WEBVTT - Can Violent Men Actually Be Reformed? Uncut with Dr Brian Sullivan 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:12.680 This episode was recorded on Cameragle Land. Hi guys, and 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:14.760 welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:16.040 I'm Laura, I'm Brittany. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:18.360 Now, as you know if you've been a part of 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.680 the Life Uncut family for any length of time, domestic 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:23.400 and male violence is something that we have. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.560 Spoken about for many, many years. 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.520 We have spoken to so many experts on this podcast 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:30.920 about this very thing, and it is really a conversation 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.520 that over the last couple of years has been hugely 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.280 thrust into the spotlight. And that's because it is something 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:39.959 that has not improved and is not getting better. I mean, 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:44.440 as we've all seen, women are screaming, screaming out for 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:46.920 reform and for changes to be made. In this way, 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:50.160 we've learnt that the most dangerous time for women fleeing 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.280 violence is when she actually decides to leave the home, 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.120 and also how many times it can take a woman 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.040 to actually leave a relationship where domestic violence is occurring. 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.480 We've spoken to victim survivors and family members of victims 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:05.000 of abuse and learn about the early warning signs of 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:08.440 violent perpetrators. But an aspect of violence that we haven't 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.920 really had an in depth conversation about is what happens 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:16.080 after she leaves? What happens after a woman actually makes 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:19.880 that choice to remove herself from that situation, and does 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.600 the violence continue and how does that violence transform. Joining 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.720 the podcast today is doctor Brian Sullivan. Doctor Brian is 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.320 an academic and the founder of Secure Domestic Violence Training 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.280 and Support. He has been working with men who use 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:37.200 violence in men's behavior change programs for almost twenty five years. 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:39.880 Brian is joined the third season of the podcast There's 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:42.320 No Place Like Home to address the changes that are 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.320 needed in our conversations about violence and to ask the 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:48.800 right questions questions like why does he do it? And 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:51.680 how do we help the next person leave safely? Brian, 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:52.760 Welcome to the podcast. 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.480 Thanks Laura, Thanks Britt. Great to be here with you. 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:58.280 Such an important topic. And as we just said, you've 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.680 been working in this industry for twenty five five years. 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.200 Can you just explain to us what is it exactly 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:03.640 that you do? 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:06.240 Well, that's a really good question, because it hasn't been 0:02:06.280 --> 0:02:09.000 the same thing for twenty five years. I got into 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:12.040 this work quite by accident. When I was studying in America. 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.360 I needed money basically, and I was doing one thousand 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.840 hours of internship for this doctoral program in the University 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.120 of Toledo, Ohio, and the only one I could find 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.840 that would pay me was as a co facilitator of 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.359 a court mandated program for domestically violent men. And one 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:29.560 of my colleagues, one of my friends over there, was 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:31.680 doing this work and she said, why don't you come 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.480 and do this work with me? So poverty got the 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.079 better of me. I was really up to that point. 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.840 I'd avoided, or thought i'd avoided domestic and family violence 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.080 in my work as a school counselor and as a 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:47.320 counselor anyway. I started the work and became quite fascinated 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.040 with these men's stories of how they justified and how 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:54.720 they rationalized their violence to make them sound like the 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:59.400 good guys and the victim was the provocateur, the crazy bitch, 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.680 to use their language, who was causing all this. And 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:07.320 it became so weird to hear them trying to justify 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.639 the unjustifiable in my book that I ended up doing 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.480 my doctoral research in that so I looked at the 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:18.040 effectiveness of court mandated programs for domestically violent men, and 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.359 when I came back to Australia, I started teaching in 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.600 universities University of New England in Armadale, University of Queensland, 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.520 and I was teaching courses on violence issues in counseling, 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.520 but I was also doing some training on the side 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.280 to those who wanted to learn how to work with 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:38.480 these men in intervention groups. I went back to practice 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:40.520 for a period of years where I was actually the 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:45.000 program manager for an organization in Logan up here south 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:49.920 of Brisbane called YFSS, the Responsible Men Program, and I 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:51.920 worked there as a program manager for a number of 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.800 years before returning to academia where I was teaching and 0:03:55.880 --> 0:04:00.760 doing research into domestic and family violence, focusing on men's 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:05.480 groups and interventions for men. And in about twenty twenty two, 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.080 I think it was, I started Secura, which is my 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:12.960 own training consultancy where I do training for police, corrective services, 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:17.800 men's behavior change groups, TV organizations. I've done training for 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:22.600 lawyers and for magistrates etc. So last year I was 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:25.279 on the board of the Red Rose Foundation and it's 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.919 a foundation that has been close to my heart for 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.320 a number of years. I was on the board there 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:32.680 for five or six years and then asked to be 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.839 the CEO when the founder a legend a woman called 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.800 Betty Taylor retired and I did that role for a year. 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.080 I always said it was caretaker role. I always thought 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:46.960 that position should be a role for a woman of 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:51.280 a women's organization working with women who were victim survivors 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:54.520 of non lethal strangulation. So I stood down from that 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.279 role at the start of this year and have gone 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.920 back to my securer work, where I'm continuing the train 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.760 an education for those who work with male perpetrators of 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.400 domestic violence. That's a long story. 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:09.520 Short You just mentioned something, Brian, that you worked very 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:14.560 closely listening to these perpetrators justify the unjustifiable. What is 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.720 the main rationale that you hear from these perpetrators And 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:22.520 do you genuinely think that they believe what they're saying 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:24.960 or do you think that they know what they're doing 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:27.640 is not right, but they're just trying to make an 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:29.000 excuse for their actions. 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:33.719 My experience over those years has led me to believe 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:40.200 that when a man tries to justify his violence, it's 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:44.360 really a strategy of image management, and that image management 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.320 is a double sided coin. So one side of the 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:51.200 image management is to make him look good, or even 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.400 to make him look like the victim of this evil woman, 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.880 of this psychotic woman, of this very unfair woman. And 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.560 the flip side, of course, is while making himself look good, 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:04.400 he has to make her look bad, so he has 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:08.120 to trash talk her. So when a man, and these 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.640 are typical strategies that men use when they front a 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.520 program and well into the program, until for many men, 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:18.160 the light goes on and they start to realize that 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:22.040 their dishonesty is not working, that we're not buying it. 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:26.400 So you think about yourself, if you deny you've done something, 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.919 if you try to excuse it, if you try to 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:32.680 blame someone else, if you try to minimize it, it 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:35.480 wasn't so bad. I know when I do that, I 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.719 know I've done something wrong, and I'm trying to cover 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.320 it up. It's a way of camouflaging what we know 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.960 is wrong. So I think, to answer your question, I 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.839 think that men have a belief system, or these men 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:51.560 have a belief system which is all about male privilege, 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:56.440 male entitlement, control over women and children. So when a 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:01.520 woman challenges that or doesn't comply with that, then he 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:05.480 ramps up and he then starts to get abusive or 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:10.679 increases his controlling behaviors, and to me, that's a way 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:16.200 of reinforcing or re establishing his worldview over hers. But 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:21.280 the fact that he's also minimizing, denying, blaming, justifying shows 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.360 me that he knows that what he's doing is actually wrong. 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.280 So that's where we want to get to in men's groups. 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:30.680 Get them to that point where they were honestly take 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.400 responsibility and fess up and say, yeah, I knew what 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.200 I was doing, I knew the harm it was causing, 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:39.920 and I know it's wrong. And I think once we 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.200 get to that level of honesty, then we can start 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:43.920 to work with men for change. 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:44.720 What is it? 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.280 Because we know that, you know, it's not just people 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.080 who have come from abusive households, or who have come 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.440 from drug addiction or I think there's used to be 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.000 this kind of thought that domestic violence was quite othering 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.000 and that it was only a specific type of male 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:00.800 that would do it. But as we've seen and recently, 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:05.200 people who come from incredibly privileged backgrounds can be perpetrators 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:08.040 of this violence all often. Ah yeah, And I guess 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.880 my question is what is it that creates this type 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.000 of monster in a man? What's happening in terms of 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:18.080 the social upbringing or in terms of the exposure that 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.760 they've had to think that they have this entitlement over women. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:26.200 Brilliant question. I think if we knew comprehensively and deeply 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.320 the answer to that question, we could work with these men, 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.000 maybe better than we're doing. But my take on that 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:35.200 is that typically a man, when he was a boy 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.319 generally or an adolescent, he's had a role model, whether 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:41.760 it's mum's husband, you know, his father or stepfather or 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.120 living boyfriend or whoever it was, get what he wants 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:50.400 by very disrespectful, abusive treatment of his partner, of the 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.679 boy's mother. The boy realizes at an early age that 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.160 this gets him what he wants, when he wants, and 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.439 how he wants. If this is how he treats a woman, 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.280 he can fulfill he thinks all his needs. And the 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.120 third part of that is he's gotten away with it. 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:09.280 And I think that's where societal interventions and courts, police 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:13.200 corrective services, child safety has to step up so that 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.920 men and really it goes back to families and communities 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.280 at an early age, early intervention that boys should not 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.120 be getting away with this sort of stuff. We need 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.240 to know what boys are up to I think at 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:29.000 earlier and you know that recent series Adolescence is showing 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:31.320 us that parents need to be far more aware of 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:33.360 what their boys are getting up to. When we know 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:37.680 that boys are accessing pawn at earlier and earlier ages 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:40.920 eight nine, we've got a major problem in the way 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:44.599 a boy's brain is developing in terms of his beliefs, 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:48.800 in terms of his attitudes, in terms of his values, 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:52.400 in terms of his developing masculinity. And you know, when 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.600 we're dealing with these men in groups after they've been 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.959 court ordered or on probation and parole to do these groups, 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:02.120 that beliefs system has been there for quite a while. 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.959 I have a sign on my wall which says first 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:08.439 time offender, long time abuser. So even though that might 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:10.760 be the first time he's been caught by police or 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:13.600 first time he's ever been to court, he's had this 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.640 belief system. He's been doing these behaviors for a long 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:17.520 period of time. 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:20.200 Well that's the thing, right, I mean, Statistically, most people 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:24.200 who almost men who use violence in the household never 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.120 spend time in prison. They never ever even face any 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.840 repercussions for it. And the people who do end up 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:33.560 in prison or do end up in these court mandated programs. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.439 The violence that they've used has to have been significant, 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:40.000 has to have been something that was able to be 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.600 proven in court, which often it can't be. It has 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.959 to be some reasonable about absolutely so inforce that it's 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.640 like an undeniable place. I guess my question is that 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:53.199 you deal with the worst version of these abusers, do 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.439 these programs work and is there a way of rehabilitating 0:10:56.480 --> 0:11:00.520 men who have such violent behaviors and such long systemic 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.600 belief systems around the value of women. 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.640 To your questions, both of you are really on the mark. 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.400 I would say, well, I wouldn't be doing this work, 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.600 and I wouldn't have been doing this work for twenty 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:13.720 five years if I didn't carry a deep hope within 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.720 me that men can change. These men can change high risk, 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:22.400 high harm men can change under the right constraints, under 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:26.520 the right context, under the right conditions. Now, whether we've 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:30.160 got that constraint, context, and conditions in place at the moment, 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.320 I'm not so sure about that. But if you're dealing 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.720 with a man who has these entrenched beliefs and behaviors, 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.000 if you're dealing with a man who's a serial abuser. 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.240 If you're dealing with a man who has a long history, 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:47.800 then obviously we need to go at this holistically. So 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.640 he's got to have an intervention that's going to deal 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.840 with his stopping of violence, stopping of abuse, stopping of 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.439 coercive control. That's long term work. It's not a quick fix. 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.880 It's not an easy solution. But he may have also, 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.920 and not in all cases, but he may have mental 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:08.080 health issues from potentially trauma that he's suffered in his life, 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.640 so he may need that trauma addressed. He may have 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.440 alcohol and drug issues that he's dealing with. He may 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:19.640 need that addressed. He may have employment, housing problems. He 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.440 may have a whole suite of problems which he needs 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.480 addressed in it with a whole suite of interventions. So 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.120 sticking a man in one program, let's say a men's 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:34.000 stopping violence program, I don't call a men's behavior change programs. 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.080 I don't like that terminology. Because you can change your 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.200 behavior of courts and police are looking at you, and 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:44.360 he might stop your overt physical abuse of your partner 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.440 or your ex partner. But that doesn't mean she's not terrified. Still, 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:52.440 she's not intimidated she's not living in fear because of 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.800 the emotional violence, the verbal violence, the psychological violence, the 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:59.800 coercive control can be very non physical that it can 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:04.959 be extremely terrifying, and it can still be his tyrannical 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.480 hold over her even without the physical So I don't 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:10.600 call them behavior change. I think we need to go 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.560 deeper than behavior. We need to be really delving into 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.079 that deep belief system. So it will need a long 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.199 term stopping violence program. You know, in Queensland they can 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:26.080 range from between twelve sixteen twenty twenty six weeks. Is 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:30.360 that long enough? I potentially don't believe, so I think 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.000 you know, And certainly in America there's forty weeks, there's 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.680 fifty two weeks, there's two year programs. So I would like, 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.280 if I had my way, and if I had my 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.920 power to change the system, I would love to see 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:46.560 a high risk, high harm men do stopping violence program, 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:51.960 do an abuse of Dad's program, do alcohol and drug interventions, 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.280 and also do mental health interventions too if needed. So 0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.679 when you add all those programs up, it may actually 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.280 take more than a year, and that's going to cost 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.040 a lot, and it's going to require skilled personnel who 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.680 can do that. I'm not sure about your neck of 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.600 the woods, but we have trouble at times being able 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.880 to staff men's intervention programs up here due to the 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.080 location where they may not be skilled staff to do that. 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.360 So there's lots of systemic barriers and blockages too that 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.520 need to be addressed. So again, long story short, Yes, 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.760 I believe these programs can be effective, but in and 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:34.040 of themselves less so they need to be part of 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:39.960 an integrated, coordinated community response to domestic violence and they're 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.880 a very important component of that. But they're not a 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.440 standalone They should never be a lone ranger program alone 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.200 ranger solution. That's asking too much of it. It's got 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:55.320 to be tied and tied tightly with other responses, other interventions, 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:59.400 other work from outside that space too. So you know, 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:02.239 program are good, but they also need to have individual 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:03.800 work with these men. I believe. 0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:07.200 It's hard not to feel and I think the world 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.440 right now off the back of Netflix, is feeling this 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.360 collective sense of helplessness and despair and how we're ever 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.359 going to change the system. And I think what adolescence 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:20.400 did really well is highlight the fact that this is 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.920 starting from childhood this is starting from adolescence and it's 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.080 coming from and this was a very conscious decision that 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.000 I really loved that they did. It came from a 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:33.040 really stable home with loving parents that had had a 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.320 marriage for twenty years. The dad was so respectful and 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.600 so hard working and loved his children and gave them 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:41.720 everything they needed. And this child ended up being a perpetrator. 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.080 How are we supposed to do? And I know there's 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.160 not an answer to this, but I don't have kids. 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.840 And I finished that series and I was petrified to 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:50.720 have a child. I was petrified to bring a child 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.960 into this world now when it highlights that teachers cannot 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.560 do anything at school anymore. And I read an article 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.800 this morning in Australia that was saying, with the likes 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:02.760 of the Andrew Tates and the Kanye West that are 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.640 coming out with social media, the prevalence of social media, 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.040 there are teachers saying I have never seen the disrespect, 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.520 like from twelve years old that I have in the 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:13.640 past couple of months. And they're like, we do not 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.840 know what to do. How are we supposed to stop 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:18.560 what is happening? I know we're supposed to say, well, 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.280 it's all in education. But if teachers are throwing their 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.400 hands up and saying I can't do anything because of 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.600 these external sources like social media, what the hell are 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.280 we supposed to do? And that's a bit of a 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:32.560 rhetorical question because nobody has the answer, or we wouldn't know. 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:34.480 But I feel like you've been in the industry for 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:38.520 twenty five years, we have actively been working so hard 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.000 towards trying to make change and trying to make a 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.760 safer world for women, trying to educate, and we have 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:44.560 gone backwards. 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:44.960 This year. 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.280 We have seen a high increase in domestic violence against 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:49.359 women than we ever have before. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:50.920 What are we supposed to do? 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:54.280 Again? The sixty four million dollar questions, isn't it? If 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:57.120 I may, can I give some thoughts that I've had 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:01.000 around this. Absolutely, there's been a pro to the federal 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:06.240 government to have age restrictions on access to pornography. We 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.040 don't have that. There are countries that do have that. 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.440 So you know, a nine can twelve year old boy 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:17.440 can access extreme violent porn and not can, but ah 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.720 and do, and so I think we have to have 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.640 restrictions there. There's women on Pornhub and other porn sites 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:29.960 that are trafficked, that are drugged, that are abused, that 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.720 are underage, and there's no check. You know, they say 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.400 they have checks, they say they have assessments, but they're 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.240 dealing with so much of this stuff and parents don't 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.760 take responsibility. I mean parents, as you say, from hard working, 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.880 long lasting relationships that seem stable on the outside. But 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.199 I think there are parents who just say, well, you know, 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.960 I can't stop screen time. It's just out of control. 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.000 If I stop it, he's going to she's going to 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.880 be very upset and their behavior is going to deteriorate. 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.040 So you know, it takes a concerted effort, right from 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.880 our federal government to state governments, to local governments. And 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:10.000 then I would love to see people doing parenting courses 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.680 and learning how to monitor and manage and I guess 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.399 rain screen time usin for young kids especially, And I 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.840 know that's a hard task. It's almost like the horse 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.399 has bolted. It's out there, it's gone. But you know, 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.040 I don't believe that we can just throw our hands 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.600 up and say, well, this is the world we live 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.439 in now, this is what kids are. They're innocence, childhood's 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:35.120 gone because of mobile phones and because of porn access. 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:36.879 I don't want to live in a world like that 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.600 because I don't think we've to tell you the truth. 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:41.199 I don't think we've seen the worst of it. I 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.520 don't think we've seen the full impact of how extreme 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:49.080 pornography usage for a young mind, how that affects well, 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:50.960 I think we're starting to see it, aren't we, how 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:55.719 that affects a boy's brain development into full adulthood. And 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:59.240 in terms of still coming from stable families. You're right, 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.680 Brick to a identify the peer group can be very, 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:07.280 very influential, especially at that early teenage time when boys 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.800 want to fit in, when boys don't want to be different, 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.960 when boys can be shamed because you know, he was 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:16.199 a thirteen year old boy who was mocked because he 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:21.040 was a virgin in that adolescent show. So I think, parents, really, 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:23.879 and it's highlighting we need to be having conversations with 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:29.080 our children about sex, about sexuality, about masculinity, about all 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.879 of that. Well before I mean, I know, when I 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.479 was a boy, it didn't happen. It didn't happen. I 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.600 remember coming home once and Mum, and to her credit, 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:43.879 she left some brochure on my bed. Yeah, and I 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:45.879 think I was about seventeen at the time. 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:48.440 You're like too late month, you know, Brian. We had 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.720 a situation. We spoke about it on the podcast last year. 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.440 It was I was away on holiday with my two 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.800 little girls and they were sitting next to me and 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.639 they were doing an activity on the phone. We're on 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.040 a boat at the time, going on like a day 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:03.840 snorkel or something, and they were on my phone doing 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:07.639 a coloring inactivity, and I could see that someone was 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:09.760 trying to air drop something to the phone. I just 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.000 I didn't even think I had air drop on and 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:13.480 there was a group of young boys they would have 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.080 been about nine years old, and I took the phone 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:17.800 off my three year old and I was like, what's 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:18.080 going on? 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:18.959 Who's air dropping? 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:21.439 I thought for a second my husband was air dropping 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.120 something to me, so I accepted it. And this little 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:26.399 boy sitting across from us, this group of them laughing 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.480 about it was sending hardcore porn to people on the boat. 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:32.440 And we went and approached the parents and we spoke 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:34.040 to them and said, you know, we told them what 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:36.720 was happening. Firstly, they got super defensive and were like, 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:38.399 how do you know it's my children doing that? 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:39.800 And I was like, well, look at them. 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.200 They're sitting there laughing and looking over to see who's 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.479 received the air drop. But it was the defensiveness and 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:50.640 the lack of accountability from that family that was truly shocking. 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:52.800 And the thing to me, I was like, and the 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:54.960 dad very much said, oh, you know, boys will be boys, 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.800 and I was like, you were creating boys who think 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.679 that this is normal, and they lent nature of the 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:05.040 pawn that they were air dropping to me was horrifying 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.399 that someone that young would have any exposure to it 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:11.119 or any understanding, let alone think it's funny. So I 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:13.359 really deeply understand what it is that you're saying. And 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:15.800 as much as as parents we don't want to think 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:20.360 that we could be producing or contributing this. There has 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.119 to be this deeper connection that we have with our 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:25.439 kids and knowing what it is that they're consuming and 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:27.960 who they are becoming. I do have a question for 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:30.919 you in terms of what has been reported recently. This 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:33.720