1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: I was a total theater nerd when I was growing up. 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: It was through school plays and then starting drama for 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: year eleven and twelve in high school that really brought 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: me out of my shell as someone who was a 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: very shy child, and being a theater nerd in the 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: nineties meant that I was a complete and uttered David 7 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: Williamson fan and I had read or seen every one 8 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: of his plays by the time that I was eighteen. Now, 9 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: if you haven't heard of David Williamson, he is, I 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: would say, Australia's most famous playwright. He debuted his first 11 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: play in nineteen seventy. After spending years as a college teacher, 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: he kept writing and was soon releasing hit after hit. 13 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: You might have seen or heard of The Removalists, The Club, 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: Emerald City, or one of his other fifty plus plays 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: that he has written over the course of his career, 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: and maybe you've even held your own Don's Party for 17 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: Election Night, named after David's famous play of the same name. 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: So I don't know if there's anyone in Australia who 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,559 Speaker 1: wouldn't have come into contact with David's work somehow, whether 20 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: it's studying his plays at school, seeing them in a 21 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: theater or maybe watching his screenplays on film or TV. 22 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: So where did David's best ideas come from that allowed 23 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: him to write hit after hit nearly every year during 24 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: his theater career. And how did David deal with a 25 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: lot of negative reviews over the course of his career, 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: And why does David believe that writer's block is a 27 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: total myth. My name is doctor Romantha Imba. I'm an 28 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and the founder of Behavioral Science Consultancy. Invent 29 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: him and this is how I work a show about 30 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: how to help you do your best work. So you 31 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: would not remember this, But when I was gosh, I 32 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: want to say, like twenty or twenty five years ago, 33 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: when I was in my early twenties, I won an 34 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: award for scriptwriting from the Fellowship of Australian Writers and you, 35 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: I think, were associated with it or you sponsored it. 36 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: And I was such a fan of yours. I saw 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: and read so many of your plays growing up as 38 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: a teenager, through my twenties and through my whole life. 39 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: And I wrote you a fan letter at that point 40 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: in time, and you responded and I still have that letter, David. 41 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 2: I hope I wasn't rude or. 42 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: You were so polite, and it really like it just 43 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: it made my day, it made my month, And I 44 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: was curious because I never imagined in my wildest dreams 45 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: that you would reply, and I would imagine you over 46 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: the course of your career. You must have received so 47 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: many letters from fans. What's your approach to I guess 48 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: responding to everyone that does reach out. 49 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I feel if they been kind enough 50 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: to want to communicate, it's very boorish not to respect that. Well, 51 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 2: first of all, they've thought you are important enough and 52 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: important enough in their life to want to communicate with, 53 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: and to not answer would seem awful, from whether anyone 54 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: believes it or not. Whatever the acclaim or lack of acclaim, 55 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 2: I get out there, I see my sophice fairly ordinary, 56 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 2: fairly easily hurt, and I can empathize with anyone else 57 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 2: that's fairly easily hurt. And there's nothing like plucking up 58 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 2: the courage to approach someone that you admire and then 59 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: not getting a response. So I try, and I try 60 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 2: and do my best. I think I've answered most of them. 61 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: Wow, that's very impressive, because I can't even begin to 62 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: imagine how. 63 00:03:58,400 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 2: Many you received. 64 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: Now, at the height of your career, you were literally 65 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: putting out a play every year, certainly much to my delight, 66 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: And I want to know, how did you keep up 67 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: with that kind of intensity to be putting out a 68 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: new play every single year, Amantha. 69 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: I think it was a question of addiction once I 70 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 2: had experienced I first experienced the thrill of actors saying 71 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: my words and audiences responding in university reviews. But when 72 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 2: I got to full length players, that was a whole 73 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: different ballgame. That was a big effort. But when I 74 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: got to the stage where I could create something really good, 75 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: actors and directors would work on it, and then the 76 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 2: magic ingredient would turn up on the first preview night, 77 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: the audience, and if you've got it right, there was 78 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: a palpable connection between what you'd written, the actors, the audience. 79 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: What you'd written was meaning something to all those live 80 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: people there in the audience, and it was a huge 81 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: buzz and quite addictive. And once I'd experienced that, I 82 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 2: wanted to experience it again. And it's a classic addiction case. 83 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: I think. I think a lot of executives are like that. 84 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: If they have one of their projects flowers and comes off. 85 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 2: They wanted to happen again. That's so true. 86 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: So what would that look like putting out a play 87 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: a year? How would your year be structured or broken 88 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: down to essentially hit that deadline. 89 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 2: Well, it was fairly laid out for me because the 90 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,679 Speaker 2: theater companies that I worked for, the Sydney Theater Company 91 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,799 Speaker 2: in the Welburne Theater Company and the other theater companies 92 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 2: around had have a system of subscription audiences, and around 93 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,679 Speaker 2: about September or sometimes August, they put out a brochure 94 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: with all the upcoming plays for the next year and 95 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 2: offer it to their subscribers to buy multiple tickets. They 96 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: pick tickets to all of the players or some of them, 97 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 2: and so they have to have that brochure ready. So 98 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 2: by June they're really in the last stages of assembling 99 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 2: that brochure. So going back a couple of months, they 100 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: need my play to be typically there about April, hopefully 101 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 2: before that at the latest May, they had to assess it. 102 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 2: They had to see who they were going to cast, 103 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 2: because that's a vital ingredient in the brochure that goes out. 104 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: It's not only Williamson's play, but x or Y is 105 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 2: starring at it, so they had to put all that 106 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: together get it out by August or September, so you 107 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: had to get your stuff done by hopefully. They used 108 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 2: to want me to have it in by March April. 109 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 2: May was really pushing it. 110 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: And is that the full play? Because funnily enough, literally 111 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: just received next year's MTC brochure in the mail yesterday, 112 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: which I was excitingly, excitedly reading through. So is it 113 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: the full play that needs to be ready by that 114 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: point in time? 115 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: Well enough, It needs to be finished enough. It's usually 116 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: only a first or second or third draft that they 117 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: go on, but it has to be finished enough to 118 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: attract good actors and a good director to do the play. 119 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 2: It can't be too shoddy or too appalling. I will 120 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: work on it after it's accepted, after it's in the brochure, 121 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 2: I will still keep working on many, usually many more drafts, 122 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 2: usually ten, twelve fifty, sometimes fifteen drafts, and then I 123 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: would get the privilege of a rehearsal, a rehearsed reading 124 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: with my cast, those of who could be assembled about 125 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: eight weeks before rehearsal starts, so sometimes six weeks. Towards 126 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,119 Speaker 2: the end of my career, I got that all the time, 127 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: so you could hear it. It's not until you hear 128 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 2: good actors bringing the script to life you realize where 129 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 2: the mistakes are that you've made, Like redundant information. I've 130 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: said that three times. I'm really hammering that point. That 131 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: passage is on the nose. By on the nose, I mean, 132 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: it's too obvious. You don't need to say tell an 133 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: actor that I have an actor saying I am so 134 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: angry if their actions are demonstrating that they're angry. So 135 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 2: all kinds of things like that come up in the reading. 136 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 2: Then you go away and rewrite again, and then there's 137 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: even some shaping up during the rehearsal process itself. On 138 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 2: the first day of the reading, you'll hope it's all right, 139 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: but usually there's a bit of tinkering. But you can't 140 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 2: do too much in a four or five week rehearsal 141 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: otherwise to throw the actors, so you just hope that 142 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 2: you've got it right. But by the time rehearsal start, what's. 143 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: That like the first time you hear a play read 144 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: out or performed by actors in that rehearsal room. 145 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: It's very nerve wreaking matter because those actors are very smart. 146 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: They know what works, they know what doesn't. The director 147 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: is usually a very good director and knows what works 148 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: and knows what does doesn't. So it's a testing situation 149 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,479 Speaker 2: for you as a writer to get through that unscathed 150 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: or relatively unscathed. But if you've got something wrong, the 151 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 2: actors and the director will usually alert you to it, 152 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 2: usually tactfully, and if you agree, you work on it. 153 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 2: So it's a collaborative process to a certain extent once 154 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: you've got those actors around the table. But hearing good 155 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 2: actors work on your words is well I said, it's 156 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 2: nerve wreck process is nerve wracking, but hearing it when 157 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: it's working as magic you hear as I'm writing, my 158 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 2: dialogue isn't strictly naturalistic. It's not exactly how people talk. 159 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: There are musical rhythms in the dialogue which actors have 160 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: to grasp on and do grasp on, and when they 161 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 2: get it, it's like singing. They take off. 162 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: So when you're in that typically four week rehearsal process 163 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: before the previews before opening night, how much is changing 164 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: in a script in that I guess that in the 165 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: final in the final rehearsal process, in. 166 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: The final rehearsal process, just fine tuning, maybe cutting five 167 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: percent of the lines that are redundant. Usually sometimes I 168 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: have had to do a radical rewriter occasionally, and that's 169 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: always upsetting for the class, and they usually bear with you. 170 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 2: But it doesn't happen all that often. But you don't 171 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 2: want to do it all that often because it's a 172 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: big up people. But there was one or two players 173 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: where I saw that there was a big floor and 174 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 2: I had to address it. 175 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: You mentioned like there have been a couple of times 176 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: you've had to do some major rewrites. What's your approach 177 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: to I guess solving a problem, like a major problem 178 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: with a script where something is really not working. 179 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: Well. There's a player I did called Brilliant Lies. 180 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: I love that one. 181 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: Oh. That was in the early nineties, and I had 182 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 2: the magnificent actor Ray Barrett playing the father of the 183 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 2: two girls. And in the initial right he was a benign, gentle, 184 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 2: sort of chap ineffectual. And I heard the read and 185 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 2: I thought that raise wasted he I mean he could 186 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: do this role standing on his ear. I mean, people 187 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 2: all like him, but there's nothing to stretch him here. 188 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: He's such a great actor. I've got to do more 189 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 2: than this with him. So I did a very radical 190 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 2: rewrite and made him quite a bit darker and quite 191 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 2: a bit more less pleasant. There was some sexual abuse 192 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 2: of his daughters, not severe, but severe enough to traumatize them, 193 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 2: and they had to cope with that, and they had 194 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,439 Speaker 2: to cope with his illness, and they had to cope 195 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 2: with finding money to save his life and did they 196 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: really want to do it? Give them the history. So 197 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 2: it became a lot more dark, a lot more dramatic, 198 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 2: and gave him a lot more range. And that was 199 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: perhaps the most major rewrite. And I did a lot 200 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 2: of that during the rehearsal. And Ray was terrific because 201 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: to the cast, I had a wonderful cast there and 202 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 2: they were tolerant because they could see the play was 203 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: going to sing. It was going to be a lot 204 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 2: more powerful if we did this. And Ray went along 205 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 2: with it, and part of that was because he knew 206 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: that his part would be far more demanding, but rewarding 207 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: for him and rewarding for the audience. 208 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: And so how do you do that rewrite? Like do 209 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: you start big picture and then hone in on the 210 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 1: you know, on the scenes and the dialogue. What does 211 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: that look like? 212 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 2: Well I got the idea. I said, Ah, what I've 213 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 2: got to do with him is not making the perfect father. 214 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 2: I've really got to make him. And how do I 215 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 2: do that? Well, two daughters? Do I stray into this territory? 216 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: And I thought, yes, yes, let's do it. And so 217 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 2: I write fast when it's mainly getting the grasp of 218 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 2: the new structure. All right, I know where I'm going now, 219 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: so I can do it. I can write new scenes 220 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: at fairly high speed and then rewrite them at high 221 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: speed and rewrite them. So we got it in shape 222 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 2: remarkably quickly given the magnitude of the change. But I'm 223 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: so glad we did it because it turned out a 224 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: much better play for it. 225 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: So, high speed writing, what does that look like? What 226 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: conditions do you need to do this? High speed writing? 227 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: As you refer to it. 228 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: A lot of adrenaline, Amantha, I'm a lot of adrenaline. 229 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: I get excited, I get anxious, keyed up. I've got 230 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 2: to get this right. My wife Kristen sees the glaze 231 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 2: look in my eye and knows there's no sense trying 232 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: to communicate for the next day or two until I 233 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: get it right. Yeah, it's a frenzy. When it's that 234 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: sort of a big job, it's a frenzy and it 235 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 2: just seems to pour out. It just pours out. You 236 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 2: don't know from where. Some deep recesses than you. A 237 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 2: lot of what comes out on the page isn't from 238 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 2: your conscious mind. It comes from somewhere. I don't know where, 239 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: but you just thank god it's there. 240 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: And what's happening around you? Like if you locked yourself away, 241 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: do you have this Like is there a particular environment 242 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: that you do that best friends, you'd work in? What 243 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: does that look like? 244 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 2: Just my office? And I get grumpy, obsessed and unbearable 245 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 2: to live with during the process. But luckily Kristen is 246 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: a writer herself, so she knows the force of obsession 247 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: and by and large, except when it's gone to extremes, 248 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 2: has been tolerant. 249 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: Wow, And what do you do with all the things 250 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: that can distract you, like you know, your phone for example, 251 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: or email? What happens to all those things when you're 252 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: in this kind of flow state. 253 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: I guess you don't notice the rest of the world, 254 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: you leave bills unpaid, you leave vital calls unanswered, which 255 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: I don't like doing. I mean, I'm the sort of 256 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: person who gets anxious if bills are hanging over your head, 257 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: and I feel awful if I haven't replied to someone. 258 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: So it's only in those states where you know you've 259 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 2: got to get something done, where you're in a heightened 260 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 2: state that all the rest of the world fades away 261 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 2: in service and you're in service of the task of 262 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: getting it right, with the aim of producing something that 263 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 2: really connects and secondly, something good enough so it doesn't 264 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 2: humiliate you. 265 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: I feel like your plays always have such unique and 266 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: different and interesting premises, so I want to know, like, 267 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: where does that seed of an idea from, Like when 268 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: you're starting something new, it. 269 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 2: Sort of usually comes from observations of the life around 270 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 2: things I've heard, things I've seen, things I've read. And 271 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 2: what triggers me is when it arouses a strong emotional 272 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 2: response in me. If I feel angry, or if I 273 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: feel it's hilarious, or if I feel really involved in 274 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 2: that story or what I've seen, if I'm really excited 275 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 2: by it, then my emotional response tells me that that 276 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 2: particular theme or situation could also excite an interest and audience. 277 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: How much would you flesh out an idea before you 278 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: metaphorically put pen to paper. 279 00:17:53,760 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: It varies. I'm not big on doing hugely detailed synopsies. 280 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 2: Usually I'll find the situation I want to write about. 281 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 2: I'll find the conflicts that are going to drive my story. 282 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 2: I'll find the characters and the conflicts between them that 283 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 2: are going to drive my story. I'll sometimes write a 284 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 2: rough outline of a couple of pages, sometimes more. I'll 285 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 2: know where the story is vague vaguely hitting or not 286 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: so vaguely but heading, and where I think it is 287 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 2: going to end. But then as the writing process takes over, 288 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: things happen. I don't. I hear some writers saying, oh, 289 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 2: my characters dictate to me and take me off. Another 290 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: doruct well, my characters don't dictate to me. But new 291 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 2: ideas spontaneously form, what if this, what if that? And 292 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: new possibilities open out as you begin the process of writing. 293 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: So in the sense it is organic, you never quite 294 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 2: know where it's going to go. But I was very 295 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 2: struck by the American playwright David Marmott, who said, look 296 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: if I don't surprise myself when I'm writing. I'm not 297 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 2: going to surprise the audience. Now, the danger of that 298 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 2: organic method is that you can go off the rails. 299 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 2: You can sort of you can get excited about new possibilities, 300 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 2: new branches of your story and get carried away with 301 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: it and suddenly find you've got a very chaotic structure 302 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 2: that's out of control. So the next ten, twelve, fifteen 303 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: drafts are getting that structure back in order. 304 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: And with these ideas that are kind of emerging as 305 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: you're writing, how do you judge whether they're worth pursuing 306 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: or not? 307 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 2: I think with Ernest Hemingway says the greatest asset of 308 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 2: any good writer is what he called a shit detector. 309 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: You've gone. You've got to be ruthless enough with yourself 310 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 2: to know when that idea really isn't a good idea, 311 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: when it's tried, when it's been done to death, when 312 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 2: it's improbable, when the character would just not do what 313 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: you've got them doing. You've got to be aware of 314 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: your organic process going off the rails. 315 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: We will be back shortly with David Hearing about how 316 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: he remembers ideas that come to him at inopportune at times, 317 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:54,479 Speaker 1: and also his methods for overcoming writer's block. Now, if 318 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: you're looking for more tips to improve the way that 319 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: you work, I write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains 320 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: three cool things that I've discovered that helped me work better, 321 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: ranging from interesting research findings through to gadgets that I'm loving. 322 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot co, 323 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: How I Work dot c. What's it like when you're 324 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: in the middle of writing a script, like are those 325 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: characters living with you twenty four to seven? Or is 326 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: it quite contained? When you're at your computer writing No. 327 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,239 Speaker 2: I find it hard to let go, as Kristin can 328 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 2: tell you, and as I say, it's lucky she's a 329 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 2: writer because she's a bit tolerant. When a story is 330 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: forming and being executed. It's hard for me to drag 331 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: my mind off it, even when I'm not at the 332 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 2: word processor. So Kristin will occasionally turn them in say 333 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 2: what did I just say? I've been saved by the 334 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: essential of a magic facility somewhere at the back of 335 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: my brain that records even if I'm not conscious of it. 336 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 2: You can usually parrot back the lines and get away 337 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: with it, But I've just said from the kitchen that 338 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 2: doesn't mean it goes in. No, that's true, but no, 339 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 2: I find it hard to switch off. Often I'll go 340 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 2: to bed and agonized because and have a fairly sleepless 341 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 2: night because that I can't seem to find it way 342 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 2: out of the story impass and it doesn't seem to 343 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: be going anywhere. Then you wake up in the morning, 344 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: have a shower, or have a walk on the beach 345 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 2: or something like that, and it'll come to you. So 346 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 2: it's a fairly up and down emotional process. 347 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: What methods do you have for capturing all those thoughts 348 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: and ideas and dialogue that come to your head in 349 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: opportune times? 350 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 2: Often I have been really irritating myself for not having 351 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 2: a patterned pencil or something there to call them, But 352 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: I raally remember to take them round, So I try 353 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 2: and retain them in my head till the next opportunity 354 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 2: I've got to jot the idea down. 355 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: How do you do that, like through repetition or have 356 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: you got any tricks or have you just got a 357 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: superhuman memory? 358 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 2: Often through repetition or remembering the initials that thought and 359 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: sort of memory tricks, But often I forget them. I'm 360 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: really really annoyed. I should I should be sensible enough 361 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 2: to carry a pattern pencil around me, but I never 362 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 2: get round of it. 363 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: Well, look, I guess what what you're doing is working 364 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: pretty well for you, David. Now you mentioned you know 365 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: this process where you're stuck on something and you're trying 366 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,199 Speaker 1: to get unstuck. What are some of your go to 367 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: methods for forgetting on stack, other than having a good 368 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: night's sleep, hopefully or maybe a restless night sleep. 369 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 2: It sounds like sometimes it's a matter of just going 370 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 2: back to the word processor and writing anything, just writing 371 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: bad stuff, and that bad stuff makes you so disgusted 372 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: you think up something more, and then you think up 373 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 2: something more. And sometimes it's a process of just hammering 374 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: away at the word processor until something reasonable emerges. But 375 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 2: sometimes it can just come out of the blue, like 376 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: as I say, I was having great trouble with the 377 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: ending of one of my players, and suddenly the subconscious 378 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: must have been working away on it, and the solution 379 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 2: popped into my head. I think I was under the shower. 380 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 2: So sometimes you just slog away and hope that the 381 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 2: bad ideas get better as you write them. And other 382 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: times as if by magic the solution will appear. 383 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: Do you believe in writer's block? 384 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 2: No. I think writer's block is just a form of 385 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 2: perfectionism that the writer can't stand to put anything on 386 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 2: their screen that's less than perfect, so they'd rather not 387 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 2: do anything at all. It's something I couldn't afford to 388 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 2: have with a large family to support. I have no 389 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: sympathy for writers that say I've got writer's block. Well, 390 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 2: I say, get to the word process and write something it. 391 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how bad it is. Just write something, 392 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 2: and how bad it is will shock you into thinking 393 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 2: up something better. And then you think up something better. 394 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 2: Just keep working, don't sit there agonizing and saying I 395 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 2: haven't got an idea fair enough. 396 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: At what point in your writing process would you let 397 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: someone else read your work for feedback? Oh? 398 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: After the first draft invaluable Kristen, my wife is the 399 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 2: first one ever to read a draft, and her judgment 400 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 2: is pretty good. She's got quite subtle about criticism over 401 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 2: the years. Doesn't tell me come down the stead that 402 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 2: it's quite tense. I give her the draft, quite excited. 403 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 2: She goes up to her office and reads, and I 404 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: wait for an hour and a half or so, and 405 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 2: then she comes out with a look on her face, 406 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 2: and I can tell from the look on her face 407 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 2: whether it's good news or bad news. When it's really 408 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 2: good news, she's got tears in her eyes, believe it 409 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 2: or not because she thinks it's so good. When she's 410 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 2: got a very worried look on her face, I know 411 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: there's a lot more rewriting to go now. 412 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: I feel like as an MTC or Melbourne Theater Company subscriber, 413 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: there's always a lot of excitement when there's a David 414 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 1: Williamson play on the agenda for the year. And how 415 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: do you deal with the pressure of writing, Like you're 416 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: the I'm writing the next David Williamson play. 417 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: Well, I'm not any longer. I've had fifty years in 418 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: the business and and I've just written my memoir, which 419 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: has caused me. I really enjoyed doing it, but it's 420 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 2: been a long slog and it's just been published and 421 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 2: it's it's a lot of words, but worth doing. But 422 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: I don't want to see word Processor again for a while. 423 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: So I guess, like back in, back in like the 424 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: peak of where you were writing a play a year, 425 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: do you remember what that pressure was like and how 426 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: you dealt with it. 427 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 2: It was. It was pressure, there was no doubt about 428 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: it. It was pressure. I'd say, right, I've really got to 429 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: get a great idea for this year. Now let's sit down, 430 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 2: let's scan the environment. I want something powerful, I want 431 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 2: something funny, I want something whatever. I want something that's 432 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: going to affect the audiences. So the tension then was 433 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 2: finding the subject, and there was a lot of false 434 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: starts there before I actually got to decide on the subject. 435 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 2: But the writing process usually was exciting, tense, but exciting. 436 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: That's when you get into a sort of a transcendent 437 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 2: state and you really got to get that first draft down, which, 438 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 2: as I said, is evolving organically and developing as you're 439 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 2: doing it, which adds to the excitement. So that was 440 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: the not the fun part, but the really in the 441 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: time flow part where you just didn't notice time was passing. 442 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 1: And I want to know, like on the first preview night, 443 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: when you're actually there and there's a packed house watching 444 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: your words being spoken for the first time in this 445 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: big theater in environment, what sorts of things are you 446 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: looking for when you're looking at the audience to kind 447 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: of see what do I need to change? 448 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, I'm looking for involvement. I'm hoping the audience 449 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 2: is absorbed in the story. I hope it's relating to 450 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 2: their lives, because the thing I used to love was 451 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,239 Speaker 2: writing plays that impinged on the sorts of lives or 452 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 2: reflected the sorts of lives that those people were having. 453 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: Now I've often been criticized because my plays are about 454 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 2: the Anglo Celtic middle class, and there are only one 455 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: segment of our society. But it's a segment I know, 456 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 2: and there's a lot of us, and we should and 457 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 2: we should be allowed to have our own stories. And 458 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 2: the proliferation of writing from other groups in society has 459 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: been very welcome. But that's what I know, and that's 460 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 2: what I do. And when I heard that, audience, usually 461 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 2: fairly middle class and Anglic Celtic reacting to it and saying, wow, this, 462 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 2: I know someone like that. I really know someone like that, 463 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 2: and I've seen that happen. You can see them when 464 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 2: you can sense them saying that. That's when it's deeply satisfying. 465 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: And would you talk to audience members during interval or 466 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: at the end. 467 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 2: No, I'd be terrified. I'd leave kristin. She'd do a 468 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: survey from the women's lou and she'd hear the buzz 469 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: in there and come back. I'm terribly self conscious. On 470 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 2: when I'm in an audience. I'm often accused of laughing 471 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 2: at my own work. They look at me like, oh, 472 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: he's laughing at his own work. Well, I'm usually laughing 473 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 2: at the creativity that clever actors have brought to my lines, 474 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 2: rather than celebrating my lines. But it's hard to tell 475 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: them that. No, I'm terribly self conscious. There was a 476 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 2: time when I couldn't go to opening nights. I'd have 477 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: to send Kristen off and get a report back. It's 478 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 2: very tense, very tense now. 479 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: I imagine when reviews start coming out, that is an 480 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: interesting time. I'd love to know. How do you deal 481 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: with bad reviews, negative reviews? 482 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: Well, earlier in my career I didn't deal very well 483 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 2: at all. The first law of criticism I learned, much 484 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 2: to my chagrin, was that the strength of the audience 485 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 2: reaction bears no relation to the critics evaluation of the play. 486 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 2: In fact, sometimes it works in reverse. I remember one 487 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 2: critic writing, I sat with a black cloud above me 488 00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 2: as people fell about around me, laughing, as if this 489 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 2: is a terrible crime that I'd written something that people 490 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: were enjoying. But a lot of theater critics think that 491 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 2: theater is an arena of suffering that you've got to 492 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 2: be if you're Anglo Celtic middle class, you've got to 493 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 2: be whipped and told your horrible species that are doing 494 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 2: terrible things to the planet and other people, and you've 495 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 2: got to be told how bad you are. You're not 496 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 2: allowed to laugh and enjoy the theater. It's a place 497 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 2: of torture, according to some critics. But no, so I didn't. 498 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 2: I particularly reacted badly when I knew I'd written a 499 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 2: hit and got no recognition for it whatsoever. In fact, 500 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 2: got slammed for it, being told I was commercial. And 501 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 2: I knew that my players were players of substance. Sure, 502 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 2: they are entertaining. Unless you make a play entertaining on 503 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 2: the surface, you won't get an audience, there's no sense 504 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: doing it. But at other levels they were making fairly 505 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: often fairly acute observations about the patterns of our social 506 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: behavior that were often quite intricate. And I knew my 507 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: work wasn't meretricious. It was actually something of substance, and 508 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: so to be because people are enjoying it. To be 509 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 2: told it was worthless was a hard pill to swallow. 510 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 2: But then again, the human psyche is somehow structured to 511 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 2: concentrate ferociously on all the negative and set aside the positive. 512 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 2: And there are a lot of positive things being said 513 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 2: about me. But the human ego, being as it is, 514 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 2: you tend to think, well, of course that's right, Yes, 515 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 2: of course I'm brilliant. Yeah, but what's this bastard calling me? Yeah, 516 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: so you obsess about the bad stuff and forget the 517 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 2: good stuff. And it reminded me of Dostoevsky, that one 518 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 2: of the greatest novelists ever, who had his life blighted 519 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 2: by one persistent, awful critic in the Ukraine that kept 520 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 2: giving him a rough time and it eventually ruined his life. 521 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 2: So I was a bit like that, but I got better. 522 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 2: But at the start, when I became prominent, it was 523 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 2: a psychic shock because until that stage I was a 524 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 2: lecturer in a tertiary institution. As students like me, their 525 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 2: staff like me, my friends seemed to like me. I 526 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,240 Speaker 2: was affable, nobody hated me, And then suddenly you become 527 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 2: prominent and you realize the arts is the most ferociously 528 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 2: competitive field on the face of the earth. Everyone wants 529 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,959 Speaker 2: to be a writer or an artist or something like that. 530 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 2: So if you succeed, the ones that haven't succeeded have 531 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 2: really got it in for you. 532 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 1: And now, of course you've got your memoir Home Truths out, David. 533 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: So I'd love to know for listeners that are keen 534 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 1: to consume that and just the stuff that you've put 535 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: out into the world, what's the best way for people 536 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: to get their hands on a copy and connect with you. 537 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 2: Oh well, as I say, in all good bookstores, it's 538 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 2: a HarperCollins publication available online through places like Booktopia or Amazon. 539 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 2: And I was as honest as I could be. I've 540 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: spent a life dissecting the flaws and imperfections, hopefully with 541 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 2: some degree of benevolence of other people. So I thought, well, 542 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 2: if I'm going to I can't stand memoirs at a 543 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 2: puff pieces for their authors who make themselves the hero 544 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,720 Speaker 2: of their own life. So I've tried to be honest. 545 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 2: I think it's also very amusing in past because a 546 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 2: lot of funny things that have happened to me in 547 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 2: my life. But I've also been honest about my imperfections, 548 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 2: which have been embarrassingly bad at times in terms of 549 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 2: my personal life. Amazing. 550 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: Now, David, if you if I would have told my 551 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: twenty one year old self that I would get to 552 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: spend an hour or so talking to you, my mind 553 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: would have been blown back, you know, twenty twenty five 554 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: years ago. And I just want to say it's been 555 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,399 Speaker 1: an absolute treat chatting with you and hearing about your 556 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: process for creating some of my favorite plays that I've 557 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: ever seen. So thank you, so much. 558 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 2: Thank you, Mantha. It has been an absolute pleasure to 559 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 2: talk to you, and what lovely questions. 560 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: Hello there, I hope you enjoyed my chat with David Oh. 561 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: It was just such a joy to talk to him, 562 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: one of my lifelong heroes. Now, if you are not 563 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: a subscriber or follower of how I work, you might 564 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: want to hit the subscribe or follow. But now, because 565 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: next week I've got Chris Oliver Taylor, who is the 566 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: head of Freemantle Australia, one of our biggest production houses, 567 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 1: and we'll be talking about what it takes to picture 568 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,479 Speaker 1: a successful TV idea and how he knows when he's 569 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: onto a winner. How I Work is produced by Inventing 570 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: with production support for Dead Set Studios. The producer for 571 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: this episode was Jenna Koda, and thank you to Martin 572 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: Nimber who does the audio mix for every show and 573 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise. See 574 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: you next time.