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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcotin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Ours. It's Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: the third of October.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara, I'm Sam.

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Speaker 2: Today we have another special interview from tda's editor, Billy

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Speaker 2: fitz Simon's. She's talking to the Foreign Minister Penny Wong

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Speaker 2: about everything from the Voice to the US election and

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Speaker 2: even world peace.

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Speaker 4: I want you to picture a twelve year old girl

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Speaker 4: coming up to you and she asks.

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Speaker 5: You it's my daughter.

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Speaker 2: Well, your daughter go to you.

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Speaker 4: And asking you is world peace ever possible? How would

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Speaker 4: you answer that.

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Speaker 2: We're going to go to that chat soon, but first

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Speaker 2: let's through the headlines. Victoria's new Premier, Justina Allen, has

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Speaker 2: announced a new cabinet. Allan's previous profile of Minister for

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Speaker 2: Transport Infrastructure was given to Danny Pearson and Deputy Premier

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Speaker 2: Ben Carroll, who last week challenged Alan for the leadership,

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Speaker 2: has been appointed Minister for Education and Medical Research. After

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Speaker 2: the ceremony, Alan said the team that has been sworn

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Speaker 2: in by the government is the team that I plan

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Speaker 2: to lead in the twenty twenty sixth election.

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Speaker 3: Six people, including four children, have been killed in the

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Speaker 3: deadliest car crash in the Northern Territory in sixteen years

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Speaker 3: at a major highway near Pine Creek. The car collided

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Speaker 3: with a road train which was carrying a large amount

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Speaker 3: of fuel, causing both vehicles to catch fire. Police Commissioner

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Speaker 3: Michael Murphy said officials were looking at fatigue, distraction and

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Speaker 3: alcohol as contributing factors.

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Speaker 2: Over five thousand hectares have been burnt and at least

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Speaker 2: one house has been destroyed by bushfires in Victoria's Gippsland region.

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Speaker 2: Country Fire off Authority Chief Jason Heffernan told the ABC

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Speaker 2: that what we saw in Gippsland is probably a taste

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Speaker 2: of what is to come during summer. He urged all

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Speaker 2: regional residents in the state to prepare a bushfire survival plan.

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Speaker 2: Total firebands were in place in four Australian states yesterday.

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Speaker 3: And today's good news. A baby beaver has been born

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Speaker 3: in London for the first time since it was hunted

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Speaker 3: to extinction four hundred years ago. A reintroduction program was

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Speaker 3: started in twenty twenty two to help with flood management

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Speaker 3: across the city. The local council said this truly is

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Speaker 3: wonderful news. The beaver's hard work creating a natural wetland

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Speaker 3: ecosystem will contribute to excellent flood defenses, protecting the local

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Speaker 3: area and hundreds of homes from flooding downstream to the

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Speaker 3: southeast of the borough, while encouraging local biodiversity to thrive.

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Speaker 3: Glad I got through the whole thing.

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Speaker 4: Pennywong, thank you so much for joining the Daily Os.

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Speaker 5: It's great to be here.

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Speaker 4: You are, of course the Foreign Minister. There are so

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Speaker 4: much that your portfolio covers. Can you start by just

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Speaker 4: painting us a picture?

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Speaker 1: What is your role?

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Speaker 5: That's a good question. I think the role of the

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Speaker 5: Foreign Minister is to simply explain Australia to the world

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Speaker 5: and explain the world to Australia. And my job with

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Speaker 5: people work with me is to help manage Australia's relationship

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Speaker 5: with other countries. With our region and the world, and

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Speaker 5: to have an understanding of how we press for Australia's

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Speaker 5: national interest, that is, the things we want and who

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Speaker 5: we are in the world.

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Speaker 4: I want to start with Julia Sange. This month Australian

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Speaker 4: politicians from across the ale travel to the US to

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Speaker 4: campaign for his freedom. You've said the case has dragged

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Speaker 4: on for too long. Why is it taking so long

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Speaker 4: to get Assange home?

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Speaker 5: Well, the Australian government can't change the legal proceedings in

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Speaker 5: another country, just as we wouldn't want or we wouldn't

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Speaker 5: allow another country to change legal proceedings in our country.

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Speaker 5: So ultimately, if there's a way through this, that has

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Speaker 5: to be something the US government and the US Justice

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Speaker 5: Department decide, and mister science has to be part of that.

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Speaker 4: But you can negotiate with that, right.

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Speaker 5: No, it's not a political decision. We can do what

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Speaker 5: we've done, which is we have said publicly and privately

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Speaker 5: we think it has gone on too long.

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Speaker 4: Are you not pushing harder to bring a sanch home

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Speaker 4: because you're worried about how it could impact the US

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Speaker 4: Australia relationship.

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Speaker 5: No, No, And I think if things were as easy

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Speaker 5: as just a discussion between politicians, you know, then something

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Speaker 5: might have happened, but they're not on.

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Speaker 4: The topic of the US's looking likely that the election

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Speaker 4: next year will be between Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

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Speaker 4: How do you think your government would work with a

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Speaker 4: Trump administration.

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Speaker 5: Well, look, we have a relationship between two countries, and

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Speaker 5: our relationship with the United States has seen lots of

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Speaker 5: different presidents, but ultimately it's a bigger relationship than any

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Speaker 5: one individual.

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Speaker 4: The last time Donald Trump won power, you were in

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Speaker 4: opposition and you said at the time that Australia should

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Speaker 4: essentially put less focus on its relationship with the US

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Speaker 4: and focus more of its attention on Asia. Will that

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Speaker 4: be your viewpoint if Trump is elected next year?

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Speaker 5: So we have the US alliance, but I have spent

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Speaker 5: most of my time since I've become Foreign Minister in

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Speaker 5: Southeast Asia and the Pacific because that is our neighborhood,

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Speaker 5: that is our region, and we have to have deep

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Speaker 5: resilient relationships in our region in a world that's increasingly

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Speaker 5: more challenging and we we're all trying to deal with

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Speaker 5: a whole range of really big and difficult issues.

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Speaker 4: So last time Donald Trump was elected, you said that

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Speaker 4: Australia should be able to change. Point. Do you not

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Speaker 4: think that that would be that would happen this time

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Speaker 4: if Trump was elected.

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Speaker 5: Well, I always think it's a bit difficult to look

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Speaker 5: into the future. But the point I was making when

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Speaker 5: I said that is that there were a different policy

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Speaker 5: approach and a whole range of issues and we had

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Speaker 5: to be realistic about that.

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Speaker 4: You just said that the world is facing increasingly challenging times,

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Speaker 4: and I've heard you say that Australia is currently facing

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Speaker 4: some of the most challenging strategic circumstances since the end

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Speaker 4: of World War Two.

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Speaker 5: Well, I say that, Yeah, that good question. Am I

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Speaker 5: allowed to just give sixty thirty seconds of history. So

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Speaker 5: we had the worst complete humanity I'd ever seen, which

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Speaker 5: was World War Two, and the war came together and

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Speaker 5: the world said, we never want that to happen again.

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Speaker 5: So the world established the United Nations, the UN Charter,

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Speaker 5: and what World War II confirm was the US as

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Speaker 5: the predominant economic and military power. And that scenario, I'm

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Speaker 5: not saying it's all been plain sailing, but it's a

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Speaker 5: meant a lot of stability in the world since the

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Speaker 5: end of World War Two. Well, we face a pretty

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Speaker 5: different world now. We've got what we call strategic competition,

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Speaker 5: so competition between the US and China. We have climate change,

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Speaker 5: we have the undermining of the UN Charter, for example

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Speaker 5: with the invasion of Ukraine. So we're in a world

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Speaker 5: where we have to make our way in much more

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Speaker 5: difficult circumstances than we have had at probably any time

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Speaker 5: since the end of World War Two.

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Speaker 4: By using that kind of language, how do you then

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Speaker 4: reassure Australians that we're not on the brink of a

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Speaker 4: really big conflict.

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Speaker 5: I don't ever try to make people frightened, but I

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Speaker 5: also think in the roles that we have now to

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Speaker 5: make sure we give people an understanding of the world

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Speaker 5: in which we live and explain the choices we're making

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Speaker 5: in that world.

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Speaker 4: But to be clear, that doesn't mean that you think

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Speaker 4: we're on the brink of any conflict of that size.

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Speaker 5: I think I think that we always have to work

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Speaker 5: to a sure peace. I think every nation pretty much

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Speaker 5: is saying we want peace, except for you. I mean,

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Speaker 5: I think Russia's at warrior with Ukraine? Is it? North

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Speaker 5: Korea is continuing to test in a pretty provocative manner

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Speaker 5: of nuclear weapons, but I think most people around the world,

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Speaker 5: wouldn't you say, want peace?

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Speaker 4: I think you would know better than me.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I mean, I think this is why we've got

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Speaker 5: to push back on what's happened in Ukraine.

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Speaker 4: In February, you delivered a speech in London where you

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Speaker 4: spoke about Britain acknowledging its colonial past. Do you think

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Speaker 4: Australia has confronted its past.

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Speaker 5: That's a good question, and I think part of what

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Speaker 5: we have done over the last twenty years is taken

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Speaker 5: steps to acknowledging that. And I was part of a

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Speaker 5: government led by Kevin Rudd who apologized to the Stolen Generation.

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Speaker 5: I remember how how hard many people fought against that,

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Speaker 5: but it was an important step for us about looking

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Speaker 5: into the past and recognizing what had happened. So, yes,

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Speaker 5: this is an ongoing project. I don't think of it

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Speaker 5: like there's you sort of cross a line, like you're

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Speaker 5: running a race across a finish line. I think it's

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Speaker 5: a path, isn't It's a journey. We walk together. So

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Speaker 5: we've got a long way to go, but we're coming

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Speaker 5: a long way and part of what we are doing

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Speaker 5: with the Voice is to keep walking together.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk about the voice. If the referendum is not successful,

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Speaker 4: how do you think Australia will be perceived on the

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Speaker 4: global stage.

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Speaker 5: Well, really, I'm campaigning to win and if it's not

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Speaker 5: you see, Look, we are not the only that is

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Speaker 5: on this journey. Lots of other countries are in the

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Speaker 5: process of or are walking the same journey or similar

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Speaker 5: journey with their first first peoples. It's something many countries,

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Speaker 5: a number of countries are doing and I think if

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Speaker 5: we are successful, I think we have a lot to

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Speaker 5: gain are being more united.

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Speaker 4: The question that was about if it's not successful, but

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Speaker 4: are you not ready to think about.

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Speaker 5: Well I'm not ready to talk to you about that, noted,

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Speaker 5: but don't take it personally.

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Speaker 4: I will. Now you're at the forefront of the marriage

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Speaker 4: equality campaign where a few weeks out from when Australia

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Speaker 4: is going to vote in the referendum. How are you

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Speaker 4: feeling now compared to how you felt a few weeks

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Speaker 4: out from the marriage equality vote.

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Speaker 5: Look, I think this is harder in many ways.

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Speaker 4: Way because.

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Speaker 5: People of your generation on marriage equality, the questions went

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Speaker 5: from we really need to do this to why haven't

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Speaker 5: you people done this? I think on First nations issues

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Speaker 5: We've got more conversations to have and more understanding to

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Speaker 5: develop within our community about our history, about the experience

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Speaker 5: of First Nations people, and what we have to do.

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Speaker 4: If you're saying, though, that there's still so much that

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Speaker 4: Australians need to learn, does that mean that you are

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Speaker 4: feeling less optimistic about this referendum than you were about

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Speaker 4: the marriage equality vote.

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Speaker 5: Oh we had to learn that too. I just think

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Speaker 5: that younger Australian's got there pretty.

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Speaker 4: Fast, and they're not this very well.

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Speaker 5: I think they are now. I hope we win, and

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Speaker 5: I believe we can.

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Speaker 4: I want to end on this note. In your role

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Speaker 4: as Foreign minister, you get to see and know things

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Speaker 4: about the world that we never will. I want you

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Speaker 4: to picture a twelve year old girl coming up to

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Speaker 4: you and she asks you.

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Speaker 5: It's my daughter.

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Speaker 4: Well your daughter, you go to you and asking you

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Speaker 4: world peace ever possible? How would you answer that?

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Speaker 5: Yes? But we have to work for it.

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Speaker 4: So you do see a future where there is world peace.

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Speaker 5: I think human beings can always choose our future. I'm

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Speaker 5: not one that believes that there's some sort of determined outcome,

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Speaker 5: but you have to work for it, and that's what

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Speaker 5: I want to do and it's a great privilege of

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Speaker 5: this job is I get the opportion to do that.

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Speaker 4: Pennywang, thank you so much for joining the Daily OS.

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Speaker 4: We really appreciate it good to speak with you.

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Speaker 3: Thanks to our Foreign Minister Pennywong for dropping by the

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Speaker 3: office and sitting down with Billy. If you have any

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Speaker 3: other high profile politicians you'd like us to chat to,

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Speaker 3: we'd love to have some names nominated and we'll do

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Speaker 3: our best to chase them up for you. We'll be

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Speaker 3: back again in your ears tomorrow. Until then, have a

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Speaker 3: great day.