: in your street, is it down the road? And for

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Speaker 1: families who had access to a backyard, most commonly it

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Speaker 1: was still at home. But for teenagers, we're seeing that

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Speaker 1: they're getting away from home. They you know, they might

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Speaker 1: be out at the park, and those primary school age

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Speaker 1: kids generally were less commonly outside. If they are, it's

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Speaker 1: still at home in the backyard. So you know, primary

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Speaker 1: school age kids roaming the neighborhood really isn't happening like

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Speaker 1: it used to when you look at the data that

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Speaker 1: we collected.

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Speaker 3: So Dr Rhodes, when we are talking about play, I

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Speaker 3: want to sort of go back to my childhood for

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Speaker 3: a second, which is probably inappropriate because we're not living

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Speaker 3: in the seventiesly eighties anymore. But I've got to ask anyway,

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Speaker 3: when I was a kid, I used to build billy

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Speaker 3: carts and ride them down steep hills, and I used

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Speaker 3: to make homemade skateboard ramps and damage and bruise my

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Speaker 3: body in all kinds of ways. And as I got

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Speaker 3: older and became a teenager, I used to catch the

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Speaker 3: bus to the beach and jump off the rocks and

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Speaker 3: go surfing in conditions that were not safe. Frankly, especially

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Speaker 3: for my limited ability, are kids today taking risks like

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Speaker 3: we used to back in back in my day?

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Speaker 1: And look, you live to tell the tale justin so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've absolutely spot on. A really interesting finding from the

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Speaker 1: study was that around a third of parents feel a

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Speaker 1: play should not involve any risk at all.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And one of the main barriers to children getting outdoors

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Speaker 1: to play was concerns about safety in the environment. And

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Speaker 1: when we say safety, it's not strangers necessarily, it's other

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Speaker 1: things like accident injury, traffic, those sorts of risks. And

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Speaker 1: we're talking about older kids, you know, not young children,

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Speaker 1: where obviously there are genuine hazards and risks. You've got

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Speaker 1: to be really careful, but where we might say, you

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Speaker 1: know what, if you that up, it's probably okay, but

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Speaker 1: parents often in around a third of cases don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: agree that it is anymore. So things have changed, and

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Speaker 1: our ability to sit comfortably with risk when it comes

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Speaker 1: to our children has absolutely as a society shifted. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's always been a spectrum. There's always been the parent

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Speaker 1: who was not going to be allowing the things that

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Speaker 1: you were doing, and there's always going to be the

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Speaker 1: parent who's letting stuff go on that most parents won't,

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Speaker 1: and that's probably where all the kids end up, but they're.

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Speaker 2: At Johnny's house.

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Speaker 1: But you know, in terms of what on average we

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Speaker 1: feel comfortable with as a society, it's really shifted away

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Speaker 1: from risk. And one of the really important messages I

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Speaker 1: think in that is that actually risk in play is

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Speaker 1: a key part to how it's educational and how children learn.

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Speaker 1: So it's a bit experimental play, as we've talked about,

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Speaker 1: and by testing a boundary and understanding if you've gone

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Speaker 1: too far in a playful situation, that's how you learn.

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Speaker 1: So it's very important we're not suggesting kids are put

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Speaker 1: in situations where the risk is really high and something

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Speaker 1: is very hazardous, but where it's just around the boundaries

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Speaker 1: of comfort, you know, trying something independently, getting out there

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Speaker 1: by themselves, but you know, having a plan for a

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Speaker 1: safety net or a backup, having a plan to what

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Speaker 1: they'll do if it doesn't go right. Then that way

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Speaker 1: you're giving them a chance to learn by testing things out.

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Speaker 3: One more question for you around play parents schedules, what

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Speaker 3: about just the extracurricular activities. I guess what I'm curious

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Speaker 3: about is whether or not you found to any evidence

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Speaker 3: of kids being overscheduled and the kids not having time

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Speaker 3: for play, let alone, the parents not being inclined to play,

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Speaker 3: any data around that that you found compelling and useful

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Speaker 3: for this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so definitely. You know, about a quarter of children

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Speaker 1: parents reported they didn't have enough time for play because

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Speaker 1: they were busy doing other things, and commonly those things

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Speaker 1: involved shed activities. So there is no doubt that extracurricular

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Speaker 1: activities do impact on free play opportunities for kids some

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Speaker 1: parents had if you like a misunderstanding that scheduled sport

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Speaker 1: and arranged you know, training activities are play, They can

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Speaker 1: be playful, and they're certainly good for kids. In other ways,

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Speaker 1: there might be lots of benefits there. I'm certainly not

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Speaker 1: suggesting kids shouldn't get out there and get involved in

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Speaker 1: community sport, but they're not generally play child led and

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Speaker 1: free in terms of a gender and activity in the

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Speaker 1: way that true players. So the learning and the benefits

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Speaker 1: and the experience are different. So it does suggest, you know,

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Speaker 1: our study, we're back to schedule activities. You know, they

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Speaker 1: all disappeared for a while in COVID, and we saw

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Speaker 1: much more traditional patterns of play happening. You know, kids

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Speaker 1: were back riding around the streets, they were digging holes,

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Speaker 1: they were you know, building things in trees, because all

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Speaker 1: that scheduled time activity you know, went away. So really

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Speaker 1: interesting to see that we pretty much swung right back.

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Speaker 2: Some families are.

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Speaker 1: Still not doing as much as they did before, you know,

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Speaker 1: they maybe feel like they've found a new balance, but

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Speaker 1: then for others it's all back on. So it's going

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Speaker 1: to be different for every child and every kid. But

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Speaker 1: there's definitely consideration there that if you fill time with

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Speaker 1: stuff that's organized and scheduled, there's going to be less

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Speaker 1: time for the free activity, and that's where some of

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Speaker 1: the real learning happens when it comes to play.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Anthea Rhodes, always a delight to talk to you,

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Speaker 3: Doctor Anthea Rhodes, thanks so much for joining me on

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Speaker 3: the podcast again.

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Speaker 2: My pleasure, Justin great to chat as always.

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Speaker 3: That is doctor Anthea Rhodes. She is the director of

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Speaker 3: the Royal Children's Hospital Child Health Poll. Look forward to

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Speaker 3: having Anthea back on the podcast again real soon. Pediatrician,

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Speaker 3: mum of four and all round fabulous lady. The Happy

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Speaker 3: Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media.

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Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer and if you'd like

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Speaker 3: more info about how to make your family have you

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Speaker 3: visit us at happy families dot com dot au

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Speaker 1: La