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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Sitdown.

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Speaker 1: I'm Matt Prolopa, writer for oz open dot com and.

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Speaker 2: I'm viv Christine, managing editor of us Join In Tennis Magazine.

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Speaker 2: And Matt, why are we sitting down this week with

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Speaker 2: Donna Kelso?

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Speaker 1: Well, if we bumped into Donna at the United Cup draw.

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Speaker 1: So she's a WTA supervisor and she was home for

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Speaker 1: a rare week a miiddle of her global travels in Sydney,

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Speaker 1: and we just asked her as she'd like to appear

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Speaker 1: on the podcast because she's been in tennis for a

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Speaker 1: very very long time and we figured she'd have a

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Speaker 1: great story to tell. And so yeah, she joined us

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Speaker 1: on the episode and it was really interesting.

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Speaker 2: Donna Calso, thank you for joining us today on the

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Speaker 2: sit Down. It's great to have you with us. We

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Speaker 2: catch you, i think in a rare week at home

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Speaker 2: in Sydney.

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Speaker 3: You're absolutely correct, Thank you so much for the invitation. Then, yes,

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Speaker 3: happy to share some of my journey with you.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of that journey, your love of tennis started in

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Speaker 2: a really interesting way. I understand you want to racket

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Speaker 2: in a competition. Tell us a little bit more about

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Speaker 2: your start in tennis what you loved about at the

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Speaker 2: mist that's right, as.

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Speaker 3: You correctly alluded to, I want a coloring in competition

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Speaker 3: age eight, first prize was a tennis racket, so probably

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Speaker 3: better have some tennis lessons to put that racket to

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Speaker 3: good use. And it was fun. It was a good

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Speaker 3: way to meet people. Obviously to be a little bit active,

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Speaker 3: so into the local tennis school where I grew up

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Speaker 3: in the Saint George area in Sydney, and it was

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Speaker 3: a fun way to spend time on the weekends after school,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. And that's how my love of tennis began.

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Speaker 2: Basically, it's the start of an amazing journey in tennis really,

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Speaker 2: which has taken you into a career in umpiring and officiating.

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Speaker 3: What inspired you to take that path? I think growing

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Speaker 3: up playing local junior branch comp or local tournaments, the

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Speaker 3: culture was that in addition to playing, you would also

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Speaker 3: umpire each other's matches. Similarly, the tennis school I went to,

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Speaker 3: which was owned by Bill Gilmore who was a very

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Speaker 3: highly prominent referee. When it rained, instead of tennis lessons

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Speaker 3: being canceled, we would go and sit in the shed

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Speaker 3: and we would learn the rules of tennis, and something

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Speaker 3: that I think was ingrained in us from a very

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Speaker 3: young age that we would learn about the sport, learn

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Speaker 3: about the history and obviously the rules of the competition.

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Speaker 3: So I found it quite fascinating. And Bill Gilmore, being

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Speaker 3: the referee for the New South Welles Open, which was

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Speaker 3: then held at White City, would recruit a lot of

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Speaker 3: the ball persons and a lot of the line umpires

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Speaker 3: from his tennis schools. So I tried out age fourteen

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Speaker 3: as a ball girl, was highly unsuccessful, but my best

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Speaker 3: friend was it was probably a little bit too young

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Speaker 3: to go down the officiating pathway. So two years later,

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Speaker 3: age sixteen, went to a three hour long run on

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Speaker 3: Pire training session at White City and the following week

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Speaker 3: we were calling lines of the New South I was Open,

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Speaker 3: so that who Yeah, it was a fun way to

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Speaker 3: spend a couple of weeks during the school holiday. So

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Speaker 3: still it's still in year eleven back then, and we

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Speaker 3: had a really good social network, a really good social group.

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Speaker 3: We would drive into White City together.

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Speaker 4: And we would leave early so we would get a

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Speaker 4: parking spot and we would be able to get on

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Speaker 4: the first match because we got paid per match in

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Speaker 4: those days, so the earlier you got there, you could

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Speaker 4: maybe squeeze four matches in a day instead of three,

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Speaker 4: and at seven dollars per match.

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Speaker 3: From memory, that made a bit of a difference. Was

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Speaker 3: that quite daunting?

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Speaker 2: I mean you were very young, and it's quite a

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Speaker 2: you know, that comes with a lot of responsibility that job.

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Speaker 3: It does absolutely. I think you'll find though that many

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Speaker 3: of us did start at that age, some who continued

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Speaker 3: on to have quite lengthy tennis officiating careers. Coincidentally, Wayne McEwen,

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Speaker 3: straight open referee, was at that very same line umpire

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Speaker 3: training session back in nineteen eighty two and we actually

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Speaker 3: used to play tennis against each other even before then.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, so fairly productive, you know, through our line

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Speaker 3: up training session. And some of those other officials went

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Speaker 3: on to travel internationally to become you know, chair umpires,

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Speaker 3: but obviously some stopped after they've finished high school or

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Speaker 3: when they finished UNI or found full time jobs. But

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Speaker 3: it was fun, it was social, I mean, obviously a

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Speaker 3: great way to see tennis up close and personal, and yeah,

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Speaker 3: we developed a really cool group. Yes, I think starting

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Speaker 3: at a younger age, you maybe don't overthink a lot

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Speaker 3: of things that you might if you were a little

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Speaker 3: bit older, so we probably didn't recognize the enormity of

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Speaker 3: it at the time. But there were also many of

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Speaker 3: us who did start at that very very young age

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Speaker 3: sixteen seventeen eighteen, as did a lot of other countries.

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Speaker 3: You know, you'll find that they're officials started at a

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Speaker 3: younger age, but sometimes it just takes a little longer

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Speaker 3: to go along the pathway to become more prominent.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever get hit by a ball as a

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Speaker 1: lines person, like down the centeration?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I did. I always think that.

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Speaker 1: The person that's doing the center tee when someone's serving,

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Speaker 1: I just think, God, duck for cover.

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Speaker 3: I hated doing seed to serve at the Sydney Indoor,

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Speaker 3: the Entertainment Center calling center serve, and I just despise

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Speaker 3: it so much because I was in fear of a

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Speaker 3: ball coming and hitting me that I think I sort

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Speaker 3: of ducked, closed my eyes and the ball bounced off

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Speaker 3: my forehead after I don't know, I don't even know

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Speaker 3: if I called it in or out, but anyway, that's

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Speaker 3: kind of saved myself more and anything.

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Speaker 2: So alongside all the skills that you need for a

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Speaker 2: line officiating career reflexes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, some gymnastics, so you obviously graduated away from

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Speaker 1: lines and ended up becoming a gold Badge umpire in

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Speaker 1: the chair in the nineteen nineties, and you told us

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Speaker 1: that there was some incredible milestones in your career. You

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Speaker 1: officiated the Atlanta Olympics gold medal match between Davenport and

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Speaker 1: Sanchez for Carrio. You did five Australian Open finals. I

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Speaker 1: remember the US Open finally ninety seven between Hingus and

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Speaker 1: Venus two teenagers. That was kind of my era growing up.

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Speaker 1: I remember watching that on TV. And also Monica sellers

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Speaker 1: come back in ninety ninety five in Canada. That must

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Speaker 1: have been particularly special given what had happened to her.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and you know, yes, the Grand Slam finals are amazing.

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Speaker 3: You know, they were all very different, but I think

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Speaker 3: for me, Monica Sellis's comeback match after what happened to

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Speaker 3: her was just so meaningful. And to begin the privilege

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Speaker 3: of umpiring the match when she was to walk back

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Speaker 3: onto a tennis court for the first time after the

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Speaker 3: horrific incident that she suffered, Nobody knew how she was

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Speaker 3: going to play, how she was going to react. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: the crowd was just in an there was just this

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Speaker 3: raw when she came down the stets onto the court

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Speaker 3: and you could feel the goosebumps and it was probably

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Speaker 3: just one of the most special moments I can remember

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Speaker 3: having the privilege of being part of on a tennis court.

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Speaker 3: She subsequently won that match, won the next match, and

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Speaker 3: actually went on to win the tournament I can remember correctly.

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Speaker 3: She beat Anka Huber in the final, So she beat

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Speaker 3: some really high profile players, highly ranked players at the time.

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Speaker 3: So first tournament back and I umpired the final as

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Speaker 3: well that week, And yeah, I think, you know, on

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Speaker 3: a personal level, on a human level, that's the match

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Speaker 3: that sticks out for me more so than anything else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a nice full circle to do her first match

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Speaker 1: in her last match at the tournament as well.

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Speaker 3: That's pretty special here, absolutely very very special.

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Speaker 1: And five AO finals that's amazing. Obviously we're very interested

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Speaker 1: in that because we're an AO podcast. So I think

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Speaker 1: was your last one Hingus and Martinez in ninety eight.

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Speaker 3: It was that was my last ever match in the

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Speaker 3: chair as an umpire.

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Speaker 1: Wow, And another also incredible story to watch Hingus's rise.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she had such a fantastic time here at

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Speaker 1: the AO. Did you do her ninety seven final as well.

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Speaker 3: Oh you're testing me now, I think I did. Okay,

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Speaker 3: I think I did. I did out of the I

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Speaker 3: did five out of six years.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: At that stage I also unpied Martina Hingis's first ever

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Speaker 3: professional match, which is in Zurich when she was fourteen,

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Speaker 3: and I can remember then there were so many players, coaches,

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Speaker 3: tournament staff, tour stuff. Everybody wanted to come out and see,

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Speaker 3: you know, what this female was all about. And obviously

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Speaker 3: she went on she won that match and impaired a

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Speaker 3: lot of her matches, a lot of her finals throughout

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Speaker 3: her career.

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Speaker 1: So at the time that was pretty significant that you

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Speaker 1: were a gold bad Jumphie, because you were only one

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Speaker 1: of two women who were at that level at that time,

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Speaker 1: and you've told us that kind of maybe you didn't

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Speaker 1: recognize the significance of that at the time, but now

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Speaker 1: that you think about it, that actually was a really

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Speaker 1: big deal.

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Speaker 3: It was, and I think coming into officiating, obviously there

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Speaker 3: were a handful of high profile female role models in

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Speaker 3: tennis officiating, but there were certainly a lot more males

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Speaker 3: compared to females. It was tough and especially breaking through

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Speaker 3: to umpiring men's matches. As a female, there were really

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Speaker 3: really not that many of us, so it was it

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Speaker 3: was tough to break through. We found it very different

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Speaker 3: being females ampiring men's matches compared to women's matches, and sometimes,

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Speaker 3: funnily enough, some of the tougher male players, maybe sort

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Speaker 3: of lower ranked or challenger players responded differently and may

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Speaker 3: I say even possibly better behaved when there were females

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Speaker 3: in the chair, which is always quite interesting. And when

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Speaker 3: I look back now, I'm very very proud of that achievement,

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Speaker 3: you know, hopefully forging the way for female officials and

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Speaker 3: giving upcoming female officials somebody to look up to. One

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Speaker 3: of my passions now is you know, mentoring and helping

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Speaker 3: other officials, because I know when I came through, I

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Speaker 3: had some outstanding women. Georgina Clark, who was a former

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Speaker 3: longtime WTA supervisor and a cheir umpire prior to that.

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Speaker 3: Also Pat Walker, who was from New South Wales who

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Speaker 3: was originally a chair umpire and then she was the

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Speaker 3: chief umpire at the time when we all started officiating.

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Speaker 3: She was very much an advocate of giving young officials

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Speaker 3: an opportunity and giving other females opportunities. In one of

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Speaker 3: my roles at WTA tournaments, I have the wonderful job

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Speaker 3: of fulfilling ticket requests. So about twenty years ago, I

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Speaker 3: was doing the ticketing for Indian Wells and we had

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Speaker 3: a request from our then COO for some of his family,

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Speaker 3: which included a young twelve year old girl by the

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Speaker 3: name of Madison Shoemaker. Anyway, so I met Scott and

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Speaker 3: Mary and the parents and Maddie and her brother, and

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Speaker 3: apparently after we'd been chatting for a bit, she turned

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Speaker 3: around to a paris and said, I want to be

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Speaker 3: like her. So she remembers my walkie talkie and my

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Speaker 3: credentially anything. Anyway, she went on to play collegiate tennis,

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Speaker 3: went on to become an intern with the WTA and

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Speaker 3: has held a number of roles within the WTA rankings, coordinator,

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Speaker 3: tour operations. Last weekend she passed her Silver Badge referee

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Speaker 3: school and is now a WTA supervisor. Oh wow, that's

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Speaker 3: probably my most prolific story, especially somebody so young to

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Speaker 3: see a female role model in the sport that she loves.

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Speaker 3: And she took her twenty years, but she's achieved her dream.

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Speaker 3: And I could not be more proud. It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: Congratulations. Is it that diversity or is there something else

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Speaker 1: that makes it so special that has kept you in

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Speaker 1: the role for so long, because clearly it has been

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Speaker 1: really rewarding.

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Speaker 3: It's the opportunity I think for me now, particularly the

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Speaker 3: longer I'm involved, to feel as though you're helping to

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Speaker 3: make a difference. Because all of the players who are

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Speaker 3: competing now on the WTA Tour I've known since they

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Speaker 3: started their journey on the tour, and when players first

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Speaker 3: come to play a tur or level, I think one

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Speaker 3: of the biggest responsibilities we have is educating them on

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Speaker 3: the rules, on the procedures, you know, feeling that it's

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Speaker 3: it's a safe space to walk into the w TA office,

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Speaker 3: that we're not scary. Yes, sometimes we have to make

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Speaker 3: tough decisions or decisions that individual players don't necessarily agree with,

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Speaker 3: particularly around scheduling. However, we need to fulfill a lot

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Speaker 3: of different requests, particularly in scheduling between the players, the

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Speaker 3: tournament's international broadcast, domestic broadcast, et cetera. And also look

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Speaker 3: to to schedule with parity and looking at the overall tournament. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but again, forming, you know, meaningful working relationships with players,

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Speaker 3: coaches and their their players, support teams and feeling like

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Speaker 3: you're you're helping, you share their you witness their their

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Speaker 3: joys and their celebrations. You're there also at times when

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Speaker 3: you know they have disappointments, whether it's through loss or injury,

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Speaker 3: but just to be able to feel like we're helping.

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Speaker 3: Similarly with the tournaments, because we service the tournaments as well,

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Speaker 3: part of our responsibility is to share best practices. If

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Speaker 3: we see something that a tournament does really well that

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Speaker 3: we think another tournament you could learn from, then we're

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Speaker 3: coming forth with suggestions. We're you know, we're writing lengthy

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Speaker 3: reports at the end of the tournament with player feedback,

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Speaker 3: stuff feedback. So, yeah, every day is different, every week

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Speaker 3: is different. We start off with a template that we follow,

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Speaker 3: so we know, you know, every tournament has a certain

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Speaker 3: daw size, a certain schedule, timings that you adhere to,

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Speaker 3: whether it be the signings, the stuff out of play,

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Speaker 3: start of different sessions, and then you know culminates with

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Speaker 3: the finals at the end of the week. So you

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Speaker 3: sort of go on this bit of a rollercoaster journey,

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Speaker 3: particularly at the Slams too, being there you know, three

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Speaker 3: three and a half weeks. For me, there's that incredible

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Speaker 3: buzz and excitement day one, main draw of a Grand

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Speaker 3: Slam that it never gets old. But I also still

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Speaker 3: love the travel, going to new places. Oftentimes we'll go

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Speaker 3: back to the same places year after year after year,

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Speaker 3: which is something that for many tournaments they love having

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Speaker 3: the continuity of the same supervisor. But also if I'm

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Speaker 3: going back to the same tournament, I know who to

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Speaker 3: go to to get things done. I know who's responsible

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Speaker 3: for you know, the locker rooms, the transport, the accreditation,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. Who to go to with a specific issue,

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Speaker 3: and you know, we almost pick come part of the

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Speaker 3: tournament team for that week. Do you have.

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Speaker 2: Favorite places to travel or favorite tournaments?

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Speaker 3: I certainly do. My favorite place is to travel Paris

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Speaker 3: and New York, great cities. Don't ask me to choose

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Speaker 3: between the two because that's almost impossible. In terms of

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Speaker 3: favorite tournaments and destinations as well on the tour. Do

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Speaker 3: you buy an Indian Wells? Two of my favorite spots

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Speaker 3: Indian Wells. If you've ever been there, you know the

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Speaker 3: desert a couple of hours from La surrounded by snow

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Speaker 3: capped mountains and palm trees, and there's just this feeling

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Speaker 3: of serenity out there, and I think that transcends into

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Speaker 3: the tournament itself. D Youbai just I love the city.

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Speaker 3: I love the yeah, phenomenal level of service. Anywhere you

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Speaker 3: go the hotel is on site, so no transport needed

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Speaker 3: to get to work, just walk past the duck pond

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Speaker 3: in the morning. So I mean every tournament. I went

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Speaker 3: back to Rome this year for the first time in

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Speaker 3: twenty one years, so it was great to see how

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Speaker 3: that had hadn't changed in some aspects and some areas

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Speaker 3: that had not changed at all. So yeah, I love

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Speaker 3: the variety. And for me also there's that finite start

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Speaker 3: and finish of a tournament, so when you do conclude

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Speaker 3: the event, it's like, you know, hopefully, job well done,

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Speaker 3: move on to the next one. Although in saying that,

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Speaker 3: I'm already in preparation mode. I'm currently working on Brisbane, AO,

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Speaker 3: Dubai and Indian Worlds for next year.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 3: And then in January, well next month I'll start working.

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Speaker 3: I'm going back to Berlin for the first time in

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Speaker 3: more than twenty years, so excited to go there. Already

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Speaker 3: started some discussions around Roland Garros. Yeah, so it's continuous,

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Speaker 3: amazing advice.

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Speaker 2: Now you are famous for your shoe collection. Can we

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Speaker 2: talk about your shoes please?

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Speaker 3: Of course you can. There's something that started quite a

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Speaker 3: while bag. I'm one of these people you know, either post,

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Speaker 3: you know, post something fun, post something nice, or don't

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Speaker 3: post anything at all. And I do have a love

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Speaker 3: of shoes, so I would often take a photo of

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Speaker 3: my shoes after i'd unpacked them lined up in the

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Speaker 3: hotel room. And for example, these are the successful shoes

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Speaker 3: that have been, you know, chosen for the twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: five Australian Open or something silly like that. So then

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Speaker 3: that sort of take it off and I'll get to

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Speaker 3: tournaments sometimes and friends will say to me, where's your

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Speaker 3: shoe photo? I haven't seen your shoe photo online yet.

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Speaker 3: Or I've seen other friends, often male, who might post

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Speaker 3: a photo of their you know, three pairs of shoes

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Speaker 3: that they're looking to the tournament when I've got about twelve.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I am trying to be a bit more cognizant of

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Speaker 3: what I'm packing and you know, trying to scale down

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Speaker 3: a little bit, but it doesn't always happen. I like

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Speaker 3: being if I'm at a tournament for two weeks or

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Speaker 3: three weeks. I like to have options learnly. Yeah, plast

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Speaker 3: drive cleaning is very expensive.

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Speaker 2: So also your your shoe fans would be very disappointed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't want to be seeing the shoe collection

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Speaker 1: whittling down.

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Speaker 3: I I'm one of those fans. It's funny. And again,

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Speaker 3: you know, we sometimes you just need to have a

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Speaker 3: sense of humor about different things. And you know, we're

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Speaker 3: not saving lives, but we we sometimes are doing things

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Speaker 3: that are very very serious, and we certainly take our

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Speaker 3: role serious. But if you can have a little bit

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Speaker 3: of fun along the way, then you know, then why not.

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Speaker 1: What makes the cut on finals day? Like is there

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Speaker 1: is there the shoe that's like the special occasion shoe

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Speaker 1: or the big match shoe. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: It depends what surface.

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Speaker 1: Oh, of course, yes.

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Speaker 3: So for example, when working at Wimbledon as a Grand

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Speaker 3: Slam supervisor, I would always show my shoes to the

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Speaker 3: head groundsmen to make sure that they were suitable, and

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Speaker 3: that became a little bit of a joke between us

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Speaker 3: as well, like are these you know, are these shoes

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Speaker 3: okay to wear on center court? And because you obviously

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Speaker 3: you don't want to use to Letto's and put divots

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Speaker 3: in the court if you have to run on the court.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, there's there's qualifying shoes as main draw shoes,

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Speaker 3: as final stay shoes. There you know, black tie gala shoes,

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Speaker 3: not where we go to many of them. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: people are noticing that there's a lot more ballet flats

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Speaker 3: and sneakers coming into the collection compared two years ago.

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Speaker 3: But that's you know, that's the fashion though, isn't it

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Speaker 3: so exactly.

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Speaker 1: You said in terms of what you do day to day,

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Speaker 1: sometimes you get to watch a bit of tennis. We've

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Speaker 1: actually seen you on TV a courtside it some incredible

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Speaker 1: matches when you do get that little bit of time

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Speaker 1: to watch tennis, And because you've been in the sport

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Speaker 1: for so long, you must have seen some incredible matches

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Speaker 1: and moments and highlights. And I just we're just wondering

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Speaker 1: what have stuck with you?

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, if I had to think when Pat

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Speaker 3: Rafter won his first US Open, oh yeah, which was

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Speaker 3: again nineteen ninety seven, I was able to watch that

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Speaker 3: as a spectator because I knew that I had, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'd unpied the Ladies final which is before that, I've

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Speaker 3: been to a couple of Davis Cup ties where I've

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Speaker 3: had no involvement working and been able to watch and not.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say, you know, I don't overly support because

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Speaker 3: we're just in the habit of not clapping and not

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Speaker 3: showing emotion.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, similar, yes, I.

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Speaker 3: Would say I'm clapping on the inside, so you know,

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Speaker 3: but it's very very rare that you get an opportunity

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Speaker 3: to watch and through the eyes of a spectator.

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Speaker 1: We remember pats yours open wing. Well, I remember that

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Speaker 1: even being late for school, Mum, let us stay until

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Speaker 1: the ended clinch match point. Then it's like right in

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Speaker 1: the car I got to go to school that Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we were allowed to watch that. It was amazing, fantastic.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's been an incredible career that you have constructed, Donna.

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Speaker 2: You must be well, you should be so so proud

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Speaker 2: of everything that you've achieved in tennis. And I imagine

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Speaker 2: it's one that you would recommend to other people.

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Speaker 3: I would certainly recommend a career in tennis, whether it's

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Speaker 3: you know, as an official, as a supervisor, or in

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Speaker 3: any other aspect. And I think what we've see too

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Speaker 3: is that there are so many more and varied roles

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Speaker 3: in working in tennis, you know, than there were if

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Speaker 3: you even if you go back, you know, ten twenty years,

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Speaker 3: there are so many new roles for anybody who loves

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Speaker 3: the sport and particularly who loves to travel and meet people.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, highly highly recommended.

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Speaker 2: Well, lots of great takeaways from that interview. One of

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Speaker 2: them for me is I will never feel guilty about

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Speaker 2: overpacking again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we need to take it from the best in

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Speaker 1: the business. And yeah, I think it's an outfit for

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Speaker 1: every occasion. I like Donna's advice.

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Speaker 2: You can never have too many pairs of shoes. But also,

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Speaker 2: Donna has featured in so many memorable moments for the sport,

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Speaker 2: especially in recent women's tennis history. So wasn't it amazing

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Speaker 2: to hear some of her stories of those experiences.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so great that she's been a great role

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Speaker 1: model and inspiration to people. But one thing I loved

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Speaker 1: hearing was that just it felt fitting that her final

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Speaker 1: match in the chair as a gold bad jumpire was

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Speaker 1: at her home Grand Slam, in a Grand Slam final.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like the pinnacle of umpiring, So that

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Speaker 1: was lovely.

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Speaker 2: It is the pinnacle of umpiring, and I guess particularly

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Speaker 2: special because I think many Australians have been inspired by

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Speaker 2: Donna's path and I think many women as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. Well, we'll be back again next week

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Speaker 1: with another episode of The Sea Down, but in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: you can listen to John and Brie and the team

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Speaker 1: this Thursday on the Aoshow Weekly.

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Speaker 2: Details for how to contact us are in the show notes,

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Speaker 2: and please subscribe, rate and review. See you next week, Matt,

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Speaker 2: See you en vib