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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to

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Speaker 2: the Daily OS. It's Wednesday, the twentieth of November.

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Speaker 3: I'm Lucy, I'm Zara.

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Speaker 2: You probably saw this video last week of a young

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Speaker 2: woman leading a harker in New Zealand's Parliament. Yesterday, thousands

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Speaker 2: of people gathered outside New Zealand's Parliament to protest the

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Speaker 2: same thing as that young woman who's actually an MP.

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Speaker 2: Her name's Hannah Raffitimip Clark.

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Speaker 1: That's a bill that would change the legal interpretation of

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Speaker 1: New Zealand's founding treaty. It's not just unpopular with thousands

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Speaker 1: of people, minor parties and the opposition, it also doesn't

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Speaker 1: have the support of Prime Minister Christopher Luxen.

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Speaker 4: This is such a complex story and as you said,

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Speaker 4: you know, I think it really gained international attention, especially

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Speaker 4: here in Australia when we saw that hakka in New

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Speaker 4: Zealand's Parliament. But it's a really important story and it's

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Speaker 4: one with a lot of layers. So I guess, Lucy,

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Speaker 4: where do we begin with it? How do we start

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Speaker 4: to tell this story?

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Speaker 2: We have to start in the year eighteen forty.

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Speaker 3: Okay, going way back then.

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Speaker 2: Going way back before we can kind of explain what

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Speaker 2: the bill is trying to change, we have to explain

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Speaker 2: what the status quo is. So going back to eighteen forty,

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Speaker 2: English officials and over five hundred Mari leaders signed Tatti

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Speaker 2: or Waitangi or the Treaty of Waitangi. Mari leaders signed

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Speaker 2: a Mari version of the treaty and English representatives signed

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Speaker 2: the English version. It was the English officials belief that

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Speaker 2: the treaty meant that the Marii had agreed to seed

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Speaker 2: sovereignty complete control over New Zealand to the British crown.

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Speaker 2: Marti leaders were not told that this was what the

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Speaker 2: English version of the treaty said. They were led to

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Speaker 2: believe they had given the English the right to make laws,

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Speaker 2: not to take over. This obviously led to decades of

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Speaker 2: conflict as the two conflicting interpretations, or rather the two

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Speaker 2: conflicting kind of versions of the treaty were carried out

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Speaker 2: in day to day life. Also important to note that

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Speaker 2: not every Marti leader in New Zealand signed the treaty

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Speaker 2: at the time, but the English decided it still applied

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Speaker 2: to them.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So we're talking about a treaty that was signed

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Speaker 4: in eighteen forty, and one central issue that emerged with

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Speaker 4: it was interpretation, or as you said, perhaps even just

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Speaker 4: understanding of what that treaty meant around certainly whether there

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Speaker 4: was full sovereignty seated or whether it was about making laws.

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Speaker 3: What else was in this treaty that now.

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Speaker 4: Gets to the heart of why there are so many

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Speaker 4: protests across New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: I'll go off the English language version of the treaty

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Speaker 2: because that is really, you know, what was used by

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Speaker 2: the settler government. It has three agreements. The first agreement

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Speaker 2: I've covered, and that's that in the English version, MARII

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Speaker 2: ceded sovereignty of New Zealand to the British Crown. The second,

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Speaker 2: and this one is really really important, is that if

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Speaker 2: Mary wanted to sell any of their land, they only

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Speaker 2: sold it to the English and in exchange they were

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Speaker 2: meant to have quote the full, exclusive and undisturbed possession

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Speaker 2: of their lands, forests and fisheries. So imagine that part

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Speaker 2: is bolded and underlined so that it's very very important.

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Speaker 2: And the third agreement was that Mary were to have

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Speaker 2: quote all the rights and privileges of British subjects. All

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Speaker 2: of these agreements have had really far reaching consequences.

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Speaker 4: So the first agreement was around sovereignty, the second it

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Speaker 4: was around the selling of land.

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Speaker 2: And then the kind of exclusive and undisturbed possession of.

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Speaker 4: That land, okay. And then the third was around the

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Speaker 4: rights of the Maori people.

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Speaker 3: Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 4: And so we've said that this was signed, you know,

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Speaker 4: decades and decades and decades ago. How is the treaty

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Speaker 4: affecting modern day New Zealand life? Just bringing it now

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Speaker 4: back into the present.

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Speaker 2: Following decades of both violent and peaceful conflicts between Marii

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Speaker 2: ewi that's the word that means communities and the British Crown.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy five, the New Zealand government set up

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Speaker 2: the White Tangi Tribunal to investigate allegations that the Treaty

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Speaker 2: wasn't being upheld. The tribunal has considered allegations about the

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Speaker 2: government's actions going all the way back to when the

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Speaker 2: treaty itself was signed in eighteen forty to the present,

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Speaker 2: including allegations of stealing land and polluting waterways. In a

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Speaker 2: landmark decision in twenty fourteen, the Tribunal found that one

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Speaker 2: EWI did not seed sovereignty when they signed the treaty.

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Speaker 2: The most important thing about the Tribunal to think about

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Speaker 2: today is that one of its responsibilities was to interpret

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Speaker 2: what the treaty agreements actually meant. This is something called

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Speaker 2: the principles of the Treaty. These principles have been established

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Speaker 2: over years of tribunal cases and expert opinion, and they

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Speaker 2: are now referred to, but not necessarily defined, in New

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Speaker 2: Zealand laws. I think a good way to think about

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Speaker 2: this for an Australian listening to this is that so

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Speaker 2: Australians don't have a legal right to freedom of speech

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Speaker 2: in our constitution, but across multiple High Court cases, judges

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Speaker 2: have found that the Constitution implies a right to political

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Speaker 2: expression because we live in a democracy. This basically means

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Speaker 2: you can't be stopped from saying something if a politician

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Speaker 2: doesn't want you to say it, and this has governed

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Speaker 2: a lot of legal cases. But it's not an official

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Speaker 2: law or in our constitution that we have a quote

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Speaker 2: freedom of speech like they do in the US. Now

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Speaker 2: back to why we're talking about this story today. One

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Speaker 2: New Zealand party wants to put a version of these

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Speaker 2: principles that have been established over decades into law.

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Speaker 4: Okay, And why does someone want to do or why

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Speaker 4: does a party want to be doing that, what's the

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Speaker 4: justification for doing that?

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Speaker 2: So the party in question is called Act, led by

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Speaker 2: David Seymour, and it says the Treaty principles have been

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Speaker 2: quote gradually built up over time, which they say means

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Speaker 2: the New Zealand public has never been democratically consulted on them.

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Speaker 2: They say, quote the Treaty principles are often mentioned in legislation,

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Speaker 2: but they have never actually been defined in law. And

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Speaker 2: for something that can govern land decisions and decisions made

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Speaker 2: about a group of people in New Zealand, they're saying,

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Speaker 2: this is something that needs to be legally defined, okay.

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Speaker 2: A bill introduced by Act would legally define what the

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Speaker 2: Treaty principles are and what the treaty means. This includes

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Speaker 2: establishing a new legal definition of that thing that I

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Speaker 2: mentioned that was important earlier, the quote Undisturbed Possession Land

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Speaker 2: and Property Agreement. Act's proposal is that this agreement should

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Speaker 2: apply to every New Zealand citizen, not just Mardy people,

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Speaker 2: unless there has been a legal agreement otherwise, such as

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Speaker 2: a White Tangy tribunal decision protecting a piece of land.

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Speaker 2: And they say that doing this would ensure quote, all

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Speaker 2: New Zealanders are equal under the law, with the same

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Speaker 2: rights and duties. If it passes, the bill would ultimately

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Speaker 2: lead to a referendum on what act has proposed. New

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Speaker 2: Zealanders would be asked if they accept the bill's interpretation

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Speaker 2: of these principles to enshrine them into law, but that's

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Speaker 2: very unlikely to happen.

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Speaker 4: We'll be back in a moment, but first a quick

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Speaker 4: word from our sponsor. Okay, so let me just get

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Speaker 4: my head around this quickly. So this treaty was signed,

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Speaker 4: you know, over one hundred years ago, and over time

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Speaker 4: and throughout New Zealand's history, these principles have emerged. And

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Speaker 4: now today in twenty twenty four, there is a party

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Speaker 4: in Parliament and who is part of the government who's saying,

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Speaker 4: we actually never got the chance to vote on those

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Speaker 4: things that are these principles, and we believe that needs

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Speaker 4: to happen. And you're saying this legislation has been introduced

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Speaker 4: and that if it passes, it would lead to a

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Speaker 4: referendum but where you just left off, is it that's

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Speaker 4: unlikely to happen right?

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Speaker 3: Why is that?

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Speaker 2: That is because of the current makeup of New Zealand's parliament.

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Speaker 2: So like Australia, New Zealand's parliament made up of a

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Speaker 2: lot of different parties. Unlike Australia, no one party has

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Speaker 2: formed a government by itself since early nineteen ninety six,

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Speaker 2: so within my lifetime, you know, as a comparison, the

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Speaker 2: Labor Party has formed government in the House of Representatives

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Speaker 2: just by itself. Another difference is that Australia's government flips

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Speaker 2: back and forth between the very established coalition of the

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Speaker 2: Liberal and National Parties and the Labor Party governing alone.

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Speaker 2: New Zealand's coalitions can be a variation of different combinations.

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Speaker 2: Different parties work together at different elections. Right now, the

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Speaker 2: government is a coalition of three broadly right wing parties,

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Speaker 2: National which Prime Minister Christopher Luxen belongs to the aforementioned

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Speaker 2: Act and New zealand First. Previous PM Jacinda A Dern,

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Speaker 2: formed government in twenty twenty with a coalition of Labor,

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Speaker 2: the Green Party and New Zealand First also a few

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Speaker 2: days ago. But back to today's coalition, At the last

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Speaker 2: election in October twenty twenty three, National, led by Christopher Luxen,

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Speaker 2: won the most seats, didn't win enough to form government

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Speaker 2: by itself, had to negotiate with smaller parties Act and

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Speaker 2: New First through a long process of negotiation that led

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Speaker 2: to coalition agreements.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: So, I mean the idea of forming government through a

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Speaker 4: coalition isn't foreign to us, but certainly we don't have

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Speaker 4: it to the same degree here. But one of the

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Speaker 4: things that happens when you have multiple parties become the

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Speaker 4: government is that there have to be concessions, right, Everyone

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Speaker 4: wants different things. So what sorts of agreements did National,

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Speaker 4: who said is the Prime Minister's party, what sort of

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Speaker 4: agreements did they make during these negotiations to get those

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Speaker 4: other two parties on board.

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Speaker 2: Part of Acts agreement with National was to allow them

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Speaker 2: to put forward the Treaty Principle's Bill.

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Speaker 3: Which is okay, the bill we're talking about today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And part of that meant that National would support

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Speaker 2: the bill's first phase, but no further than that, just

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Speaker 2: the first phase.

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Speaker 4: Okay, And so when does that support technically stop? Because

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Speaker 4: you said at the very beginning of this podcast that

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Speaker 4: Christopher Luxen, the Prime doesn't support this bill.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it basically has meant that they have supported the

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Speaker 2: first vote in Parliament. They've allowed the bill to pass

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Speaker 2: the first round of voting, which in New Zealand means

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Speaker 2: it goes to a committee discussion. It has not meant

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Speaker 2: public support for the bill, which is why Christopher Luxon

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Speaker 2: has spoken out about it publicly. But in actual Parliament

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Speaker 2: they voted for it one time and not again now

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Speaker 2: that it's been sent to a committee, national support has ended. Okay,

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Speaker 2: here's what Christopher Luxon said earlier this month.

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Speaker 5: My view a very simplistic interpretation of the Treaty of

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Speaker 5: WHITEITANGI that has served us, I think incredibly well. And

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Speaker 5: to simplify it down in the way through a piece

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Speaker 5: of legislation like this, I think is a disservice to

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Speaker 5: the treaty. We do not like this bill. We will

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Speaker 5: not be supporting it. We see no need for it

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Speaker 5: because we think it is divisive.

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Speaker 4: So even though it doesn't have the support of the

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Speaker 4: sitting Prime Minister, this bill has made quite a splash.

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Speaker 4: There has been quite a strong reaction to it, not

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Speaker 4: just inside Parliament but also outside of Parliament. Can you

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Speaker 4: talk me through what some of the reactions to the

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Speaker 4: bill have been.

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Speaker 2: So a minor party to party Maori has been the

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Speaker 2: most outspoken against the bill. One of their arguments is

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Speaker 2: that legally reinterpreting the treaty to mean everyone is equal

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Speaker 2: is not in its spirit. The spirit of the treaties

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Speaker 2: that it grants Marii particular rights, and that changing it

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Speaker 2: is not a way of achieving equality because Marii Ewe

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Speaker 2: face greater and more entrenched disadvantage, according to Tapati Mari

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Speaker 2: than other New Zealand communities, and that this disadvantage needs

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Speaker 2: to be addressed by government action, including law making everyone

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Speaker 2: equal under the law. Their argument is that this would

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Speaker 2: undo progress towards erasing this disadvantage. Another one of their

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Speaker 2: arguments is probably best ex prest by party co leader

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Speaker 2: Rowi riwait Titi in the parliamentary debate.

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Speaker 6: To Tito, white tangy is superior to any person in

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Speaker 6: any law if it created in this house this parliament,

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Speaker 6: means nothing in all Tardo without the tz or white Tangi.

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Speaker 6: The only people who can make changes in an agreement

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Speaker 6: are the parties who signed it. The King of England,

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Speaker 6: Man ayoahapu all tello. Now tell me David Simour, what's

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Speaker 6: one of those? Are you?

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Speaker 2: And here's the stance from the Labor opposition from MP

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Speaker 2: Willie Jackson.

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Speaker 7: David Seymour wants to turn over fifty years of our

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Speaker 7: understanding of treaty principles and partnership. The principles are clear,

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Speaker 7: mister speaker.

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Speaker 6: They're clear.

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Speaker 7: They're about partnership, they're about equity, they're about active protection

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Speaker 7: and they're about redrease. Simple Why is this offendous minister

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Speaker 7: so much?

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Speaker 4: And so I think the first time, as I said

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Speaker 4: a bit earlier, that a lot of people internationally would

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Speaker 4: have seen this story was when the hukka was performed

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Speaker 4: in Parliament as part of a form of protest against

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Speaker 4: this bill. What has the reaction been from kiwis across

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Speaker 4: the country?

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Speaker 2: Ahead of the bill's introduction to Parliament, thousands of people

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Speaker 2: participated in a hikoy or a march from the far

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Speaker 2: northern tip of the North Island of New Zealand to

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Speaker 2: the capital, Wellington, which is in the south of the

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Speaker 2: North Island. Two hundred and thirty thousand people have signed

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Speaker 2: a petition calling for the bill to be thrown out

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Speaker 2: because it quote represents a direct assault on Marti Wright's

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Speaker 2: culture and identity.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so there is some pretty firm opposition there to

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Speaker 4: this bill, but you did mention that it won't progress

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Speaker 4: or it would be very unlikely for it to progress

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Speaker 4: given the composition of the Parliament and who's said therefore

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Speaker 4: and who's said they're agains.

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Speaker 3: So what happens now? What do we expect to see happen?

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Speaker 2: The bill is going through through a committee. Submissions are

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Speaker 2: now open to the public. I'm sure it will receive

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Speaker 2: lots of submissions. After that, it's back for another vote

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Speaker 2: where we know it doesn't have the support of the

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Speaker 2: majority and it will likely fail. That's not due to

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Speaker 2: happen for another six months or so, so we'll have

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Speaker 2: to loop you back in then.

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Speaker 3: Brilliant.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you, Lucy for explaining quite a complex topic

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Speaker 4: and indeed making me understand and hopefully making our audience understand.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for joining us for another episode of the

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Speaker 4: Daily Ods. We'll back later today with some headlines, but

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Speaker 4: until then, have a great day.

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Speaker 2: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Dunda

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Speaker 2: bungelung calcottin woman from Gadigol country.

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Speaker 7: The Daily os acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 7: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

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Speaker 7: all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.

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Speaker 2: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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Speaker 2: both past and present.