WEBVTT - Does Spotify have a local music problem?

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this this is.

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<v Speaker 2>The daily This is the daily.

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<v Speaker 1>Ohs oh, now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to the Daily OS. It's Friday, the fifth of December.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Emma Gillespie and Tam Klaski. Yesterday Spotify released its

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<v Speaker 1>annual wrapped feature for twenty twenty five. Now, this is

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<v Speaker 1>a yearly tradition I'm sure much of our audience is

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<v Speaker 1>familiar with, where millions of users get to see them

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<v Speaker 1>most listened to songs and artists for the year, among

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<v Speaker 1>plenty of other interesting stats. But alongside these personalized data drops,

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<v Speaker 1>Spotify also releases starts telling us about national listening trends.

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<v Speaker 1>And there's been a lot of discussion about one thing

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<v Speaker 1>this year, the absence of Australian artists from the top

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<v Speaker 1>of those lists. Today, we are going to explore why

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<v Speaker 1>this is the case and what we've learned earned from

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<v Speaker 1>Spotify rapp to twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 2>Five and what an interesting topic for us to dive

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<v Speaker 2>into on a Friday. It's got a bit of tech

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<v Speaker 2>to it, it's got a lot of culture and music,

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<v Speaker 2>and it really is centered around our national identity as

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<v Speaker 2>a music institution. Why don't we start with Spotify rapped

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<v Speaker 2>as an idea and as a product. If you aren't

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<v Speaker 2>engaged with it, give us a sense of what happens

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<v Speaker 2>on Spotify rap day.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so, just in case you were living under a

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<v Speaker 1>rock or you weren't on social media yesterday. Usually around

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<v Speaker 1>early December, every year, Spotify releases what it calls Rapped,

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<v Speaker 1>which is basically a summary of its users listening habits

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<v Speaker 1>over the past year. So users at an individual level

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<v Speaker 1>get to see their top artists, top songs, podcasts, how

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<v Speaker 1>many minutes they've listened to music, what percentile they're in at,

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of top end of fandom for their favorite artists,

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<v Speaker 1>A bunch of really interesting stats.

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<v Speaker 2>Just quickly, Who was your top artist this year?

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<v Speaker 1>Gang of youths? Of course?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, very cool? Mine was Sam Fender. Both quite similar

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<v Speaker 2>in the mismai we should hang.

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<v Speaker 1>Out yep, very aligned. And I've got to say Spotify

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<v Speaker 1>has gotten really good at packaging this data up, so

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<v Speaker 1>it releases it in the form of very sharable infographics.

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<v Speaker 1>They look really cool, and it's become this huge social

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<v Speaker 1>media moment. Millions of people post their Wrapped results to

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<v Speaker 1>their Instagram stories. That is how Spotify has designed it

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<v Speaker 1>and for a bit of context. In terms of scale,

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about two hundred and eighty one million paid

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<v Speaker 1>subscribers who are with Spotify globally and that includes some

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<v Speaker 1>thirteen million Aussie listeners.

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<v Speaker 2>So about half of Australia went through a Spotify wrapped

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<v Speaker 2>moment yesterday. We got the results. A new feature even

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<v Speaker 2>showed us how old the platform thinks we are based

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<v Speaker 2>on our listening habits.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep, that was a good one.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm twenty seven, which I was quite flatted with as

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<v Speaker 2>a thirty year old.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, my life flashed before my eyes I read that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm seventy.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, right, yeah, not good. I'll turn up the font

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<v Speaker 2>size on this script. What were some of the big

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<v Speaker 2>takeaways though?

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<v Speaker 1>In terms of the music, Yeah, so, the top artists

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<v Speaker 1>streamed by Australian listeners this year were Taylor Swift, followed

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<v Speaker 1>by Drake Morgan, Wolland, The Weekend and Billie Eilish. In

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<v Speaker 1>terms of songs, the number one tracks for Aussie listeners

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<v Speaker 1>were Ordinary by Alex Warren, followed by That's So True

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<v Speaker 1>by Gracie Abrams, Birds of a Feather by Billie Eilish,

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<v Speaker 1>Back to Friends by Somber and Bruno Mars, who rounded

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<v Speaker 1>out the top five for his track with Rose.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you look at the artists that have topped

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<v Speaker 2>both that song list but also the general artists list,

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<v Speaker 2>am I wrong in saying that they're all American?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, technically they're all North America, but you're not wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a mix of US and Canadian artists that dominate

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<v Speaker 1>both those lists. They don't include any Aussie performers. I

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<v Speaker 1>guess there might be a bit of a loophole with Rose,

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<v Speaker 1>the K pop singer. She was born in New Zealand

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<v Speaker 1>moved to Australia when she was eight, before moving to

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<v Speaker 1>Korea as a teenager to pursue her K pop career,

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<v Speaker 1>So I don't know, maybe there's a loophole there. But otherwise, yep,

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<v Speaker 1>all North American artists.

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<v Speaker 2>And the list is clearly dominated by the biggest names

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<v Speaker 2>in global music. I want to talk a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>more about what that means and what we can read

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<v Speaker 2>into that. Before we get there, though, what Ossie artists

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<v Speaker 2>did we listen to this year?

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<v Speaker 1>So along with these lists of most listen to artists

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<v Speaker 1>and songs overall, Spotify also crunched the numbers When it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to our top local artists, the Wiggles came in

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<v Speaker 1>at number one. Now I think you can imagine probably

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of parents out there streaming a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>Wiggles against their will. But congrats to the Wiggles. The

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<v Speaker 1>list also included the Kid laroi, ac DC, Hilltop Woods

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<v Speaker 1>and Tame Implor. Interestingly, the top local song for twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five was riptied by vance.

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<v Speaker 2>Joy, which is more than ten years old.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it came out in twenty thirteen. In fact, when

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<v Speaker 1>you look more closely at the top Local Songs list,

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<v Speaker 1>none of them are actually new releases from twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>That trend is also reflected in the most listened to

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<v Speaker 1>Local albums of the year as well, with two records

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<v Speaker 1>from the eighties making it into the top five. We

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<v Speaker 1>had Back in Black from Akadaka and Kick from in Excess.

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<v Speaker 2>It's quite a striking set of data because clearly, when

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<v Speaker 2>it comes to new music, Aussie listeners seem to be

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<v Speaker 2>favoring international tracks. If they do return to their local

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<v Speaker 2>music roots, it's in more of a nostalgic sense, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like it's either for children's entertainment, trying to make the

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<v Speaker 2>kids be quiet in the back of the car, or

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<v Speaker 2>it's a throwback to their childhood in eighties or more

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<v Speaker 2>recent episode of high school back in twenty thirteen.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean that is certainly how things seem from

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<v Speaker 1>the Spotify data. We'll get a little bit more into

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of critical analysis around that, but it's not

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<v Speaker 1>as though this trend has taken us fully by surprise. Sam.

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<v Speaker 1>You will know that The Daily Os actually worked with

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<v Speaker 1>Creative Australia earlier this year to look into listening behaviors

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<v Speaker 1>of Ozzie fans and the findings from that were really interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Only eight percent of the ten thousand top streamed artists

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia were home grown.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>That's despite thirty three percent of respondents saying they actively

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<v Speaker 1>seek out Australian music.

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<v Speaker 2>So let me throw that back to you. So one

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<v Speaker 2>in three said they're looking for Ozsie music, but only

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<v Speaker 2>eight percent of the ten thousand most streamed artists are Aussie.

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<v Speaker 2>Ye did that research suggest why that could be the case?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Creative Australia looked into discoverability. This is a really

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<v Speaker 1>important part of the conversation and according to its report,

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<v Speaker 1>ninety eight percent of Ossie's discover music through streaming platforms,

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<v Speaker 1>sixty six percent find it through social media, but the

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<v Speaker 1>report found that discovery tends to skew heavily towards international artists.

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<v Speaker 1>Now that's what we're seeing reflected in the Spotify numbers.

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<v Speaker 2>And when you say discovery in a Spotify sense or

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<v Speaker 2>any of the streaming apps, really what we mean by

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<v Speaker 2>that are things like new Songs of the week or

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<v Speaker 2>things that come across your homepage. They might be in

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<v Speaker 2>a Fresh Finds playlist. Yeah, that's what you mean by discovery.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, absolutely, And these algorithms put together personalized playlists that

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<v Speaker 1>are updated regularly to the DJ and the at constry

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<v Speaker 1>and they learn from your listening patterns and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately it's the platforms that decide which music to prioritize

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<v Speaker 1>in those playlists. Now, one of the key findings from

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<v Speaker 1>Creative Australia was that there is limited visibility of local

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<v Speaker 1>artists and that is affecting discovery. Young people said they

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<v Speaker 1>want to discover more Aussie music, but they just aren't

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<v Speaker 1>sure where to find it. In fact, sixty six percent

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<v Speaker 1>said they want to discover more Aussie music, and forty

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<v Speaker 1>two percent said they would even pay for a streaming

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<v Speaker 1>platform dedicated to Australian music. So the interest is there,

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<v Speaker 1>but they don't know where to find it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, woll I'd love to see how a local only

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<v Speaker 2>streaming platform would actually go in market and to see

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<v Speaker 2>interesting people would actually sign up to that. Are young

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<v Speaker 2>people less interested in music overall? And did we kind

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<v Speaker 2>of get a sense from these stats of if we're

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<v Speaker 2>listening to as much music as ever?

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<v Speaker 1>The research shows us that young people are really still

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<v Speaker 1>interested in music, they really care about it, and they're

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<v Speaker 1>willing to spend money on music they enjoy. They're paying

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<v Speaker 1>to see live gigs even with economic pressures. They're prioritizing

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<v Speaker 1>spending money on live music experiences. So it's not that

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<v Speaker 1>they're disengaged from music. But there does seem to be

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<v Speaker 1>a disconnect between live music patterns and Australian streaming patterns.

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<v Speaker 2>And we know that the kind of live music is

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<v Speaker 2>a bit downstream. Like you discover the artists first, you

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<v Speaker 2>begin to be obsessed with them exactly, then you go

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<v Speaker 2>and buy a constant ticket and a T shirt. How

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<v Speaker 2>have local artists responded to these discoverability concerns, particularly in

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<v Speaker 2>light of yesterday's data.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's no news story that many musicians have these

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<v Speaker 1>long standing complaints about how Spotify and other similar platforms

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<v Speaker 1>pay their artists. There are those concerns over discoverability algorithms,

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<v Speaker 1>and so this data has really reignited that conversation. It's ongoing.

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<v Speaker 1>But we know some Ossie artists have actually been leaving

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<v Speaker 1>Spotify or deciding not to release any new music through

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<v Speaker 1>the platform, and this is a really important part of

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<v Speaker 1>the context. So King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard, one

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<v Speaker 1>of Australia's most successful exports, actually removed their entire catalog

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<v Speaker 1>from Spotify a few months ago. That was in protest

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<v Speaker 1>of the Spotify CEO and co founder, who's been criticized

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<v Speaker 1>over his investments in a defense company that manufactures AI

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<v Speaker 1>military technology. Australian musician David Brady also left the platform

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<v Speaker 1>around the same time for a combination of the reasons

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<v Speaker 1>that I've touched on. Bridy wrote about his decision in

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<v Speaker 1>The Guardian and said that basically Spotify pays a artists

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<v Speaker 1>less than one cent per stream, which he called quote

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<v Speaker 1>insulting and completely unsustainable. Brady wrote this leads to a

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<v Speaker 1>situation where only the independently wealthy can create music, assuming

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<v Speaker 1>they're able to fight off the AI generated music currently

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<v Speaker 1>crowding onto the streaming platforms. He continued, quote, the removal

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<v Speaker 1>of my works won't make any significant dent in the

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<v Speaker 1>company's profits. It won't change my earnings much either, but

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<v Speaker 1>I can no longer be complicit. So a combination of

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<v Speaker 1>factors there that he touched on.

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<v Speaker 2>So a big day for Spotify. They obviously get a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of social media attention with everyone sharing their wrapped

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<v Speaker 2>kind of findings of the year, but they've had to

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<v Speaker 2>answer some hard questions as well. How did the company

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<v Speaker 2>respond to these really tricky questions around local music and

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<v Speaker 2>the listener behavior of Australian users.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we did get a statement from Ben Watts. He

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<v Speaker 1>Spotify's head of music for the Australian New Zealand region,

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<v Speaker 1>and he acknowledged that global artists have an enormous reach

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<v Speaker 1>in all markets. Really, but he told TDA that this

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<v Speaker 1>year we have seen a healthy mix of both homegrown

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<v Speaker 1>and international music. He said local audiences are connecting with

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<v Speaker 1>that music and its quote achieving remarkable momentum of its own.

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<v Speaker 1>What's continued to TDA that quote Spotify recognizes that it

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<v Speaker 1>has a key role to play in supporting Australia's music ecosystem.

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<v Speaker 1>In twenty twenty four alone, we paid over three hundred

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<v Speaker 1>million dollars to Australian rights holders, with more than half

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<v Speaker 1>going to independent artists and labels. What said, Australian music

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<v Speaker 1>is also traveling further than ever, and their global data

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<v Speaker 1>shows that open platforms like Spotify quote create opportunities for

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<v Speaker 1>local music to be discovered across the globe.

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<v Speaker 2>I think this leaves the Australian music industry in a

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting spot because it's clear that the core pillars

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<v Speaker 2>of what makes the music industry great and what makes

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<v Speaker 2>an artist great have changed, as with so many other industries,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly by to technology. What's your view on where things

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<v Speaker 2>kind of stand for Ossie music going forward?

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<v Speaker 1>We have this really complicated context. You know, we've shifted

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<v Speaker 1>away from radio plays and physical record sales as it

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<v Speaker 1>means to measure the success of artists. We have so

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<v Speaker 1>much connectedness with the world, and you know, we can

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<v Speaker 1>listen to artists from any country really within seconds. There

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<v Speaker 1>are some really positive stories to be told though, and

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's important to reflect on that Australian dance music,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, has seen huge growth. Streams have increased by

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<v Speaker 1>more than four hundred and nine million compared to last

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<v Speaker 1>year according to Spotify. And I mean look at rufus

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<v Speaker 1>Dusol a Sam Kazowski special. The Aussie trio recently set

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<v Speaker 1>a new record for the most tickets sold by an

0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:50.679
<v Speaker 1>artist or group for an electronic live tour after seven

0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.679
<v Speaker 1>hundred and fifty thousand people attended their shows this year

0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.400
<v Speaker 1>three quarters of a million. They're one of three Assiacs

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<v Speaker 1>nominated for a Grammy at Next Ceremony, along with Ammal

0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.120
<v Speaker 1>and the Sniffers and tame Im Parlor. Of course, so

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<v Speaker 1>we know local talent is punching above its weight on

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<v Speaker 1>the world stage. It's just whether or not new talent

0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:12.600
<v Speaker 1>can emerge. So I think we're going to see this

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<v Speaker 1>conversation continue. Discoverability conversations are certainly not going anywhere. We

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<v Speaker 1>know young people want to find and support ossie artists,

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<v Speaker 1>they just need better pathways to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>And that was a fantastic discussion. And I think that

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<v Speaker 2>if you want more of this, I think everyone should

0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.200
<v Speaker 2>probably subscribe to your TVA Culture newsletter.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh thank you, Sam It's a really good.

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<v Speaker 2>Read because it takes us a little bit further than

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<v Speaker 2>usual on some of these cultural stories. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's a great example of this chat because you've got

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<v Speaker 2>Spotify wrapped out there in the world. Yesterday it would

0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.880
<v Speaker 2>have been on everybody's social feeds. I love that you've

0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.480
<v Speaker 2>taken us one layer deeper. So thank you for that chat.

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<v Speaker 1>A pleasure, Sam, thanks for sharing it with me.

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<v Speaker 2>And thank you for joining us on the Daily os

0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.400
<v Speaker 2>this week. It's been a massive week of news here

0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:58.520
<v Speaker 2>with interviews and streaming discussions. We've got a whole big

0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:00.880
<v Speaker 2>week of news coming up for you next week as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Until then, we'll be back with the headlines in the

0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:09.520
<v Speaker 2>afternoon and chat to you later. My name is Lily

0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.000
<v Speaker 2>Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkatin woman from

0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:17.360
<v Speaker 2>Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is

0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.880
<v Speaker 2>recorded on the lands of the Gadighl people and pays

0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.120
<v Speaker 2>respect to all Aboriginal and Torres s right island and nations.

0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.360
<v Speaker 2>We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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<v Speaker 2>both past and present,