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Speaker 1: Already and this is the daily This is the Daily OS.

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Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to

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Speaker 2: the Daily OS. It's Wednesday, the fifteenth of January. I'm Emma,

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Speaker 2: I'm Sam. At least two hundred psychiatrists have resigned from

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Speaker 2: New South Wales public hospitals after a mass departure of

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Speaker 2: psychiatrists from the sector last year. It comes amid an

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Speaker 2: ongoing dispute with the state government, a psychiatrists call for

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Speaker 2: better pay and better working conditions. After this latest round

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Speaker 2: of resignations, there are fears the sector could be reduced

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Speaker 2: by two thirds before the end of the month. GPS

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Speaker 2: a warning it could trigger a mental health crisis on

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Speaker 2: their end. So what's going.

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Speaker 1: On, well, Emma, today will talk you through this ongoing

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Speaker 1: dispute and unpack the stored negotiation between the New South

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Speaker 1: Wales government and the Doctors' union. But first, I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people can get mixed up between psychiatrists

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Speaker 1: and psychologists. Give us a quick recap on the difference

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Speaker 1: between the two and who are actually talking about today.

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Speaker 2: Yep, So psychiatrists, that's who we're talking about today are

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Speaker 2: medical doctors and they specialize in the diagnosis and the

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Speaker 2: treatment of mental health conditions. The biggest thing that separates

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Speaker 2: them from psychologists, you could argue, is that psychiatrists can

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Speaker 2: prescribe medications, so they're doctors, they prescribe meds. Psychologists are

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Speaker 2: the people that we might go and see to do therapy.

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Speaker 2: We might not get a prescription for medication from them,

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Speaker 2: So that's the important distinction. Another important distinction today, before

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Speaker 2: we get really stuck in, is that we're talking today

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Speaker 2: about psychiatrists who work in the public health sector. So

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Speaker 2: we're not talking about psychiatrists in private practice. We're talking

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Speaker 2: about the ones that might work in hospitals are the

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Speaker 2: state run mental health services. So that's the kind of

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Speaker 2: claimer ahead of today's chat.

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Speaker 1: So they on their pay statements at the end of

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Speaker 1: the month would have the new South Wales government as

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Speaker 1: their employer exactly. Okay, So there's been a mass resignation

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Speaker 1: of psychiatrists who work in this public health space. Where

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Speaker 1: have these walkouts come from?

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Speaker 2: Essentially it all boils down to a dispute over pay

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Speaker 2: and over working conditions. So psychiatrists in this instance a

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Speaker 2: work is represented by a union, the Australian Salaried Medical

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Speaker 2: Officers Federation, of New South Wales. But thankfully for us,

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Speaker 2: they're also called the Doctors Union, so I'll be calling

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Speaker 2: them the Doctor's Union to the.

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Speaker 1: Episode, I prefer ASTHMOV now ASMOV.

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Speaker 2: New South Wales or the Doctors Union have been advocating

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Speaker 2: for reform for several months to improve what they say

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Speaker 2: is a dangerously understaffed sector. Now, before these fresh resignations,

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Speaker 2: about a third of psychiatry positions in public health were

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Speaker 2: vacant in New South Wales. The union says this presents

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Speaker 2: a risk to patient welfare, so there's an impact on

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Speaker 2: the type of care that patients are able to receive.

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Speaker 2: But that also there is a staff shortage placing enormous

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Speaker 2: pressure on the existing workforce. So the psychiatrists left behind

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Speaker 2: are kind of suffering under all of that pressure.

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Speaker 1: And I know that today's discussion is about the New

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Speaker 1: South Wales division of this union, the psychiatrists in the state.

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Speaker 1: Does it represent a national trend? Is this happening all

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Speaker 1: over the country?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we know, especially on the other side

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Speaker 2: of COVID, that health providers and hospitals right across the

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Speaker 2: country have been struggling. There's resourcing and staffing issues all

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Speaker 2: around the country in various sectors. But there's an interesting

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Speaker 2: separation here which is about a pay disparity when it

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Speaker 2: comes to New South Wales health specialists, and this has

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Speaker 2: really formed the basis of these negotiations. The Doctors' Union

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Speaker 2: released a report last year that found a thirty percent

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Speaker 2: pay gap between what New South Wales public health psychiatrists

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Speaker 2: learn and what their counterparts interstate are earning. So that's

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Speaker 2: really the gap that the Doctors' Union has formed the

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Speaker 2: basis for its negotiations what it's demanding, and that pay

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Speaker 2: gap is kind of really driving those staff shortages currently

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Speaker 2: seen in New South Wales. As the union said, why

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Speaker 2: would a psychiatrist want to work for New South Wales

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Speaker 2: Health when they could make thirty percent more or be

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Speaker 2: thirty percent better off working somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's take stock of all of this. We've

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Speaker 1: got a workforce of psychiatrists in New South Wales who are,

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Speaker 1: according to them, not only paid less but also overworked,

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Speaker 1: which they say presents dangers to patients and also to

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Speaker 1: the psychiatrists themselves. That's the position they took into the

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Speaker 1: negotiations with the state government. What are the specifics of

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Speaker 1: those negotiations, like, what are both parties trying to reach

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Speaker 1: here to make the conditions better? Is it just pay?

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Speaker 2: So, as it so often is in these cases, it's

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Speaker 2: a lot more complicated than just pay. Negotiations began back

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Speaker 2: in September, and I think it's probably fair both sides

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Speaker 2: would probably agree that very little progress has been made

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Speaker 2: so far. The Doctor's Union is seeking a twenty five

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Speaker 2: percent pay increase for psychiatrists and as we mentioned, improved

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Speaker 2: conditions to address these concerns in the mental health system.

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Speaker 2: So that includes things like improved rostering systems and job security,

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Speaker 2: better workplace safety, safer working hours, and access to certain

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Speaker 2: entitlements like parental leave. The New South Wales government, in reply,

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Speaker 2: has proposed a ten point five percent pay increase over

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Speaker 2: three years.

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Speaker 1: So we've got almost a fifteen percent gap between the

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Speaker 1: positions of the two parties around the negotiating table. I'm

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Speaker 1: assuming that offer was rejected. So what's happened since September?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the union, as you rightly guessed, rejected that

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Speaker 2: offer immediately in September, and it's claimed since then that

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Speaker 2: the government has refused to budge on these negotiations. So

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Speaker 2: since then, half of New South Wales' public psychiatry workforce

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Speaker 2: has submitted their resignations. We had a tranch of resignations

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Speaker 2: in November around one hundred and forty people. That number

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Speaker 2: has now increased to two hundred resignations and the union

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Speaker 2: has reiterated this idea that the doctors really don't want

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Speaker 2: to quit. It's not that they want to walk away

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Speaker 2: from the sector or their jobs in public health. It's

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Speaker 2: more about being overworked, overwhelmed, and the union says these

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Speaker 2: workers are completely demoralized from working in a broken system

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Speaker 2: and basically they've been left with no other option.

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Speaker 1: And give me a sense of two hundred psychiatrists resigning,

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Speaker 1: what does that mean in the broader picture of the

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Speaker 1: New South Wales health system in psychiatry.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so in total there are about two hundred and

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Speaker 2: ninety five psychiatrists working for New South Wales Health so

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Speaker 2: we're talking about more than two thirds.

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Speaker 1: That's a serious chunk, exactly force.

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Speaker 2: A massive chunk. And the resignations are expected to take

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Speaker 2: effect from the twentieth of January.

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Speaker 1: So technak day, isn't that's also the inauguration of Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump in the US.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the TikTok. Then a little bit on what that

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Speaker 2: could mean is that we see those psychiatrists moving into

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Speaker 2: private practice, but it does leave that gap for urgent

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Speaker 2: psychiatry care. The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of

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Speaker 2: Psychiatrists is the peak national body for the sector and

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Speaker 2: it's been pretty vocal about wanting to reach a resolution

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Speaker 2: before that twentieth of January deadline to avoid these gaps.

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Speaker 2: It says that previous staffing gaps have created a crisis

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Speaker 2: for the psychiatry workforce in New South Wales and it's

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Speaker 2: worn the mass resignations would significantly impact some of the

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Speaker 2: most vulnerable people in our community, which is important to

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Speaker 2: remember when you think about who is accessing urgent psychiatry care.

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Speaker 2: RA and ZCP released a statement saying disruption to care

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Speaker 2: for those vulnerable people will have wide ranging impacts. And separately,

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Speaker 2: there's this interesting conversation going on with the general practice industry.

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Speaker 2: The peak body for GPS has warned that failure to

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Speaker 2: reach an agreement could impact gps who are already managing

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Speaker 2: high demand for mental health consult Sure.

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Speaker 1: Well, they'll have to kind of fill a vacuum almost

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Speaker 1: because the number of people who would presumably need psychiatry

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Speaker 1: services would not magically decrease by sixty percent, So that's

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Speaker 1: going to need to be serviced by somebody else exactly.

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Speaker 2: And there's a whole other separate issue of what psychiatrists

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Speaker 2: can prescribe for treatments us as what gps can prescribe.

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Speaker 2: If you're familiar with ADHD medication, psychiatrists can prescribe that.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of regulations and loopholes. You can't just

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Speaker 2: walk into a GP if you have an ADHD diagnosis

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Speaker 2: and get that medication straight away.

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Speaker 1: I want to understand the response from both New South

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Speaker 1: Wales Health and the New South Wales government. They're different bodies.

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Speaker 1: The negotiations are happening with the government, but New South

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Speaker 1: Wales Health as the employer, is obviously going to feel

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Speaker 1: the impact of this as well. How are they planning

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Speaker 1: to address this sudden shortfall in psychiatrists.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the Department of Health has issued an update

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Speaker 2: in anticipation of these disruptions to its public mental health services.

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Speaker 2: It said it's working on plans to manage the impact

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Speaker 2: of this proposed mass resignation of around two hundred psychiatrists.

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Speaker 2: The specific details of what those plans look like are

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Speaker 2: yet to be seen, but it did warrant that there

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Speaker 2: could be extensive disruption to services and the broader public

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Speaker 2: health system from the twentieth of January. So not a

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Speaker 2: lot of detail, but essentially the Department of Health conceding

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Speaker 2: that this could be significant for a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: And so then the New South Wales government as the

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Speaker 1: opposing side in these negotiations, they must have their own

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Speaker 1: position on why they're not coming to the table. Explain

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Speaker 1: to me why there hasn't been a resolution from their perspective.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, more broadly, the New South Wales government

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Speaker 2: has been locked in a range of bargaining agreement renegotiations

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Speaker 2: with health employees. One of the more high profile breakdowns

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Speaker 2: in negotiattions people might remember is the nurses and midwife

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Speaker 2: negotiations that led to mass strikes last year, delays inelective surgeries.

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Speaker 2: In between all of that, of course, we have this

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Speaker 2: going on with the psychiatrists. The state's Health Minister, Ryan

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Speaker 2: Park has basically said that their requests are impractical. The

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Speaker 2: pay increase requests specifically is not feasible. He said that

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Speaker 2: the government doesn't want this action to take place. He

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Speaker 2: told psychiatrists their work is valued, but that the government's

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Speaker 2: not in a position to offer wage increases to the

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Speaker 2: amount that psychiatrists are calling for. Park said that it's

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Speaker 2: absolutely critical that both parties remain at the negotiating table,

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Speaker 2: but the government is also working through action with the

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Speaker 2: Industrial Relations Commission that could try to prevent or delay

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Speaker 2: these resignations from proceeding if there's not some kind of

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Speaker 2: progress in the negotiations now. In terms of the New

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Speaker 2: South Wales Premier Chris Mins, he conceded at a press

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Speaker 2: conference on Sunday that part of the health network will

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Speaker 2: face real pressure if these staff numbers are harved. He

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Speaker 2: said there'll be enormous pressure on the police force, on

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Speaker 2: corrective services, on public hospitals and emergency departments. Mins noted

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Speaker 2: that this twenty five percent annual pay increase would be

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Speaker 2: a salary increase of about eighty to ninety thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: He said that's the equivalent of the entire salary for

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Speaker 2: a first year nurse. It's just not justifiable. And then

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Speaker 2: we have also heard from the New South Wales Liberal opposition.

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Speaker 2: It's accused the min's government of abandoning the state's most vulnerable,

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Speaker 2: and it's said that the psychiatrist's shortage is going to

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Speaker 2: leave people without the care they urgently require. Shadow Health

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Speaker 2: Minister Kelly Sloan said Labor must address the issue as

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Speaker 2: a matter of urgency for psychiatrists, patients and the broader community, who,

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Speaker 2: she said, are all at risk if a solution is

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Speaker 2: not broken.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's an important piece of text here

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Speaker 1: to remind everybody that historically this is not unusual, no

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Speaker 1: matter what the sector is. I mean, we've seen it

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Speaker 1: with train drivers for example, in recent months. Then normally

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Speaker 1: is some sort of resolution reached between the warring parties, often,

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Speaker 1: you know, five minutes to midnight on the last day

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Speaker 1: exact negotiation.

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Speaker 2: It's all about compromise, and there is still.

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Speaker 1: A little bit of time before that twentieth of January deadline.

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Speaker 1: But I really appreciate you talking us through the context

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Speaker 1: behind this so that when we hear about whether there's

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Speaker 1: negotiations reach a tipping point and in fact a resolution,

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Speaker 1: hopefully that we understand a bit about where that's come from.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me, Zam.

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Speaker 1: And thank you for joining us on the Daily OZ today.

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Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode. It would mean a lot

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Speaker 1: to us if you shared it with a friend. It

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Speaker 1: really helps us grow. Perhaps somebody who is a listener

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Speaker 1: of other podcasts and they're ready for a news one,

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Speaker 1: sending it to them would make our day. We'll be

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Speaker 1: back again in the afternoon with your headlines. Until then,

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Speaker 1: have a great day, Miss Lily Maddon, and I'm a

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Speaker 1: proud Arunda Bunjelung Calkatin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily

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Speaker 1: oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands

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Speaker 1: of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal

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Speaker 1: and torrest Rate island and nations. We pay our respects

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Speaker 1: to the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.