Speaker 1: Hello.
Speaker 2: My name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud your the
Speaker 2: Order Kerni Wholbury and a waddery woman. And before we
Speaker 2: get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would
Speaker 2: like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of
Speaker 2: which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging
Speaker 2: the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through
Speaker 2: as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and
Speaker 2: the storytelling of you to make a difference for today
Speaker 2: and lasting impact for tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Let's get into it. She's on the Money. She's on
Speaker 1: the Money.
Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money CAUs for
Speaker 3: millennials who want financial freedom. I'm your host, Victoria Devine,
Speaker 3: and today we're shining a light on an often hidden
Speaker 3: form of domestic violence, financial abuse. We are joined by
Speaker 3: a woman whose life work is all about identifying and
Speaker 3: ending financial abuse. Her name is Caroline Wall and she's
Speaker 3: from the Commonwealth Bank. Caroline, Welcome to the show. I'm
Speaker 3: actually very excited to have you here because this is
Speaker 3: something we need to be breaking open so much more often.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3: No of course, before we get into I have a
Speaker 3: lot of questions. But before we get into all of
Speaker 3: those questions, I did just want to give this episode
Speaker 3: a content warning. I know that our topic is financial abuse,
Speaker 3: but I did want to let you know that for
Speaker 3: immediate crisis support relating to domestic violence or sexual abuse,
Speaker 3: you can also call one eight hundred respect and in
Speaker 3: an emergency or if you're not feeling safe, please always
Speaker 3: call Triple zero. But today we are talking at out
Speaker 3: recognizing the signs of financial abuse, how it presents in relationships,
Speaker 3: where to access help, and what different services can be
Speaker 3: provided in so much more. But first, Caroline, I'm very
Speaker 3: excited to have you here because I want to know
Speaker 3: so much more about your work. I know you've worked
Speaker 3: in this space for a very long time. Tell me
Speaker 3: about how long you've worked in this space and what
Speaker 3: led you to I guess have this as a passion
Speaker 3: for your entire career.
Speaker 4: Thank you. I've worked in the area of customer vulnerability
Speaker 4: for close on ten years now. I work at the
Speaker 4: moment in a team of specialists that really represent the
Speaker 4: voice of a customer inside a large financial institution, and
Speaker 4: to make sure that we're working with community organizations to
Speaker 4: make sure people's voices are heard and understood and that
Speaker 4: they're treated fairly when trying to under access and undertake
Speaker 4: their banking. One of my key focus areas is very
Speaker 4: much family and domestic violence and a notion of financial
Speaker 4: abuse and trying to understand how banking products and banking
Speaker 4: services can be misused or weaponized by perpetrators of family
Speaker 4: and domestic violence, to make sure that we're considering ways
Speaker 4: to develop products in a way that really centers the
Speaker 4: safety of our customers into the product's design. By this space, SCOSH,
Speaker 4: financial abuse and family and domestic violence continues to be
Speaker 4: one of the most significant challenges that we face as
Speaker 4: a society today. And I was really drawn to working
Speaker 4: in this area back around twenty fifteen when our organization
Speaker 4: started to look at the issues surrounding domestic violence and
Speaker 4: financial abuse to understand the role that finances often play
Speaker 4: in keeping people trapped in abusive relationships.
Speaker 3: And it's wild that that, you know, even in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty four, is so prevalent, Like it breaks my heart.
Speaker 3: I feel like it is a massive privilege to be
Speaker 3: leading that She's on the Money community, Like it's literally
Speaker 3: my favorite thing in the entire world. But one of
Speaker 3: the really heartbreaking parts of She's on the Money is
Speaker 3: I'm often a very trusted human that if you're experiencing
Speaker 3: financial abuse and don't really know what that looks like
Speaker 3: or how that works, I get an influx of messages.
Speaker 3: So sadly I know a lot about this, having worked
Speaker 3: in financial advice and worked in this space, I just
Speaker 3: feel that it is so much more prevalent, but we
Speaker 3: don't seem to understand fully what that looks like. Caroline,
Speaker 3: how did you fall into the space of customer vulnerability?
Speaker 3: What did that look like? Because I know you've been
Speaker 3: in it for ten plus years, but you know, do
Speaker 3: you finish university and go all right, well, I'd really
Speaker 3: like to work in this space or is it something
Speaker 3: like how do you get into this area of work?
Speaker 4: The great question that there's no degree that I'm aware
Speaker 4: of that is custom of vulnerability.
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm asking you don't go to UNI for this.
Speaker 4: My background is actually philosophy in politics, so not particularly
Speaker 4: relevant to the work that I'm doing today.
Speaker 3: Yes, it is people who do philosophy and politics. You
Speaker 3: know what those people do? They care a lot like
Speaker 3: you don't study philosophy or politics. If you don't want
Speaker 3: to instigate change, do you.
Speaker 4: That's true, true, And I've always been interested, as you say,
Speaker 4: in instigating change through a series of roles. Starting out
Speaker 4: in investor relations, so looking at corporate social responsibilities sort
Speaker 4: of how big companies can do good. Spent a number
Speaker 4: of years sort of working in that space and examining,
Speaker 4: you know, shareholder activism and environmental and social governance for
Speaker 4: big companies, and from there ended up over in Australia
Speaker 4: about ten years ago. Case you can't tell from my
Speaker 4: accent I am English. That's not a strong and despite
Speaker 4: ten years, I still can't get quite rid of the
Speaker 4: British twang. But started working for a bank over here
Speaker 4: in Australia and it was round about the time that
Speaker 4: a new banking Code of Practice came into effect which
Speaker 4: really started to introduce some social policy for banks to consider.
Speaker 4: So the role of supporting customers who, due to their
Speaker 4: personal or situational circumstances, may have challenges accessing banking. You know,
Speaker 4: for the majority of people, using digital banking is not
Speaker 4: an issue, or going to your local branches not an issue,
Speaker 4: but for some people they can face really challenging barriers
Speaker 4: to maintaining their banking and so I started to work
Speaker 4: in that space to understand the role of financial institutions
Speaker 4: and making it easier for people to access what is
Speaker 4: essentially an essential service.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I feel like this space is really misunderstood
Speaker 3: as well. We've been trying to do, you know, over
Speaker 3: the years that she's on, The Money has existed a
Speaker 3: lot of work to educate people on what financial abuse
Speaker 3: looks like. And we have been so privileged to have
Speaker 3: money diarists come on the show that say I've experienced
Speaker 3: this or you know, this is you know, my reality,
Speaker 3: or I've gotten out of this, and it's really inspiring
Speaker 3: to see that. But I think that has opened my
Speaker 3: eyes up and our community's eyes up to the idea
Speaker 3: that financial abuse isn't just your partner abusing you know,
Speaker 3: the system, or abusing you through money. We've seen, you know,
Speaker 3: people come on the show and talk about how they're
Speaker 3: being financially abused by parent. We've seen people who have
Speaker 3: lost money through cousins abusing them financially. So I want
Speaker 3: to kind of talk to you about what you believe
Speaker 3: are the biggest misconceptions about financial abuse. What does that
Speaker 3: actually look like, because I think so many times, especially
Speaker 3: if we have the privilege of never having experienced that,
Speaker 3: we just don't assume, like we just don't get it
Speaker 3: and it's not really the reality of this situation, right.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think you know, there are a lot
Speaker 4: of misconceptions around what financial abuse is, but also what
Speaker 4: it isn't. It's very much a hidden epidemic still, certainly
Speaker 4: you know in Australia and probably globally as well, which
Speaker 4: really just means it's not very well understood. There's an
Speaker 4: estimated ninety percent of people who seek support for other
Speaker 4: forms of family and domestic violence who also say that
Speaker 4: they've been affected by financial law what's sometimes called economic abuse.
Speaker 4: Yet people just don't recognize the science, and that's because
Speaker 4: there's just a lack of awareness about what it is.
Speaker 4: So when you talk about someone restricting or accessing another
Speaker 4: person's access to money, be that their partner or a
Speaker 4: family member, we might view them as sort of being
Speaker 4: a bit of a bad actor or acting in an
Speaker 4: inappropriate way, but we rarely, very rarely think about it
Speaker 4: as a form of actual abuse. Yet it really is
Speaker 4: a form of family and domestic violence. And so how
Speaker 4: do we dispel some of the misconceptions, right, Because there's
Speaker 4: nothing wrong with one person in a relationship managing money, right,
Speaker 4: Let's be clear about that. That in itself is not
Speaker 4: financial abuse. But if one person is managing all of
Speaker 4: the money in a relationship but not consulting with the
Speaker 4: other person and that they don't have a say in
Speaker 4: that decision, that then becomes a potentially abusive situation. And
Speaker 4: so what we're really looking at here is someone deliberately
Speaker 4: using money or other resources to gain power and control
Speaker 4: over someone else. It's all about the power dynamic between individuals.
Speaker 4: So that could be you know, not being allowed to
Speaker 4: be able to make decisions about how your household income
Speaker 4: is spent. It could be being denied money for basic expenses.
Speaker 4: It could be being forced to take out alone in
Speaker 4: your name. And the reason that we often use a
Speaker 4: term perpetrator or user of violence is because it's not
Speaker 4: an accident. You know, we're not talking about someone accidentally
Speaker 4: using the joint account for a large personal expense. We're
Speaker 4: talking about a choice that one person makes to use
Speaker 4: money to control their partner or ex partner. And I
Speaker 4: think probably the last thing you know, common misconception is
Speaker 4: that it's just women who can experience financial abuse. It
Speaker 4: is largely a gendered issue, which means, you know, women
Speaker 4: are predominantly affected, but you know, men can be affected
Speaker 4: by financial abuse too, And certainly we know that people
Speaker 4: in the LGBTQA plus community, people in same sex relationships
Speaker 4: are in fact even more likely to be impacted by
Speaker 4: financial abuse than people in heterosexual relationships. And I think
Speaker 4: that's not known, and so a lot of men who
Speaker 4: may experience this form of abuse kind of minimize it
Speaker 4: and don't realize it's an issue because we just don't
Speaker 4: speak about it.
Speaker 3: It's really heartbreaking, actually, because when I have conversations in
Speaker 3: our communities sometimes they just start off as, what, you know,
Speaker 3: the person messaging me, my assume is relatively innocent, and
Speaker 3: they'll say, oh, hey, they I was just wondering, like
Speaker 3: my boyfriend does X, Y and Z, and I was
Speaker 3: just wondering like is this normal? Or should I ask
Speaker 3: him in a different way? Or he doesn't let me
Speaker 3: have access to my money because he says that I'm
Speaker 3: really bad at it, and I just I don't think
Speaker 3: I'm that bad at And you kind of have to
Speaker 3: dig a little bit deeper, ask a few questions, and
Speaker 3: then it's really hard to say, hey, I don't know
Speaker 3: how to tell you this in you know, a lighter way.
Speaker 3: But what's occurring is actually financial abuse, and we need
Speaker 3: to deal with that. And I think a lot of
Speaker 3: the time that can be really fronting because we have
Speaker 3: this misconception in our head that abuse is physical or
Speaker 3: it's verbal, not that it could be financial. I think
Speaker 3: to us, you just go, no, that's not it, like
Speaker 3: he's just better at money, or you know, he thinks
Speaker 3: he's better at money, and you just don't consider how
Speaker 3: that works. And I just think, to me, that's heartbreaking
Speaker 3: and sadly it is nothing new. Can we talk about
Speaker 3: I guess how the modern world? I feel so old
Speaker 3: saying that. But how does technology play into this? Because
Speaker 3: I feel like historically it was you know, you got
Speaker 3: your pay sleep and you went home and a lot
Speaker 3: of things were done in cash and you might not
Speaker 3: have had cash. But it's also a technological issue these days.
Speaker 3: What role has technology been playing in making things, sadly
Speaker 3: more prevalent?
Speaker 4: Technology has many advantages and I sure we'll get onto
Speaker 4: that in a moment. But with sort of the rise
Speaker 4: and increase in digital banking and other forms of technology
Speaker 4: comes new forms of abuse. I would say is that
Speaker 4: users of violence or perpetrators are very very smart at
Speaker 4: understanding and using technology in a way that it was
Speaker 4: never intended or designed to be used and to control, track, stock,
Speaker 4: and intimidate people. So there's a whole new term, right
Speaker 4: that's called technology facilitated abuse, which speaks specifically to how
Speaker 4: technology can be used as a form of controlling behavior.
Speaker 4: Now that's sort of broader than just the banking or
Speaker 4: financial context, so it can include everything from forbidding someone
Speaker 4: from having a mobile phone, limiting who they can contact.
Speaker 4: It could be making continuous or controlling threats, or phone
Speaker 4: calls to someone or text messages with the sole purpose
Speaker 4: of sort of harassing or stalking them. We see instances
Speaker 4: of people being forced to take photos of where they are,
Speaker 4: to disclose their location to prove that they are when
Speaker 4: they say they are. Also surveillance and stalking, and I
Speaker 4: think that's one of the primary concerns from a banking
Speaker 4: and tech perspective that we have and a lot of
Speaker 4: people seeking help for other forms of family and domestic violence,
Speaker 4: A very high percentage of those individuals when they go
Speaker 4: into a safe house or they seek support from a
Speaker 4: community organization, discover that there is some sort of surveillance
Speaker 4: technology on either their phone or their car. Now, when
Speaker 4: it comes to banking, that can be particularly dangerous because
Speaker 4: if someone's got access to your phone, they also have
Speaker 4: access to your online banking. So even if you follow
Speaker 4: all the steps that a financial institution will tell you
Speaker 4: to do to secure your banking, like changing your passwords
Speaker 4: or using different types of multi factor authentication, if someone
Speaker 4: has spyware on your device and you don't know it,
Speaker 4: you can change your password as many times as you want,
Speaker 4: and that person is still going to be able to
Speaker 4: access your finances or your location. Some recent really disturbing
Speaker 4: trends of people misusing what we call the transaction field
Speaker 4: in a banking transfer. So if I were to send
Speaker 4: you money, I've seen this in our community. It's wild, absolutely,
Speaker 4: and it's not the kind of terminology you'd expect, right,
Speaker 4: So not only people using profanity in those description fields,
Speaker 4: which you know is relatively easy to block, it's very
Speaker 4: nuanced language that is relevant only to the person receiving it.
Speaker 4: So you know, have you checked that the dogs are
Speaker 4: still outside today? Right might just seem like an innocent question,
Speaker 4: you know, to most people, but if you know that
Speaker 4: your partner or ex partner has made threats against the
Speaker 4: safety of your animals, that then becomes a really intimidating
Speaker 4: message to receive. And you know, we review, I think
Speaker 4: in my team alone, about fifteen hundred high risk cases
Speaker 4: a year where we're concerned about the safety of the individuals,
Speaker 4: and in most of those cases there may be you know,
Speaker 4: anti violence orders in place against the person, no contact order. Now,
Speaker 4: you can change your address, you can change your phone number,
Speaker 4: you can block someone off social media. Interestingly, one of
Speaker 4: the things that you actually can't do is stop someone
Speaker 4: from sending you money if they have your bsb an
Speaker 4: account number. And you know, in intimate partner relationships, it
Speaker 4: could be that you have children together, right, and you
Speaker 4: need child support payments, and if the only way to
Speaker 4: get child support payments is for those payments to come
Speaker 4: from your partner or ex partner, then you are leaving
Speaker 4: them an open field of communication to be able to
Speaker 4: send you know, harassing, stalking, or threatening messages. So that's
Speaker 4: just one way that we see technology increasing the risk
Speaker 4: for people experiencing some forms of financial abuse?
Speaker 3: What do we do if we're in that situation? I've
Speaker 3: seen it pop up a couple of times in our community,
Speaker 3: And for those of you who thankfully might not know
Speaker 3: what we're talking about, we sometimes see people who have
Speaker 3: been blocked on every single account and they can't call you,
Speaker 3: they can't message you, they don't have your email, they
Speaker 3: don't have your address. They'll transfer one cent with threatening messages,
Speaker 3: and we've seen it where it's hundreds of messages a day,
Speaker 3: sometimes sometimes just a message here and there to let
Speaker 3: you know that they're still around. And it's a very
Speaker 3: large form of abuse. But what can we do, Caroline?
Speaker 3: Because I feel like in those situations, a lot of
Speaker 3: people throw their hands up and go, I'm helpless here,
Speaker 3: like I don't know what to do now, like I
Speaker 3: thought I'd done absolutely everything I could. Who do we
Speaker 3: talk to?
Speaker 1: What do we do?
Speaker 3: Where do we go?
Speaker 2: Yet?
Speaker 4: Great, great question, And it depends on the situation you're on.
Speaker 4: And what I would say to anyone experiencing any form
Speaker 4: of financial abuse or other forms of abuse is you're
Speaker 4: the one who knows your situation the best right and
Speaker 4: what is safe for you to do? If it's not safe?
Speaker 4: For you to take action, then obviously you need to
Speaker 4: be you know, make that decision yourself. If you don't
Speaker 4: need money from the person who's sending you abuse, you
Speaker 4: can contact your bank. Most banks now across Australia have
Speaker 4: programs in place to help people experiencing this form of abuse,
Speaker 4: So I'd say first and foremost approach your bank can
Speaker 4: tell them what's happening. There are some circumstances where actually
Speaker 4: you may want those descriptions as evidence of a breach
Speaker 4: of an anti violence order right and if that's the case,
Speaker 4: you might not want them to stop because that might
Speaker 4: be the only evidence that you have that your perpetrator
Speaker 4: is trying to contact you in breaching and AVIO. So
Speaker 4: in those cases, you can still let your bank know
Speaker 4: just what you're experiencing, but that you don't want any
Speaker 4: action taken for the time being because you are using
Speaker 4: that as evidence of part of a broader police investigation.
Speaker 4: If you do want that abuse to stop, there's a
Speaker 4: couple of options. Most banks can set up what's called
Speaker 4: safe bank accounts, which is a brand new bank account
Speaker 4: with a different you know, BSB and account number. You
Speaker 4: can also look at getting an account number where the
Speaker 4: BSB doesn't show your location, so for many people don't
Speaker 4: know the BSB code before your account number at stands
Speaker 4: for whatever branch your account is opened in. So if
Speaker 4: you've opened an account in person, there is a unique
Speaker 4: code which you'll tell you you know where that account is,
Speaker 4: like home to your domicel too.
Speaker 3: That's so smart. That's something I literally never thought about,
Speaker 3: and I know that my BSB is my local bank
Speaker 3: account or like my local suburb of where my parents live,
Speaker 3: because that's where I opened my first bank account when
Speaker 3: I got my first job, and I hadn't thought about it.
Speaker 4: But it can disclose your location. Yeah, so especially if
Speaker 4: you've moved and you want to keep your address a
Speaker 4: secret and you don't want someone to know what area
Speaker 4: you're living in. You can open your account online. So
Speaker 4: most of the time when you open an account online,
Speaker 4: depending on your bank, you get a digital BSB which
Speaker 4: can't be tracked to a particular location as opposed to
Speaker 4: doing it in a branch.
Speaker 3: That's really smart.
Speaker 4: If your tech is being surveiled and you do need
Speaker 4: to go to a branch, let them know and they
Speaker 4: can open one, often with a different BSB that you
Speaker 4: might be Victoria or in Queensland, so that you know
Speaker 4: you can't be tracked to that location, so you considerup
Speaker 4: a safe bank account that way, and that way your
Speaker 4: perpetrator doesn't have your account details, so they can't send
Speaker 4: you money. Now, that won't work if you need money
Speaker 4: from the person, so if you do need to keep
Speaker 4: receiving money. Unfortunately, there's a whole load of background regulation
Speaker 4: that means your bank can't actually hide the description that
Speaker 4: is sent with a transfer, but what they can do
Speaker 4: is take action in many cases. So I know at
Speaker 4: least probably about ten or more banks across Australia will
Speaker 4: send warning letters to people who are misusing banking platforms
Speaker 4: in this way. And they all have terms and conditions
Speaker 4: which say it's unacceptable behavior, and so they can send
Speaker 4: a warning letter to the person to say, look, we've
Speaker 4: noticed in behavior on your account that's in breach of
Speaker 4: the bank's terms and conditions. Please see so otherwise you know,
Speaker 4: we may take further action if that continues. I know,
Speaker 4: certainly for the bank that I work at, we can
Speaker 4: actually remove someone's access to digital banking so that the
Speaker 4: can't send a description with a transfer. They can still
Speaker 4: set up an automated payment, but they don't get the
Speaker 4: option to add that description into the description field. And
Speaker 4: you know, in some cases, you know, if the abuse
Speaker 4: continues and it is causing severe harm to the victim
Speaker 4: and it's possible to do so, a bank may actually
Speaker 4: look at closing that customer's account because it really is
Speaker 4: no place for abuse. And you know, all of the
Speaker 4: industry is very clear on taking a stance against financial
Speaker 4: abuse in this way.
Speaker 3: I really like that it's across the industry, Like I know,
Speaker 3: when CBA approached me and she's on the money to
Speaker 3: work together to talk about this topic because it is
Speaker 3: so important. One of the things that I was like
Speaker 3: was like, look, I really want to talk about this topic,
Speaker 3: but I don't want to align to a specific bank
Speaker 3: on it because it's an international issue. It's not just
Speaker 3: an issue that one bank is dealing with. I think
Speaker 3: my favorite thing is that CBA is like, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: we'll help anyone who's with any bank, Like, we're just
Speaker 3: here out we just want to get rid of this.
Speaker 3: Is that something one I feel like that's very different
Speaker 3: to the way a lot of banks and a lot
Speaker 3: of the industry work, right they go, oh, well, we
Speaker 3: offer ABC and D for our customers and CBA is
Speaker 3: a bit different. They are offering this help for literally
Speaker 3: anybody who needs it. How was that decision made, Because
Speaker 3: that's not a small decision, that's a that's a massive undertaking.
Speaker 4: CBA have always had a position and a lot of
Speaker 4: the industry you have the same position, right, which is
Speaker 4: that tackling the issue of financial abuse is not an
Speaker 4: area of competitive advantage for the bank or for any bank.
Speaker 4: And if we, as the largest organization at CBA in Australia,
Speaker 4: have the resourcing data capability to be able to identify
Speaker 4: and proactively put support measures in place, then we want
Speaker 4: to make sure that we are sharing that with organizations
Speaker 4: who don't have the same size and scale that we do.
Speaker 4: And so we made a decision from everything from how
Speaker 4: we detect this form of abuse. We use AI to
Speaker 4: try and detect this form of abuse, which picks up
Speaker 4: that nuance messaging that doesn't just contain profanity, right. We
Speaker 4: actually put that on a platform called GitHub and made
Speaker 4: it open source so that any bank can pick up
Speaker 4: that model. I love yeah and put it into their
Speaker 4: own data sets to use the same sort of algorithms
Speaker 4: and the same machine learning that we had developed over
Speaker 4: sort of eighteen months to detect this form of abuse,
Speaker 4: and we've had conversation with banks in England, We've had
Speaker 4: conversations with banks in Canada who are also starting to
Speaker 4: see platforms being misused in this way, to say, hey,
Speaker 4: look we've done the work right. We've spent two three
Speaker 4: years looking at this issue, developing solutions and technology to
Speaker 4: detect it, So why don't we make that available? And
Speaker 4: the same goes for our support services. Predominantly, you know,
Speaker 4: our specialist family in domestic violence and financial abuse teams
Speaker 4: do support our own customers, but you know, not every
Speaker 4: one banks or a particular bank, or if you want
Speaker 4: a safe account. What we also recommend, by the way,
Speaker 4: is if you are experiencing financial abuse and you want
Speaker 4: to regain control of your financial independence, the best way
Speaker 4: to do that is to set up an account that
Speaker 4: your perpetrator doesn't bank with. So if you're a CBA customer,
Speaker 4: you know, find a different bank, if you're with one
Speaker 4: of the other big four, you know, pick a different
Speaker 4: bank to have your safe account with, just to ensure
Speaker 4: that there is you know, absolutely no way that that
Speaker 4: person can access It's such a clean bay get access
Speaker 4: to your banking services. So if we can do anything
Speaker 4: to try and tackle the issue as an industry, we're
Speaker 4: all very much in agreement that it's an industry issue
Speaker 4: and that we want to work together to try and
Speaker 4: solve for it.
Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more. And I just I really like
Speaker 3: obviously the idea of collaboration over competition in a space
Speaker 3: that it shouldn't even be a conversation, like it should
Speaker 3: just be like, wow, this makes sense. But you can
Speaker 3: also go you know, from a business perspective, right, you
Speaker 3: would look at it and be like, well, CBA spent
Speaker 3: literally millions of dollars creating this code and creating this plan,
Speaker 3: and then they're just giving it away. I think that
Speaker 3: says a lot to how serious they are about stamping
Speaker 3: this out and how serious they are about, you know,
Speaker 3: making sure that everybody has financial freedom and everybody isn't
Speaker 3: constrained by this, because, I mean, abuse comes in so
Speaker 3: many different forms, but financial abuse is something that is
Speaker 3: really nuanced. It's really it can be quite sneaky, and
Speaker 3: the people that are using financial abuse as a way
Speaker 3: to get to their victim, you could say they are
Speaker 3: very sneaky and it does involve a lot more deep
Speaker 3: diving than just you know, having keywords come up. So Caroline,
Speaker 3: let's go to a really quick break on the flip side.
Speaker 3: I have a few other things I want to talk
Speaker 3: to you about, specifically around how do we identify that
Speaker 3: we might be in a financial abusive relationship if we
Speaker 3: are arming and erring about whether that's something that we
Speaker 3: are in, And I kind of want to know about
Speaker 3: how we can help ourselves or help others. So guys
Speaker 3: don't go anywhere, all right, guys, we are back, and
Speaker 3: today I have the absolute privilege of having a chat
Speaker 3: with Carolyn Wall who's from CBA, but she has devoted
Speaker 3: her entire life's work to identifying and ending financial abuse,
Speaker 3: which is something that I am also wildly passionate about
Speaker 3: and think we need to give a lot more airtime
Speaker 3: too that Caroline, I want to talk now about how
Speaker 3: we identify the signs of financial abuse because they're often
Speaker 3: not that clear. It's not something that you know, often
Speaker 3: our friends can pick up sadly, and it's not something
Speaker 3: that we often want to I would say, admit to,
Speaker 3: because it can be really hard to admit to that
Speaker 3: or you know, really identify that. So I want to
Speaker 3: get into it. Now, what are the signs that someone
Speaker 3: might be in a financially abusive relationship.
Speaker 4: It's really difficult sometimes, as you said, to identify a
Speaker 4: situation when you're in it, and that's especially true for
Speaker 4: something like financial abuse, because what we often see is
Speaker 4: it's starting as what seems to be relatively innocent actions, right.
Speaker 4: That could be anything from you know, a partner suggesting
Speaker 4: that you open a joint account and put both of
Speaker 4: your incomes into the joint account. Again, on its own,
Speaker 4: not an issue, but then you know, you see, you know,
Speaker 4: slightly less innocent looking requests, Well could you just take
Speaker 4: this loan out in your name because I've got bad
Speaker 4: credit and they might, you know, deny me for this loan.
Speaker 3: I'll pay it back.
Speaker 4: I just you know, need you to have your name
Speaker 4: on the application, or or why don't you stop working
Speaker 4: so that you can take better care of the kids
Speaker 4: and I'll go out and do the work, and then
Speaker 4: you know, I can just give you an allowance for
Speaker 4: daily expenses. While some of those individual innostances may not be,
Speaker 4: you know, a problem, what we do see is escalating
Speaker 4: over time. So some of the things that we would
Speaker 4: consider red flags would be, as I mentioned, forcing someone
Speaker 4: to take out debts in their own name that they're
Speaker 4: getting no benefit from. We also see per portrayers taking
Speaker 4: out and someone else's name without their knowledge.
Speaker 3: Yes, we had a money diarist where that happened, and
Speaker 3: she was the most beautiful human being. She had more
Speaker 3: than one hundred and thirty thousand dollars worth of debt
Speaker 3: taken out in her name. And it's an interesting conversation.
Speaker 3: Sorry to completely like sidestep this, but I think it's
Speaker 3: so relevant. But when we spoke to her, I think
Speaker 3: a lot of people would have been listening along, going,
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, go to the police, get rid of it, like,
Speaker 3: you know, put it all back in his name. And
Speaker 3: when we spoke to her, she said, look, I'm just
Speaker 3: so over it. I made a plan and I paid
Speaker 3: all of that debt off on my own because I
Speaker 3: just didn't want to have to go through the trauma
Speaker 3: of you know, getting through that. You see it a lot,
Speaker 3: But I feel like a lot of us would be
Speaker 3: listening to this and going, well, that's not the right
Speaker 3: thing to do. You should definitely seek help, and you
Speaker 3: should seek help, We should get support but the person
Speaker 3: who knows best is the person in that situation. It's
Speaker 3: often like when you hear about an abusive situation, you go, well, Caroline,
Speaker 3: why didn't you just leave? It's not the answer, Like
Speaker 3: often the answer needs to come from how that person
Speaker 3: feels the safest and how that person you know, thinks
Speaker 3: that they are. The other person might react because it's
Speaker 3: all about staying safe and putting yourself in the best
Speaker 3: possible position. And sometimes that looks a lot different to
Speaker 3: what people might think is the best thing. And that's
Speaker 3: what we say, right, So, going back to misconceptions, that's
Speaker 3: another great misconception, right, Well, why didn't you just leave
Speaker 3: when you found out about it or when they denied
Speaker 3: your access to money? Why didn't you leave at that point?
Speaker 3: And it's really not that simple. There are so many
Speaker 3: hurdles to leaving an abusive relationship. I mean, even if
Speaker 3: you think about, you know, a relationship breakdown of a
Speaker 3: healthy relationship, once you combine money with your partner, it's
Speaker 3: incredibly difficult to disentangle who owns what, who gets what
Speaker 3: share of what, And that's in a healthy relationship. You
Speaker 3: then add sort of layers of coercive control threats, intimidation,
Speaker 3: you know, fear of retribution, and it becomes incredibly difficult
Speaker 3: to see a pathway out, especially where financial abuse you know,
Speaker 3: is concerned, or if you've got dependence, because how do
Speaker 3: you leave if you don't have your own bank account?
Speaker 3: How do you leave if the only access to money
Speaker 3: that you have is in a joint account that your
Speaker 3: partner or ex partner has The only card to leaving
Speaker 3: is easy if you've got money, but if your money
Speaker 3: is being controlled, it becomes even harder for you to
Speaker 3: leave because you are so tangled up and interdependent with
Speaker 3: that person on finances that often it seems like there
Speaker 3: is no safe way out. So yeah, it's definitely not
Speaker 3: as easy as as just leaving even when you see
Speaker 3: some of these red flags and there's a few, right
Speaker 3: you know, and they also depend on your background, so
Speaker 3: you know, if you are from a migrant and refugee background,
Speaker 3: that becomes harder still, right, and we see cases across
Speaker 3: the bank and banking industry of the weaponization of everything
Speaker 3: from visas, So if you over to this country and
Speaker 3: you're not on a permanent residence visa or you don't
Speaker 3: have citizenship, your visa status becomes another way that someone
Speaker 3: can exert control over you. You know, if you don't do
Speaker 3: what I say, then I'm going to report you to
Speaker 3: the authorities, or I'm going to withdraw financial support for
Speaker 3: your visa. And that's terrifying, absolutely, Like that's terrifying because
Speaker 3: often you've left that circumstance because it's dangerous in the
Speaker 3: first place, and now you're in a dangerous one here
Speaker 3: and you're just a rock and a hard place because
Speaker 3: you don't want to go home, but you also don't want.
Speaker 4: To be where you are, like and then you add
Speaker 4: language barriers to that and cultural barriers, like you know,
Speaker 4: I think people find it difficult to navigate the financial system,
Speaker 4: you know, in Western countries, even if you're born and.
Speaker 3: Grow up here.
Speaker 4: You then add, you know, people who were born overseas
Speaker 4: and who have very different financial systems from the one
Speaker 4: that we have in Australia. You know, a lot of
Speaker 4: people don't know the difference between debit and credit. So
Speaker 4: we say, oh, we just make sure you don't sign
Speaker 4: anything that you don't understand. But if someone's explaining something
Speaker 4: to you and they're your partner and they're saying, well,
Speaker 4: this is what it is and they're not being truthful,
Speaker 4: or that you don't have an understanding of the difference
Speaker 4: between debit and credit. You know, that then becomes even
Speaker 4: harder for people as well.
Speaker 3: And that to me is the most heartbreaking part about
Speaker 3: it because often, and you know, as you were saying before,
Speaker 3: everyone can experience financial abuse, but sadly it's predominantly women.
Speaker 3: But often as women, we go, oh, they would know better,
Speaker 3: or yeah, I don't really understand that, and I don't
Speaker 3: really want to put my hand up because it's a
Speaker 3: bit embarrassing that I don't know the difference between that.
Speaker 3: When it's not embarrassing, it's a language you've never learned,
Speaker 3: it's a conversation you've never had. Why would you know?
Speaker 3: But to me, I just go, this is where the
Speaker 3: power of financial literacy comes into it, having an understanding of,
Speaker 3: you know, what these things are at a base level.
Speaker 3: I often talk on our show about how if you
Speaker 3: want to live in a relationship where your partner does
Speaker 3: all the fine and it's things because it's just not
Speaker 3: for you. I love that for you, but what I
Speaker 3: want you to do is be fully able to always
Speaker 3: access those accounts. They want you to be able to
Speaker 3: know how to pay a bill when it comes time
Speaker 3: to being able to do that. So many times I
Speaker 3: have sat down with women who I had one particular
Speaker 3: case where this woman was incredibly wealthy. Her partner was
Speaker 3: worth millions, but she didn't understand a thing. All she
Speaker 3: knew was that she had an AMEX and a credit
Speaker 3: card and he paid it off every month, and she
Speaker 3: was the stay at home mum of their five kids,
Speaker 3: and they had a very, very nice life. But when
Speaker 3: it came time to leaving that relationship, she had no
Speaker 3: idea how. And it wasn't financially abusive, but the finances
Speaker 3: were what was constraining her. And I sat down and said, okay, cool,
Speaker 3: where are your bank accounts? So she's like THEE, I
Speaker 3: don't know. I don't even know if we have bank accounts,
Speaker 3: you know, with CBA or with NAB or with you know,
Speaker 3: one of the other banks. Like I wouldn't have a clue.
Speaker 3: All I know is that I put all our expenses
Speaker 3: on this credit card and it gets paid off. And
Speaker 3: so it was like starting from absolute scratch. So this
Speaker 3: type of conversation and financial abuse isn't just for people
Speaker 3: who don't have lots of money and are controlled by it.
Speaker 3: In that way, money can be controlling at any level,
Speaker 3: and I think that that's something that's also a massive
Speaker 3: misconception that financial abuse is a problem when you don't
Speaker 3: have lots of money.
Speaker 4: No, it's definitely. We see it across all different socioeconomic backgrounds.
Speaker 4: You can have private bank accounts and a private banker
Speaker 4: and still be at risk of financial abuse. And sometimes
Speaker 4: the more assets and the more money that you have,
Speaker 4: the greater the risk. Right, because while most perpetrators are
Speaker 4: not actually driven by the money, just to say they're
Speaker 4: driven by using money to control someone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they don't actually care about the dollars. They care
Speaker 3: about the fact that they've still got you under their
Speaker 3: thumb and they want to be able to do that.
Speaker 3: And yeah, it's disgusting. And I think that it's really
Speaker 3: adrob Or how much work you're doing in this space.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's your entire career. And to me, the
Speaker 3: just it speaks volumes that a bank would employ someone
Speaker 3: to do this to make sure that we're okay. It
Speaker 3: makes me really happy that this is something that we're
Speaker 3: working more on. If we're listening to this and going
Speaker 3: through this, maybe ourselves and we're like, oh, that's a
Speaker 3: couple of red flags that have come up. I'm feeling
Speaker 3: a bit uncomfortable. Or you're maybe going, oh, that's a friend,
Speaker 3: or that's a family member, or that's you know, someone
Speaker 3: I work with. How do we start to help ourselves? Like,
Speaker 3: where can we access help? What are things that we
Speaker 3: can do for ourselves that put us in the best
Speaker 3: possible position for ourselves or for you know, our community.
Speaker 4: Firstly, I'd say just like to acknowledge that anyone experiencing
Speaker 4: financial abuse, you know, it can feel very frightening and isolating.
Speaker 4: So if you know, and perpetrators will deliberately cut off
Speaker 4: access often to your friends and families to create that
Speaker 4: sense of isolation and that sense of dependency on some
Speaker 4: someone else. So if you think you are experiencing financial abuse,
Speaker 4: you recognize any of these signs of abuse, it's often
Speaker 4: really helpful to have a conversation with someone you trust
Speaker 4: to start with, even before you think about going to
Speaker 4: any specialist services, because experiencing this form of abuse is real.
Speaker 4: And if you're told that you're paranoid or that you're
Speaker 4: making things up, or you know, I'm just managing the money,
Speaker 4: because it's in your best interest and I'm doing what's
Speaker 4: right for you. You can end up second guessing or
Speaker 4: questioning yourself and saying, well, actually, maybe it's not that bad, right,
Speaker 4: but it is. So i'd say, first and foremost, trust yourself.
Speaker 4: Trust what you're experiencing is real, and it's really crucial
Speaker 4: at that time to sort of get as many people
Speaker 4: around you a support people around you as possible, and
Speaker 4: it can be as simple as having a conversation. So
Speaker 4: the same goes if you know someone experiencing financial abuse,
Speaker 4: don't be scared to have a conversation with them. You
Speaker 4: don't need to have all of the answers, you don't
Speaker 4: need to be an expert in financial abuse. You just
Speaker 4: have to have a gentle conversation and encourage someone to
Speaker 4: get the support that they need. And that conversation could
Speaker 4: be a conversation that changes someone's life. So don't be
Speaker 4: too scared to sort of reach out and have that
Speaker 4: conversation if you're experiencing financial abuse, first and foremost. If
Speaker 4: you're not feeling safe, always cultriple zero. As you said
Speaker 4: at the beginning of this show. The other service that
Speaker 4: we always recommend is as you mentioned, one eight hundred respect,
Speaker 4: And the reason that we do that is because there
Speaker 4: are a lot of support services available across Australia and
Speaker 4: they may be regional, they may be state based, you know,
Speaker 4: they may be national services, and it can be very
Speaker 4: overwhelming to try and identify what service is the right
Speaker 4: service for you. So one eight hundred respect will be
Speaker 4: able to give you information about your local services. They
Speaker 4: also have you know, translating and interpreting services available if
Speaker 4: English isn't your first language, to help you navigate those systems.
Speaker 3: And they're beautiful human beings as well. I think something
Speaker 3: that when you know, I don't know, I feel like
Speaker 3: it's a hurdle for a lot of people, especially in
Speaker 3: conversations I've had where if we sat down and you
Speaker 3: were explaining to me that you were going through this situation,
Speaker 3: I said, oh, Caroline, I actually think you should call
Speaker 3: Why nine hundred respect. You might go I don't know them,
Speaker 3: I don't know what they're going to say. I don't
Speaker 3: know if they're going to be judgmental. But these are
Speaker 3: beautiful human beings who dedicate their lives to helping you,
Speaker 3: like that's their entire passion. Like you don't get a
Speaker 3: job at one eight hundred respect because you aren't interested
Speaker 3: in putting people in a better situation. But also they're
Speaker 3: trained to help you identify one what you're going through,
Speaker 3: but to the services you need. And even if you
Speaker 3: don't know what you need, just calling and saying, hey,
Speaker 3: I really don't know what I need, but I think
Speaker 3: I need something, they might be able to put you
Speaker 3: in the best possible position. And they're also a brilliant
Speaker 3: person or a brilliant group to reach out to when
Speaker 3: you just don't feel like you want to have a
Speaker 3: conversation with someone in real life, Like maybe you don't
Speaker 3: you're not ready to open up to your best friend
Speaker 3: about this because these things can feel overwhelming and they
Speaker 3: aren't embarrassing. I promise you are so smart and you
Speaker 3: are so educated. It's just something you don't understand. But
Speaker 3: I think that it's so important to remember that you
Speaker 3: can reach out to these people and maybe and even
Speaker 3: have a conversation about, Hey, I just want to have
Speaker 3: a quick chat about like what I might be able
Speaker 3: to do. I'm not ready to do it, but I
Speaker 3: might be able to do it. And also how do
Speaker 3: I bring it up with my friend if we go
Speaker 3: out to coffee, Like those are things that these people
Speaker 3: can help you with. And I think so often we
Speaker 3: just think that things will get really serious if I
Speaker 3: make that call. Everything is on your terms, it's not
Speaker 3: on their terms. And as you were saying before, Caroline,
Speaker 3: you can tell the bank about what's going on and
Speaker 3: say please don't do anything about it, like the power
Speaker 3: is in your hands. And I think that when we're
Speaker 3: going through something like this, we often think that the
Speaker 3: power is going to be stripped from us if we
Speaker 3: reach out to somebody else, because they might quote no better.
Speaker 3: But you are the one who knows the best about
Speaker 3: this situation, and every single resource is going to be
Speaker 3: used based on how you think it's going to work
Speaker 3: for you, not how somebody else thinks it's going to be.
Speaker 3: You know the best. They're not going to swoop in
Speaker 3: and change things. They're going to actually help you and
Speaker 3: put you in the best possible position. And I think
Speaker 3: that's so important to understand. So, Caroline, are there any
Speaker 3: other ways that we can reach out? You know, whether
Speaker 3: we are victim survivors of financial abuse, or we are
Speaker 3: trying to help our friends and family or people around us.
Speaker 3: We've got one eight hundred respects. I know that CBA
Speaker 3: has a brilliant offering. How do we get in contact
Speaker 3: with CBA and are there any other resources that we
Speaker 3: should know about?
Speaker 4: Absolutely? Look, CBA has a program called Next Chapter and
Speaker 4: that comprises of a number of things, including a team
Speaker 4: of banking specialists. And they're not trained counselors. They are
Speaker 4: specialists in safe banking options. Now, as we were talking
Speaker 4: about earlier, we extended that support not just as CBA
Speaker 4: customers but to anyone across Australia, regardless of who you banquet,
Speaker 4: and they really can help you understand, you know, how
Speaker 4: to secure your banking. They can also make referrals to
Speaker 4: specialist financial organizations, such as a partnership that we have
Speaker 4: with Good Shepherds called the Financial Independence Hub. Now that
Speaker 4: might not be right for everyone, but they offer long
Speaker 4: term financial counseling to help you re establish your independence
Speaker 4: once you're safe. So they're not a crisis support service,
Speaker 4: but they are available to help you do things like
Speaker 4: separate you know, finances to budgets, to provide long term
Speaker 4: financial counseling options to help you really, you know, understand
Speaker 4: your finances and get back on track again.
Speaker 3: Good Shepherd are gorgeous as well. I've done some work
Speaker 3: with them historically, and I don't think a lot of
Speaker 3: people know who they are or what they do. But
Speaker 3: they essentially enable personal agency capability and confidence to you know,
Speaker 3: help you lead really dignified outcomes when it comes to income,
Speaker 3: financial health, and wellbeing. And they run you know, financial
Speaker 3: literacy workshops and they talk about how to set up
Speaker 3: your banking if you're starting from scratch or even they have.
Speaker 4: A NILLS I was gonna say great NILS program.
Speaker 3: They have a NILS program, so it's no interest loans,
Speaker 3: so if you find yourself in a pickle, they can
Speaker 3: help you either refinance alone that you have and you're
Speaker 3: struggling with. But NILS is a null interest loan, and
Speaker 3: you know often there's a lot of like criteria you
Speaker 3: will need to meet for this. It's not like, oh, hey,
Speaker 3: I would love a no interest loan because same, but
Speaker 3: it's more for getting you out of financially pressing situations
Speaker 3: or making sure that you have access to things that
Speaker 3: you need. But as you're saying, they're not an emergency service,
Speaker 3: but they are a beautiful service to know about. I'm
Speaker 3: obsessed with them, Like the idea that they exist is
Speaker 3: so so nice. But that alongside next chapter, I think
Speaker 3: a really good team of people to put you in
Speaker 3: the best possible position.
Speaker 4: The only other one I'd probably reference again is if
Speaker 4: you're in the e LGBTIK plus sort of Rainbow community.
Speaker 4: Full Stop Australia run a dedicated phone service which is
Speaker 4: called the Rainbow Sexual, Domestic and Family Violence Helpline. Now
Speaker 4: they are trained and they are a safe service for
Speaker 4: people in the community and really understand the unique needs
Speaker 4: of people in the community when seeking support for farmin
Speaker 4: and domestic violence, so they're also a great resource to
Speaker 4: refer to as well.
Speaker 3: I love that. Oh my gosh, I'm going to make
Speaker 3: sure you guys don't have to take notes. I'm going
Speaker 3: to make sure that all of those resources outlined in
Speaker 3: our show notes with links so that it makes it
Speaker 3: as easy as possible. But Caroline, it has been so
Speaker 3: beautiful having this conversation with you. I feel like it's
Speaker 3: the right step in the right direction when it comes
Speaker 3: to hoping to end financial abuse. The work that you
Speaker 3: do is so special and I think it would be
Speaker 3: really taxing on you as well to be diving every
Speaker 3: single day into this situation. But you're putting so many
Speaker 3: people in better positions. I'm so grateful that we have
Speaker 3: you in our community and get to share you with everyone.
Speaker 3: But we'll have you on the show again at some point,
Speaker 3: hopefully to talk a little bit deeper about this topic,
Speaker 3: because I think it's something that we really need to
Speaker 3: deeply understand. But thank you for joining us. It's been
Speaker 3: a pleasure, and I know that our community is so
Speaker 3: much better off having had this chat. The advice shared
Speaker 3: on She's on the Money is general in nature and
Speaker 3: does not consider your individual circumstances. She's on the Money
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Speaker 3: upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you
Speaker 3: do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS
Speaker 3: TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs.
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