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Speaker 1: Do we know that. The treasure of Billiyan yesterday commenced

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Speaker 1: his budget road show, announcing he's going to take action

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Speaker 1: to repair what he's described as Labour's debt legacy, while

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Speaker 1: continuing to pledge to protect public service jobs. Now he's

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Speaker 1: also set to remove Labour's debt cap, introducing legislation next

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Speaker 1: week to the first sittings of Parliament to repeal it.

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Speaker 1: He revealed yesterday that the territory's forecast accessible borrowing for

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty eight to twenty nine well it's projected to

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Speaker 1: hit fifteen billion dollars, while outlining a number of financial

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Speaker 1: failures caused by the previous government, including a failure to

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Speaker 1: allocate any operational funding to the Darwin Art Gallery, estimated

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Speaker 1: to be at least six million dollars a year and

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Speaker 1: the Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander Art Gallery of Australia project,

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Speaker 1: which is estimated to be in excess of ten million

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Speaker 1: dollars a year. Now, the Treasurer of Billian joins me

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Speaker 1: on the line. Good morning to you, Treasurer.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie, and good morning to your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Now good to have you on the show.

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Speaker 2: Bill.

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Speaker 1: These blowouts are really concerning. I mean the Darwin Art

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Speaker 1: Gallery blowing out from seventy million dollars to one hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty three million, while the Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander

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Speaker 1: Art Gallery first announced at one hundred and fifty MILI,

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Speaker 1: only to blow out to three hundred million. Now the

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Speaker 1: cop trying to rain that budget back into its original

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Speaker 1: allocation treasurer it must have been quite concerning when you

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Speaker 1: took on the role and started to get a better

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Speaker 1: understanding of the finances.

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Speaker 2: Look, it really was. Look, we knew sort of what

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Speaker 2: we were getting into, but the more that we delved

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Speaker 2: into the budget and what the previous government we're doing

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Speaker 2: with territories money, the reality really started to set in

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Speaker 2: on the actual issues that we face. And those art

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Speaker 2: is just a couple of instances of where funding was

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Speaker 2: just it was being allocated but not being managed. And

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Speaker 2: then the big issue, one of the big issues we found,

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Speaker 2: I think was there's all these projects and a course

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Speaker 2: programs happening that were going to be happening for three,

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Speaker 2: four or five years, but what the previous government were

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Speaker 2: doing so to hide the true costs and their potential

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Speaker 2: or their breach of the debt cap which was forecasts.

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Speaker 2: Rather than funding them for the entire time, they're only

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Speaker 2: funding them year by year by year to hide that

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Speaker 2: overall cost. And that's what we found because if it

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Speaker 2: actually costed all these programs into that they were doing,

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Speaker 2: it would have forecasted a breach of the debt cap

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Speaker 2: much much sooner. So they were hide They were hiding

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Speaker 2: these numbers a year on year on year on year

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Speaker 2: to try and minimize or hide that they were going

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Speaker 2: to breach the debt cap that they put in in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 1: So in terms of the operational blowouts, in your opinion,

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Speaker 1: is it normal to forecast years in advance how much

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Speaker 1: it's going to operate, for example, a new gallery.

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Speaker 2: Well, then that's the thing, Katie, right right, we'll use

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Speaker 2: dad Ciaga and All Springs as the example. Right, there

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Speaker 2: was budget for one hundred and fifty MILI, when you

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Speaker 2: we now know that it was going to blow out

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Speaker 2: well and trearly over three hundred MILI. So they would

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Speaker 2: have been borring one hundred and fifty million dollars to

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Speaker 2: complete that project. But they knew that it was going

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Speaker 2: to cost ten million dollars per aundum operationally to run

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Speaker 2: it but never put that into a budget, never forecast that,

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Speaker 2: so of course again that would be would be money

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Speaker 2: that they were borring. So it just goes to show

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Speaker 2: some of the sneaky tactics that they were using to

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Speaker 2: try and hide the actual costs and ongoing cost of

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Speaker 2: territories for some of these projects. Do you believe sixty

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Speaker 2: one and now one hundred and eighty do you believe.

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Speaker 1: The former government was being dishonest or do you think

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Speaker 1: they were being fiscally irresponsible?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think certainly they are being physically irresponsible. You're

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Speaker 2: going to you only have to see the two million

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Speaker 2: dollars in debt they wrapped up in the last two

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Speaker 2: years leading into the election. Were they being dishonest? Look,

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Speaker 2: I don't think i'd come out that harsh and say

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Speaker 2: they'll decides. I'll say they're being very very tricky and

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Speaker 2: probably hiding some of the facts from territorials on the

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Speaker 2: true state of affairs of the budget. And this is

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Speaker 2: what we're finding now. It's just the blowouts and the

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Speaker 2: spending that was just gune aboarding the debt cap in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, or they rained it in a little

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Speaker 2: bit and then it was like the drunken sailors back again.

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Speaker 2: Let's just go and keep spending and keep spending and

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Speaker 2: keep spending, and there's no moderation to it, Katie. And

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Speaker 2: that's what we have to do now, is do that

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Speaker 2: hard work. Yes, we're going to breach the debt cap.

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Speaker 2: We're going to remove it because it was actually a fast.

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Speaker 2: At the end of the day, we know that we

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Speaker 2: have to be very very careful with our spending and

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Speaker 2: we're going to do everything I can to make sure

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Speaker 2: that we manage the economy and do absolute not a

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Speaker 2: best to make sure that that debt doesn't get out

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Speaker 2: of control. We'll be spending our money.

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Speaker 1: Well. Selena Rubo joined me on the show yesterday. She

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Speaker 1: said the government that your part of has got no

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Speaker 1: vision for the future and that people in Alice Springs

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Speaker 1: are really concerned about the reduced budget allocation for the

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Speaker 1: Aboriginal Art Gallery. Is that gallery going to be at

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Speaker 1: a national standard with the decreased budget.

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Speaker 2: Well, all we've done when we look at the reduced budget,

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Speaker 2: and this is the thing. Later, we're just going to

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Speaker 2: go and spend an extra one hundred and fifty to

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Speaker 2: two hundred million dollars on the gallery and this is

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Speaker 2: money that we would have been putting on the credit

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Speaker 2: card with to no account So we've looked at the

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Speaker 2: project and going, well, we have a budget. We have

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Speaker 2: to stay within budget because this is what the previous

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Speaker 2: government weren't doing. They were just doing projects allowing to

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Speaker 2: run over. Now we'll just go and borrow the money.

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Speaker 2: There was no accountability. So we've looked at the artgoing on, okay,

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Speaker 2: what can we deliver for one hundred and fifty MILI.

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Speaker 2: We've done a redesign of the actual gallery, so the

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Speaker 2: actual exhibition space will only be reduced by one hundred

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Speaker 2: square meetings.

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Speaker 1: That's still a fair good.

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Speaker 2: Well over when you're talking like four and a half

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Speaker 2: thousand square meters. I think for the entire project, we're

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Speaker 2: losing one hundred square meters of exhibition spots. So we're

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Speaker 2: able to do the exhibition space. We're changing the layout

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Speaker 2: of what it looks like on the site. We've managed

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Speaker 2: to keep a zach obal so there's a community asset

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Speaker 2: back for the use of the community. Again, we can

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Speaker 2: deliver the Atsiaga project, and we have to do it

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Speaker 2: on budget. I can't. I've been very clear with the

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Speaker 2: agencies that the budgets one hundred and fifty mili. It's

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Speaker 2: not three hundred. It's not three hundred and fifty. And

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Speaker 2: this is where labor went wrong. Look, I get it,

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Speaker 2: we have a budget. Ye oh, well, it's okay. We

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Speaker 2: won't worry about the budget.

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Speaker 1: I totally get it. You know, I think if you're

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Speaker 1: going to renovate your home, you can't say you're going

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Speaker 1: to spend one hundred grand and then spend three hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand and expect that you're able to then continue to

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Speaker 1: buy groceries and do everything in the way that you

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Speaker 1: have previously been doing it. You know, Like I totally

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Speaker 1: understand it from a real sort of normal person perspective.

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Speaker 1: But how are you going to staff these two galleries

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Speaker 1: now that we're going to have and the operational costs

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Speaker 1: sound like they're going to be incredibly high.

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Speaker 2: And that's the thing is, we now need to look

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Speaker 2: at those operational costs. So if these galleries go ahead

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Speaker 2: in their current format, then we now need to look

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Speaker 2: at what the operational costs are and actually budget for them,

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Speaker 2: and then and look at that holistically within the entire

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Speaker 2: territory budget. Do we have Look, we've said, we're not

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Speaker 2: going to be shacking any public service. We're quarantining our

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Speaker 2: frontline staff, and we may have to grow our frontline staff,

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Speaker 2: but we have to maintain that watch on those non

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Speaker 2: frontline areas, so we reduce that or stop that growth,

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Speaker 2: but we may have to then reprioritize people from different

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Speaker 2: areas in to say, working in the gallery. I can't

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Speaker 2: just keep going out like labor did and employing more

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Speaker 2: and more and more public service and putting that money

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Speaker 2: on the credit card. We have to be responsible.

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Speaker 1: I want to through because I've got a few things

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Speaker 1: to get through and we've got such a busy hour

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Speaker 1: lined up. You say that there's no long term funding

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Speaker 1: for corrections, estimated to be worth fifty million per anum

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Speaker 1: just to maintain existing budget and service levels. Clearly this

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Speaker 1: cost is going to blow out. I mean, we need

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Speaker 1: more infrastructure, we need more staff. How much could this

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Speaker 1: blow out?

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Speaker 2: Well, we have a Corrections master plan now which does

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Speaker 2: include some infrastructure, which we're working through at the moment.

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Speaker 2: And I've been saying this for years now because I

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Speaker 2: come from the industry. Is that this was proven in

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Speaker 2: New South Wales where the justice system collapsed because of

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Speaker 2: the way that it was managed at the time, there

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Speaker 2: was a huge investment in police in New South Wales,

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Speaker 2: no investment in the justice system and it fell over.

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Speaker 2: And the same has happened here. And I've been saying

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Speaker 2: it for years. For every dollar that you invest in

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Speaker 2: the police, you need to invest a dollar fifty into

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Speaker 2: your justice system, which is courts and corrections that never

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Speaker 2: had And now we see the crisis that corrections are

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Speaker 2: Incurrently there's a shortage of infrastructure, a shortage of beds,

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Speaker 2: there is a shortage of staff that there's been very

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Speaker 2: little investment in the courts. The courts of backlogs. So

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Speaker 2: this is a direct result of that under investment in

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Speaker 2: that sector. So we have to put money into it.

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Speaker 1: We don't know how much, Like do we know how

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Speaker 1: much we're going to have to put in Well.

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Speaker 2: I think we're talking about over the next few years

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Speaker 2: at least one hundred and ten million dollars in some

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Speaker 2: infrastructure projects immediately to get some things across the line,

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Speaker 2: to give us some bed capacity, and there will be

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Speaker 2: some investment in the staff. And the Commissioner for Correction

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Speaker 2: is working through what that's going to look like. At

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Speaker 2: the moment, but we have to do it. They've been

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Speaker 2: neglected for so long and we made that commitment to

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Speaker 2: keeping our community safety. And that means particularly you commit

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Speaker 2: a crime, there's going to be consequences. You may end

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Speaker 2: up in jail, and we've seen an increasing we've seen

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Speaker 2: an increase in prison numbers, and I said, I make

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Speaker 2: no apologies for that, and I make for keeping the

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Speaker 2: community saying.

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Speaker 1: Sorry to hurry here along, mate. I'm just very conscious

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Speaker 1: of time now in terms of the failure to manage

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Speaker 1: the IT projects such as the Acacia it rollout. I mean,

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Speaker 1: with that that's going to cost and like it looks

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Speaker 1: like it's it's going to cost. Is it right that

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Speaker 1: it's an additional sixty one million dollars to date and

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Speaker 1: require a further one hundred and twenty seven million, How

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Speaker 1: on earth are you going to manage to afford that?

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Speaker 2: And that's and that's what the what it's estimated to be, Katie. Again,

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Speaker 2: it comes down to management of the project. And I

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Speaker 2: think when you look at a Casia when it first

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Speaker 2: come out, there was some very clear parameters about practices

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Speaker 2: and this should be done and that should be done again,

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Speaker 2: there was it wasn't managed properly from government's end. They

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Speaker 2: allowed things to change and of course that's caused those

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Speaker 2: cost blowouts. Again at the end of the day that

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Speaker 2: that's put a place undue issues on our front line staffing,

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Speaker 2: our hospitals. So look, we've it's at a point now

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Speaker 2: where we've invested quite a lot in it. We're going

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Speaker 2: to have to invest some more in it to get

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Speaker 2: it across the line. It will be good for the

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Speaker 2: community are rule, and good for our health sector if

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Speaker 2: they can get that the functionality into it. But it

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Speaker 2: really frustrates me that it's been allowed to blow out

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Speaker 2: like this, and it.

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Speaker 1: Sounds as though like there's a lot of factors at

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Speaker 1: play here in terms of removing that that debt ceiling,

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Speaker 1: and you know that is really the path that we

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Speaker 1: are on.

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Speaker 2: Bill.

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Speaker 1: Some people listening this morning, though, they're going to be going,

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Speaker 1: of course, the CLP would be saying it's all Labour's fault.

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Speaker 1: Of course you come into government and you're going to

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Speaker 1: blame the former labor government. I guess the big question

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Speaker 1: this morning though, is how on earth are you going

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Speaker 1: to rain it back in without cutting jobs and without

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Speaker 1: you know, making making.

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Speaker 2: Cuts and that's the key thing, Katie. We've got to

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Speaker 2: be about how we do business. Look, we need to

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Speaker 2: grow our own source revenue and that's part of the

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Speaker 2: Territory Coordinator at cutting the red tape work that we're doing. Now.

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Speaker 2: We need investors to get into the territory and start

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Speaker 2: spending money and helping us grow our economy because that's

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Speaker 2: one of the pathways out is our own source revenue.

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Speaker 2: But we need we need our public sector to be

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Speaker 2: more streamline and start to work smarter too. And that

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Speaker 2: work is also under way because the public sector and

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Speaker 2: those key works in, those frontline workers are the people

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Speaker 2: that look after us and help us, but also help

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Speaker 2: drive that investment and work with those proponents to get

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Speaker 2: these projects offline. So we definitely need our public sector

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Speaker 2: on board and working with us.

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Speaker 1: It's about things going well.

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Speaker 2: It's about streamlining the public sector, I said, getting them

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Speaker 2: being making territory that can do plants we make ourselves,

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Speaker 2: can do place and start to bring that investment in.

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Speaker 2: Our budget is in a perilous position. The territory economy

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Speaker 2: is starting to make that term. We're starting to see

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Speaker 2: some growth in some certain areas, so it will be

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Speaker 2: that own source revenue and that economic growth that will

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Speaker 2: help get us out of the hole. But also we've

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Speaker 2: got to do some work with the federal government. So

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Speaker 2: Treasury are working on our compact with the federal government

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Speaker 2: on what our GST revenue looks like and because that

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Speaker 2: has a big effect on the territory at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day. So there's a number of things we're

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Speaker 2: working on and will that budget repair and particularly our

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Speaker 2: debt recovery will be part of the twenty twenty five

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Speaker 2: budget that will be releasing in the next few months.

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Speaker 1: Bill A quick one. I'm being told that some public

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Speaker 1: servants receive notification that there was a miscalculation on their

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Speaker 1: pays for public holidays. They're now having to be paid back.

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Speaker 1: How many people impacted and how much is that balls

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Speaker 1: up going to cost.

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm not sure exactly how many purbocating. I know

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Speaker 2: that the majority are within the health sector and the

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Speaker 2: shift workers, and it was involving public holidays and there

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Speaker 2: was a miscalculation in that pays. My understanding is around

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Speaker 2: about nineteen or twenty million dollars over a number of years.

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Speaker 2: So this goes back quite a way. And again I said,

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Speaker 2: this is a legacy issue that I'm happy to deal

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Speaker 2: with now and again. These are the things that affect

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Speaker 2: their bottom line and our ability to do the things

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Speaker 2: that we want to do. So Bill, it just seems

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Speaker 2: to be one issue after another day.

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Speaker 1: It seems that way, mate. A couple of really quickly

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Speaker 1: listener questions. I've got one here, Good morning, Katie. Can

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Speaker 1: you please ask Bill Yan how much does the government

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Speaker 1: spend on patient travel for medical assistance that our hospital

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Speaker 1: cannot provide.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't have that figure off the top of my head, Katie.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy to take that one on notice and get

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Speaker 2: that number back there, but yeah, off the top of

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Speaker 2: my head, I wouldn't have that.

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Speaker 1: No, that's all right. We will definitely follow that up.

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Speaker 1: Another one come through from a local contractor who says

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Speaker 1: that he's doing it tough. It says, good morning, Katie.

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Speaker 1: Can you ask the honorable Bill Yan when the COLP

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Speaker 1: government will meet the local civil contractors to discuss the

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Speaker 1: issues within DIPPLE. We cannot even get meetings after multiple requests.

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Speaker 1: We hope the CLP will be reasonable.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, I've met with I think that some

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Speaker 2: of the peak bodies for the civil contractors and I've

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Speaker 2: met with our department, I gave and I've given a

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Speaker 2: commitment pretty well to all the way to the peak

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Speaker 2: bodies that I'll meet with the quarterly to discuss the issues.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy to sit down with anyone, Katie and have

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Speaker 2: a chat. But I know I'm doing a huge piece

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Speaker 2: of reform work, and so it was Louise McCormack, the

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Speaker 2: new CE in DLI, to change how we're doing business

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Speaker 2: within d I want the communication from d LI out

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Speaker 2: to our contractors and our proponents to be better and

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Speaker 2: both ways. The key to achieving good outcomes within government

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Speaker 2: is good communication and that's between our departments and the

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Speaker 2: people that do that work for us, our contractors and

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Speaker 2: other proponents. So it's a piece of work I know

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Speaker 2: Louise is working on, like to hopefully give assurances to

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Speaker 2: it the person that's called in that those communication lines

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Speaker 2: will be opening up, because that's a key priority for

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Speaker 2: me as part of that reform for d A line.

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Speaker 1: Bill just very quickly. I mean, you've described the budget

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Speaker 1: being in a perilous position and you know said that

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Speaker 1: we are in a difficult, difficult spot right now. Can

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Speaker 1: you just guarantee to our listeners though that despite that,

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Speaker 1: and despite the fact that we really need to get

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Speaker 1: some movement into the Northern Territory in terms of major projects,

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Speaker 1: that you're not going to be sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: going overboard and crossing boundaries when it comes to the environment,

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Speaker 1: or you know, selling off assets and cutting jobs and

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Speaker 1: doing all the things that the former CLP. Giles government did.

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Speaker 2: So I can give you that guarantee, Katie, we won't

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Speaker 2: be doing that. And the Territory coordinated stuff has been

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Speaker 2: I suppose interesting in the fact that everyone seems to

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Speaker 2: think that we're going to bypass all of these regulations.

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Speaker 2: These regulations exist, and what the Territory Coordinator is there

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Speaker 2: to do is to make sure that the departments and

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Speaker 2: agenies meet their timeframes. That's the key part. We don't

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Speaker 2: want to have to go in and make those decisions.

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Speaker 2: The Churchy Coordinator doesn't want to have to do that.

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Speaker 2: We want our departments and agencies working quickly and efficiently

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Speaker 2: to make the decisions that they need to do so

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Speaker 2: the Territory Coordinating can get on with driving investment and

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Speaker 2: attracting investment to the territory. So we're not about to

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Speaker 2: bypass I said all these different laws. We're not about

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Speaker 2: to sell off assets and bits and pieces. But the

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Speaker 2: one thing I will say, Cayd is that there's some

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Speaker 2: things that the government can't do and don't do well,

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Speaker 2: and that's where we want to get the private investment

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Speaker 2: and private industry and proponents to come in and work

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Speaker 2: with us. So we're working up as some stuff now

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Speaker 2: around proposals from the private sector to come and work

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Speaker 2: with work with government to help us grow the economy

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Speaker 2: and grow the territory because sometimes the private sector can

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Speaker 2: do it better than us, and sometimes we shouldn't be

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Speaker 2: in that marketplace because the government doesn't have to be everything.

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Speaker 2: That's why we have the private sector out there, and

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Speaker 2: if we're providing the right environment, we will see that

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Speaker 2: private sector investment starting to flow into the territory and

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Speaker 2: that's certainly what we want to see.

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Speaker 1: We are going to have to leave it there. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for your time this morning, Treasurer Bill Yan,

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Speaker 1: the Treasurer of the Northern Territory. Thanks mate,