WEBVTT - Why thousands are protesting in New Zealand 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:04.400 Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:15.800 Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:18.360 the Daily OS. It's Wednesday, the twentieth of November. 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:19.800 I'm Lucy, I'm Zara. 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.040 You probably saw this video last week of a young 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:34.960 woman leading a harker in New Zealand's Parliament. Yesterday, thousands 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.080 of people gathered outside New Zealand's Parliament to protest the 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:40.480 same thing as that young woman who's actually an MP. 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:43.360 Her name's Hannah Raffitimip Clark. 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.040 That's a bill that would change the legal interpretation of 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:51.640 New Zealand's founding treaty. It's not just unpopular with thousands 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:56.160 of people, minor parties and the opposition, it also doesn't 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:58.800 have the support of Prime Minister Christopher Luxen. 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.559 This is such a complex story and as you said, 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.440 you know, I think it really gained international attention, especially 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.720 here in Australia when we saw that hakka in New 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:18.040 Zealand's Parliament. But it's a really important story and it's 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:20.400 one with a lot of layers. So I guess, Lucy, 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:23.639 where do we begin with it? How do we start 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:24.760 to tell this story? 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:27.480 We have to start in the year eighteen forty. 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:29.199 Okay, going way back then. 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:33.080 Going way back before we can kind of explain what 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.040 the bill is trying to change, we have to explain 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.920 what the status quo is. So going back to eighteen forty, 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:44.960 English officials and over five hundred Mari leaders signed Tatti 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.840 or Waitangi or the Treaty of Waitangi. Mari leaders signed 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.960 a Mari version of the treaty and English representatives signed 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:57.080 the English version. It was the English officials belief that 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.800 the treaty meant that the Marii had agreed to seed 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:05.240 sovereignty complete control over New Zealand to the British crown. 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:09.080 Marti leaders were not told that this was what the 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.680 English version of the treaty said. They were led to 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:16.679 believe they had given the English the right to make laws, 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:21.120 not to take over. This obviously led to decades of 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:25.320 conflict as the two conflicting interpretations, or rather the two 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:29.960 conflicting kind of versions of the treaty were carried out 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:33.400 in day to day life. Also important to note that 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:37.040 not every Marti leader in New Zealand signed the treaty 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.640 at the time, but the English decided it still applied 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:41.079 to them. 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.880 Okay, So we're talking about a treaty that was signed 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:49.240 in eighteen forty, and one central issue that emerged with 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.560 it was interpretation, or as you said, perhaps even just 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:57.639 understanding of what that treaty meant around certainly whether there 0:02:57.760 --> 0:03:01.200 was full sovereignty seated or whether it was about making laws. 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:03.440 What else was in this treaty that now. 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:04.760 Gets to the heart of why there are so many 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:06.360 protests across New Zealand. 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:09.079 I'll go off the English language version of the treaty 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.440 because that is really, you know, what was used by 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:17.280 the settler government. It has three agreements. The first agreement 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.760 I've covered, and that's that in the English version, MARII 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:25.200 ceded sovereignty of New Zealand to the British Crown. The second, 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.480 and this one is really really important, is that if 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.519 Mary wanted to sell any of their land, they only 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:35.080 sold it to the English and in exchange they were 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:39.240 meant to have quote the full, exclusive and undisturbed possession 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:43.520 of their lands, forests and fisheries. So imagine that part 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.560 is bolded and underlined so that it's very very important. 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.120 And the third agreement was that Mary were to have 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:53.200 quote all the rights and privileges of British subjects. All 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:55.920 of these agreements have had really far reaching consequences. 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:00.080 So the first agreement was around sovereignty, the second it 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:02.680 was around the selling of land. 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:06.000 And then the kind of exclusive and undisturbed possession of. 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.600 That land, okay. And then the third was around the 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:10.400 rights of the Maori people. 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:11.040 Is that correct? 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:11.440 Yes? 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:12.160 Okay? 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.600 And so we've said that this was signed, you know, 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.400 decades and decades and decades ago. How is the treaty 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.480 affecting modern day New Zealand life? Just bringing it now 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:22.719 back into the present. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.880 Following decades of both violent and peaceful conflicts between Marii 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.320 ewi that's the word that means communities and the British Crown. 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.360 In nineteen seventy five, the New Zealand government set up 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.520 the White Tangi Tribunal to investigate allegations that the Treaty 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.760 wasn't being upheld. The tribunal has considered allegations about the 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.640 government's actions going all the way back to when the 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.400 treaty itself was signed in eighteen forty to the present, 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:54.839 including allegations of stealing land and polluting waterways. In a 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:58.560 landmark decision in twenty fourteen, the Tribunal found that one 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:02.080 EWI did not seed sovereignty when they signed the treaty. 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.400 The most important thing about the Tribunal to think about 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.640 today is that one of its responsibilities was to interpret 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:13.000 what the treaty agreements actually meant. This is something called 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:17.120 the principles of the Treaty. These principles have been established 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:21.440 over years of tribunal cases and expert opinion, and they 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:25.400 are now referred to, but not necessarily defined, in New 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.799 Zealand laws. I think a good way to think about 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:31.680 this for an Australian listening to this is that so 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.280 Australians don't have a legal right to freedom of speech 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:41.279 in our constitution, but across multiple High Court cases, judges 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:45.600 have found that the Constitution implies a right to political 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:49.840 expression because we live in a democracy. This basically means 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.680 you can't be stopped from saying something if a politician 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.279 doesn't want you to say it, and this has governed 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.680 a lot of legal cases. But it's not an official 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.440 law or in our constitution that we have a quote 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.960 freedom of speech like they do in the US. Now 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.039 back to why we're talking about this story today. One 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.040 New Zealand party wants to put a version of these 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:16.120 principles that have been established over decades into law. 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.560 Okay, And why does someone want to do or why 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:21.359 does a party want to be doing that, what's the 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:22.640 justification for doing that? 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.159 So the party in question is called Act, led by 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.760 David Seymour, and it says the Treaty principles have been 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:34.520 quote gradually built up over time, which they say means 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:39.200 the New Zealand public has never been democratically consulted on them. 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:43.520 They say, quote the Treaty principles are often mentioned in legislation, 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.720 but they have never actually been defined in law. And 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:51.520 for something that can govern land decisions and decisions made 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.640 about a group of people in New Zealand, they're saying, 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.680 this is something that needs to be legally defined, okay. 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:02.120 A bill introduced by Act would legally define what the 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:07.279 Treaty principles are and what the treaty means. This includes 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:10.240 establishing a new legal definition of that thing that I 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:14.559 mentioned that was important earlier, the quote Undisturbed Possession Land 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:18.840 and Property Agreement. Act's proposal is that this agreement should 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:23.120 apply to every New Zealand citizen, not just Mardy people, 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:27.320 unless there has been a legal agreement otherwise, such as 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.640 a White Tangy tribunal decision protecting a piece of land. 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.040 And they say that doing this would ensure quote, all 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.520 New Zealanders are equal under the law, with the same 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:41.920 rights and duties. If it passes, the bill would ultimately 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.720 lead to a referendum on what act has proposed. New 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.960 Zealanders would be asked if they accept the bill's interpretation 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:53.720 of these principles to enshrine them into law, but that's 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:55.440 very unlikely to happen. 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:58.280 We'll be back in a moment, but first a quick 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:03.920 word from our sponsor. Okay, so let me just get 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.960 my head around this quickly. So this treaty was signed, 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.000 you know, over one hundred years ago, and over time 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:15.480 and throughout New Zealand's history, these principles have emerged. And 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.400 now today in twenty twenty four, there is a party 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:22.280 in Parliament and who is part of the government who's saying, 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.360 we actually never got the chance to vote on those 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:29.000 things that are these principles, and we believe that needs 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.559 to happen. And you're saying this legislation has been introduced 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:34.440 and that if it passes, it would lead to a 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.199 referendum but where you just left off, is it that's 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:38.280 unlikely to happen right? 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:39.559 Why is that? 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.040 That is because of the current makeup of New Zealand's parliament. 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:46.400 So like Australia, New Zealand's parliament made up of a 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:51.439 lot of different parties. Unlike Australia, no one party has 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:55.320 formed a government by itself since early nineteen ninety six, 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:59.200 so within my lifetime, you know, as a comparison, the 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.559 Labor Party has formed government in the House of Representatives 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.959 just by itself. Another difference is that Australia's government flips 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.000 back and forth between the very established coalition of the 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:14.439 Liberal and National Parties and the Labor Party governing alone. 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:20.079 New Zealand's coalitions can be a variation of different combinations. 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:24.200 Different parties work together at different elections. Right now, the 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.840 government is a coalition of three broadly right wing parties, 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.800 National which Prime Minister Christopher Luxen belongs to the aforementioned 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:37.480 Act and New zealand First. Previous PM Jacinda A Dern, 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.600 formed government in twenty twenty with a coalition of Labor, 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.360 the Green Party and New Zealand First also a few 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:48.240 days ago. But back to today's coalition, At the last 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:52.320 election in October twenty twenty three, National, led by Christopher Luxen, 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.440 won the most seats, didn't win enough to form government 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:59.520 by itself, had to negotiate with smaller parties Act and 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:04.000 New First through a long process of negotiation that led 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.040 to coalition agreements. 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:06.960 Okay. 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.600 So, I mean the idea of forming government through a 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.240 coalition isn't foreign to us, but certainly we don't have 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.520 it to the same degree here. But one of the 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.240 things that happens when you have multiple parties become the 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.800 government is that there have to be concessions, right, Everyone 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.760 wants different things. So what sorts of agreements did National, 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.880 who said is the Prime Minister's party, what sort of 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.120 agreements did they make during these negotiations to get those 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:33.319 other two parties on board. 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.360 Part of Acts agreement with National was to allow them 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.560 to put forward the Treaty Principle's Bill. 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:42.600 Which is okay, the bill we're talking about today. 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:46.000 Yeah, And part of that meant that National would support 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.000 the bill's first phase, but no further than that, just 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:50.800 the first phase. 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:56.440 Okay, And so when does that support technically stop? Because 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:58.440 you said at the very beginning of this podcast that 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:01.960 Christopher Luxen, the Prime doesn't support this bill. 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.400 Yes, it basically has meant that they have supported the 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:10.199 first vote in Parliament. They've allowed the bill to pass 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:12.520 the first round of voting, which in New Zealand means 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:17.080 it goes to a committee discussion. It has not meant 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:21.200 public support for the bill, which is why Christopher Luxon 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:25.480 has spoken out about it publicly. But in actual Parliament 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:29.640 they voted for it one time and not again now 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:33.920 that it's been sent to a committee, national support has ended. Okay, 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.920 here's what Christopher Luxon said earlier this month. 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:41.040 My view a very simplistic interpretation of the Treaty of 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:45.320 WHITEITANGI that has served us, I think incredibly well. And 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.600 to simplify it down in the way through a piece 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.079 of legislation like this, I think is a disservice to 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.160 the treaty. We do not like this bill. We will 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.480 not be supporting it. We see no need for it 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:55.920 because we think it is divisive. 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.920 So even though it doesn't have the support of the 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:04.000 sitting Prime Minister, this bill has made quite a splash. 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:07.400 There has been quite a strong reaction to it, not 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.120 just inside Parliament but also outside of Parliament. Can you 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:13.760 talk me through what some of the reactions to the 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:14.720 bill have been. 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.480 So a minor party to party Maori has been the 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.840 most outspoken against the bill. One of their arguments is 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:27.040 that legally reinterpreting the treaty to mean everyone is equal 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.400 is not in its spirit. The spirit of the treaties 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:34.880 that it grants Marii particular rights, and that changing it 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.600 is not a way of achieving equality because Marii Ewe 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:42.600 face greater and more entrenched disadvantage, according to Tapati Mari 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:46.679 than other New Zealand communities, and that this disadvantage needs 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.920 to be addressed by government action, including law making everyone 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:53.720 equal under the law. Their argument is that this would 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:58.199 undo progress towards erasing this disadvantage. Another one of their 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:02.200 arguments is probably best ex prest by party co leader 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.920 Rowi riwait Titi in the parliamentary debate. 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.920 To Tito, white tangy is superior to any person in 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.160 any law if it created in this house this parliament, 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.520 means nothing in all Tardo without the tz or white Tangi. 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.640 The only people who can make changes in an agreement 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:22.560 are the parties who signed it. The King of England, 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:29.480 Man ayoahapu all tello. Now tell me David Simour, what's 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:30.800 one of those? Are you? 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.520 And here's the stance from the Labor opposition from MP 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.160 Willie Jackson. 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.120 David Seymour wants to turn over fifty years of our 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.800 understanding of treaty principles and partnership. The principles are clear, 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:46.600 mister speaker. 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:47.240 They're clear. 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:53.080 They're about partnership, they're about equity, they're about active protection 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:58.320 and they're about redrease. Simple Why is this offendous minister 0:13:58.440 --> 0:13:58.959 so much? 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:01.760 And so I think the first time, as I said 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.040 a bit earlier, that a lot of people internationally would 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.400 have seen this story was when the hukka was performed 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.520 in Parliament as part of a form of protest against 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:13.880 this bill. What has the reaction been from kiwis across 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:14.440 the country? 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.800 Ahead of the bill's introduction to Parliament, thousands of people 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:23.160 participated in a hikoy or a march from the far 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.280 northern tip of the North Island of New Zealand to 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.760 the capital, Wellington, which is in the south of the 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.520 North Island. Two hundred and thirty thousand people have signed 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.240 a petition calling for the bill to be thrown out 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.840 because it quote represents a direct assault on Marti Wright's 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:41.160 culture and identity. 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.840 Okay, so there is some pretty firm opposition there to 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.880 this bill, but you did mention that it won't progress 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.080 or it would be very unlikely for it to progress 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.720 given the composition of the Parliament and who's said therefore 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:55.120 and who's said they're agains. 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.400 So what happens now? What do we expect to see happen? 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.840 The bill is going through through a committee. Submissions are 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.600 now open to the public. I'm sure it will receive 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:09.200 lots of submissions. After that, it's back for another vote 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.280 where we know it doesn't have the support of the 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.280 majority and it will likely fail. That's not due to 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.640 happen for another six months or so, so we'll have 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:19.720 to loop you back in then. 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:20.640 Brilliant. 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.800 Well, thank you, Lucy for explaining quite a complex topic 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.840 and indeed making me understand and hopefully making our audience understand. 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.200 Thank you for joining us for another episode of the 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:34.720 Daily Ods. We'll back later today with some headlines, but 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:37.040 until then, have a great day. 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:42.040 My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Dunda 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.840 bungelung calcottin woman from Gadigol country. 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:48.800 The Daily os acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:51.320 the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.040 all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations. 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.280 We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries, 0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:58.600 both past and present.