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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, I'm a fiction reader, and anybody who's a fiction

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Speaker 2: reader knows that a big part of fiction is gossip.

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Speaker 2: You're peering into the life of someone else, and you're

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Speaker 2: peering into the mind of the author. What could be

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Speaker 2: more delicious and juicy. So I link gossip and fiction

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Speaker 2: very closely.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson.

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Speaker 4: I written six books about raising happy families, and I'm

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Speaker 4: a parent to six daughters with my co host and wife, Kylie,

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Speaker 4: who you know best as missus Happy Families. And before

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Speaker 4: you start talking, because I can see that it's on

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Speaker 4: the type of your time, I'm so excited about today

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Speaker 4: because we're going to talk about gossip.

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Speaker 3: That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying.

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Speaker 5: Oh, you're such a tease. I was going to talk.

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Speaker 4: About that, and you can more about gospend a sec.

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Speaker 4: But I'm excited for today, that's all I'm saying.

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Speaker 5: Well, for the last two wednesdays, we've been talking with

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Speaker 5: Susan Engel, who's an educator and researcher in the areas

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Speaker 5: of psychology and education, as well as authoring the books

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Speaker 5: The Hungry Mind, The Origins of Curiosity in Childhood, and

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Speaker 5: The Intellectual Lives of Children.

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Speaker 4: So if you've missed the last couple of interviews, it's

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Speaker 4: worth going back. We'll link to the last two episodes

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Speaker 4: in the show notes. I've made this abundantly clear. I

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Speaker 4: really love what Susan has done, especially with her book

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Speaker 4: The Hungry Mind. I've said it before and I'll say

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Speaker 4: it again. If you're an education or if you're a

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Speaker 4: parent who cares about your children's learning, I just think that.

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Speaker 3: It's compulsory reading.

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Speaker 4: It's such a great book, highly recommended by yours truly.

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Speaker 5: Well, you were a bit of a tease at the beginning,

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Speaker 5: but I'm going to ask question anyway. Welcome back to

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Speaker 5: the podcast, Susan.

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Speaker 2: Okay, great to talk to you.

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Speaker 5: In The Hungry Mind, you talk about gossip and how

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Speaker 5: it fuels learning. Justin gave us a little bit of

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Speaker 5: teas at the beginning, But can you explain more about

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Speaker 5: this idea?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so mystery fuels learning. We've talked about that things

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Speaker 2: that are unexpected, things that make you want to delve in,

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Speaker 2: whether it's a pile of bugs under some leaves, or

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Speaker 2: whether it's a topic you've never thought about before.

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Speaker 4: And this is why clickbait works so well in new sites, right,

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Speaker 4: because they clickbait works so well in new sites, right

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Speaker 4: because yes, mystery, Oh what's behind the title here?

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Speaker 2: Then there's some really interesting new research showing the way

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Speaker 2: in which you can do a kind of you can

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Speaker 2: feed your curiosity online with that kind of clickbaiting, or

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Speaker 2: the way in which you can avoid really learning about

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Speaker 2: anything because you're just skimming. That's a whole other topic. So,

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Speaker 2: but Google can be a child's friend if it's got,

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Speaker 2: if they're encouraged to use it in a good way,

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Speaker 2: and if they're encouraged to just kind of pursue something

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Speaker 2: in depth rather than jumping around for little, little quick

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Speaker 2: hits of pleasure. But gossip is so human. Wanting to

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Speaker 2: know what other what's happening in the lives of other

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Speaker 2: people is just about as human as you can get.

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Speaker 2: And while not all people are equally interested in gossip,

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Speaker 2: many people like it a lot, and kids like it

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Speaker 2: so at a pretty early age, kids want to know,

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Speaker 2: you know, did you really throw up before you got

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Speaker 2: to school today. I heard you did, and are you

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Speaker 2: trying out for band? Because I'm going to try out,

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Speaker 2: and you know, how would you get on the test?

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Speaker 2: And a lot of that, or did you really kiss

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Speaker 2: her in the hallway? I mean, kids do the same

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Speaker 2: thing grown ups do. They want to know about other people.

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Speaker 2: And who doesn't love a good story about a neighbor

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Speaker 2: or a rival or a teacher. Oh my god, kids

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Speaker 2: love gossip about teachers. And I think if we understood

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Speaker 2: that it's a very healthy form of gossip, and I

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Speaker 2: mean of curiosity and a way to encourage kids to

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Speaker 2: gather knowledge, we take a different stance towards it. Actually,

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Speaker 2: there's some great research about the way in which humans

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Speaker 2: everywhere use gossip as a form of cautioning to children

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Speaker 2: to teach them what are the expected norms and their culture.

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Speaker 2: So you tell cautionary tales when you gossip who did

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Speaker 2: the wrong thing and got in trouble and had a

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Speaker 2: bad end, And so we instinctively use gossip for good

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Speaker 2: purposes as well as bad ones. But I would just

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Speaker 2: end this by saying that one thing that I think

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Speaker 2: people overlook but I'm comfortable saying because I'm a I

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Speaker 2: love gossip. I've already told you that. I mean, after all,

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Speaker 2: I'm a psychologist, I always want to know more about people.

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Speaker 2: And two, I'm a fiction reader. And anybody who's a

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Speaker 2: fiction reader knows that a big part of fiction is gossip.

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Speaker 2: You're peering into the life of someone else, and you're

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Speaker 2: peering into the mind of the author. What could be

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Speaker 2: more delicious and juicy. So I link gossip and fiction

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Speaker 2: very closely. And I think if grown ups understood that

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Speaker 2: some of the time that children are kit chatting about

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Speaker 2: other people, they're probably just paving the way for being

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Speaker 2: really great fiction readers or fiction writers. It would give

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Speaker 2: them a different a different view of it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, all psychologists.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So one last quick question for your saysm before

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Speaker 4: we dive into this rapid fire. When we were talking earlier,

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Speaker 4: you talked about boredom and how boredom, when when you

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Speaker 4: were a child, was a spark or an opportunity for

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Speaker 4: you to get curious and explore and very there's a

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Speaker 4: big trend for the last few years about encouraging parents

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Speaker 4: to let their children be.

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Speaker 3: Bored because when children are boord they get.

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Speaker 4: To explore and learn and discover and become creative and

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Speaker 4: so forth. I also argue, though, that boredom is often

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Speaker 4: quite unhealthy. Boredom is associated with depression, boredom is associated

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Speaker 4: with any number of negative outcomes, and boredom is often

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Speaker 4: associated with delinquent behavior.

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Speaker 3: When kids get bored, they go.

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Speaker 4: And start to stir up their sister or their brother,

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Speaker 4: and you know, they graffiti all over a wall or

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Speaker 4: something like that. So I'm really curious about where boredom

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Speaker 4: can be positive and how it can be negative, and

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Speaker 4: how parents can manage that in such a way that

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Speaker 4: they give their children the benefits of boredom without the downside.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well I don't. I don't have a magic formula there,

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Speaker 2: but but there is there. It is complicated because kids.

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Speaker 2: I was thinking before about when I first said that

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Speaker 2: my kids had a lot of free time when they

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Speaker 2: were little, and how it's not a good idea to

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Speaker 2: overstructure your child's after school life for their weekends. But

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Speaker 2: it is true that children who have who are stuck

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Speaker 2: watching TV all the time or who are left at

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Speaker 2: home with that because their parents don't have the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to be with them, you know, at the end of

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Speaker 2: the school day, so it's often not the parent's fault.

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Speaker 2: It's society's fault for imposing a difficult life on them.

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Speaker 2: Those kids suffer kind of boredom that isn't good for them.

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Speaker 2: They become restless, or their mind turns off, or they

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Speaker 2: turn to trouble, and it's terrible anyway. It's just not

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Speaker 2: a good good way to live. So uh, there is,

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Speaker 2: if not a formula, some magical equation there, a little

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Speaker 2: bit of boredom goes a long way, I would put

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Speaker 2: it that way. And it's one thing to give your

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Speaker 2: child unstructured time in a fairly interesting, nice environment, whether

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Speaker 2: it's nice because they get to play on a safe

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Speaker 2: sidewalk with other neighbors, or because they're in a park,

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Speaker 2: or because they're in a house where they can explore.

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Speaker 2: I don't mean here plush and luxurious. I mean both

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Speaker 2: safe and interesting, filled with things that would be interesting

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Speaker 2: to examine or create or build. When that that is

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Speaker 2: a is a good kind of boredom because it's it

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Speaker 2: allows them to explore and to fall on their own resources.

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Speaker 2: But that's different than sort of being having a kind

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Speaker 2: of barren and deprived environment. And I'm not talking about that.

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Speaker 2: You know, so unstructured time where kids have to figure

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Speaker 2: out what they want to do or make things or

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Speaker 2: you know, poke around and investigate. That's wonderful and that's

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Speaker 2: the kind of boredom. Also, I will say daydreaming is

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Speaker 2: a good thing for kids, but not daydreaming all day

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Speaker 2: or for hours on end, because them kids are lonely

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Speaker 2: and they and they do go a little nutty, So

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Speaker 2: I don't mean that.

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Speaker 5: So, Susan, just to wrap up our final chat with you,

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Speaker 5: we thought it would be fun to play a bit

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Speaker 5: of a game. We call it the Past five, where

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Speaker 5: we shoot through five rapid questions.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so Susan, if we were to ask your kids

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Speaker 4: their favorite things to do with you, they're in their

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Speaker 4: thirties now, but what would they say.

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Speaker 2: I think they'd stay talking with.

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Speaker 3: Me, hm, being curious about the world together.

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Speaker 2: Yes, a nice way to put it. We also like

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Speaker 2: to eat together and take hikes together. But talking is

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Speaker 2: the number one.

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Speaker 5: What's your trickiest parenting moment as you reflect on the years?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god. I wrote a piece about this in

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Speaker 2: The New York Times a few years ago, the most

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Speaker 2: circulated thing I've ever written, because it was about how

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Speaker 2: agonizing it is to watch your grown up children go

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Speaker 2: through painful experiences. By far, that's the hardest thing, watching

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Speaker 2: your grown up children face adversity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I often reflect that they don't have to be grown

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Speaker 4: up to find it hard.

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Speaker 3: Just what your children go through hard things is such true, terrible.

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Speaker 2: It's just when they're little you have more agency, or

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Speaker 2: when they're grown up you just have to sit there

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Speaker 2: and be miserable.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Question number three, if you could spend an hour with

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Speaker 4: your children at any age at all, what age would

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Speaker 4: you choose and why?

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Speaker 2: That's an impossible question for me Right now, I'd say

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Speaker 2: now now as grown ups, I love having grown up children.

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Speaker 2: I love being with my kids. So two of my

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Speaker 2: sons live right next door with their partners and their

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Speaker 2: brand new babies, And so how could I wish them

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Speaker 2: to be any other age than the age they are?

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Speaker 2: That said, you can tell I like being a mom,

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Speaker 2: and I loved it when they were little too, Maybe

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Speaker 2: because they had boys, or maybe I lucked out. I

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Speaker 2: really liked having teenagers. I thought it was really fun

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Speaker 2: of teenage kids. Ye for everybody, No, that's definitely not

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Speaker 2: I found it fun.

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Speaker 5: No matter how good life has been, and how glad

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Speaker 5: you are to be in the moment with your thirty

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Speaker 5: plus year old kids. What are you still looking forward

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Speaker 5: to as a mom or maybe even a grandma.

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Speaker 2: Seeing them thrive? I mean, you know, I'm too old

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Speaker 2: for you to ask for me to give the usual

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Speaker 2: kind of answer to that. Too. Many of the things

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Speaker 2: I have to look forward to are not that good.

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Speaker 2: But and now watching them, Ohio, I have an answer.

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Speaker 2: Watching them be parents. It has been amazing, amazing and

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Speaker 2: so something I would never have expected, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: think about one second before my grandchildren were born. But

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Speaker 2: it's quite overwhelming in a good way, to watch your

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Speaker 2: own children be parents.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, last question, Susan, if you could go back to

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Speaker 4: Susan Engle as a young mom having one of those

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Speaker 4: tough moments, with no experience being a parent at all,

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Speaker 4: what advice would you give yourself.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was a working mom, and I would give

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Speaker 2: myself the advice of slowing down a little and not

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Speaker 2: being in such a rush all the time and just

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Speaker 2: cherish more of the moments I had with them.

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Speaker 3: Such great advice, such a wonderful conversation.

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Speaker 4: If people want to know more about you, the work

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Speaker 4: that you do your books. I mean, you've written extensively.

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Speaker 4: The book that I have been talking about primarily is

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Speaker 4: The Hungry Mind. But where do people go to find

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Speaker 4: out more about Susan Engle.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's plenty about me on the web, on whatever

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Speaker 2: it's called the Internet. I've given a lot of talks

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Speaker 2: that are on the Internet, the worldwide where Bay almost said,

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Speaker 2: but that's really out of date. I have a new

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Speaker 2: book called The Intellectual Lives of Children that picks up

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Speaker 2: with the Curiosity book left off. I don't know they

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Speaker 2: can write to me whatever.

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Speaker 5: Susan, thanks so much for being so generous with your

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Speaker 5: time in sharing some wonderful wisdom.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much, Susan.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so that concludes our conversation with Susan, the author

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Speaker 4: of The Hungry Mind, which addresses curiosity in children, and

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Speaker 4: her latest book is The Intellectual Lives of Children, which

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Speaker 4: picks up right where A Hungry Mind left off. Professor

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Speaker 4: Susan Engel, we really hope that you've enjoyed the podcast

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Speaker 4: and that it has helped you to make your family

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Speaker 4: happier and do great things in your family. Speaking of

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Speaker 4: people who have enjoyed the podcast, Jess, this Nickname is

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Speaker 4: Too Common has given us a five star review on

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Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts. I love the names that people come up

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Speaker 4: with when they put their ratings and reviews in just

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Speaker 4: this Nickname is Too Common has said five stars. Opening

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Speaker 4: doors for new perspective and more love for my children.

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Speaker 4: She says, I'm a new listener thoroughly enjoying the topics explored.

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Speaker 4: The information which comes from experience in scientific find things

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Speaker 4: to go along with it is invaluable. I'm already a

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Speaker 4: mother who endeavors to parent mindfully and kindly, but listen

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Speaker 4: to the podcast is absolutely opening doors for new perspective

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Speaker 4: and in turn more love for my children. It's a

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Speaker 4: wonderful added bonus that they're Aussie's too, because hey, Ozzie's

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Speaker 4: are great.

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Speaker 5: So I'm loving that she's a new listener.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, great to have you along.

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Speaker 2: Jest.

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Speaker 4: Thanks so much for taking time out to leave a

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Speaker 4: rating and review. If you do enjoy the podcast, please

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Speaker 4: do what Jes did and leave those five star ratings

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Speaker 4: and reviews, because that way other people get to find

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Speaker 4: out about the podcast and make their families happier. We

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Speaker 4: really appreciate the work of Justin Roland, our producer from

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Speaker 4: Bridge Media and our executive producer, Craig Bruce. If you'd

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Speaker 4: like more information about making your family happier, check out

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Speaker 4: happy families dot com dot au