Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Lady Vanishers the catch up series,
Speaker 1: Episode two. I'm Alison Sandy.
Speaker 2: And I'm Brian Seymour. By the time we reached episode four,
Speaker 2: people were starting to take notice. We'd amassed more than
Speaker 2: one million listeners and many were sending in information, ideas
Speaker 2: and potential leads.
Speaker 1: As you'll hear from the following snippet, it was around
Speaker 1: this time that we started to encounter difficulties accessing information.
Speaker 2: Just a quick update ahead of episode four, which scrutinizes
Speaker 2: the reasons why and how Marion vanished as there have
Speaker 2: been many developments since the start of our podcast, not
Speaker 2: the least of which is a looming legal battle involving
Speaker 2: Marion's daughter Sally and New South Wales Police over just
Speaker 2: how much information Sally is entitled to under freedom of
Speaker 2: information laws. The matter is now before the New South
Speaker 2: Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal, with a hearing scheduled for
Speaker 2: late June. You'll see by this episode just how conflicting
Speaker 2: the information into Marion's disappearance is, and it's becoming increasingly
Speaker 2: clear that finding the truth will come at a cost.
Speaker 2: Now onto the rest of episode four, it was a
Speaker 2: pivotal one, so we're going to replay the bulk of it.
Speaker 2: After checking with a friend in Customs and thanks to
Speaker 2: a helpful bank employee, Sally determined that someone had returned
Speaker 2: to Australia through Sydney Airport on Marion's passport on August
Speaker 2: and for weeks afterwards, large sums of money were drained
Speaker 2: from her bank account, mostly at Byron Bay. Sally canvassed
Speaker 2: the tourist town with Marion's photo without luck. CCTV wasn't
Speaker 2: as prevalent or as sophisticated in nineteen ninety seven as
Speaker 2: it is today. There was no security video near the
Speaker 2: Barn Bay atm or Bank branch where Marion's money was withdrawn.
Speaker 2: But years later, Stanley would recount in a twenty ten
Speaker 2: police statement her dealings with one of the bank tellers.
Speaker 3: Showed him a photo of mum and I recall him
Speaker 3: shaking the photo and saying something like that rings the bell.
Speaker 3: He took the photo into another room to show the manager.
Speaker 3: His body language was different everyone else's. I'd showing the
Speaker 3: photo to that day, and when he came out, he
Speaker 3: took a photocopy of Mum's photo and asked me what
Speaker 3: he wanted me to tell her if he saw her.
Speaker 3: This struck me as being quite strange, and I got
Speaker 3: the impression that he knew something about mum that he
Speaker 3: wasn't prepared to tell me.
Speaker 1: On October twenty second, nineteen ninety seven, Sally first reported
Speaker 1: her mother's disappearance to police at Byron Bay Station. The
Speaker 1: officer logged the matter as an occurrence, not as a
Speaker 1: missing person's matter, and if you look through the police
Speaker 1: files on this case, there are two dates as well
Speaker 1: as October. The date of the occurrence is also listed
Speaker 1: as August the second, nineteen ninety seven. That was the
Speaker 1: day after Marion's last phone contact. But Sally is adamant
Speaker 1: she went to Byron Bay Police on October the twenty second,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven. It wasn't long before she got a
Speaker 1: call back. The following is from Sally's twenty ten police statement.
Speaker 3: In a matter of days, I got a phone call
Speaker 3: from Byron Bay Police. He had told me that he
Speaker 3: had located my mum and she didn't want anyone to
Speaker 3: know where she is or what she was doing. I
Speaker 3: think I asked him more about where she was and
Speaker 3: how he found her, but he told me he couldn't
Speaker 3: give me any more information because Mum had indicated she
Speaker 3: didn't want contact with anyone. I was absolutely slob aghasted
Speaker 3: and quite upset.
Speaker 1: But unbeknownst to Sally at the time, no authority had
Speaker 1: actually seen Marion in the flesh or spoken with her
Speaker 1: face to face to verify that she had really been found,
Speaker 1: and there was no official police record of the phone
Speaker 1: call taking place. Unhappy with the way police were handling
Speaker 1: the matter, Marion's father, Jack approached the Salvation Army's Family
Speaker 1: Tracing service to try to track her down. This is
Speaker 1: an excerpt from the notes he gave them.
Speaker 4: Some details of Marion's disappearance. Pay particular attention to the
Speaker 4: dates departed Brisbane twenty third of June nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 4: reincreased second of August nineteen ninety seven. The last posted
Speaker 4: from Tunbridge, England was dated thirtieth of August nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 1: So Marion's last postcard was sent four weeks after she
Speaker 1: apparently arrived back in Australia. This had Jack raising questions.
Speaker 5: Did she leave the card for someone else to post?
Speaker 5: Was it Marion who arrived back on the second of
Speaker 5: August nineteen ninety seven. There's been no unpleasantness in the
Speaker 5: family and the behaviour's foreign to Marian. Did Marian come
Speaker 5: back from England?
Speaker 1: He mentioned the money that had repeatedly been taken from
Speaker 1: Marion's account and expresses disappointment with how police were handling
Speaker 1: the case.
Speaker 5: I asked what identification had been made. They said that
Speaker 5: the bank's security had contacted Marian on the phone and
Speaker 5: had been told that she didn't want her whereabouts known.
Speaker 5: They said that the bank security were like police and
Speaker 5: they were satisfied with their identification, and that if I
Speaker 5: wanted to probe further, get a private detective and start
Speaker 5: at Barron Bay.
Speaker 1: At the time, the Salvation Army requested a thirty dollar
Speaker 1: fee for their tracing services. On February twelve, nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 1: Betty Brown from the Salvation Army Family Tracing Service sent
Speaker 1: a letter to Marion's father confirming his inquiry had been received.
Speaker 6: Please be assured of our interests and concern. Your inquiry
Speaker 6: will receive our best attention. May God bless you yours, sincerely,
Speaker 6: Betty Brown.
Speaker 1: Just five weeks later, the Salvation Army Tracing Service sent
Speaker 1: Marion's father another letter claiming his daughter had been identified
Speaker 1: with drawing money at a different bank, and that she
Speaker 1: spoke of starting a new life. The family had assumed
Speaker 1: that letter was thrown out, and for more than twenty
Speaker 1: years they based their assumptions that Marian was identified on
Speaker 1: the contents of that missing letter, missing until now. After
Speaker 1: episode one of this podcast aired, Sally's cousin living in
Speaker 1: Japan searched his family box of records and found the
Speaker 1: letter from the Salvos to Marion's father, dated March eighteenth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 6: Dear mister Wilson, just a short note to confirm our
Speaker 6: recent phone conversation and say that I have been talking
Speaker 6: at length to police missing persons, who in turn contacted
Speaker 6: the security officer at the Colonial State Bank at Ashmore
Speaker 6: at Southport, and after lengthy conversations, were able to advise
Speaker 6: that it was definitely your daughter Marion who went in
Speaker 6: and withdrew the balance of the money at Ashmore on
Speaker 6: the fifteenth of October nineteen ninety and spoke of starting
Speaker 6: a new life.
Speaker 1: Yes, the letter does say nineteen ninety. It is difficult
Speaker 1: to understand how that could be a typo nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: instead of nineteen ninety seven, as the number seven and
Speaker 1: zero are not next to each other on the keyboard
Speaker 1: or number pad, but if it should read October fifteen,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, this letter is saying Marian went to
Speaker 1: another bank near her old school at Southport, where she
Speaker 1: could have easily been recognized, more than two months after
Speaker 1: her elaborate efforts to vanish, and one month after spending
Speaker 1: weeks withdrawing money from her account at the Commonwealth Bank
Speaker 1: in Byron Bay. The letter goes on.
Speaker 6: I do hope that eventually Marian makes contact again, as
Speaker 6: it must be distressing for you to be totally out
Speaker 6: of contact with her. We are returning the photographs loan
Speaker 6: for the inquiry. May God bless you, Yours, sincerely, Betty Brown.
Speaker 1: So had Salvation Army investigators really tracked Marion down or
Speaker 1: had they just spoken to the missing person staff who
Speaker 1: claimed they'd spoken to a bank security officer who apparently
Speaker 1: confirmed her identity without any details as to how Ultimately.
Speaker 1: At the time, that letter was enough for Marian's parents
Speaker 1: and her sister didri.
Speaker 7: They were quite sure that it was Marion, and they
Speaker 7: were sure that it was Marian because she'd actually asked
Speaker 7: them some questions which somebody who wasn't Marian wouldn't just known.
Speaker 7: They told my father that Marian was angry at Sally
Speaker 7: because she had an agreement with Sally that Fey would
Speaker 7: sell a carbon put that money in Marian's account, and
Speaker 7: Marian was angry at Sally because she was expecting that
Speaker 7: money to go in and it had gone in. So
Speaker 7: my father decided, well, marry would He's the only one
Speaker 7: who knew about that, so I think he was reasonably
Speaker 7: satisfy good that they hadn't actually found Marian. And she
Speaker 7: said quite openly that she wanted to start a new life.
Speaker 7: She didn't want to have anything to do with any
Speaker 7: of her present family. You know, so from police descriptions
Speaker 7: and salveish Nami, she wasn't really missing. She just didn't
Speaker 7: want to be found. She just wanted to go off
Speaker 7: by herself and start again and start clean. And she
Speaker 7: should have a right. She's fifty two or something at
Speaker 7: the time, she had a right to do that if
Speaker 7: she wanted to hurtful it is, yes, very and it
Speaker 7: was devastating for my mum and dad, but that's what
Speaker 7: she wanted to do. What can you do? You have
Speaker 7: to accept it.
Speaker 1: Before Marion left, Sally had agreed to sell her mother's
Speaker 1: car if she could and deposit the money into her account.
Speaker 1: She says she sold the car for seven five hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: This is from a statement to police.
Speaker 3: In a fairly short period of time, my grandfather told
Speaker 3: me that the family tracing service had located Mum and
Speaker 3: she said something like you can tell them to stop
Speaker 3: looking for me and Byron Bay because I am far
Speaker 3: far away and tell Sally I'm angry with her for
Speaker 3: not putting money in my account for the car. I
Speaker 3: had talked to my grandfather to work out what to
Speaker 3: do with the money. She didn't want me to put
Speaker 3: it into her account if someone else was using her account,
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, I was feeling guilty and
Speaker 3: keeping the money from her grandfather told me to keep
Speaker 3: the money for myself.
Speaker 2: Sally also traced Marion's Medicare and private health insurance receipts,
Speaker 2: finding out which medical procedures she'd had in the months
Speaker 2: before she went overseas. There was no major health issue
Speaker 2: that she could identify, although there is one irregularity. Marion's
Speaker 2: Medicare card was used in the small New South Wales
Speaker 2: city of Grafton on the thirteenth of September nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2: A police check with Medicare has confirmed this. Grafton is
Speaker 2: about one hundred and sixty kilometers southwest of Byron Bay,
Speaker 2: which is where Marion's bank account was being drained around
Speaker 2: the same time. Salie can't recall her mother having any
Speaker 2: friends or relatives in that area. Believing her mother didn't
Speaker 2: want to be found and disappointed and hurt, Sally decided
Speaker 2: to get on with her life. On October the twenty fourth,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight, she married Chris Laden at the chapel
Speaker 2: of the Southport School, Marion's old workplace, but even though
Speaker 2: her mother had helped her book the chapel before her trip,
Speaker 2: she didn't show up for her daughter's big day. On
Speaker 2: the first of July two thousand and three, Sally's grandfather,
Speaker 2: Marian's father, Jack, died. His health was failing when his
Speaker 2: daughter went overseas, and she was well aware of that,
Speaker 2: but Marian did not attend his funeral. On July twenty
Speaker 2: and two thousand and one, Sally gave birth to her
Speaker 2: first child, Ella, Marian's first grandchild, but again there was
Speaker 2: no word from the brand new Nana. Then, on March sixth,
Speaker 2: two thousand and two, tragedy struck Sally's brother, Owen, Marion's
Speaker 2: beloved son, took his own life. Owen had his demons,
Speaker 2: He'd struggled with drugs. He was just twenty seven years old.
Speaker 2: Sally didn't know how Owen had been coping with Marion's disappearance.
Speaker 2: It was something they didn't talk about, but suddenly Sally
Speaker 2: wanted to find her mother. In two thousand and three,
Speaker 2: Sally got back in touch with the Salvation Army's Family
Speaker 2: Tracing Service and sought help to find her mum. She's
Speaker 2: kept all of the correspondents.
Speaker 8: April fifteen, two thousand and three, Dear missus Laden, thank
Speaker 8: you for returning your signed application form to the Family
Speaker 8: Tracing Service. We want to ensure you that every effort
Speaker 8: will be made in our search.
Speaker 2: For three years, the Salvos carried out extensive searches in
Speaker 2: Australia and overseas. They encouraged Sally to do an interview
Speaker 2: and a story with Woman's Day magazine.
Speaker 9: Sally's story, Where Are You Mum?
Speaker 1: Seven years ago?
Speaker 9: Thirty year old Sally Leyden's mother married.
Speaker 8: February seven, two thousand and six, Dear missus Leyden.
Speaker 2: But eventually the Salvation Army had to admit defeat and.
Speaker 8: To indicate that unfortunately, so far, all of our searches
Speaker 8: have proved.
Speaker 2: Negative, Marion could not be found.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, around the tenth anniversary of
Speaker 1: Marion's disappearance, Sally contacted the Australian Federal Police Missing Persons Unit.
Speaker 1: She spoke with the then team leader, Rebecca Cotts.
Speaker 10: I was working back late one night actually, and I
Speaker 10: took a phone call and on our one eight hundred line,
Speaker 10: the free call line into the Missing Person Center, and
Speaker 10: it was Sally. And Sally introduced herself and wanted to
Speaker 10: tell me a story about her mother and who was
Speaker 10: missing to her and her life. So we spoke for
Speaker 10: quite a few hours that night, and I think, if
Speaker 10: my recollection's correct, I probably spoke to heruntil about eight thirty
Speaker 10: that night, where she had explained the entirety of her
Speaker 10: understanding of the story of her mother's her mother's missingness,
Speaker 10: and what she had done to date, and you know,
Speaker 10: every sort of bitten piece of her recollection. So we
Speaker 10: struck up an immediate rapport in that few hours She
Speaker 10: was very poignant, had a lot of detail around what
Speaker 10: had happened with the case, but was adamant that she
Speaker 10: didn't think enough was being done around where her mother was.
Speaker 11: Obviously, there's so many missing cases every year and you
Speaker 11: can't look in them into the level that you did
Speaker 11: with this one. What made this one different?
Speaker 10: I guess in my position at the time, cases that
Speaker 10: I did have the privilege of dealing with, I did
Speaker 10: tend to get very involved with because I felt that
Speaker 10: the better I knew a case, the better I could
Speaker 10: represent a family in the media, and the more I
Speaker 10: could understand what had happened. Sally was a bit different,
Speaker 10: where everything about her and her case, as far as
Speaker 10: her mother's concern, was very detailed, and she kept such
Speaker 10: great records on things. I guess she was very presentable
Speaker 10: the case. It seemed so obvious to me, and the
Speaker 10: fact that she was able to articulate.
Speaker 12: It very clearly made it easier for me to.
Speaker 10: Not just want to get involved, but easier for me
Speaker 10: to see that there could be an outcome to the case.
Speaker 12: I guess.
Speaker 11: So when you say it was quite obvious, can you
Speaker 11: explain what your take on the case was.
Speaker 12: From the detail that Sally was able to present.
Speaker 10: It seemed fairly obvious to me that this was an
Speaker 10: adult going missing of their own volition, which happens very regularly,
Speaker 10: where somebody chooses to walk out on their life because
Speaker 10: there's issues in their life they don't want to face,
Speaker 10: so they can't face and things like that. So it's
Speaker 10: not illegal, obviously in Australia go missing as an adult
Speaker 10: or to walk out on your life. So I felt
Speaker 10: very early on in the piece that this may have
Speaker 10: been the case.
Speaker 1: With her mother, Rebecca said that Marian's case will be
Speaker 1: profiled for Missing Persons Week in two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1: Sally agreed to front the media campaign, but at the
Speaker 1: very last minute she was dropped from the project.
Speaker 12: After speaking with her.
Speaker 10: Initially, I had gone to my coordinator at the time
Speaker 10: and sort approval to go up to Brisbane and meet
Speaker 10: with Sally because I felt that there was a really
Speaker 10: good story here and possibly something that could heighten the
Speaker 10: profile of missing persons and the issues around people wanting
Speaker 10: to walk away from their life. So I went up
Speaker 10: and I met extensively with Sally face to face, and
Speaker 10: I definitely agreed with her that there was a situation
Speaker 10: here that I felt we could really support, get behind
Speaker 10: and raise the awareness of that. After coming back to Canberra,
Speaker 10: I then presented to the States and Territories case that
Speaker 10: I wanted to promote for Missing Persons Week, that being
Speaker 10: Marion Barter, and was advised by New South Wales Police
Speaker 10: that we couldn't follow through with that for investative reasons.
Speaker 10: Those reasons were never followed through or conveyed through to us.
Speaker 1: What it seemed to come down to was that ten
Speaker 1: years earlier, someone claiming to be from the New South
Speaker 1: Wales Police told Sally that Marian had been located. Sally
Speaker 1: received the following email from the AFP, the Australian Federal Police.
Speaker 9: Dear Sally, I would like to confirm the details of
Speaker 9: the discussion you and I had yesterday regarding the decision
Speaker 9: to withdraw the use of your mother's story for this
Speaker 9: year's launch. We cannot utilize the story for National Missing
Speaker 9: Persons Week two thousand and seven due to the current
Speaker 9: sensitivity of the case. I explained yesterday that we need
Speaker 9: to respect the privacy of both yourself and your mother,
Speaker 9: given that it appears that your mum has been located
Speaker 9: by New South Wales Police, and that at those times
Speaker 9: your mum had decided not to resume contact with your family.
Speaker 9: I also wanted to acknowledge the hard work and amazing
Speaker 9: dedication you've made in trying to locate your mother over
Speaker 9: the last ten years. I hope that the current investigation
Speaker 9: gives you the results you've been waiting for so long
Speaker 9: to achieve. I'm also hoping in the future that other
Speaker 9: media opportunities may arise that would be more suitable to
Speaker 9: your story. Please let me know if you think this
Speaker 9: is an option for you. If you require any further
Speaker 9: information of the details surrounding your mother's case, you can
Speaker 9: contact the new South Wales Police officer currently responsible for
Speaker 9: the investigation. As always, both myself and the staff of
Speaker 9: the unit are available to you for whatever inquiries or
Speaker 9: advice you may need. Kind regards.
Speaker 1: Sally was extremely disappointed and sent an email back to
Speaker 1: the AFP on July twenty third, two thousand and seven.
Speaker 13: Hello, I am very sad to read your email. My family, myself,
Speaker 13: and my mum's many friends still this opportunity of hope,
Speaker 13: a great chance to locate my mum and hope to
Speaker 13: have her come home safely. I was very surprised by
Speaker 13: a phone call from one senior comfortable from Missing Persons,
Speaker 13: New South Wales on the eleventh of the seventh to
Speaker 13: hear that it is their opinion that my mother is
Speaker 13: not a missing person just because she apparently said she
Speaker 13: didn't want to be found ten years ago. I say apparently,
Speaker 13: as the questions I was asked by the Senior Constable
Speaker 13: have led me to believe that New Southwest Police have
Speaker 13: no records of who it was who took my report
Speaker 13: at Byron Day ten years ago or who called me
Speaker 13: to advise me that my mom did not wish to
Speaker 13: be found. Due to this, I will be a requesting
Speaker 13: full documentation from New Southwals Police Missing Persons in it
Speaker 13: to show me evidence that my report was handled correctly
Speaker 13: ten years ago. This doubt arose when I was asked
Speaker 13: several times by the Senior Constable did I remember the
Speaker 13: person who took my report or who it was who
Speaker 13: called me to say that they had found her, of
Speaker 13: which I cannot recall after ten years. The Senior Constable
Speaker 13: then said quote, I need to find out who took
Speaker 13: the report and who told you they had found her,
Speaker 13: being strange to me.
Speaker 3: As I would have thought this would all be on record.
Speaker 3: I also found it strange to be asked again of
Speaker 3: my mother's details, of which I gave in my report
Speaker 3: ten years ago.
Speaker 13: Incidentally, now, six months of hard planning trimarly phone calls,
Speaker 13: emails and planning around having a baby to come down
Speaker 13: to camp Or Sydney and Melbourne for the launch of
Speaker 13: Missing Persons Week, I now have been pulled from the
Speaker 13: launch to the matters within the New Southwest Police. I'll
Speaker 13: be asking the Senior Constable why this is the case.
Speaker 13: I do thank you very much for your help, Sincerely,
Speaker 13: Sally Laden.
Speaker 1: Sally's email to the AFP was then forwarded to the
Speaker 1: New South Wales Police.
Speaker 9: Dear, I've been asked to make sure that you have
Speaker 9: all of the information that attains to Sally Layden's case
Speaker 9: file information. I received this email on Monday, kind regards.
Speaker 1: What followed was an email trail between the two agencies.
Speaker 1: We've acquired the correspondence through a Freedom of information application.
Speaker 1: Many names and paragraphs and the documents have been redacted,
Speaker 1: so it can be a little difficult to follow. This
Speaker 1: is what we've managed to glean. On July twenty seventh,
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, an inspector in the New South
Speaker 1: Wales Missing Persons Unit responded to the AFP.
Speaker 14: Thanks.
Speaker 15: It appears as though Sally is seeking a scapegoat for
Speaker 15: this issue. I'm led to believe that only as recently
Speaker 15: as in the past months, her mother was spoken with
Speaker 15: and refused to make contact with her daughter. What was
Speaker 15: done is totally correct. I await her submission.
Speaker 1: Then, on Friday, August tenth, two thousand and seven, the
Speaker 1: following email was sent from the AFP. It's not known
Speaker 1: to whom, as the names and email addresses have been
Speaker 1: blacked out. It may, however, be an internal email for
Speaker 1: someone else within the AFP.
Speaker 16: Following on from receiving this email, I've phoned to try
Speaker 16: and clarify some of the information he had, as I
Speaker 16: knew it was incorrect. Some of his comments were as follows,
Speaker 16: as I have been informed by her mother was located
Speaker 16: recently again and doesn't want anything to do with her family.
Speaker 1: The next two points have been blacked out entirely.
Speaker 16: Then there's this, after several other completely inappropriate comments. I
Speaker 16: let know that Sally's mother had not been located recently
Speaker 16: and that maybe the information he had received around this
Speaker 16: was incorrect again.
Speaker 1: A large section comprising several lines has been edited out
Speaker 1: before The following.
Speaker 16: Has made many inappropriate comments to Sally, such as the
Speaker 16: New South Wales Police are trying to fix what the
Speaker 16: AFP can't do. Another reducted section. Then hope this helps you.
Speaker 16: Good luck with your confrontation.
Speaker 1: So what does this all mean? Was the AFP at
Speaker 1: odds with the New South Wales Police on this case?
Speaker 1: Why and has anyone really ever located Marian? If so,
Speaker 1: who did, when and how.
Speaker 2: With the advent of social media, Sally found a new forum.
Speaker 2: She set up a Facebook page called Missing Person Marion
Speaker 2: Barter and detailed her mother's case, appealing for anyone with
Speaker 2: information to come forward.
Speaker 3: Missing persons Marion Barter, aged fifty one years old.
Speaker 2: There were plenty of messages of support from former students,
Speaker 2: acquaintances and even strangers.
Speaker 8: I'm devastated.
Speaker 6: She was my choir drama teacher at Springwood Public. I
Speaker 6: remember her so well because she went above and beyond
Speaker 6: the call.
Speaker 2: It was through a message posted to this Facebook site
Speaker 2: that Sally discovered Marion was not on the national Missing
Speaker 2: Person's list.
Speaker 17: I had a lady private message man and said, I've
Speaker 17: just looked at the missing person's list and your mum's
Speaker 17: not on there. I went, what what.
Speaker 7: Do you mean she's not on there?
Speaker 17: Way, I went on there and sure enough, she wasn't
Speaker 17: on there.
Speaker 1: Sally says she contacted Rebecca from the Australian Federal Police,
Speaker 1: who claims Marion was possibly never on the register.
Speaker 12: No, so she.
Speaker 10: Wasn't on our register to start with. So Sally was
Speaker 10: asking for her mother to both be uploaded to our
Speaker 10: national database, but also then be promoted and seek media
Speaker 10: attention to raise awareness of her missingness.
Speaker 12: As a part of our protocol.
Speaker 10: I then contacted New South Wales Police to seek permission
Speaker 10: to be able to do that, Like we would with
Speaker 10: any missing person's case. The AFP doesn't own those investigations
Speaker 10: nor the rights to promote them. They have to seek
Speaker 10: permission from the owning investigative team. With that, New South
Speaker 10: Wales Police came back and said, no, we couldn't promote
Speaker 10: the case. We couldn't add her to the database for
Speaker 10: reasons best known to the investigators.
Speaker 11: Would you have liked to have been able to keep
Speaker 11: pursuing it.
Speaker 10: Yes, I was obviously very handstrung by the fact that
Speaker 10: our team were not police officers, and we were not investigators.
Speaker 10: I just would have loved to have been part of
Speaker 10: finding those answers for Sally, as I think at the
Speaker 10: very least that's what she deserves. I did find it
Speaker 10: really frustrating when I couldn't then follow up with a
Speaker 10: lot of things, because I felt that there was answers
Speaker 10: that could have been sought from different avenues. But ultimately
Speaker 10: I think Sally just deserves to know.
Speaker 12: Either way.
Speaker 1: The thing is. Sally specifically had the police file changed
Speaker 1: from an occurrence as it was listed in nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: seven to a missing person case in two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1: An email we acquired through freedom of information proves this.
Speaker 1: It's dated July eleventh, two thousand and seven, and it's
Speaker 1: from an officer in the New South Wales Missing Persons Unit.
Speaker 1: All names apart from Sally's have been reducted.
Speaker 11: It states on.
Speaker 18: Twenty two ten, nineteen ninety seven, Sally Barta, the daughter
Speaker 18: of attended at Byron Bay Police station in regards to
Speaker 18: her mother. Police at the time created an event as
Speaker 18: an occurrence only and not as a missing person. From
Speaker 18: the sixth of the seventh, two thousand and seven, has
Speaker 18: been recorded as a missing person and is being investigated
Speaker 18: as such. Senior Constable.
Speaker 2: Sally says her mother, Marian was on the missing person's database.
Speaker 2: The person who decided to remove Marian from the list.
Speaker 19: Gary sheran On, Detective Senior Constable at Moron by detectives.
Speaker 2: When was she removed from the database or delisted as
Speaker 2: missing from memory?
Speaker 19: It was around twenty twelve and it was at my instigation.
Speaker 19: There's certain criteria for missing persons for them to be
Speaker 19: on the database, one is that they are in fact
Speaker 19: a missing person and in order for them to no
Speaker 19: longer be a missing person in that circumstance, there are
Speaker 19: two things that can occur. One they can be visually
Speaker 19: cited by police, which would then remove them from the database.
Speaker 19: And the second one is that in all the circumstances
Speaker 19: that are known, that is, whether it be through evidence,
Speaker 19: information or a set of circumstances, it's the belief of
Speaker 19: investigators that she doesn't fit the criteria of being the
Speaker 19: definition of a missing person and that there are.
Speaker 14: No fears held for her safety.
Speaker 19: Now, after having done the investigation that I did, I
Speaker 19: found out about her movements coming back to Australia and
Speaker 19: her unusual behavior in what I believe is trying to
Speaker 19: remove herself from the family, but there's been nothing to
Speaker 19: suggest that she is in great fear of her safety.
Speaker 19: And I know that Sally suggests that maybe that did happen,
Speaker 19: but there is nothing to suggest that has come out
Speaker 19: in evidence that that is actually the case. So I
Speaker 19: instigated a report to the Missing person's Unit, and the
Speaker 19: manager of the Missing persons Unit concurred with what I
Speaker 19: had to say, and as a result of that, she
Speaker 19: was brought off the database. But that doesn't mean that
Speaker 19: I haven't been doing work on this. I mean there
Speaker 19: are some things in your career that stick with you,
Speaker 19: and this is one of those cases. Sally's a lovely lady.
Speaker 19: I've met a family, I've met a kids. If there's
Speaker 19: a chance that I could do good for Sally and
Speaker 19: try and find her mother, then that's what I'd like
Speaker 19: to do.
Speaker 2: Over the years, there have been a number of New
Speaker 2: South Wales Police officers connected to the matter. The first
Speaker 2: Senior Constable Graham Childs, who took Sally's original report in
Speaker 2: October nineteen ninety seven at Barron Bay. Another Senior Constable,
Speaker 2: Stephen McAllister, from the Missing Persons Unit Detective Shean has
Speaker 2: looked after Marion's case since two thousand and nine.
Speaker 20: Well, Gary, how.
Speaker 2: Difficult has this investigation been.
Speaker 19: It's been an unusual one in that normally jobs that
Speaker 19: I do, we have offenders, crime scenes, things like that.
Speaker 14: This one has unique.
Speaker 19: It's nature and that it's gone on for such a
Speaker 19: long time, and it's been very very hard to try
Speaker 19: and work out what has happened. So I know that
Speaker 19: Sally has put a heart and soul into trying to
Speaker 19: find a mother, but it's been very difficult because of
Speaker 19: the passage of time, but also it's a different sort
Speaker 19: of investigation to what I normally do, So it has
Speaker 19: been it certainly has had its challenges.
Speaker 2: When police initially received the missing person's report here in
Speaker 2: Barren Bay, how long did they think it would take
Speaker 2: your colleagues to find out what had happened? Based on
Speaker 2: what happens with most of these cases, the vast majority
Speaker 2: people are found within days and weeks.
Speaker 14: Yeah.
Speaker 19: Look, the report was made a long time before I
Speaker 19: started work at Byron Bay, so I don't know what
Speaker 19: their expectation was, and it's very very hard to say,
Speaker 19: you know, I can't speak for others that went before me.
Speaker 19: In general terms with missing persons, from my experience, I
Speaker 19: can say that each one is unique.
Speaker 14: They are all very very different.
Speaker 19: Some are sold within a matter of hours, some are
Speaker 19: solved weeks months, Some are never solved. Some people want
Speaker 19: to be found, some people don't want to be found.
Speaker 2: Although he's never seen her in person, Detective Sheen believes
Speaker 2: Marian is alive and has a new identity. He investigated
Speaker 2: the fact that Marian's passport had returned to Australia on
Speaker 2: August nineteen ninety seven. That's the day after she last
Speaker 2: made contact with Sally from England. That passport expired in
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven and there has never been any
Speaker 2: attempt to renew it. Detective Shean also discovered that Marian
Speaker 2: had changed her name by deed Pole before her trip overseas.
Speaker 2: She traveled under the new name Florabella Natalia Marian Ramichel,
Speaker 2: a married housewife from Luxembourg.
Speaker 19: Once I started looking at what Sally had told me
Speaker 19: about a mother wanting to go on a holiday to
Speaker 19: England and then basically from there not being seen or
Speaker 19: heard from again, I found out that there were things
Speaker 19: that Sally didn't know about And I'll just give you
Speaker 19: an example. When I started looking at her movements from
Speaker 19: leaving Australia, I found that prior to leaving, Marian had
Speaker 19: applied for a new passport in a different name, which
Speaker 19: caught me by surprise. I certainly wasn't expecting anything like that,
Speaker 19: but it painted a picture of a totally different type
Speaker 19: of investigation, given that here I was with information that
Speaker 19: the family didn't know about, and it appeared to me
Speaker 19: as though it was something that was premeditated by Marian
Speaker 19: for whatever reason, and that she kept it away from
Speaker 19: her family so that they were none the wiser. They
Speaker 19: just thought that she was on a holiday to England.
Speaker 19: As I looked a little bit deeper, I found that
Speaker 19: she had actually come back to Australia on the same passport.
Speaker 14: So that is the passport that's in the new name.
Speaker 2: That's Flora Bella Natalia Marion Rameckel.
Speaker 14: That's correct, Yeah, Remichel, I think it's a pronouncement. I
Speaker 14: could be wrong.
Speaker 19: She traveled overseas on that passport and she came back
Speaker 19: on that passport as well. The whole impetus for this
Speaker 19: job was I think Sally realizing there was some money
Speaker 19: being taken out of her mother's account down here at
Speaker 19: Baron Bay and other places as well. So once I
Speaker 19: knew that information, I started digging around a little bit
Speaker 19: further to see whether there was anything to suggest that
Speaker 19: Marion had in fact come back to Australia other than
Speaker 19: what I could find out through the passport movement and
Speaker 19: incoming passenger cards. And I found that her Medicare card
Speaker 19: had also been used only a number of days after
Speaker 19: she had come back to Australia, and then started to
Speaker 19: dawn on me that the money that was coming out
Speaker 19: of the accounts was at a time when Marian was
Speaker 19: back in Australia. It became more complex. It went away
Speaker 19: from the traditional missing person to a position where I
Speaker 19: believe that it was possible that Marian had deliberately done
Speaker 19: these things and decided, for whatever reason, that she no
Speaker 19: longer wanted to be associated with her former life and
Speaker 19: was possibly setting up a new life for herself. So
Speaker 19: it took on a completely different type of job once
Speaker 19: I got into it.
Speaker 2: Florabella Natalia Marion Ramachel, Marian's new name Sally was stunned.
Speaker 20: I'm looking at a.
Speaker 2: Police report here, Sally from the fifth of May two
Speaker 2: thousand and eleven, an officer nasis He ran Chris and
Speaker 2: told him he had some news about Marian, that she
Speaker 2: changed her name prior to leaving on her holiday, and
Speaker 2: that it appears as though it was designed to assist
Speaker 2: her in disappearing.
Speaker 20: What did you make of that?
Speaker 17: I first I heard of that was what actually happened.
Speaker 17: Was the detective Gary Sheen ran Chris and said, I've
Speaker 17: got some information, but I want to actually come and
Speaker 17: see you guys to tell you, rather than tell you
Speaker 17: at the home. So he came to our house and
Speaker 17: he brought with him a piece of paper that had
Speaker 17: some information on it that he suggested we kind of
Speaker 17: have a little graze over while he went to the bathroom.
Speaker 17: On that piece of paper it had my mum's passport
Speaker 17: details and it had a name change on there to
Speaker 17: some random name Flora Bella, Natalia Marion Ramachel and my
Speaker 17: mum didn't have a middle name, so she was just
Speaker 17: flat out Marian and I thought that was quite odd.
Speaker 17: And the documentation also said that she was living in Luxembourg,
Speaker 17: status married and occupation was home duties and that she
Speaker 17: was coming to Australia for three days However, police have
Speaker 17: confirmed to me that Customs told them that the passport
Speaker 17: never left the country again, which is baffling to me.
Speaker 12: A little bit.
Speaker 20: So who is this Flora no idea.
Speaker 17: I've never heard of the name Flora Bella in my life.
Speaker 17: I have no idea what that is about or who
Speaker 17: that's about.
Speaker 1: Other family members and friends were just as shocked when
Speaker 1: they heard about the name change. As a result of
Speaker 1: information about Marion's name change and the return of her
Speaker 1: passport to Australia, the New South Wales Missing Person Unit
Speaker 1: determined that Marian could no longer be regarded as a
Speaker 1: missing person. The case status was changed to located in
Speaker 1: October twenty eleven and suggested that Sally was informed two
Speaker 1: months later in December twenty and eleven, but Sally says
Speaker 1: she only found out something was up when she asked
Speaker 1: Rebecca Cotts from the AFP to check Marriyan in spile.
Speaker 17: And she came back to me and said, there's something
Speaker 17: on the file. I can't tell you what it is,
Speaker 17: but I need to get authorization to show it to you.
Speaker 17: To give me a couple of days. So she came
Speaker 17: back to me a few days later and it had
Speaker 17: been authorized, and I got the documentation that had been
Speaker 17: released to me, and on that documentation it said that
Speaker 17: they had located my mother. They located her in October
Speaker 17: twenty eleven, and that they informed me in the December
Speaker 17: of twenty eleven that she had been located, which.
Speaker 12: Is all false.
Speaker 20: No one informed you of that at all.
Speaker 17: That's on an AFP document, which I find ludicrous and
Speaker 17: really hard to understand and fathom. I was never told
Speaker 17: that they located her ever. So the first thing I
Speaker 17: did was go back to Rebecca and ask her what
Speaker 17: that meant, and she said, you're probably best to go
Speaker 17: back to Gary. She and the detective and ask him.
Speaker 17: So I went back to Gary that day and said
Speaker 17: to him, can you just tell me what this is about?
Speaker 17: And he asked me to read it to him. So
Speaker 17: I read it to him and he was silent, and
Speaker 17: he said, can you read it to me again? So
Speaker 17: I read it again and he said, I've never located
Speaker 17: your mother. I don't understand why they would say that.
Speaker 17: Let me get back to you.
Speaker 2: Were you've initially excited, exhilarated even to see the words
Speaker 2: we've located Marion Barter.
Speaker 17: No, I was confused. Because I'd always been told that
Speaker 17: they'd never found her physically at all. So I was
Speaker 17: really frustrated. I don't remember being excited at all. I
Speaker 17: was like, no, that's not right. So he rang me
Speaker 17: back a few hours later and he said they've spoken
Speaker 17: to me and they've told me to apologize because it's
Speaker 17: a typo. And I went, good, excellent, I'm glad that
Speaker 17: that's a typo. That was not funny for me. I
Speaker 17: thought that was really bizarre.
Speaker 20: And that's a big typo.
Speaker 17: That is a massive typo. Massive part of it was
Speaker 17: typedrong located. It's in capital letters. So anyway, he goes,
Speaker 17: they're looking into it, they're going to get back to me.
Speaker 17: So he then rang me. I had a twenty minute
Speaker 17: conversation with him on the phone, and he told me
Speaker 17: that they've explained to him that at the missing person's
Speaker 17: unit they have two boxes. They have a box here
Speaker 17: for people who are missing, and they've got a box
Speaker 17: here for people who are found. And because the assumption
Speaker 17: is because there's a name change on her passport and
Speaker 17: because she sold her house, they deem that that is
Speaker 17: enough evidence for them to say that she's missing on
Speaker 17: her own account.
Speaker 20: She's disappeared by choice.
Speaker 17: There, she's not missing, so we have to say she's located.
Speaker 17: Telling me she's not located, So how can she be located, Well,
Speaker 17: we don't have another box for that.
Speaker 19: He is detective she and again I would like to
Speaker 19: find her and then perhaps give her the opportunity to
Speaker 19: say whether or not she wants Sally to know where
Speaker 19: she is. And I think that's respecting both Sally's right
Speaker 19: to know, but also married or Floribella's right to have
Speaker 19: her own privacy. So if I could get to that stage,
Speaker 19: that's what I'd like to happen. And even though, like
Speaker 19: I said, she's not on the database, it's still something
Speaker 19: that I will look at from time to time and
Speaker 19: try and get an ending one way or the other.
Speaker 19: Once I found out all the information and I was
Speaker 19: satisfied with my interpretation of the evidence that I had found,
Speaker 19: I actually went up to Sally's house and.
Speaker 14: Spoke to her.
Speaker 19: I thought at that stage that I had made it
Speaker 19: fairly clear to her that her mother didn't fit the
Speaker 19: criteria of a missing person, that I was going to
Speaker 19: take some steps to remove her from the database. Now
Speaker 19: if Sally thinks otherwise, and perhaps I didn't make myself
Speaker 19: clear enough, and if that is the case, then I apologize,
Speaker 19: But it was my understanding that I had explained that
Speaker 19: to Sally and that's what was going to happen.
Speaker 20: And what's her status currently.
Speaker 19: It's a case that is still active because we don't
Speaker 19: close these sorts of cases. While she's not on the database,
Speaker 19: she still is a person that I think needs to
Speaker 19: be located if at all possible. So it's still an
Speaker 19: active case, but it's not a case that I'm working
Speaker 19: on constantly. When I get time, I have a look
Speaker 19: at it. And the reason for that is because there
Speaker 19: is nothing for me to go forward with. It's very
Speaker 19: close for me to getting as far as I can
Speaker 19: through information through departments and things like that, So there's
Speaker 19: not a great deal that I can do.
Speaker 14: But what I have done over.
Speaker 19: The last few years is update the checks with all
Speaker 19: the government agencies to see whether the name has come
Speaker 19: up on any of the databases.
Speaker 14: And if there hadn't.
Speaker 19: Be, and then certainly would have been something I was
Speaker 19: talking to Sally about, but unfortunately, to this date there's
Speaker 19: been nothing.
Speaker 2: So if Marian's not missing and she's not found, where
Speaker 2: is she there's an assumption that she's living a new
Speaker 2: life under a new identity, but how can anyone be sure?
Speaker 2: And there still remains the issue that no one has
Speaker 2: seen Marion in person since nineteen ninety seven. Sally told
Speaker 2: me when she first reported her mother missing just down
Speaker 2: the road here at Byron Bay Police Station in October
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven. About a week later, the sergeant or
Speaker 2: someone at the station called her and said.
Speaker 20: We've spoken to her. She doesn't want to be found.
Speaker 2: She says she's okay, and essentially close the case. But
Speaker 2: in the case file there's no record of that. Did
Speaker 2: you find any record of that conversation or that that
Speaker 2: indication that had happened.
Speaker 14: No, I haven't been able to find anything.
Speaker 19: And again it's very hard for me to comment on
Speaker 19: something that happened back in nineteen ninety seven, and I
Speaker 19: had no involvement with whatsoever.
Speaker 2: But it's not in the file current that you haven't
Speaker 2: seen a note or an address or a record of
Speaker 2: conversation with Marian.
Speaker 19: The first time that I realized that we well understood
Speaker 19: that Marian had come back was when I discovered it
Speaker 19: myself in two thousand and nine or twenty ten, whatever.
Speaker 2: It was, Gary, I guess pointedly Sally would like to know,
Speaker 2: just in case it is the case she's decided to
Speaker 2: go missing. Gary, do you know where Marian is?
Speaker 19: No, Unfortunately I don't, and you know, it would be
Speaker 19: great that I did know, because I'd like to give
Speaker 19: Sally some closure. One thing, one thing I do have
Speaker 19: to say, though, in regards to that, is that in
Speaker 19: situations like this, when people go missing and they set
Speaker 19: up new lives for themselves and it's not unknown for
Speaker 19: that to happen, I think we have to be mindful
Speaker 19: too of the privacy of that person as well. You know,
Speaker 19: there are two sides to every story. In this particular case,
Speaker 19: I haven't been able to speak to Marian, neither has anybody,
Speaker 19: so we don't know what her circumstances are in regards
Speaker 19: to her deciding to do this.
Speaker 2: I mentioned the phone call Sally says she got a
Speaker 2: week after reporting him I'm missing, and then the family
Speaker 2: tracing service story from my grandfather.
Speaker 20: Have police, to your knowledge.
Speaker 2: Ever cited or located Marian spoken with.
Speaker 19: Her, Not that I'm aware of, certainly not. Since I've
Speaker 19: been involved in the investigation, I don't know what occurred.
Speaker 19: Prior to me getting the investigation. But there's been nothing
Speaker 19: that I've read that would suggest that.
Speaker 2: If I had all the information you have, Gary, would
Speaker 2: I be able to find Marian.
Speaker 19: No, I don't think so. I believe that Marian doesn't
Speaker 19: want to be found. I've done searches throughout Australia, in
Speaker 19: every state and every territory for things like drivers' licenses,
Speaker 19: birth deaths and marriages, medicare, settle link, the whole gamut
Speaker 19: of things that we normally look for for people who
Speaker 19: are missing. And I can't find a trace of Marion.
Speaker 19: That's not to say that she's not here, but I
Speaker 19: just can't find her.
Speaker 1: And therein lies another problem. Marian's been removed from the
Speaker 1: Missing Person's List even though she has not been cited.
Speaker 1: According to Rebecca Cotts, the former team leader at the
Speaker 1: NASH norm Missy Person's Register, this should not happen.
Speaker 11: So then what has to be the case for them
Speaker 11: to be taken off the list?
Speaker 10: Ultimately, if the family decides they no longer want to promote.
Speaker 10: I mean some families go through the ring absolutely a
Speaker 10: torn about promoting and talking about their missing family member publicly.
Speaker 10: But typically if the person is located safe and well
Speaker 10: or located deceased. That will bring them off. If a
Speaker 10: case goes unsolved, but there's a coronial and the coroner
Speaker 10: makes a ruling that the person there's no sign of
Speaker 10: life so issues an open finding and the person possibly deceased,
Speaker 10: it still doesn't in the case, so they still don't
Speaker 10: stop promoting it. It's only if physical evidence of the
Speaker 10: person living or dead is found.
Speaker 11: When you say physical evidence, does that mean you actually
Speaker 11: have to see them?
Speaker 10: They would have to be again AFP not being investigators.
Speaker 10: That would be definitely up to their state territory investigating.
Speaker 10: But they have to be on a shadow of a doubt,
Speaker 10: be happy that they've located the person safe or not.
Speaker 11: What is without a shadow of a doubt.
Speaker 10: They have to physically cite somebody. That's not an investigtive term.
Speaker 10: That is a generic term within the protocols of missing persons.
Speaker 10: For a missing person to be determined to be located
Speaker 10: or not, the person actually physically has to be cited
Speaker 10: or remains have to be found.
Speaker 11: So when because obviously you ask questions when you couldn't
Speaker 11: use the case, what were the answers that you received?
Speaker 12: So back when I asked me South Wales.
Speaker 10: They said that they had investigative outcomes that prevented them
Speaker 10: from promoting the case.
Speaker 12: Without surmising.
Speaker 10: My only interpretation of that at the time is that
Speaker 10: they had located her and she had chosen not to
Speaker 10: go back to her family. But that was my opinion
Speaker 10: at the time. It was not informed through investigations.
Speaker 11: Did you pursue answers?
Speaker 10: I was outside of my rights to pursue answers. Not
Speaker 10: being a sworn police officer, I had no privy I
Speaker 10: guess to outcomes of an investigation.
Speaker 11: Okay, so they didn't say to you, we've cited her.
Speaker 11: That's so that's no, no, and you couldn't find that out. No, okay,
Speaker 11: So what do you think then? Now has happened? Like,
Speaker 11: what do you what's your opinion? I guess, you know,
Speaker 11: twenty two years now, so what do you? What do
Speaker 11: you think or what are the what are the scenarios?
Speaker 10: I guess I guess with my ongoing communications Sally, I
Speaker 10: think from her opinion and this is you know, through conversations,
Speaker 10: ongoing conversations, I guess Sally has come to terms of
Speaker 10: the fact that she may never see a mother again.
Speaker 10: Through misadventure, that something may have happened to her and
Speaker 10: she may be deceased. My opinion on the case, I
Speaker 10: think obviously there's something that's happened to Marian. She hasn't
Speaker 10: just walked away from her life. She hasn't just walked
Speaker 10: away from everything she knows, because in conversations I've had
Speaker 10: with Sally, her mother would never do that, and she
Speaker 10: had so much to live for and loved her kids
Speaker 10: and her family. I guess somebody out there knows the truth.
Speaker 10: Somebody out there has the key to the puzzle.
Speaker 2: Sadly, Rebecca Cottz, the woman who made those last comments,
Speaker 2: died in April this year at the age of fifty.
Speaker 2: She had been battling cancer for a number of years.
Speaker 2: Her insights and recollections have proven invaluable for this podcast
Speaker 2: and for Sally. You're not only regarded Rebecca as a friend,
Speaker 2: but was also grateful for her support and her unwavering
Speaker 2: belief that Marian did not disappear of her own accord.
Speaker 1: And that brings to an end catch up episode number too.
Speaker 1: See you next time.
Speaker 2: If you knew Marian or have any information about her
Speaker 2: or her whereabouts, we'd love to hear from you. Our
Speaker 2: website is sevennews dot com dot AU forward slash The
Speaker 2: Lady Vanishes, where you can also email us. Oh and
Speaker 2: if you like what you're hearing, don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 2: Please rate and review our series. It helps new listeners
Speaker 2: find us. Presenter and executive producer Alison Sandy, Presenter and
Speaker 2: investigative journalist Brian Seymour, producer and writer Sally Eels. Sound
Speaker 2: design Mark Wright, transcripts Charlie Dally Watkins, Graphics Jason Blandford.
Speaker 2: The theme and much of the music by Nicholas Gasparini
Speaker 2: at the Darkpiano dot com. This is a seven News production.
Speaker 3: No