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Speaker 1: We know the former Northern Territory Chief Minister Marshall parent

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Speaker 1: is urging the Territory government to reject any fixed time

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Speaker 1: frame for people seeking voluntary assisted dying under the proposed

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory laws. In a letter to the Attorney General

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Speaker 1: Mary Claire Boothby, mister Perrin says eligibility should be based

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Speaker 1: on intolerable and hopeless suffering, not an arbitrary prediction about

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Speaker 1: how long someone has left to live now. He argues

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Speaker 1: that medical forecasts are often unreliable and warns strict time

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Speaker 1: limits risk excluding people with degenerative illness who are suffering

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Speaker 1: but not considered close enough to death. Now, Marshall Perrien

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Speaker 1: joins me on the line right now. Good morning to you, Marshall.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie, and good morning to all your listens

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Speaker 2: up in the Territory.

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Speaker 1: It is lovely to have you on the show now, Marshall,

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Speaker 1: why did you decide to write to the Attorney General

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Speaker 1: about this?

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Speaker 2: Well, the movement of voluntary youth in nature legislation across

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Speaker 2: Australia for the last thirty years since the Northern Territory

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Speaker 2: had its law quashed by the Federal Parliament, and so

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Speaker 2: I have a keen interest in the subject and I

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Speaker 2: know something about it, having been a pastime of mind

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Speaker 2: in my retirement. So the time to try and get

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Speaker 2: the legislation as close as reasonable as possible is early

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Speaker 2: in the peace when the bill is introduced and minimize

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Speaker 2: hopefully the number of amendments that are required to bring

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Speaker 2: it into good shape on the floor of the Parliament.

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Speaker 2: So when the Attorney General indicated on her statement at

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Speaker 2: the beginning of January that she was considering having a timeline,

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Speaker 2: the prognosis timeline included in the bill that she's indicated

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Speaker 2: would be introduced in the earlier year, I decided to

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Speaker 2: try and get involved and influence her a little bit

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Speaker 2: if I could, because the committee that the Parliament established

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Speaker 2: Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee in the Territory actually recommended

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Speaker 2: that no timeline be included in the legislation for the Territory,

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Speaker 2: and the Attorney General has indicated already that she's going

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Speaker 2: to consider a timeline, and that worries me because she

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Speaker 2: may well reject other good recommendations of that parliamentary committee

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Speaker 2: and make the bill a lot tighter than it needs

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Speaker 2: to be. And the reason I'm suspicious is the Territory

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Speaker 2: government is clearly on a path to try and defer

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Speaker 2: and delay this process as long as possible. It's been

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Speaker 2: what now three years or so since the Territory regained

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Speaker 2: the right to introduce laws on voluntary assisted dying, and

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Speaker 2: we are still at the early stages of debating the

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Speaker 2: issue in the territory, whereas places like the Act, which

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Speaker 2: had the same restrictions initially on legislating on this subject.

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Speaker 2: Their law came into place last November and is working satisfactially.

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Speaker 2: And interestingly, the Act, being the last Australian jurisdiction to

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Speaker 2: legislate on PAD, did not include a timeline to death. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: well that was the first jurisdiction to do that, and

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Speaker 2: we want the territory to follow.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Marshall. The thing I sort of find interesting about

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Speaker 1: it is I know that when my father was diagnosed

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Speaker 1: with terminal cancer and I'm talking sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: ten years ago, and was dying, they didn't actually give

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Speaker 1: him a timeline. And you know, am my understanding and

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Speaker 1: I could be very wrong, you know, as I said,

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Speaker 1: that's ten years ago, but my understanding is that like

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Speaker 1: quite often, you know, like doctors are less inclined to

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Speaker 1: really give you a timeline, because they don't know how

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Speaker 1: your body's going to react to certain medications or certain

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Speaker 1: treatments that you may be undergoing.

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Speaker 2: You one hundred percent correct, Katie, And that's one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons why you shouldn't introduce a timeline. The legislation

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Speaker 2: like this. Don't want to predict the timeline because they're

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Speaker 2: notoriously difficult to get right. Unless you're dying within a

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks, they can be reasonably accurate then, apparently,

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Speaker 2: but any longer than that, you could imagine that a

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Speaker 2: doctor would tend to give you a longer timeline than is.

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Speaker 2: Then perhaps they think, because would you give the patient

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Speaker 2: the bad news that they're going to die in six

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Speaker 2: months when in fact you think it might be twelve,

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Speaker 2: you would you would tend to extend the timeline. But

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Speaker 2: anyway that, the bottom line is timelines are notoriously difficult

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Speaker 2: to predict, and notoriously difficult as too far as their

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Speaker 2: accuracy is concerned. And the fact is the only thing

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Speaker 2: a timeline does in the whole mix of safeguards in

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Speaker 2: VAD legislation is restrict the numbers of people who can apply.

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Speaker 2: It's not a safeguard in the sense that the safeguards

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Speaker 2: against coercion, the safeguards against competence, those safeguard are very

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Speaker 2: important to it in the sort of legislation. But a

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Speaker 2: timeline you've got to be predicted to die within twelve

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Speaker 2: months or less before you're eligible, is purely designed to

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Speaker 2: limit the numbers of people who can apply. Now, that's

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Speaker 2: the wrong philosophy to adopt in preparing legislation like this.

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Speaker 2: The legislation is designed to relieve suffering people who find

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Speaker 2: their suffering unbearable, so unbearable that they would prefer to die.

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Speaker 2: And what a timeline does is simply take the top

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Speaker 2: off that line of people who feel that their life

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Speaker 2: is unbearable and say no, you can't apply because you're

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Speaker 2: not close enough to death. It's just it's a cruel

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Speaker 2: criteria and it should not appear in the territory's law.

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Speaker 1: Well, and marshallte my understanding of this and this legislation

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Speaker 1: is that you have to be dying and you have

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Speaker 1: to be suffering to be able to access voluntary assisted dying.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, Absolutely, absolutely, and like.

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Speaker 1: That's a huge thing for somebody to be going through

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Speaker 1: to you know, to know that you're dying and to

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Speaker 1: be suffering. It's a hard choice for a person to make,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine, but it's their choice.

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Speaker 2: Well, you can imagine the doctor saying to someone, look,

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Speaker 2: I think you're going to live for two years, so

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Speaker 2: come back and see me in twelve months and we'll

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Speaker 2: see if you if your life has been as likely

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Speaker 2: to be shortened, and you may be then eligible. So

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Speaker 2: you go away for twelve months suffering just to fulfill

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Speaker 2: a timeline. Yeah, I mean, it's just cruel and should

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Speaker 2: be in the legislation.

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Speaker 1: Marshall, have you had any response from the Attorney General

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Speaker 1: law from the government on the concerns that you have

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Speaker 1: raised in this letter.

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Speaker 2: Yes. I received a response about forty eight hours after

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Speaker 2: my letter was delivered, acknowledging the receipt of the letter

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Speaker 2: and saying that my views would be taken into consideration

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Speaker 2: full stop.

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Speaker 1: All right, How would we go.

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Speaker 2: To just send it last week? Yeah? I think I

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Speaker 2: got I think I got her response on Friday and

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Speaker 2: I sent mine to her. I think it was Tuesday.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, please keep in contact with us and

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Speaker 1: let us know you know whether you hear anything more

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Speaker 1: or whether there is any further discussion. But I think

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Speaker 1: you're right, like I actually I think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: we need to make sure that this legislation is right

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Speaker 1: before it actually goes into the Parliament, so that there's

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, so that there's not amendments being made

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Speaker 1: and that there's not sort of I suppose the opportunity

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Speaker 1: that it's going to get you know, pushed aside or

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Speaker 1: not happen.

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Speaker 2: Well, hopefully the members twenty five members of the Legislative

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Speaker 2: Assembly will take seriously the fact that they've all been

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Speaker 2: given a conscience stote on this issue. So everyone of

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Speaker 2: them has the opportunity to put forward amendments if they

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Speaker 2: if they believe the legislation is so efficient that needs amending.

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Speaker 2: But also when they come to a vote on the

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Speaker 2: issue at the end of the day, on every clause

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Speaker 2: that they exercise their content and their constituents attitudes and

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Speaker 2: not follow any dictate around that's been spread around the

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Speaker 2: back corridors of government party rooms. This is a parliament

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Speaker 2: of twenty five independence will consider this legislation in the

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Speaker 2: end and they have control of it completely.

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Speaker 1: Well, Marshall Perrin, former Chief Minister of the Northern Territory,

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Speaker 1: and I know you have been an advocate for quite

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Speaker 1: some time. You're a pioneer of Australia's first voluntary assisted

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Speaker 1: dying law, but a long time advocate for compassionate end

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Speaker 1: of life choice. I really appreciate your time this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Katie, Thank you for the opportunity.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much