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Speaker 1: Now, the Northern Territory government has established a Select Committee

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Speaker 1: which is conducting an inquiry into vaping. It follows a

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Speaker 1: rise in school children taking up the habit. Now, I

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Speaker 1: think if you're a parent of a child that's you know,

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Speaker 1: either at middle school or high school or maybe even

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Speaker 1: before that age group, you will be acutely aware that

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Speaker 1: this is an issue around the Northern Territory. Now, representatives

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Speaker 1: from the Education and Health Department took part in a

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Speaker 1: public briefing on Monday giving the committee an overview of

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Speaker 1: those issues, and the chair of the committee, Brent Potter,

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Speaker 1: joins me in the studio right now, Good morning to your.

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Speaker 2: Brent morning, Katie morning listeners.

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Speaker 1: Now, Brent, I guess you know for you you and

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Speaker 1: O I wear both parents, so we sort of know

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Speaker 1: that this is an issue amongst our school students. Says

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Speaker 1: no doubt about it. But why has the government launched

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Speaker 1: this inquiry?

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Speaker 3: It's a huge issue and I think every time I

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Speaker 3: knock a door there is a parent that says, you know,

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Speaker 3: what are we doing about vaping? And so therefore we

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Speaker 3: put a select committee to address it. I mean I

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Speaker 3: didn't know, I don't know enough about it and It's

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Speaker 3: been a really good learning experience going through this, and

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Speaker 3: we're going to learn a lot more as we go.

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Speaker 3: We're going to understand what is fact and fiction, and

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Speaker 3: the Select Committee will come with some recommendations to Parliament

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Speaker 3: in October because so often.

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Speaker 1: Here, you know, young people go oh, but it doesn't

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Speaker 1: have this in it, or it doesn't have that in it.

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Speaker 4: It's okay, You're like, you don't know what's in it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I can sell you.

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Speaker 3: The one misconception that people have is that that they

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Speaker 3: get told this one has nicotine, this one doesn't. And

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Speaker 3: what we found out even from the Department of Health

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Speaker 3: coming before the committee last week, is some products will

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Speaker 3: have nicotine, they don't advertise it, and then prior to

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty, you could get nicotine separately and insert it

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Speaker 3: into your flavoring. So they're still that kicking through the community.

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Speaker 3: So you just don't know what's in I think that

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Speaker 3: other jurisdictions New Zealand and like of demonstrated that you

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Speaker 3: need to have some regulation around packaging if you are

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Speaker 3: going to go down that path of making it accessible.

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Speaker 4: So what is the scope of the inquiry.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, we've got five areas of the scope, so

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Speaker 3: scale and trends for and including young people and children?

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Speaker 3: What do we think the health impacts? And I think

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Speaker 3: the jury is still out on that. You know, we

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Speaker 3: don't have long term data to demonstrate like we do

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Speaker 3: with smoking. We have official efficacy for helping those that

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Speaker 3: are quitting from tobacco products, and there are a lot

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Speaker 3: of people that make that argument. We have approaches to

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Speaker 3: discouraging the uptake of it, particularly in our schools and

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Speaker 3: younger people.

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Speaker 2: And then we want to understand what the best practices

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Speaker 2: are nationally.

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Speaker 1: And so is this inquiry specifically focused on children or

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Speaker 1: adults choosing vapes going to like?

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Speaker 4: Is that going to be looked at as well?

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Speaker 3: Listen, it has got a strong focus on our youth

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Speaker 3: because that is the big issue we see at the moment.

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Speaker 3: But by virtue of going through all five of those

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Speaker 3: terms of reference, we're going to go through health impacts

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Speaker 3: and adults and trends and you know, the transition between

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Speaker 3: tobacco to vaping. So it will be all encompassing. As

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Speaker 3: I said the other day, I don't think I will

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Speaker 3: have enough time to get everything done. It's you know,

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Speaker 3: you just you pull that string apart and your and

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Speaker 3: it just keeps coming.

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Speaker 1: And so I guess from your perspective as the chair,

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Speaker 1: you know, while there are some concerns about people vaping

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Speaker 1: right across the board, the main scope here is realistically

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Speaker 1: for young people that are vaping and the impact that

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Speaker 1: it's having on our young people.

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Speaker 3: If personally as a chair, it's young people. But I

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Speaker 3: really want to understand what we need to do around

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Speaker 3: the packaging and the regulation piece, because I think if

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Speaker 3: you get that right, you'll discourage the younger people taking

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Speaker 3: up the product. Because I don't think we're going to

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Speaker 3: get a definitive outcome on the health impacts. We can

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Speaker 3: go with sort of anecdotal data like we can get

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Speaker 3: that now, but to get the definitive I think that's

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Speaker 3: not going to happen before October. So they're the two

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Speaker 3: I'm very focused on.

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Speaker 1: So should adults doing the right thing now be concerned

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Speaker 1: that the inquiry could make it harder for them to

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Speaker 1: actually access nicotine vapes?

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Speaker 3: Like I said to a few people that are concerned,

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Speaker 3: going in eyes completely open, I listen to both sides

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Speaker 3: of the fence on the argument. I don't want to

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Speaker 3: take anyone civil liberties away around the product. But what

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Speaker 3: I also don't want to do is like they did

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Speaker 3: back in the fifties where doctors were prescribing tobacco believing

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Speaker 3: it to be the great product and panacea for anxiety,

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Speaker 3: and now we've got all these health problems later on.

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Speaker 3: I don't personally want to be accountable for that, you know, Like,

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Speaker 3: that's not where I want to end up with the

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Speaker 3: committee report. So we'll go in eyes what open, take

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Speaker 3: both arguments to it, but take a really considered approch

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Speaker 3: h because it isn't.

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Speaker 1: Like it's an interesting one in the scenes that there

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Speaker 1: are at some adults that vape and see it as

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Speaker 1: being a bitter you know, a better alternative for them

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Speaker 1: than smoking everyday cigarettes, so cheaper alternative for them, and

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Speaker 1: maybe even a way for them.

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Speaker 4: To get off the cigarettes.

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Speaker 1: But then on the other hand, you've got this real

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Speaker 1: issue now with young people who just do not see

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Speaker 1: it as being dangerous in any way, shape or form.

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Speaker 3: No, exactly right, And I think this is where we've

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Speaker 3: landed on this and why we're doing it, because there

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Speaker 3: are people that swear by it and say that has

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Speaker 3: helped them transition from smoking. And I know people like that,

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Speaker 3: and actually yesterday when I was door knocking, a young

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Speaker 3: lady walk by me and I noticed the vaporizer in

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Speaker 3: my stuff, and he goes, don't do it? But I asked,

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Speaker 3: and I said, can I ask you a couple of questions?

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Speaker 3: And I said to her, you had you smoke before?

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Speaker 3: And she said yes, I had. And I said, do

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Speaker 3: you still smoke now, which is what they call duel use,

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Speaker 3: where you're vaping and smoking. She says, no, I don't.

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Speaker 3: And I said to her, do you think you were

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Speaker 3: to transition from tobacco with that? And she said no,

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Speaker 3: I don't. Now that's one individual, but you can see

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Speaker 3: it throughout the community, and it's an issue.

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Speaker 2: We've got to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: So tell me about some of the key takeaways as

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Speaker 1: well from the Education and the Health department briefing that

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Speaker 1: you had earlier in the week.

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Speaker 3: So the Department of Education, mine was a pretty straight

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Speaker 3: It was pretty straightforward. They're treating it like any illicit

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Speaker 3: substance in the schools. They said they've seen an increase

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Speaker 3: in the schools of it, and that comes down the

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Speaker 3: way this is marketed like it is absolutely marketed at

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Speaker 3: young people. You know, you can't deny that the way

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Speaker 3: that we're doing flavorings, the colorings of the systems, the

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Speaker 3: way all of it is marketed for young people. They

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Speaker 3: treat it the same as illicit drugs. They are having

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Speaker 3: issues in the toilets and you know, when I was

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Speaker 3: at school, kids were smoking in the toilets, you know,

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Speaker 3: and it's always been an issue. They're looking at alternative

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Speaker 3: methods around vape detectors like you have smoke detectors, but

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Speaker 3: they're quite expensive. I know Darwin Hei has been looking

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Speaker 3: at that as a school board previously, and there's other

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Speaker 3: schools I've spoke in the same thing. They're looking at

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Speaker 3: around how you can detect it. That was what they

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Speaker 3: were more concerned. I've treated it the same and then

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Speaker 3: I work with Department of Health around the health impacts.

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Speaker 3: And then Department of Health was really the bigger sort

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Speaker 3: of department that came in and gave us a better understanding.

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Speaker 3: And I think for your listeners they need to understand

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Speaker 3: you can't in Australia pre twenty twenty, like I said,

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Speaker 3: you get nicotine and you could insert it into the

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Speaker 3: flavoring yourself, but as of October twenty twenty one, you

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Speaker 3: need a doctor's prescription and then to your pharmacist to

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Speaker 3: get nicotine infuse vaporizes. So I didn't quite understand how

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Speaker 3: that was playing out. I also didn't understand the health

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Speaker 3: impacts that nicotine purely on young people has, you know,

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Speaker 3: an increase an anxiety and depression on young adults. We

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Speaker 3: have a problem post COVID with anxiety and depression throughout

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Speaker 3: our community. We don't want to be exacerbating that anymore.

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Speaker 1: So the thing is though, with our young people. Even

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Speaker 1: though you know, even though it is harder to access

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Speaker 1: that nicotine, kids are still getting their hands on the

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Speaker 1: vapes and we actually don't know exactly what is in

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Speaker 1: those vapes as it is, or the damage that it

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Speaker 1: could be doing to their bodies.

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Speaker 3: Luarly, and you can get it from international so you

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Speaker 3: can order it through Amazon and eBay. And at the

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Speaker 3: moment it's illegal to import the nicotine part through the

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Speaker 3: Australian federal government, but the non nicotine vaporizers can still

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Speaker 3: make their way in. I mean, like anything, is difficult

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Speaker 3: for them to police and identify what's a non nicotine

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Speaker 3: and what is a nicotine because there's no packaging. We

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Speaker 3: don't have any regulation around packaging.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is the really difficult part. So from

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Speaker 1: what you've been told obviously from education, there is an

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Speaker 1: increase in the number of kids that are that are

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Speaker 1: vaping at school. Tell me, though, did the health Department

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Speaker 1: indicate that children could be using vapes that do contain nicotine?

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Speaker 3: That's what they're saying that you know, well, there's no

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Speaker 3: data to confirm or deny, But what they're saying is

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Speaker 3: when you don't know what's in the product and they

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Speaker 3: don't label it, and when they've done random testing on

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Speaker 3: some previously across other jurisdictions, they found nicotine in the products,

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Speaker 3: but other hard metals that they weren't aware of. So

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Speaker 3: when you're talking about heating and heating, you're talking about

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Speaker 3: heating a mental element and then putting a fluid over

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Speaker 3: the top of it, which we don't know what happens

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Speaker 3: at that temperature to that product. So there's just not

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Speaker 3: enough understanding of the materials and the substances going into

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Speaker 3: the fluid.

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Speaker 1: Look anecdotally as well, I guess from my perspective, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm being told that kids as young and as.

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Speaker 4: Ten and eleven are vaping.

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Speaker 1: You know, from what you've heard from the Education Department.

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Speaker 1: So far are you hearing similar or you know, what

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Speaker 1: do you guys being told the ages?

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Speaker 3: He did say it's primarily middle and high school, but

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Speaker 3: I mean, like anything, I wouldn't be surprised that there

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Speaker 3: are kids that age getting access to it. And same

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Speaker 3: with smoking. You know, we see that as a big

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Speaker 3: issue throughout the territory.

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Speaker 1: So talk me through how just with the nicotine potentially

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Speaker 1: being in some of those vapes that the kids are

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Speaker 1: getting their hands on, how is it possible given the

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Speaker 1: fact that the federal government have got these regulations around

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Speaker 1: nicotine vaping products.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's like anything.

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Speaker 3: You can go on eBay and you can buy an

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Speaker 3: item and get it sent to you, and it's just

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Speaker 3: running the gaulet through customs and border force in some aspects, but.

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Speaker 2: A lot of it's made overseas in China.

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Speaker 3: The US has a regulation around what they've regulated their product,

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Speaker 3: around packaging and how they're made in the standard, so

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Speaker 3: you know, if you're getting one made for the US,

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Speaker 3: as I found out, it's regulated to their stand and

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Speaker 3: not necessarily ours. And as some people would know, our

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Speaker 3: gym supplements compared to the US regulations are very different.

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Speaker 3: And what we can and can't have in it, and

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Speaker 3: people have been caught out before there. So this is

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Speaker 3: why it's so important to look at how we're going

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Speaker 3: to regulate if we go down that path around what's

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Speaker 3: inside and the plane packaging and the packaging requirements.

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Speaker 1: So what's the process now? Is there going to be

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Speaker 1: public hearings?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So we've asked u submissions public submission. They'll close

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Speaker 3: on the twenty sixth of May, and they've written public

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Speaker 3: submissions and i'd encourage everyone that has a vested interest

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Speaker 3: in this to put one in.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: We've gone to all the schools as well all the departments,

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Speaker 3: and we've got a lift to sort of peak bodies

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Speaker 3: that we've engaged with, and then we'll do a bunch

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Speaker 3: of public hearings that we'll invite people to come and

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Speaker 3: speak to as depending on those submissions, we're looking at

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Speaker 3: potentially traveling down to canber because a lot of the

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Speaker 3: head officers for the organizations that we need to talk

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Speaker 3: to are in Canberra.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: There was a committee, a parliamentary committee done on this

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty. We can go and talk to them

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Speaker 3: about their reports and sort of get a better understanding

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Speaker 3: of where they landed. The best bit about this from

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Speaker 3: my perspective is a lot of work's been done from

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Speaker 3: other jurisdictions that I can draw on, So I'm not.

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Speaker 2: Starting from a clean slate. I've draw a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: It just means a lot of reading, which is great,

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Speaker 3: and then from there we can target who we bring

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Speaker 3: before the committee.

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Speaker 1: Now, if there are people that do want to make

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Speaker 1: a submission, is there a way that they.

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Speaker 4: Can do that?

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Speaker 3: Yes, if they go to the anti gunment were if

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Speaker 3: you just type in NT select Committee e Cigarettes, it'll

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Speaker 3: come up with all the details. Or you can just

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Speaker 3: go on my website on my Facebook and it's there

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Speaker 3: as well for people to get ahold of.

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Speaker 1: I know it's very early days and obviously we've got

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Speaker 1: to go through the whole process. But where do you

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Speaker 1: envisage that this could end up? I mean, could we

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Speaker 1: wind up in a situation where we're vaping span in

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Speaker 1: the Northern Territory. I mean where do you think we

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Speaker 1: could wind up here?

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Speaker 3: Listen, I think at the moment, just server I understands

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Speaker 3: to to purchase it you need it, or to stock

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Speaker 3: it and say that you need to have an NT

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Speaker 3: license like an tobacco outlet, you need to be eighteen

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Speaker 3: to go to, say, the vapor store, vapor vapor store

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Speaker 3: in prep But where one quote that has resonated me

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Speaker 3: from the Federal government's inquiry was from the Threatic Society

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Speaker 3: of Australia and the Lung Foundation, and I'll quote it.

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Speaker 3: If there is a suspected risk of harm and scientific

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Speaker 3: information is lacking such that there is an absence of

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Speaker 3: scientific consensus, the burden of proof falls to the person

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Speaker 3: wanting to progress the issue. And so my point is

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Speaker 3: that when I don't know enough of the data, I

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Speaker 3: should be taking a precautionary approach to the harmonimization. And

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Speaker 3: that's what we don't the currently You're having to be

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Speaker 3: eighteen to access it, so that the question is how

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Speaker 3: do I stop it getting into the hands of young kids.

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Speaker 3: And so that's the approach I'm sort of taking with

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Speaker 3: a family of four. You know, I don't want them

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Speaker 3: to start taking using vaporizers when they've never been on tobacco.

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Speaker 1: Before, and I reckon the really hard thing is is

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Speaker 1: it is a real educative approach as well for young people,

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Speaker 1: like having that discussion with the kids about the harm

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Speaker 1: that it can do to your body. But when a

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Speaker 1: lot of that's largely unknown at this point in time,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it is very much like I've got

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Speaker 1: friends who are nurses, family members who are nurses who

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Speaker 1: are saying to me, it's not good for them. No

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Speaker 1: matter what, it's not going to be good for them.

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Speaker 1: So you're sort of passing that message on. But it

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Speaker 1: would be good to actually have factual knowledge to be

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Speaker 1: able to educate kids.

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Speaker 3: And in the absence of that, you know, you want

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Speaker 3: to take a precautionary approach for people that are smoke

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Speaker 3: as I completely understand why they would transition to it

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Speaker 3: to get off the smokes as an alternative. Where it

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Speaker 3: does genuinely concern me is people that are dual use,

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Speaker 3: so that will continue to do tobacco and vaporizers. And

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Speaker 3: the other one I'm concerned with is those that have

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Speaker 3: never smoked tobacco before in their life or a tobacco

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Speaker 3: product going from a vaporizer under the cigarettes. You know,

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Speaker 3: So if it is purely used as a transition, I

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Speaker 3: think that's a really safe place to be in. But

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Speaker 3: if it's bringing people as a gateway, as the partner

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Speaker 3: Health said, onto other substances and that's a concern.

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Speaker 1: Hey, before I let you go, I understand this morning, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: there's been some pretty horrendous sort of hate crime or

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Speaker 1: hate spray painted messages in your electro this morning.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got a consider constituent walking their dog that

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Speaker 3: just said some individual's gone and spray painted some letterboxes,

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Speaker 3: which can only be described as hate crime in writing,

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Speaker 3: which is just disgusting and abhorrent to be honest, and

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to give that person time a day.

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Speaker 3: So we've gone out and sprayed it and it's gone now.

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Speaker 3: But for those that did see it, I do apologize

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Speaker 3: that your kids may have had to see it on

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Speaker 3: the way to school, and I hope we get that

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Speaker 3: individual that did it.

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Speaker 4: So you sorted it out yourself.

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Speaker 3: Well, I came into you. But the stut my staff member,

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Speaker 3: we went out this morning. He's gone and got spray painting,

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Speaker 3: spray painted, and then the body corporate's going to go

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Speaker 3: and paint the wall in the right color. So it's

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Speaker 3: gone and it's on the fe it's been removed.

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Speaker 4: Good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, good to hear well, Brent Potter. We've got your

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Speaker 1: back in tomorrow morning as well. For the week that was.

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Speaker 2: I think I.

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Speaker 3: Feel like I do one day every time before week

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Speaker 3: there was, and then you get me.

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Speaker 4: For a week that was excellent. We're all right with that, mate.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: We'll catch up with you tomorrow