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Speaker 1: Hello.

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Speaker 2: My name's Santasha Nabananga Bamblet. I'm a proud your the

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Speaker 2: Order Kerni Wholbury and a waddery woman. And before we

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Speaker 2: get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would

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Speaker 2: like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of

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Speaker 2: which this podcast is recorded on a wondery country, acknowledging

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Speaker 2: the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through

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Speaker 2: as this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and

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Speaker 2: the storytelling of you to make a difference for today

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Speaker 2: and lasting impact for tomorrow. Let's get into it.

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Speaker 3: She's on the Money, She's on the Money.

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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to She's on the Money causer millennials

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Speaker 1: who want financial freedom. I'm your host, Victoria Devine, and

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Speaker 1: today we're shining a light on an often hidden form

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Speaker 1: of domestic violence, financial abuse. We are joined by a

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Speaker 1: woman whose life work is all about identifying and ending

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Speaker 1: financial abuse. Her name is Caroline Wall and she's from

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Speaker 1: the Commonwealth Bank. Caroline, Welcome to the show. I'm actually

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Speaker 1: very excited to have you here because this is something

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Speaker 1: we need to be breaking open so much more often.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: No of course, before we get into I have a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions. But before we get into all of

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Speaker 1: those questions, I did just want to give this episode

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Speaker 1: a content warning. I know that our topic is financial abuse,

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Speaker 1: but I did want to let you know that for

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Speaker 1: immediate crisis support relating to domestic violence or sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: you can also call one eight hundred respect and in

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Speaker 1: an emergency or if you're not feeling safe, please always

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Speaker 1: call Triple zero. But today we are talking at out

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Speaker 1: recognizing the signs of financial abuse, how it presents in relationships,

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Speaker 1: where to access help, and what different services can be

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Speaker 1: provided in so much more. But first, Caroline, I'm very

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Speaker 1: excited to have you here because I want to know

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Speaker 1: so much more about your work. I know you've worked

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Speaker 1: in this space for a very long time. Tell me

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Speaker 1: about how long you've worked in this space and what

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Speaker 1: led you to I guess have this as a passion

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Speaker 1: for your entire career.

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Speaker 4: Thank you. I've worked in the area of customer vulnerability

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Speaker 4: for close on ten years now. I work at the

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Speaker 4: moment in a team of specialists that really represent the

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Speaker 4: voice of a customer inside a large financial institution, and

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Speaker 4: to make sure that we're working with community organizations to

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Speaker 4: make sure people's voices are heard and understood and that

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Speaker 4: they're treated fairly when trying to under access and undertake

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Speaker 4: their banking. One of my key focus areas is very

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Speaker 4: much family and domestic violence and a notion of financial

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Speaker 4: abuse and trying to understand how banking products and banking

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Speaker 4: services can be misused or weaponized by perpetrators of family

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Speaker 4: and domestic violence, to make sure that we're considering ways

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Speaker 4: to develop products in a way that really centers the

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Speaker 4: safety of our customers into the product's design. By this space, SCOSH,

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Speaker 4: financial abuse and family and domestic violence continues to be

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Speaker 4: one of the most significant challenges that we face as

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Speaker 4: a society today. And I was really drawn to working

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Speaker 4: in this area back around twenty fifteen when our organization

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Speaker 4: started to look at the issues surrounding domestic violence and

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Speaker 4: financial abuse to understand the role that finances often play

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Speaker 4: in keeping people trapped in abusive relationships.

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Speaker 1: And it's wild that that, you know, even in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four, is so prevalent, Like it breaks my heart.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it is a massive privilege to be

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Speaker 1: leading the She's on the Money community, Like it's literally

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Speaker 1: my favorite thing in the entire world. But one of

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Speaker 1: the really heartbreaking parts of She's on the Money is

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Speaker 1: I'm often a very trusted human that if you're experiencing

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Speaker 1: financial abuse and don't really know what that looks like

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Speaker 1: or how that works, I get an influx of messages.

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Speaker 1: So sadly I know a lot about this, having worked

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Speaker 1: in financial advice and worked in this space, I just

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Speaker 1: feel that it is so much more prevalent, but we

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Speaker 1: don't seem to understand fully what that looks like. Caroline,

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Speaker 1: how did you fall into the space of customer vulnerability?

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Speaker 1: What did that look like? Because I know you've been

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Speaker 1: in it for ten plus years, but you know, do

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Speaker 1: you finish university and go all right, well, I'd really

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Speaker 1: like to work in this space or is it something

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Speaker 1: like how do you get into this area of work?

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Speaker 4: The great question that there's no degree that I'm aware

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Speaker 4: of that is custom of vulnerability.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm asking you don't go to UNI for this.

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Speaker 4: My background is actually philosophy in politics, so not particularly

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Speaker 4: relevant to the work that I'm doing today.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it is people who do philosophy and politics. You

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Speaker 1: know what those people do? They care a lot like

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Speaker 1: you don't study philosophy or politics. If you don't want

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Speaker 1: to instigate change, do you.

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Speaker 4: That's true, and I've always been interested, as you say,

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Speaker 4: in instigating change through a series of roles. Starting out

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Speaker 4: in investor relations, so looking at corporate social responsibilities sort

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Speaker 4: of how big companies can do good. Spent a number

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Speaker 4: of years sort of working in that space and examining,

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Speaker 4: you know, shareholder activism and environmental and social governance for

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Speaker 4: big companies, and from there ended up over in Australia

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Speaker 4: about ten years ago. Case you can't tell from my

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Speaker 4: accent I am English. That's not a strong and despite

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Speaker 4: ten years, I still can't get quite rid of the

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Speaker 4: British twang. But started working for a bank over here

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Speaker 4: in Australia and it was round about the time that

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Speaker 4: a new banking Code of Practice came into effect which

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Speaker 4: really started to introduce some social policy for banks to consider.

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Speaker 1: So the role of supporting.

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Speaker 4: Customers who, due to their personal or situational circumstances, may

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Speaker 4: have challenges accessing banking. You know, for the majority of people,

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Speaker 4: using digital banking is not an issue, or going to

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Speaker 4: your local branches not an issue, but for some people

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Speaker 4: they can face really challenging barriers to maintaining their banking

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Speaker 4: and so I started to work in that space to

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Speaker 4: understand the role of financial institutions and making it easier

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Speaker 4: for people to access what is essentially an essential service.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel like this space is really misunderstood

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Speaker 1: as well. We've been trying to do, you know, over

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Speaker 1: the years that she's on, The Money has existed a

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Speaker 1: lot of work to educate people on what financial abuse

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Speaker 1: looks like. And we have been so privileged to have

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Speaker 1: money diarists come on the show that say I've experienced

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Speaker 1: this or you know, this is you know, my reality,

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Speaker 1: or I've gotten out of this, and it's really inspiring

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Speaker 1: to see that. But I think that has opened my

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Speaker 1: eyes up and our community's eyes up to the idea

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Speaker 1: that financial abuse isn't just your partner abusing you know,

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Speaker 1: the system, or abusing you through money. We've seen, you know,

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Speaker 1: people come on the show and talk about how they're

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Speaker 1: being financially abused by parent. We've seen people who have

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Speaker 1: lost money through cousins abusing them financially. So I want

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Speaker 1: to kind of talk to you about what you believe

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Speaker 1: are the biggest misconceptions about financial abuse. What does that

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Speaker 1: actually look like because I think so many times, especially

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Speaker 1: if we have the privilege of never having experienced that,

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Speaker 1: we just don't assume, like we just don't get it,

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Speaker 1: and it's not really the reality of this situation, right.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think you know, there are a lot

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Speaker 4: of misconceptions around what financial abuse is, but also what

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Speaker 4: it isn't. It's very much a hidden epidemic still, certainly

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Speaker 4: you know in Australia and probably globally as well, which

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Speaker 4: really just means it's not very well understood. There's an

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Speaker 4: estimated ninety percent of people who seek support for other

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Speaker 4: forms of family and domestic violence who also say that

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Speaker 4: they've been affected by financial law what's sometimes called economic abuse.

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Speaker 4: Yet people just don't recognize the science, and that's because

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Speaker 4: there's just a lack of awareness about what it is.

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Speaker 4: So when you talk about someone restricting or accessing another

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Speaker 4: person's access to money, be that their partner or a

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Speaker 4: family member, we might view them as sort of being

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Speaker 4: a bit of a bad actor or acting in an

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Speaker 4: inappropriate way, but we rarely, very rarely think about it

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Speaker 4: as a form of actual abuse. Yet it really is

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Speaker 4: a form of family and domestic violence. And so how

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Speaker 4: do we dispel some of the misconceptions, right, because there's

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Speaker 4: nothing wrong with one person in a relationship managing money, right,

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Speaker 4: Let's be clear about that. That in itself is not

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Speaker 4: financial abuse. But if one person is managing all of

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Speaker 4: the money in a relationship but not consulting with the

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Speaker 4: other person and that they don't have a say in

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Speaker 4: that decision, that then becomes a potentially abusive situation. And

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Speaker 4: so what we're really looking at here is someone deliberately

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Speaker 4: using money or other resources to gain power and control

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Speaker 4: over someone else. It's all about the power dynamic between individuals.

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Speaker 4: So that could be you know, not being allowed to

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Speaker 4: be able to make decisions about how your household income

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Speaker 4: is spent. It could be being denied money for basic expenses.

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Speaker 4: It could be being forced to take out alone in

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Speaker 4: your name. And the reason that we often use a

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Speaker 4: term perpetrator or user of violence is because it's not

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Speaker 4: an accident. You know, We're not talking about someone accidentally

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Speaker 4: using the joint account for a large personal expense. We're

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Speaker 4: talking about a choice that one person makes to use

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Speaker 4: money to control their partner or ex partner. And I

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Speaker 4: think probably the last thing, you know, common misconception is

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Speaker 4: that it's just women who can experience financial abuse. It

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Speaker 4: is largely a gendered issue, which means, you know, women

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Speaker 4: are predominantly affected, but you know, men can be affected

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Speaker 4: by financial abuse too, And certainly we know that people

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Speaker 4: in the LGBTQA plus community, people in same sex relationships

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Speaker 4: are in fact even more likely to be impacted by

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Speaker 4: financial abuse than people in heterosexual relationships. And I think

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Speaker 4: that's not known, and so a lot of men who

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Speaker 4: may experience this form of abuse kind of minimize it

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Speaker 4: and don't realize it's an issue because we just don't

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Speaker 4: speak about it.

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Speaker 1: It's really heartbreaking, actually, because when I have conversations in

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Speaker 1: our communities, sometimes they just start off as what, you know,

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Speaker 1: the person messaging me, my assume is relatively innocent, and

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Speaker 1: they'll say, oh, hey, they I was just wondering, like

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Speaker 1: my boyfriend does X, Y and Z, and I was

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Speaker 1: just wondering, like is this normal? Or should I ask

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Speaker 1: him in a different way? Or he doesn't let me

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Speaker 1: have access to my money because he says that I'm

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Speaker 1: really bad at it, and I just I don't think

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Speaker 1: I'm that bad at And you kind of have to

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Speaker 1: dig a little bit deeper, ask a few questions, and

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Speaker 1: then it's really hard to say, hey, I don't know

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Speaker 1: how to tell you this in you know, a lighter way.

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Speaker 1: But what's occurring is actually financial abuse and we need

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Speaker 1: to deal with that. And I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: the time that can be really fronting because we have

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Speaker 1: this misconception in our head that abuse is physical or

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Speaker 1: it's verbal, not that it could be financial. I think

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Speaker 1: to us, you just go, no, that's not it, like

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Speaker 1: he's just better at money, or you know, he thinks

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Speaker 1: he's better at money, and you just don't consider how

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Speaker 1: that works. And I just think, to me, that's heartbreaking

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Speaker 1: and sadly it is nothing new. Can we talk about

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Speaker 1: I guess how the modern world? I feel so old

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Speaker 1: saying that. But how does technology play into this? Because

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Speaker 1: I feel like historically it was, you know, you got

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Speaker 1: your pay sleep and you went home and a lot

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Speaker 1: of things were done in cash and you might not

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Speaker 1: have had cash. But it's also a technological issue these days.

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Speaker 1: What role has technology been playing in making things, sadly

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Speaker 1: more prevalent?

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Speaker 4: Technology has many advantages and I sure we'll get onto

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Speaker 4: that in a moment, but with sort of the rise

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Speaker 4: and increase in digital banking, and other forms of technology

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Speaker 4: comes new forms of abuse. I would say is that

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Speaker 4: users of violence or perpetrators are very very smart at

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Speaker 4: understanding and using technology in a way that it was

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Speaker 4: never intended or designed to be used and to control, track, stock,

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Speaker 4: and intimidate people. So there's a whole new term, right

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Speaker 4: that's called technology facilitated abuse, which speaks specifically to how

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Speaker 4: technology can be used as a form of controlling behavior.

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Speaker 4: Now that's sort of broader than just the banking or

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Speaker 4: financial context, so it can include everything from forbidding someone

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Speaker 4: from having a mobile phone, limiting who they can contact.

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Speaker 4: It could be making continuous or controlling threats, or phone

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Speaker 4: calls to someone or text messages with the sole purpose

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Speaker 4: of sort of harassing or stalking them. We see instances

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Speaker 4: of people being forced to take photos of where they are,

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Speaker 4: to disclose their location to prove that they are when

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Speaker 4: they say they are, also surveillance and stalking, and I

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Speaker 4: think that's one of the primary concerns from a banking

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Speaker 4: and tech perspective that we have and a lot of

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Speaker 4: people seeking help for other forms of family and domestic violence,

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Speaker 4: A very high percentage of those individuals when they go

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Speaker 4: into a safe house, or they seek support from a

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Speaker 4: community organization, discover that there is some sort of surveillance

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Speaker 4: technology on either their phone or their car. Now, when

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Speaker 4: it comes to banking, that can be particularly dangerous because

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Speaker 4: if someone's got access to your phone, they also have

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Speaker 4: access to your online banking. So even if you follow

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Speaker 4: all the steps that a financial institution will tell you

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Speaker 4: to do to secure your banking, like changing your passwords

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Speaker 4: or using different types of multi factor authentication, if someone

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Speaker 4: has spyware on your device and you don't know it,

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Speaker 4: you can change your password as many times as you want,

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Speaker 4: and that person is still going to be able to

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Speaker 4: access your finances or your location. Some recent really disturbing

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Speaker 4: trends of people misusing what we call the transaction field

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Speaker 4: in a banking transfer. So if I were to send

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Speaker 4: you money, I've seen this in our community. It's wild, absolutely,

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Speaker 4: and it's not the kind of terminology you'd expect, right,

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Speaker 4: So not only people using profanity in those description fields,

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Speaker 4: which you know is relatively easy to block, it's very

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Speaker 4: nuanced language that is relevant only to the person receiving it.

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Speaker 4: So you know, have you checked that the dogs are

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Speaker 4: still outside today?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 4: Might just seem like an innocent question, you know to

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Speaker 4: most people, but if you know that your partner or

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Speaker 4: ex partner has made threats against the safety of your animals,

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Speaker 4: that then becomes a really intimidating message to receive. And

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Speaker 4: you know, we review, I think in my team alone,

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Speaker 4: about fifteen hundred high risk cases a year where we're

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Speaker 4: concerned about the safety of the individuals, and in most

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Speaker 4: of those cases there may be you know, anti violence

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Speaker 4: orders in place against the person, no contact order. Now,

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Speaker 4: you can change your address, you can change your phone number,

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Speaker 4: you can block someone off social media. Interestingly, one of

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Speaker 4: the things that you actually can't do is stop someone

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Speaker 4: from sending you money if they have your BSB an

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Speaker 4: account number. And you know, in intimate partner relationships, it

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Speaker 4: could be that you have children together, right, and you

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Speaker 4: need child support payments, and if the only way to

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Speaker 4: get child support payments is for those payments to come

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Speaker 4: from your partner or ex partner, then you are leaving

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Speaker 4: them an open field of communication to be able to

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Speaker 4: send you know, harassing, stalking, or threatening messages. So that's

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Speaker 4: just one way that we see technology increasing the risk

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Speaker 4: for people experiencing some forms of financial abuse.

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Speaker 1: What do we do if we're in that situation. I've

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Speaker 1: seen it pop up a couple of times in our community.

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Speaker 1: And for those of you who thankfully might not know

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about, we sometimes see people who have

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Speaker 1: been blocked on every single account and they can't call you,

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Speaker 1: they can't message you, they don't have your email, they

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Speaker 1: don't have your address. They'll transfer one cent with threatening messages,

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Speaker 1: and we've seen it where it's hundreds of messages a day,

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Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes just a message here and there to let

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Speaker 1: you know that they're still around. And it's a very

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Speaker 1: large form of abuse. But what can we do, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: Because I feel like in those situations, a lot of

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Speaker 1: people throw their hands up and go, I'm helpless here,

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Speaker 1: like I don't know what to do now, like I

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Speaker 1: thought I'd done absolutely everything I could. Who do we

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Speaker 1: talk to? What do we do? Where do we go?

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Speaker 2: Yet?

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Speaker 4: Great, great question, And it depends on the situation you're on.

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Speaker 4: And what I would say to anyone experiencing any form

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Speaker 4: of financial abuse or other forms of abuse is you're

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Speaker 4: the one who knows your situation the best right and

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Speaker 4: what is safe for you to do. If it's not

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Speaker 4: safe for you to take action, then obviously you need

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Speaker 4: to be you know, make that decision yourself. If you

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Speaker 4: don't need money from the person who's sending you abuse,

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Speaker 4: you can contact your bank. Most banks now across Australia

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Speaker 4: have programs in place to help people experiencing this form

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Speaker 4: of abuse, So I'd say first and foremost approach your

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Speaker 4: bank can tell them what's happening. There are some circumstances

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Speaker 4: where actually you may want those descriptions as evidence of

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Speaker 4: a breach of an anti violence order right and if

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Speaker 4: that's the case, you might not want them to stop

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Speaker 4: because that might be the only evidence that you have

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Speaker 4: that your perpetrator is trying to contact you in breaching

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Speaker 4: and AVIO. So in those cases, you can still let

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Speaker 4: your bank know just what you're experiencing, but that you

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Speaker 4: don't want any action taken for the time being because

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Speaker 4: you are using that as evidence of part of a

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Speaker 4: broader police investigation. If you do want that abuse to stop,

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Speaker 4: there's a couple of options. Most banks can set up

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Speaker 4: what's called safe bank accounts, which is a brand new

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Speaker 4: bank account with a different you know, BSB and account number.

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Speaker 4: You can also look at getting an account number where

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Speaker 4: the BSB doesn't show your location. So for many people

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Speaker 4: don't know the BSB code before your account number at

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Speaker 4: stands for whatever branch your account is opened in. So

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Speaker 4: if you've opened an account in person, there is a

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Speaker 4: unique code which you'll tell you you know where that

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Speaker 4: account is, like home to your domicel too.

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Speaker 1: That's so smart. That's something I literally never thought about.

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Speaker 1: And I know that my BSB is my local bank

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Speaker 1: account or like my local suburb of where my parents live,

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Speaker 1: because that's where I opened my first bank account when

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Speaker 1: I got my first job, and I hadn't thought about it.

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Speaker 4: But it can disclose your location. Yeah, so especially if

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Speaker 4: you've moved and you want to keep your address a

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Speaker 4: secret and you don't want someone to know what area

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Speaker 4: you're living in. You can open your account online. So

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Speaker 4: most of the time when you open an account online,

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Speaker 4: depending on your bank, you get a digital BSB which

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Speaker 4: can't be tracked to a particular location as opposed to

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Speaker 4: doing it in a branch.

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Speaker 1: That's really smart.

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Speaker 4: If your tech is being surveiled and you do need

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Speaker 4: to go to a branch, let them know and they

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Speaker 4: can open one, often with a different BSB that you

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Speaker 4: might be Victoria or in Queensland, so that you know

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Speaker 4: you can't be tracked to that location, so you consider

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Speaker 4: up a safe bank account that way, and that way

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Speaker 4: your perpetrator doesn't have your account details, so they can't

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Speaker 4: send you money. Now, that won't work if you need

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Speaker 4: money from the person, so if you do need to

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Speaker 4: keep receiving money. Unfortunately, there's a whole load of background

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Speaker 4: regulation that means your bank can't actually hide the description

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Speaker 4: that is sent with a transfer, but what they can

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Speaker 4: do is take action in many cases. So I know

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Speaker 4: at least probably about ten or more banks across Australia

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Speaker 4: will send warning letters to people who are misusing banking

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Speaker 4: platforms in this way, and they all have terms and

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Speaker 4: conditions which say it's unacceptable behavior, and so they can

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Speaker 4: send a warning letter to the person to say, look,

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Speaker 4: we've noticed in behavior on your account that's in breach

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Speaker 4: of the bank's terms and conditions. Please see so otherwise

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Speaker 4: you know, we may take further action if that continues.

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Speaker 4: I know, certainly for the bank that I work at,

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Speaker 4: we can actually remove someone's access to digital banking so

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Speaker 4: that the can't send a description with a transfer. They

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Speaker 4: can still set up an automated payment, but they don't

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Speaker 4: get the option to add that description into the description field.

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Speaker 4: And you know, in some cases, you know, if the

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Speaker 4: abuse continues and it is causing severe harm to the

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Speaker 4: victim and it's possible to do so, a bank may

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Speaker 4: actually look at closing that customer's account because it really

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Speaker 4: is no place for abuse. And you know, all of

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Speaker 4: the industry is very clear on taking a stance against

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Speaker 4: financial abuse in this way.

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Speaker 1: I really like that it's across the industry. Like I know,

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Speaker 1: when CBA approached me, and she's on the money to

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Speaker 1: work together to talk about this topic because it is

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Speaker 1: so important. One of the things that I was like

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Speaker 1: was like, look, I really want to talk about this topic,

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Speaker 1: but I don't want to align to a specific bank

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Speaker 1: on it because it's an international issue. It's not just

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Speaker 1: an issue that one bank is dealing with. I think

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Speaker 1: my favorite thing is that CBA is like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: we'll help anyone who's with any bank, Like, we're just

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Speaker 1: here out we just want to get rid of this.

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Speaker 1: Is that something one I feel like that's very different

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Speaker 1: to the way a lot of banks and a lot

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Speaker 1: of the industry work, right they go, oh, well, we

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Speaker 1: offer ABC and D for our customers. And CBA is

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Speaker 1: a bit different. They are offering this help for literally

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Speaker 1: anybody who needs it. How was that decision made, Because

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Speaker 1: that's not a small decision, that's a that's a massive undertaking.

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Speaker 4: CBA have always had a position and a lot of

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Speaker 4: the industry you have the same position, right, which is

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Speaker 4: that tackling the issue of financial abuse is not an

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Speaker 4: area of competitive advantage for the bank or for any bank.

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Speaker 4: And if we, as the largest organization at CBA in Australia,

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Speaker 4: have the resourcing data capability to be able to identify

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Speaker 4: and proactively put support measures in place, then we want

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Speaker 4: to make sure that we are sharing that with organizations

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Speaker 4: who don't have the same size and scale that we do.

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Speaker 4: And so we made a decision from everything from how

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Speaker 4: we detect this form of abuse. We use AI to

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Speaker 4: try and detect this form of abuse, which picks up

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Speaker 4: that nuance messaging that doesn't just contain profanity, right. We

408
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Speaker 4: actually put that on a platform called GitHub and made

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Speaker 4: it open source so that any bank.

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Speaker 1: Can pick up that model.

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Speaker 4: I love yeah and put it into their own data

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Speaker 4: sets to use the same sort of algorithms and the

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Speaker 4: same machine learning that we had developed over sort of

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Speaker 4: eighteen months to detect this form of abuse, and we've

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Speaker 4: had conversation with banks in England, We've had conversations with

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Speaker 4: banks in Canada who are also starting to see platforms

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Speaker 4: being misused in this way, to say, hey, look we've

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Speaker 4: done the work right. We've spent two three years looking

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Speaker 4: at this issue, developing solutions and technology to detect it.

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Speaker 4: So why don't we make that available? And the same

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Speaker 4: goes for our support services. Predominantly, you know, our specialist

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Speaker 4: family in domestic violence and financial abuse teams do support

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Speaker 4: our own customers, but you know, not every one banks

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Speaker 4: or a particular bank, or if you want a safe account.

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Speaker 4: What we also recommend, by the way, is if you

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Speaker 4: are experiencing financial abuse and you want to regain control

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00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,199
Speaker 4: of your financial independence, the best way to do that

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Speaker 4: is to set up an account that your perpetrator doesn't

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Speaker 4: bank with. So if you're a CBA customer, you know,

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Speaker 4: find a different bank, if you're with one of the

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Speaker 4: other Big four, you know, pick a different bank to

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Speaker 4: have your safe account with, just to ensure that there

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Speaker 4: is you know, absolutely no way that that person can access.

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Speaker 1: It's such a clean bay.

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Speaker 4: Get access to your banking services, so if we can

436
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 4: do anything to try and tackle the issue as an industry.

437
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 4: We're all very much in agreement that it's an industry

438
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 4: issue and that we want to work together to try

439
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 4: and solve for it.

440
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. And I just I really like

441
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 1: obviously the idea of collaboration over competition in a space

442
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: that it shouldn't even be a conversation, like it should

443
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: just be like, wow, this makes sense. But you can

444
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: also go you know, from a business perspective, right, you

445
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: would look at it and be like, well, CBA spent

446
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 1: literally millions of dollars creating this code and creating this plan,

447
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: and then they're just giving it away. I think that

448
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: says a lot to how serious they are about stamping

449
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: this out and how serious they are about, you know,

450
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: making sure that everybody has financial freedom and everybody isn't

451
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 1: constrained by this, because, I mean, abuse comes in so

452
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: many different forms, but financial abuse is something that is

453
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: really nuanced. It's really it can be quite sneaky, and

454
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 1: the people that are using financial abuse as a way

455
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: to get to their victim, you could say they are

456
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 1: very sneaky, and it does involve a lot more deep

457
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: diving than just you know, having keywords come up. So Caroline,

458
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 1: let's go to a really quick break on the flip side.

459
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: I have a few other things I want to talk

460
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: to you about, specifically around how do we identify that

461
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 1: we might be in a financial abusive relationship if we

462
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: are arming and erring, about whether that's something that we

463
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: are in, And I kind of want to know about

464
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: how we can help ourselves or help others. So guys,

465
00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: don't go anywhere, all right, guys, we are back, and

466
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: today I have the absolute privilege of having a chat

467
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: with Carolyn Wall who's from CBA, but she has devoted

468
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: her entire life's work to identifying and ending financial abuse,

469
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: which is something that I am also wildly passionate about

470
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: and think we need to give a lot more airtime

471
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 1: too that Caroline, I want to talk now about how

472
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: we identify the signs of financial abuse because they're often

473
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 1: not that clear. It's not something that you know, often

474
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 1: our friends can pick up sadly, and it's not something

475
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 1: that we often want to I would say, admit to,

476
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: because it can be really hard to admit to that

477
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: or you know, really identify that. So I want to

478
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: get into it. Now, what are the signs that someone

479
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: might be in a financially abusive relationship.

480
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 4: It's really difficult sometimes, as you said, to identify a

481
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 4: situation when you're in it, and that's especially true for

482
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,679
Speaker 4: something like financial abuse, because what we often see is

483
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 4: it's starting as what seems to be relatively innocent actions, right.

484
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 4: That could be anything from you know, a partner suggesting

485
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 4: that you open a joint account and put both of

486
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 4: your incomes into the joint account. Again, on its own,

487
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 4: not an issue, but then you know, you see, you know,

488
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 4: slightly less innocent looking requests, Well, could you just take

489
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 4: this loan out in your name because I've got bad

490
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 4: credit and they might, you know, deny me for this loan.

491
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: I'll pay it back.

492
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 4: I just you know, need you to have your name

493
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 4: on the application, or or why don't you stop working

494
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 4: so that you can take better care of the kids

495
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 4: and I'll go out and do the work, and then

496
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 4: you know, I can just give you an allowance for

497
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 4: daily expenses. While some of those individual innostances may not be,

498
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 4: you know, a problem, what we do see is escalating

499
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 4: over time. So some of the things that we would

500
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 4: consider red flags would be as I mentioned forcing someone

501
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 4: to take out debts in their own name that they're

502
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 4: getting no benefit from. We also see per portrayers taking

503
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 4: out in someone else's name without their knowledge.

504
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: Yes, we had a money diarist where that happened, and

505
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 1: she was the most beautiful human being. She had more

506
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: than one hundred and thirty thousand dollars worth of debt

507
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 1: taken out in her name. And it's an interesting conversation.

508
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: Sorry to completely like sidestep this, but I think it's

509
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: so relevant. But when we spoke to her, I think

510
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: a lot of people would have been listening along, going,

511
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, go to the police, get rid of it, like,

512
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: you know, put it all back in his name. And

513
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: when we spoke to her, she said, look, I'm just

514
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: so over it. I made a plan and I paid

515
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 1: all of that debt off on my own because I

516
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: just didn't want to have to go through the trauma of,

517
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: you know, getting through that. You see it a lot,

518
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: But I feel like a lot of us would be

519
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: listening to this and going, well, that's not the right

520
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: thing to do. You should definitely seek help, and you

521
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: should seek help, We should get support. But the person

522
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: who knows best is the person in that situation. It's

523
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: often like when you hear about an abusive situation, you go, well, Caroline,

524
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: why didn't you just leave? It's not the answer, Like

525
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: often the answer needs to come from how that person

526
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: feels the safest and how that person you know, thinks

527
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: that they are. The other person might react because it's

528
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 1: all about staying safe and putting yourself in the best

529
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: possible position. And sometimes that looks a lot different to

530
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: what people might think is the best thing. And that's

531
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: what we say, right So, going back to misconceptions, that's

532
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: another great misconception, right, Well, why didn't you just leave

533
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: when you found out about it or when they denied

534
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: your access to money? Why didn't you leave at that point?

535
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: And it's really not that simple. There are so many

536
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: hurdles to leaving an abusive relationship. I mean, even if

537
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: you think about, you know, a relationship breakdown of a

538
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: healthy relationship, once you combine money with your partner, it's

539
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult to disentangle who owns what, who gets what

540
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: share of what, And that's in a healthy relationship. You

541
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: then add sort of layers of coercive control, threats, intimidation,

542
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: you know, fear, of retribution, and it becomes incredibly difficult

543
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: to see a pathway out, especially where financial abuse you know,

544
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: is concerned, or if you've got dependence, because how do

545
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: you leave if you don't have your own bank account?

546
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: How do you leave if the only access to money

547
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: that you have is in a joint account that your

548
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: partner or ex partner has. The only card to leaving

549
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: is easy if you've got money, but if your money

550
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: is being controlled, it becomes even harder for you to

551
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: leave because you are so tangled up and interdependent with

552
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: that person on finances that often it seems like there

553
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: is no safe way out. So yeah, it's definitely not

554
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: as easy as as just leaving even when you see

555
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: some of these red flags, and there's a few, right

556
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: you know, and they also depend on your background, so

557
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: you know, if you are from a migrant and refugee background,

558
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: that becomes harder still, right, And we see cases across

559
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: the bank and banking industry of the weaponization of everything

560
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,239
Speaker 1: from visas. So if you over to this country and

561
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: you're not on a permanent residence visa or you don't

562
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: have citizenship, your visa status becomes another way that someone

563
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: can exert control over you. You know, if you don't do

564
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: what I say, then I'm going to report you to

565
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: the authorities, or I'm going to withdraw financial support for

566
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: your visa. And that's terrifying, absolutely, Like that's terrifying because

567
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: often you've left that circumstance because it's dangerous in the

568
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: first place, and now you're in a dangerous one here

569
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: and you're just a rock and a hard place because

570
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: you don't want to go home, but you also don't want.

571
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 4: To be where you are, like and then you add

572
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 4: language barriers to that and cultural barriers, like you know,

573
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 4: I think people find it difficult to navigate the financial system,

574
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 4: you know, in Western countries, even if you're born and.

575
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: Grow up here.

576
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 4: You then add, you know, people who were born overseas

577
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 4: and who have very different financial systems from the one

578
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 4: that we have in Australia. You know, a lot of

579
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 4: people don't know the difference between debit and credit. So

580
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 4: we say, oh, we just make sure you don't sign

581
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 4: anything that you don't understand. But if someone's explaining something

582
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 4: to you and they're your partner and they're saying, well,

583
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 4: this is what it is, and they're not being truthful

584
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 4: or that you don't have an understanding of the difference

585
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 4: between debit and credit. You know, that then becomes even

586
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 4: harder for people as well.

587
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: And that to me is the most heartbreaking part about

588
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,719
Speaker 1: it because often, and you know, as you were saying before,

589
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: everyone can experience financial abuse, but sadly it's predominantly women.

590
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: But often as women, we go, oh, they would know better,

591
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: or yeah, I don't really understand that, And I don't

592
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: really want to put my hand up because it's a

593
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: bit embarrassing that I don't know the difference between that.

594
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: When it's not embarrassing, it's a language you've never learned,

595
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: it's a conversation you've never had. Why would you know?

596
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: But to me, I just go This is where the

597
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: power of financial literacy comes into it, having an understanding of,

598
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: you know, what these things are at a base level.

599
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: I often talk on our show about how if you

600
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: want to live in a relationship where your partner does

601
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: all the fine and it's things, because it's just not

602
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,959
Speaker 1: for you. I love that for you, But what I

603
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: want you to do is be fully able to always

604
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: access those accounts. They want you to be able to

605
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: know how to pay a bill when it comes time

606
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: to being able to do that. So many times I

607
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: have sat down with women who I had one particular

608
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: case where this woman was incredibly wealthy. Her partner was

609
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: worth millions, but she didn't understand a thing. All she

610
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: knew was that she had an amex and a credit

611
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: card and he paid it off every month, and she

612
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: was the stay at home mum of their five kids,

613
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: and they had a very very nice life. But when

614
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: it came time to leaving that relationship, she had no

615
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: idea how. And it wasn't financially abusive, but the finances

616
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: were what was constraining her. And I sat down and said, okay, cool,

617
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: where are your bank accounts? So she's like THEE, I

618
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't even know if we have bank accounts,

619
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: you know, with CBA or with NAB or with you know,

620
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: one of the other banks. Like I wouldn't have a clue.

621
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: All I know is that I put all our expenses

622
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: on this credit card and it gets paid off. And

623
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: so it was like starting from absolute scratch. So this

624
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: type of conversation and financial abuse isn't just for people

625
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: who don't have lots of money and are controlled by

626
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: it in that way. Money can be controlling at any level.

627
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: And I think that that's something that's also a massive

628
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: misconception that financial abuse is a problem when you don't

629
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: have lots of money.

630
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 4: No, it's definitely. We see it across all different socioeconomic backgrounds.

631
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 4: You can have private bank accounts and a private banker

632
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 4: and still be at risk of financial abuse. And sometimes

633
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 4: the more assets and the more money that you have,

634
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 4: the greater the risk. Right, because while most perpetrators are

635
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 4: not actually driven by the money, just to say they're

636
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 4: driven by using money to control someone.

637
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't actually care about the dollars. They care

638
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: about the fact that they've still got you under their

639
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: thumb and they want to be able to do that.

640
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's disgusting. And I think that it's really

641
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: adrob Or how much work you're doing in this space.

642
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it's your entire career. And to me, the

643
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: just it speaks volumes that a bank would employ someone

644
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: to do this to make sure that we're okay. It

645
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: makes me really happy that this is something that we're

646
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: working more on. If we're listening to this and going

647
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: through this maybe ourselves and we're like, oh, that's a

648
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: couple of red flags that have come up, I'm feeling

649
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: a bit uncomfortable, or you're maybe going, oh, that's a friend,

650
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: or that's a family member, or that's you know, someone

651
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: I work with. How do we start to help ourselves? Like,

652
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: where can we access help? What are things that we

653
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: can do for ourselves that put us in the best

654
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: possible position for ourselves or for you know, our community.

655
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 4: Firstly, I'd say just like to acknowledge that anyone experiencing

656
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 4: financial abuse, you know, it can feel very frightening and isolating.

657
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 4: So if you know, and perpetrators will deliberately cut off

658
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 4: access often to your friends and families to create that

659
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 4: sense of isolation and that sense of dependency on some

660
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 4: someone else. So if you think you are experiencing financial abuse,

661
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 4: you recognize any of these signs of abuse, it's often

662
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 4: really helpful to have a conversation with someone you trust

663
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 4: to start with, even before you think about going to

664
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 4: any specialist services, because experiencing this form of abuse is real.

665
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 4: And if you're told that you're paranoid or that you're

666
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 4: making things up, or you know, I'm just managing the

667
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 4: money because it's in your best interest and I'm doing

668
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 4: what's right for you. You can end up second guessing

669
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 4: or questioning yourself and saying, well, actually, maybe it's not

670
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 4: that bad, right, but it is. So i'd say, first

671
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 4: and foremost, trust yourself. Trust what you're experiencing is real,

672
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 4: and it's really crucial at that time to sort of

673
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 4: get as many people around you a support people around

674
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 4: you as possible, and it can be as simple as

675
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 4: having a conversation. So the same goes if you know

676
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 4: someone experiencing financial abuse, don't be scared to have a

677
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 4: conversation with them. You don't need to have all of

678
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 4: the answers, you don't need to be an expert in

679
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 4: financial abuse. You just have to have a gentle conversation

680
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 4: and encourage someone to get the support that they need.

681
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 4: And that conversation could be a conversation that changes someone's life.

682
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 4: So don't be too scared to sort of reach out

683
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 4: and have that conversation if you're experiencing financial abuse, first

684
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 4: and foremost. If you're not feeling safe, always culturriple zero.

685
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 4: As you said at the beginning of this show, the

686
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 4: other service that we always recommend is as you mentioned,

687
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 4: one eight hundred respect and the reason that we do.

688
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 4: That is because there are a lot of support services

689
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 4: available across Australia and they may be regional, they may

690
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 4: be state based, you know, they may be national services

691
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 4: and it can be very overwhelming to try and identify

692
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 4: what service is the right service for you. So one

693
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 4: eight hundred Respect will be able to give you information

694
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 4: about your local services. They also have you know, translating

695
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 4: and interpreting services available if English isn't your first language,

696
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 4: to help you navigate those systems.

697
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: And they're beautiful human beings as well. I think something

698
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: that when you know, I don't know, I feel like

699
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: it's a hurdle for a lot of people, especially in

700
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: conversations I've had where if we sat down and you

701
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: were explaining to me that you were going through this situation,

702
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: I said, oh, Caroline, I actually think you should call

703
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: why nine hundred respect. You might go I don't know them,

704
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what they're going to say. I don't

705
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: know if they're going to be judgmental. But these are

706
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: beautiful human beings who dedicate their lives to helping you,

707
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: like that's their entire passion. Like you don't get a

708
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 1: job at one eight hundred Respect because you aren't interested

709
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: in putting people in a better situation. But also they're

710
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: trained to help you identify one what you're going through,

711
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: but to the services you need. And even if you

712
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 1: don't know what you need, just calling and saying, hey,

713
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: I really don't know what I need, but I think

714
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: I need something, they might be able to put you

715
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: in the best possible position. And they're also a brilliant

716
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: person or a brilliant group to reach out to when

717
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: you just don't feel like you want to have a

718
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: conversation with someone in real life, Like maybe you don't

719
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 1: you're not ready to open up to your best friend

720
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: about this, because these things can feel overwhelming and they

721
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: aren't embarrassing. I promise you are so smart and you

722
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: are so educated. It's just something you don't understand. But

723
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: I think that it's so important to remember that you

724
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: can reach out to these people and maybe and even

725
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 1: have a conversation about, Hey, I just want to have

726
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: a quick chat about like what I might be able

727
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: to do. I'm not ready to do it, but I

728
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: might be able to do it. And also how do

729
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: I bring it up with my friend if we go

730
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 1: out to coffee, Like those are things that these people

731
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 1: can help you with and I think so often we

732
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: just think that things will get really serious if I

733
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: make that call. Everything is on your terms, it's not

734
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: on their terms. And as you were saying before, Caroline,

735
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: you can tell the bank about what's going on and

736
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: say please don't do anything about it, like the power

737
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: is in your hands. And I think that when we're

738
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: going through something like this, we often think that the

739
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: power is going to be stripped from us if we

740
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: reach out to somebody else, because they might quote no better.

741
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: But you are the one who knows the best about

742
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: this situation, and every single resource is going to be

743
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: used based on how you think it's going to work

744
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: for you, not how somebody else thinks it's going to be.

745
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: You know the best. They're not going to swoop in

746
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: and change things. They're going to actually help you and

747
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: put you in the best possible position. And I think

748
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 1: that's so important to understand. So, Caroline, are there any

749
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: other ways that we can reach out? You know, whether

750
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 1: we are victim survivors of financial abuse, or we are

751
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: trying to help our friends and family or people around us.

752
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: We've got one eight hundred respects. I know that CBA

753
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: has a brilliant offering. How do we get in contact

754
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: with CBA and are there any other resources that we

755
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: should know about?

756
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 4: Absolutely? Look, CBA has a program called Next Chapter and

757
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 4: that comprises of a number of things including a team

758
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 4: of banking specialists. And they're not trained counselors. They are

759
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 4: specialists in safe banking options. Now, as we were talking

760
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 4: about earlier, we extended that support not just as CBA

761
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 4: customers but to anyone across Australia, regardless of who you banquet,

762
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 4: and they really can help you understand, you know, how

763
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 4: to secure your banking. They can also make referrals to

764
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 4: specialist financial organizations, such as a partnership that we have

765
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 4: with Good Shepherds called the Financial Independence Hub. Now that

766
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 4: might not be right for everyone, but they offer long

767
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 4: term financial counseling to help you re establish your independence

768
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 4: once you're safe. So they're not a crisis support service,

769
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 4: but they are available to help you do things like

770
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 4: separate you know, finances to budgets, to provide long term

771
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 4: financial counseling options to help you really, you know, understand

772
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 4: your finances and get back on track again.

773
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: Good Shepherd are gorgeous as well. I've done some work

774
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: with them historically, and I don't think a lot of

775
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: people know who they are or what they do. But

776
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: they essentially enable personal agency capability and confidence to you know,

777
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: help you lead really dignified outcomes when it comes to income,

778
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: financial health, and wellbeing. And they run you know, financial

779
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: literacy workshops and they talk about how to set up

780
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 1: your banking if you're starting from scratch or even they have.

781
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 4: A NILLS I was gonna say great NILS program.

782
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: They have a NILS program so it's no interest loans,

783
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: So if you find yourself in a pickle, they can

784
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,919
Speaker 1: help you either refinance alone that you have and you're

785
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 1: struggling with. But NILS is a null interest loan, and

786
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: you know often there's a lot of like criteria you

787
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: will need to meet for this. It's not like, oh, hey,

788
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: I would love a no interest loan because same, but

789
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: it's more for getting you out of financially pressing situations

790
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: or making sure that you have access to things that

791
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 1: you need. But as you're saying, they're not a emergency service,

792
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: but they are a beautiful service to know about. I'm

793
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: obsessed with them, Like the idea that they exist is

794
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 1: so so nice. But that alongside next chapter. I think

795
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: a really good team of people to put you in

796
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 1: the best possible position.

797
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 4: The only other one i'd probably reference again is if

798
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 4: you're in elgbtik plus sort of Rainbow community. Full Stop

799
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 4: Australia run a dedicated phone service which is called the

800
00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 4: Rainbow Sexual, Domestic and Family Violence Helpline. Now they are

801
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 4: trained and they are a safe service for people in

802
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 4: the community and really understand the unique needs of people

803
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 4: in the community when seeking support for farmin and domestic violence,

804
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 4: so they're also a great resource to refer to as well.

805
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: I love that. Oh my gosh, I'm going to make

806
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: sure you guys don't have to take notes. I'm going

807
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: to make sure that all of those resources outlined in

808
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: our show notes with links so that it makes it

809
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: as easy as possible. But Caroline, it has been so

810
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: beautiful having this conversation with you. I feel like it's

811
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: the right step in the right direction when it comes

812
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: to hoping to end financial abuse. The work that you

813
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: do is so special, and I think it would be

814
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: really taxing on you as well to be diving every

815
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 1: single day into this situation. But you're putting so many

816
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: people in better positions. I'm so grateful that we have

817
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: you in our community and get to share you with everyone.

818
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: But we'll have you on the show again at some point,

819
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: hopefully to talk a little bit deeper about this topic,

820
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: because I think it's something that we really need to

821
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: deeply understand. But thank you for joining us. It's been

822
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: a pleasure, and I know that our community is so

823
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 1: much better off having had this chat. The advice shared

824
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: on She's on the Money is general in nature and

825
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: does not consider your individual circumstances. She's on the Money

826
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied

827
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you

828
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS

829
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs.

830
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 1: Victoria Divine and She's on the Money are authorized representatives

831
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: of Money. Shepper Pty Ltd ABN three two one six

832
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: four nine two seven seven zero eight AFSL four five

833
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: one two eight nine