Speaker 1: Welcome to the Rise and Conquer Podcasts. This podcast is
Speaker 1: for women who want to take ownership of their lives,
Speaker 1: live unapologetically, and are ready to turn their biggest dreams
Speaker 1: into their reality. If you're ready to be armed with
Speaker 1: the tools that will inspire to take bold action, feel
Speaker 1: confident within yourself, and conquer your goals, then you've come
Speaker 1: to the right place. I'm your host, Georgie Stevenson. I'm
Speaker 1: a lawyer turned entrepreneur, co founder of Naked Harvest Supplements,
Speaker 1: and social media personality with a community of over three
Speaker 1: hundred thousand. I grew up believing I had to pursue
Speaker 1: the safe option and fit into a mold others had
Speaker 1: created for me. But then I entered my corporate law
Speaker 1: job and I realized that settling for a reality that
Speaker 1: did I didn't set my soul on fire, was something I
Speaker 1: was not prepared to do. I wanted more, and I
Speaker 1: have a feeling you do too. Join me and special
Speaker 1: guests weekly as we get down to the nitty gritty
Speaker 1: on all things health, mastering your mindset, creating lasting habits,
Speaker 1: thriving in your career and relationships, plus so much more,
Speaker 1: and together we'll gain the knowledge and perspective to pursue
Speaker 1: our wildest dreams and kick fear to the curb. Well,
Speaker 1: what are you waiting for? Let's rise and conquer. Hey guys,
Speaker 1: and welcome back to another episode of the Rise and
Speaker 1: Conquer Podcast. Today on the show, I'm sharing a very
Speaker 1: important conversation. I'm joined by Aisha Ash. Aisha is a
Speaker 1: proud Murray Grenadian woman. Born in Grenadia and raised in Brisbane.
Speaker 1: Aisha is a trailblazer in her field of creative arts.
Speaker 1: She started her own highly acclaimed creative arts company called Blackbirds.
Speaker 1: Aisha started Blackbirds when she noticed a lack of representation
Speaker 1: of women in color in the creative industry, and in
Speaker 1: our chat we get down to why this representation is
Speaker 1: so important and why it's important for women of color
Speaker 1: to take control of their narrative. Towards the end two
Speaker 1: we also discuss cultural appropriation and how we can better
Speaker 1: check ourselves. I truly believe that having open discussions about
Speaker 1: these issues and how we can actively help to make
Speaker 1: sure everyone around us feels welcomed, love and seen. If
Speaker 1: you want to learn more about Black Lives Matter movement
Speaker 1: and how you can help, I've put a couple of
Speaker 1: links in the show notes Aisha is truly in inspiring
Speaker 1: and an example of being able to build a company
Speaker 1: from a pain point to lead the way. I am
Speaker 1: so grateful for her energy in opening up about some
Speaker 1: serious issues. Let's get into the show. Hey, Ayisha, welcome
Speaker 1: to the show.
Speaker 2: Hi so nice to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking the time to chat
Speaker 1: with the RNC fan today. Before we get into the
Speaker 1: good cues, something I ask all my guests is what
Speaker 1: season are you currently in? So this just means what
Speaker 1: are you prioritizing at the moment.
Speaker 2: Oh, I actually feel really motivated at the moment, So
Speaker 2: I guess I'm prioritizing creating new work and being really
Speaker 2: proactive with what I'm putting out into the world and
Speaker 2: what I'm pursuing. I think for a while I was
Speaker 2: kind of okay during COVID, but I don't know, it
Speaker 2: was kind of like there was kind of this blanket
Speaker 2: of mundanity on me. So I was just really kind
Speaker 2: of not bored. I was still doing things. But I
Speaker 2: feel like now that things are lifting, I've got so
Speaker 2: much more impetus to kind of get out into the
Speaker 2: world and create things again.
Speaker 1: I love that, and I definitely do not think you're
Speaker 1: the only one. I definitely felt almost like, I think
Speaker 1: because of not knowing when it was going to lift,
Speaker 1: and I guess the uncertainty, I felt like a bit
Speaker 1: of para are like I'm trying to think of the
Speaker 1: word proalysis. Yes, yeah, wait, I kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to start things. I didn't know what
Speaker 1: to do. And then now I can kind of see,
Speaker 1: you know, the light at the end of the tunnel.
Speaker 1: I feel almost a bit more motivated to you know,
Speaker 1: do the next things and start the next projects.
Speaker 2: So definitely, yeah. And it's a really nice feeling too,
Speaker 2: isn't it.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's like it's kind of like a nice like
Speaker 1: light feeling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. It is.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much. The next question, I've already
Speaker 1: done a bit of an intro for you at the start,
Speaker 1: but could you give the listeners a bit of a
Speaker 1: snapshot of who you are and also what a day
Speaker 1: looks like in your life?
Speaker 2: Okay? Cool. So I trained first as an actor. So
Speaker 2: I went to acting school in Perth at a place
Speaker 2: called Whopper, and I did an acting course there. It
Speaker 2: was like a three year full time thing, and so
Speaker 2: I've been working professionally as an actor, I guess for
Speaker 2: about seven years now. Before that, I also went to
Speaker 2: I guess a kind of creative arts school in Brisbane
Speaker 2: called Queensland Academy for Creative Industries. So I've been doing
Speaker 2: creative stuff for a while. And then I guess after
Speaker 2: acting school as well, I started to branch out into
Speaker 2: doing more things like writing, directing, producing, throwing events, and
Speaker 2: I freelance a lot. I also have an agent, so
Speaker 2: I get gigs through my agent, who were great, But
Speaker 2: I also freelance a lot and find and make a
Speaker 2: lot of my own work. And I also run Blackbirds,
Speaker 2: which I think we'll talk about later, but I run
Speaker 2: a company creative arts code called Blackbirds, which focuses on
Speaker 2: making work fall buy and about women of color in
Speaker 2: Australia amazing.
Speaker 1: And just quickly, what is a date and the life
Speaker 1: look like for you?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, a day in the life. Well, I'm very
Speaker 2: much an early riser. I like to get up early
Speaker 2: and kind of do all my big tasks first thing
Speaker 2: in the morning and exercise and everything, because by eight
Speaker 2: pm I am really tired and we need to go
Speaker 2: to bed. So that's pretty like I have to be
Speaker 2: very self directed in terms of the work that I've
Speaker 2: been doing, especially during this whole COVID season, because a
Speaker 2: lot of the work that was planned was postponed or canceled,
Speaker 2: and so therefore there was no rehearsal period or anything.
Speaker 2: We were supposed to have weeks and weeks of rehearsals
Speaker 2: for shows, but that was all postponed. So I've had
Speaker 2: to kind of pivot and think about the work that
Speaker 2: I'm creating and how I can use my day still
Speaker 2: to the full without pushing myself too much and without
Speaker 2: expecting too much of myself, which I'm sure you can
Speaker 2: agree is kind of hard, Like you feel like you
Speaker 2: should be doing stuff, doing stuffing stuff all the time,
Speaker 2: but it is really important to kind of give yourself
Speaker 2: a break. And I think that's what I've been trying
Speaker 2: to do with COVID, you know, trying to do less
Speaker 2: but do it better.
Speaker 1: Yes, one hundred percent, I love that, And yeah, that's
Speaker 1: so interesting. I didn't kind of that didn't even register
Speaker 1: to me about you know, performances and not having rehearsals
Speaker 1: and whatnot, So your life would look very different during
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a lot of stuff planned for interstate
Speaker 2: and like we were doing a whole season of a
Speaker 2: show in Melbourne, but that was all canned. But I
Speaker 2: think the arts industry is you know, it's been really
Speaker 2: hit hard by COVID and it's really difficult because artists
Speaker 2: are some of the first people to always step up
Speaker 2: and put on benefits for other things for free, you know,
Speaker 2: give their time for free, which I think is such
Speaker 2: a great quality. But now we're kind of being left
Speaker 2: in the dark by the government in terms of stimulus
Speaker 2: packages and stuff. So hopefully within the next few weeks
Speaker 2: we see a bit of change there.
Speaker 1: Yes, one hundred percent. And also so important to make sure,
Speaker 1: you know, we as listeners and as people who enjoy
Speaker 1: the creative industry to then go and you know, support
Speaker 1: you guys when you do have performances and that sort
Speaker 1: of stuff on. Yes, absolutely, Okay, So you chatted out
Speaker 1: briefly about Blackbirds, and I want to get into that
Speaker 1: because I really want to chat the importance of representation
Speaker 1: in the film, TV media industry. So you're the artistic
Speaker 1: director of your own create arts company called Blackbirds, and
Speaker 1: you've also worked professionally as an actor. As you said, firstly,
Speaker 1: before we get into what Blackbirds is and how it
Speaker 1: came about, can you let us know. I guess how
Speaker 1: you came to have an interest in the creative industry.
Speaker 2: I think as if kid because I'm an only child
Speaker 2: of a single parent, So as a kid, I was
Speaker 2: bored a lot. I would have to kind of make
Speaker 2: my own fun and my mum was always super busy
Speaker 2: working and studying, and I would kind of have to
Speaker 2: find ways to entertain myself. And then when it came
Speaker 2: to after school activities like sport, I was enrolled in
Speaker 2: so many different ones, and I just didn't like any
Speaker 2: of the sports. I just was not into sporty, Like
Speaker 2: I'm just not a sporty person. Unfortunately, I can watch
Speaker 2: your game, but when it comes to playing it, I'm
Speaker 2: just I'm good on the sidelines, like encouraging people, but
Speaker 2: on the field shocking. So I found I found my love.
Speaker 2: I guess when I was probably about ten or nine,
Speaker 2: I started doing dancing and I loved that and became
Speaker 2: such a huge part of my life. I think by
Speaker 2: the time I finished, I was doing about thirty to
Speaker 2: forty hours of class a week, so it was a
Speaker 2: big part of my life. And I'm so grateful for
Speaker 2: it because I think, just the same as any of
Speaker 2: team sport does, you know, dancing offers such a great
Speaker 2: learning facility in the terms of discipline and working as
Speaker 2: a team and getting to know your body and getting
Speaker 2: to know music and all that kind of thing. So
Speaker 2: I started through dancing and then I went to a
Speaker 2: creative arts high school in Brisbane and I did theater
Speaker 2: and music there as my two major creative subjects. And
Speaker 2: after that I decided, you know, I really loved acting.
Speaker 2: I think I was so shy as a kid that
Speaker 2: acting was something that I felt I could be someone else.
Speaker 2: So it was really nice for me to kind of
Speaker 2: get rid of that fear. And so when I went
Speaker 2: to acting school, it was a really big kind of
Speaker 2: It was a big change because I moved over to Perth.
Speaker 2: It was the first time that I lived out of home,
Speaker 2: but it was such a supportive community, and I think
Speaker 2: acting has so many other benefits in terms of building
Speaker 2: confidence and getting to know yourself and also providing you
Speaker 2: with a lot of opportunities to kind of think about
Speaker 2: how other people work, you know, when you're doing character
Speaker 2: work and things like that. So yeah, I guess It's
Speaker 2: kind of just been like a flow on effect for me.
Speaker 2: And I could have gone to union, and I was
Speaker 2: really considering doing law. I deferred it, but I just
Speaker 2: knew that it wouldn't make me happy, and it might
Speaker 2: have been an easier path, you know, and I've heard
Speaker 2: you talk about this before. It would have been an
Speaker 2: easier path to go down in terms of stability, but
Speaker 2: it just wouldn't have fulfilled me. And at the end
Speaker 2: of the day, you know, I know, I'm very lucky
Speaker 2: to have that option to do something that I can
Speaker 2: feel fulfilled from. Not everyone has that option, and yeah,
Speaker 2: I feel really lucky to be able to pursue it.
Speaker 2: It is tough, as any creative industry is, but it's
Speaker 2: definitely worth it.
Speaker 1: I love what you said about, you know, it being
Speaker 1: a form of learning discipline and learning to talk with
Speaker 1: a team and that sort of thing, which is kind
Speaker 1: of what people think, you know, you do with sport
Speaker 1: during school. And I actually, I don't think my listeners
Speaker 1: know this, but I actually did acting from a young
Speaker 1: age to up I think maybe like fourteen. It was
Speaker 1: like nothing nothing you street, was like more of enough
Speaker 1: school thing. But I felt like that because I'm so
Speaker 1: uncoordinated with sports. For me, it's just like, yeah, it
Speaker 1: was really good to have this sort of outing where
Speaker 1: you did learn those skills, but in a different creative way.
Speaker 1: And that's so interesting what you said about law and yeah,
Speaker 1: much the same. I went through the exact same sort
Speaker 1: of transition when I was like, Yeah, what am I doing?
Speaker 1: I don't actually enjoy this and I can kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, try this other thing that I enjoy. So
Speaker 1: I love that you're following your passions. And I love
Speaker 1: so much that you started this creative company called Blackbirds.
Speaker 1: So I know you said this came as a response
Speaker 1: to the lack of representation of women of color in
Speaker 1: earlier in the arts industry. Can you expand more on
Speaker 1: this and explain what Blackbirds is about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Blackbirds was co founded between myself and Tokala
Speaker 2: and Fijian woman called Emilie Unavoul who's also an actor, writer, producer,
Speaker 2: director wears many hats, and we kind of started talking
Speaker 2: to each other. I gets in twenty fifteen because we
Speaker 2: both finished drama school. I went to Whopper, she went
Speaker 2: to Nider and we were graduating into the industry and
Speaker 2: we were both really disappointed and not excited at all
Speaker 2: about the kind of opportunities that would be out there
Speaker 2: for us once we graduated, or you know, more more
Speaker 2: about I guess the lack of opportunities that would be
Speaker 2: out there. So from the get go, we just thought, well,
Speaker 2: why don't we just create our own opportunities. And another
Speaker 2: thing I guess in terms of being at an acting
Speaker 2: school and meeting all these people, is that you see
Speaker 2: so many other women of color who have also trained
Speaker 2: professionally and who are amazing, but don't get any opportunity
Speaker 2: to share that because the commercial film and TV theater
Speaker 2: industries are very small and can be quite limited in
Speaker 2: how they choose to represent people. And also I think
Speaker 2: sometimes they don't give the audience enough credit and they
Speaker 2: don't trust the audience in terms of what the audience
Speaker 2: wants to see and how much the audience wants diversity
Speaker 2: as well. So we just went, yeah, we're going to
Speaker 2: create our own company, and actually we wanted to start
Speaker 2: it as a podcast, and the podcast has only come
Speaker 2: about this year, so very slow on the podcast uptake.
Speaker 2: We've kind of got sidetracked with a lot of different practices.
Speaker 2: But we do theater film, short film we've done visual artworks.
Speaker 2: We've also done live I guess more live art performances,
Speaker 2: and we've been able to to take our work to
Speaker 2: al Toyoto and New Zealand and Melbourne and Sydney, Brisbane
Speaker 2: and one of our films was even shown in by Batos,
Speaker 2: which was really cool. So yeah, we really wanted to
Speaker 2: make sure that we created something that women of color
Speaker 2: from the diaspora from all over the world who called
Speaker 2: Australia home could share their stories and their experiences and
Speaker 2: feel seen as well as have an opportunity to share
Speaker 2: the talents and the skills that they've been working so
Speaker 2: hard on for so long, and often because there is
Speaker 2: a lack of opportunity, some of these women just decide
Speaker 2: to step back from the industry altogether, which I can understand,
Speaker 2: but is also really it's just sad, I guess, because
Speaker 2: they've invested so much of their time in their life
Speaker 2: and to see something that was a passion for so
Speaker 2: many people just die because there's no opportunity and that
Speaker 2: they can't feel seen is pretty heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: Yes, and that's just amazing that you guys would see
Speaker 1: that see you know, the lack of representation and create
Speaker 1: your own space like it's it's actually amazing. And I
Speaker 1: guess like I wanted to ask, because, like you said,
Speaker 1: like things are progressing, things are getting better. Do you
Speaker 1: feel like they have progressed quite a lot or do
Speaker 1: you feel like there's still a long way to go.
Speaker 2: I think there's definitely still a long way to go.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's no doubt that things have progressed. But
Speaker 2: we're talking about you know, film and TV industries, in
Speaker 2: the theater industries have been around for so long and
Speaker 2: we're only just getting to this point now. I think
Speaker 2: we really can pick up the pace, and I think,
Speaker 2: you know, theater companies and production companies and casting agents
Speaker 2: need to, you know, really set some goals and markets
Speaker 2: for themselves and hold themselves accountable because one of the
Speaker 2: best things about Australia is how diverse our population is.
Speaker 2: People come from everywhere, and it's such a shame to
Speaker 2: kind of waste those stories and just kind of pigeonhole
Speaker 2: what Australian culture is or what Australian culture could be
Speaker 2: to one type of person.
Speaker 1: Yes, I love what you've said about their stories, and
Speaker 1: I know, like a part of the reason Blackbirds was
Speaker 1: formed was that, so women of color could also become
Speaker 1: control of their own narratives and tell their own stories.
Speaker 1: Can you explain a bit to the Rise and Conquer Audience,
Speaker 1: just why this is so important.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I think it's really really important for people
Speaker 2: from marginalized groups, whether that be because your marginalized because
Speaker 2: of your race, your ethnicity, your gender, identity, your ability levels,
Speaker 2: that you have control over your own story, because as
Speaker 2: someone who is already oppressed by the majority of society,
Speaker 2: to have a story told and you have control of
Speaker 2: that gives you so much opportunity to speak a truth
Speaker 2: to people that they would not necessarily hear, and also
Speaker 2: provides a real representation and not a stereotypical representation, because
Speaker 2: we know that stereotypes are so problematic, and you know,
Speaker 2: I can understand why they come in that they are
Speaker 2: a quick they're a quick fix, and it's kind of
Speaker 2: a bit of a lazy job to just put a
Speaker 2: stereotype in and not actually delve deep into the depth
Speaker 2: of a person. But we've seen before. There's this study
Speaker 2: that was done and I really recommend everyone go on
Speaker 2: YouTube and you can look at it. If you just
Speaker 2: type in dole test on YouTube. You can watch it.
Speaker 2: But a study was done in America in the nineteen
Speaker 2: forties and they were trying to figure out the impacts
Speaker 2: of segregation on black and white students. So if anyone
Speaker 2: doesn't know, segregation was where they separated people of black
Speaker 2: and white races and they weren't allowed to go to
Speaker 2: school together or drink from the same water fountains or anything.
Speaker 2: It was mad And the black children they were given
Speaker 2: a black doll and a white doll, and they always
Speaker 2: had bias. They wanted to have the white doll, they
Speaker 2: wanted to have the white skin because they were told
Speaker 2: that black was bad. Black was bad. And then in
Speaker 2: twenty ten they did a similar study kind of seeing
Speaker 2: if anything had changed, and unfortunately it hadn't. And it
Speaker 2: was so heartbreaking to watch these kids pointing at the
Speaker 2: black doll, Black kids pointing at the black doll and saying,
Speaker 2: this doll is bad, this dole is ugly, this doll
Speaker 2: is dumb, this dole, this dole has nothing to offer
Speaker 2: because of the stereotypes and the lack of representation of
Speaker 2: black people on TV and in film. So to see that,
Speaker 2: you know, taken all the way from the forties to
Speaker 2: twenty ten. This study was done in young children, I
Speaker 2: think between the ages of five and ten, is like,
Speaker 2: it just really highlights the importance of having people in
Speaker 2: control of their own stories so that you can have
Speaker 2: diverse and strong and beautiful representations of black people and
Speaker 2: you know, people who are from other minorities as well.
Speaker 2: I think it's just so important and it benefits everyone.
Speaker 2: You know, no one wants to be going around with
Speaker 2: a very small minded view of the world, so it's
Speaker 2: I think it's everyone's benefit to have more interesting stories
Speaker 2: on screen.
Speaker 1: I could not agree more. And I love that you
Speaker 1: touched on that, and I love that you've followed your
Speaker 1: passion and you've built this amazing company where you're allowing
Speaker 1: women of color to take control of telling their stories.
Speaker 1: And I wanted to ask you if you have any
Speaker 1: empowering tips or words of advice for others who are
Speaker 1: feeling a lack of representation to step up and take lead,
Speaker 1: whether that's you know, starting their own company, business venture,
Speaker 1: or like you said, following their passions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know it's hard, but I honestly
Speaker 2: think you've just got to listen to yourself, sit down
Speaker 2: with yourself, do whatever you have to do, maybe write
Speaker 2: a pros and com list or meditate or think about
Speaker 2: you know, what gap are you trying to fill? How
Speaker 2: are you trying to help other people? And I think
Speaker 2: you've just got to go through it. And it's hard.
Speaker 2: I mean nothing I think in this world really is easy.
Speaker 2: But it's also an opportunity to learn and to challenge
Speaker 2: yourself and growth can often be uncomfortable, but you know
Speaker 2: you have to go through that to get to where
Speaker 2: you need to be or where you want to be.
Speaker 2: So I really think that you've just got to take
Speaker 2: the plunge. It's not always going to be easy, but
Speaker 2: just keep going, honestly, just don't give up. My mom
Speaker 2: has this magnet on the fridge. She's had it since
Speaker 2: I was a little kid, and it says, if you're
Speaker 2: going through hell, keep going. And I think about it
Speaker 2: all the times. It's like, sometimes you've just got to
Speaker 2: keep going because if you stop, like, what's all that
Speaker 2: hard work for? And know that there's something there at
Speaker 2: the end. You don't know what it is, maybe, but
Speaker 2: just keep going one foot in front of the other
Speaker 2: day after today, and don't compare yourself to anyone else,
Speaker 2: because you know, I think This is saying, you know,
Speaker 2: comparison is the thief of joy, and everyone is really
Speaker 2: running their own race, and everyone has a different life story,
Speaker 2: and you just can't compare yourself to someone else, because
Speaker 2: then you're just wasting your time and energy in stet
Speaker 2: into you know, something that's not going to get you anywhere,
Speaker 2: instead of putting that into progressing your own goals or
Speaker 2: your own career.
Speaker 1: I love that one hundred percent. Stay in your own lane,
Speaker 1: keep going, don't quit all amazing stuff. This episode is
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Speaker 1: back into the show. I want to switch gears a
Speaker 1: tiny bit. And I've read in an interview that you
Speaker 1: were featured in in Folk Magazine, and you said, and
Speaker 1: this is a direct quote. I'm doing little quotes from
Speaker 1: my fingers right now, guys. So you said, our capabilities
Speaker 1: as women of color are often ignored or diminished because
Speaker 1: we've been denied access to certain space and or told
Speaker 1: that we're not good enough to thrive in the same
Speaker 1: steares as white people. Can you kind of talk about
Speaker 1: this quote a bit more and explain the idea of tokenism?
Speaker 2: Sure, I think you know, it's really important to think
Speaker 2: about the ways in which institutions, and you know, academic
Speaker 2: institutions and corporate places are built in a way to
Speaker 2: support only one identity and keep others locked out. And
Speaker 2: we're told, you know, as people of color and as
Speaker 2: a black woman, you know, I was told very early
Speaker 2: on in my life that I would have to work
Speaker 2: twice as hard as a white person to get half
Speaker 2: as far. And what's meant by that is that even
Speaker 2: though some people don't know that, the implicit biases that
Speaker 2: they act on or the way that they have internalized
Speaker 2: racism because they've grown up in a society that you know,
Speaker 2: the indigenous people still don't have recognition in the constitution.
Speaker 2: That's also going to affect then the way that people
Speaker 2: of color and people from minorities have access into these spaces. So,
Speaker 2: for example, even with something like a resume, there was
Speaker 2: a study done a couple of years ago in America
Speaker 2: talking about how if you have an ethnic sounding name,
Speaker 2: you're like fifty percent and this is probably not the
Speaker 2: exact number, but you're less likely to even have your
Speaker 2: resume read because your name sounds ethnic and not white.
Speaker 2: So from the get go, someone with a name like mine,
Speaker 2: like Aisha, or someone with another ethnic sounding name, isn't
Speaker 2: even going to have a tiny foot in the door
Speaker 2: just because of their name. They won't even look at
Speaker 2: your qualifications. Also, you know, similar things happen though, even
Speaker 2: with age. You know, with agism, we know that agism
Speaker 2: is a real thing, and that women over a certain
Speaker 2: age they're probably not going to get a job because
Speaker 2: people will think they're too old to employ. Saying with
Speaker 2: your gender, you know, sometimes if you have a male
Speaker 2: sounding name, if you're a female identifier and your name
Speaker 2: is something like I don't know, Blake, you're more likely
Speaker 2: to get a job interview because they will think you're
Speaker 2: a man. So it covers a lot of different things.
Speaker 2: And so there's a lot of different doors that are
Speaker 2: closed to people just because of you know, their race,
Speaker 2: their age, their gender. So I think it's really important
Speaker 2: for especially people who run companies or people who have sway,
Speaker 2: who work in HR and all these types of things,
Speaker 2: to think about the way that you make room for difference,
Speaker 2: the way that you make room for people of minorities,
Speaker 2: and really look at your own practices and just hold
Speaker 2: yourself accountable. Like I said before, you know, look at
Speaker 2: the structures and how they benefit you, and how something
Speaker 2: that is benefiting you is directly keeping someone else out.
Speaker 1: And do you have any because on this podcast, I'm
Speaker 1: really big on giving the audience sort of like actionable takeaways.
Speaker 1: And I love what you said and I cannot agree more.
Speaker 1: And I think there is this huge sort of awakening
Speaker 1: happening right now which is amazing, and I want to
Speaker 1: keep pushing forward with this and I wanted to ask you,
Speaker 1: and sorry, I wanted to ask you if you have
Speaker 1: any sort of actionable tips. Obviously, I don't want to
Speaker 1: sit here and ask you to explain everything, because we
Speaker 1: do have to go out and we have to do
Speaker 1: our own education, and we have to take responsibility one
Speaker 1: hundred percent. But I guess, you know, with being more
Speaker 1: aware with the content we consume and more mindful, do
Speaker 1: you have any actionable tips for the audience they can
Speaker 1: sort of do right now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm not even sure if I answered the
Speaker 2: second half of your last question about tokenism, but I'll
Speaker 2: just pop that one into here quickly because I think
Speaker 2: it goes well with what I can offer the listeners.
Speaker 2: But tokenism is when when someone of a minority group
Speaker 2: is just put there as I guess, like a little
Speaker 2: doll of look at what we're doing. We're really working hard,
Speaker 2: But actually they're just there because they're offering this company
Speaker 2: some kind of value. It's benefiting them, and it's not
Speaker 2: benefiting the culture or the minority group that they're showing off. So,
Speaker 2: for example, something that I've seen some people being called
Speaker 2: out about on Instagram over these past few weeks is
Speaker 2: some fashion labels all of a sudden, they're posting photos
Speaker 2: of black people or people of color on their instagrams,
Speaker 2: but you scroll down their feet, and before this Black
Speaker 2: Lives Matter was very much front and center of the media,
Speaker 2: there was absolutely none. So it's very see through transparent
Speaker 2: that people are trying to jump on the bandwagon instead
Speaker 2: of saying, you know, something better to do would be say, hey,
Speaker 2: we're really aware that we have not used any black
Speaker 2: models or any models of color in our in our
Speaker 2: work before, and we're actively changing that and this is
Speaker 2: this is what we're doing and these are the steps
Speaker 2: we're taking. So leading on from that as well, I
Speaker 2: think something great for you know, the listeners to think
Speaker 2: about is maybe if they have a brand that they
Speaker 2: love and they don't see any diversity there, just send
Speaker 2: them a message. You know, it doesn't need to be
Speaker 2: it's not, you know, attacking someone, but just say hey,
Speaker 2: I've noticed that you don't have a very diverse range
Speaker 2: of models on your website or and that can be
Speaker 2: in terms of size as well as skin tone and
Speaker 2: even ability, like there should be models of disability on
Speaker 2: websites and things as well, So you can send a
Speaker 2: message to them and say hey, I've noticed this. It
Speaker 2: would be really great because the brands should want to
Speaker 2: reflect what the purchaser wants, right. So if you're actively
Speaker 2: reaching out to them and saying this is you know,
Speaker 2: something that I want to see and more people and
Speaker 2: more people are doing that than they're more likely to change.
Speaker 2: Another really easy thing to do, and I know people
Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable about it, but just call out racism when
Speaker 2: you see it. You know, it doesn't need to be
Speaker 2: a huge fight, but just say, hey, that's not appropriate,
Speaker 2: and or hey, that's actually really offensive. Sometimes people don't
Speaker 2: realize they're being offensive, and all it takes is for
Speaker 2: you to say, hey, this is offensive because or I
Speaker 2: really don't think that's an appropriate thing to say. And
Speaker 2: don't just let that fall onto the shoulders of your
Speaker 2: friend who is black or Asian or something different to you.
Speaker 2: Don't let that fall onto your friend who's of a
Speaker 2: minority group, who probably has to do that all the
Speaker 2: time anyway, and probably feels even more uncomfortable about it
Speaker 2: than you do. So just do that. Those little things
Speaker 2: can make a huge difference.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for touching on that. Hundred percent.
Speaker 1: I love what you said about Yeah, it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's uncomfortable, but it is one hundred percent more uncomfortable
Speaker 1: for the person of minority. And I love what you
Speaker 1: said about the brands too, because it is so important
Speaker 1: and especially if a brand does want to thrive moving forward,
Speaker 1: they will listen to the consumer. They have to.
Speaker 2: Hmmmm. Absolutely, And I really hope that we do see
Speaker 2: some change, you know, and after Black Lives Matter, isn't
Speaker 2: you know at the center of the news cycle that
Speaker 2: people still continue on with these actions because as I
Speaker 2: said before, it's going to make the world better for everyone.
Speaker 2: You know, inclusivity is inclusive of everyone, and equality is
Speaker 2: for everyone, so it's going to make the world better.
Speaker 1: Amazing. Well, let's switch gears a little bit and I
Speaker 1: want to talk about your podcast. So you have your
Speaker 1: own podcast called No Offense But which is a series
Speaker 1: of conversations with women of where you break away from
Speaker 1: stereotypes and get to the core of people's work and
Speaker 1: what drives them and for anyone wanting to know a
Speaker 1: bit more behind the Black Lives Matter movement and the
Speaker 1: injustices happening around the world and in Australia. I usually
Speaker 1: has an episode with these topics that runs through it
Speaker 1: very in depth, and I highly recommend you go listen.
Speaker 1: I'll make sure I pop it in the show notes
Speaker 1: because you know, iish I was so conscious because I
Speaker 1: don't want you to sit here and you know, explain
Speaker 1: stuff to the audience when we can go out and listen,
Speaker 1: and we definitely have the responsibility to do that. So
Speaker 1: I'll put that in the show notes for you guys.
Speaker 1: But let's touch on In an episode, you did touch
Speaker 1: on cultural appropriation, and I know this has been a
Speaker 1: bit of a topic recently, and I want the listeners
Speaker 1: to just be a bit more aware about cultural appropriation.
Speaker 1: Can you explain a bit just what this concept is
Speaker 1: and a bit more why it is so important to
Speaker 1: be aware of this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So cultural appropriation, I guess, in a
Speaker 2: nutshell is when you, well, someone takes something that they
Speaker 2: might might find esthetically pleasing or cool or beautiful from
Speaker 2: one culture and puts it on themselves without understanding the
Speaker 2: struggle and the challenge that the people who that item
Speaker 2: or practice belongs to have to go through every day
Speaker 2: just for having it. So it's like when you're putting
Speaker 2: your understandings of another culture over that actual culture, you know,
Speaker 2: putting a package on it, modeling it and sometimes selling
Speaker 2: it and profiting off it. And yeah, it's using a
Speaker 2: culture that isn't yours for your own personal gain, and
Speaker 2: it it happens a lot, you know, and not just
Speaker 2: in terms of people wearing Indian headdresses to festivals, which
Speaker 2: I think a lot of festivals have actually now banned
Speaker 2: because of cultural appropriation. And that can be very very
Speaker 2: offensive to people who those headdresses actually belong to, because
Speaker 2: they represent so much and also represents, you know, the
Speaker 2: years of oppression and the genocide that goes along with
Speaker 2: being an Indigenous person from those cultures. But it also
Speaker 2: has happened with fashion labels. I mean, I think a
Speaker 2: few years ago, maybe it was three years ago, Chanelle
Speaker 2: actually released a boomerang as part of their spring summer collection.
Speaker 2: So you know, that's so inappropriate and you can't just
Speaker 2: take something that is so important to indigenous culture, here
Speaker 2: are our First Nations people and just put a Chanelle
Speaker 2: symbol on it and try and sell it for over
Speaker 2: one thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: I didn't even know that. That is crazy, one hundred percent,
Speaker 1: and can you sort of explain? So, for example, I
Speaker 1: know the Kardashians will often always wear their hair in braids,
Speaker 1: and I hope I've got that term, right, I think,
Speaker 1: I think it's called something else, but can you sort
Speaker 1: of explain why that is so inappropriate.
Speaker 2: A really good and clear example that I think is
Speaker 2: super recognizable for a lot of reasons at the moment
Speaker 2: is the appropriation of black hairstyles. And you can see
Speaker 2: people who really big in the public eye, like the Kardashians,
Speaker 2: who often appropriate black hairstyles, and they do get called
Speaker 2: out for it, but they do continue to do it.
Speaker 2: And I think it's really important for people to realize
Speaker 2: why it's such an issue. And it is because, you know,
Speaker 2: black women, especially black people, from when they were taken
Speaker 2: taken from Africa and used as slaves, their traditional hairstyles
Speaker 2: were were mocked and they were called ugly and uncivilized
Speaker 2: and disgusting, and they weren't allowed to show their hair
Speaker 2: because sometimes white women would get jealous of it, and
Speaker 2: so they would then wear these head raps that you see,
Speaker 2: and it was even made a law that sometimes you
Speaker 2: would have to wear a head rap if you're a
Speaker 2: black woman with black hair. And then after that, you know,
Speaker 2: black women then designed wigs because and weaves because it
Speaker 2: was also part of the I guess stereotypical idea of
Speaker 2: beauty that if you had black hair, because of all
Speaker 2: these years of oppression already, then you would be ugly.
Speaker 2: So they wanted to cover their hair and hide it
Speaker 2: because if you had straight a hair, that made you
Speaker 2: more desirable. And we even see that today. I mean,
Speaker 2: you just have to google unprofessional hairstyles and what comes
Speaker 2: up is black women with curly hair or afros, and
Speaker 2: that is so crazy to me to think about that.
Speaker 2: You know, just having my hairstyle is something that will
Speaker 2: make me deemed unprofessional. And so then you know all
Speaker 2: these hairstyles that Black people have created, cornrows and braids,
Speaker 2: not only to keep up the health of their hair,
Speaker 2: but also because it has cultural significance in terms of
Speaker 2: showing things like you know where you're from, where I'm
Speaker 2: from in the Caribbean, my grandma and aunties and the
Speaker 2: women there. It's a really cultural, culturally traditional thing that
Speaker 2: you sit on the steps on a Sunday and all
Speaker 2: the kids would have their hair braided every single Sunday.
Speaker 2: It's like it's a thing that brings people together. And
Speaker 2: then so to see fashion labels and these big celebrities
Speaker 2: then just wearing these hairstyles. Willy nilly because it makes
Speaker 2: them look cool and having no understanding of the years
Speaker 2: of tradition and also the years of oppression that come
Speaker 2: with wearing a hairstyle. Someone like me, if I wear braids,
Speaker 2: then someone might say I look ghetto, but if a
Speaker 2: white person wears them, then they look really cool. So
Speaker 2: it's this real double standard that people need to be
Speaker 2: aware of. And like, there are so many other hairstyles
Speaker 2: that you could do. You don't need to have cornrows,
Speaker 2: you don't need to have those braids.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for explaining that to the audience.
Speaker 1: And I definitely, I definitely love what you said in
Speaker 1: regards to you know, for us, it's just oh, I
Speaker 1: want to look cool or I want to wear my
Speaker 1: hair this way, but you need to think of it
Speaker 1: from the minorities point of view of that years of
Speaker 1: you know, oppression and that sort of stuff. So thank
Speaker 1: you so much for explaining that. And like I said, guys,
Speaker 1: please go and listen to Ayisha's podcast No Offense, but
Speaker 1: it will be linked and there's so many good episodes
Speaker 1: in there. Before we finished the interview, I wanted to
Speaker 1: as you and we kind of touched on this, but
Speaker 1: how can we keep showing up and doing the work
Speaker 1: to ensure that this Black Lives Matter movement isn't just
Speaker 1: you know, something that is happening now and trending on
Speaker 1: social media, Like, how can we work towards ensuring this
Speaker 1: is a long term, long term sorry movement?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know, this start with you know,
Speaker 2: the small things, and sometimes the small things aren't actually small.
Speaker 2: You know, a small thing was people going to the
Speaker 2: marches that happened. That was wonderful, you know, showing solidarity
Speaker 2: in that way, being in the space supporting people, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: Keep having these conversations with people that maybe still aren't
Speaker 2: there in terms of being progressive, not even being progressive,
Speaker 2: just you know, having and open mind and challenging their
Speaker 2: own way of thinking and really have a conversation with people,
Speaker 2: because I think if you are putting in the work
Speaker 2: in terms of finding influences of different ethnicities to follow,
Speaker 2: finding different businesses that are owned by people of different ethnicities,
Speaker 2: thinking about what type of media you consume in terms
Speaker 2: of you know, for example, this was quite a famous one,
Speaker 2: but I think it was maybe last year year before Sunrise,
Speaker 2: they did this segment saying that Indigenous children Indigenous parents
Speaker 2: can't care for their kids, or something ridiculous and offensive
Speaker 2: like that. You know what, don't watch that show anymore.
Speaker 2: Don't buy into that. Don't believe it. And if you
Speaker 2: read something somewhere and you think it sounds a bit off,
Speaker 2: then look into it further, because sometimes some of our
Speaker 2: news sources can be really biased, and that's a really
Speaker 2: huge problem because a lot of people think that they
Speaker 2: don't have the time to kind of find the facts
Speaker 2: in there. But you know what, you do have the time,
Speaker 2: and it is fun actually to find out more information.
Speaker 2: It's really amazing to have the opportunity to open your
Speaker 2: mind more, to consume more podcasts, to find different films
Speaker 2: to watch in different documentaries, to have genuine conversations with people.
Speaker 2: And I think it's so important to listen and when
Speaker 2: someone tells you something, you know, if an Indigenous person
Speaker 2: says to you, oh, that's racist, accept that and don't
Speaker 2: try and fight it. And really, as I said before,
Speaker 2: I think it's so important for everyone to take time
Speaker 2: to sit with themselves and reflect on the world and
Speaker 2: the society that they're operating in, how it benefits them
Speaker 2: and how that keeps other people down and think about okay, well,
Speaker 2: what can I do to change that? Or how can
Speaker 2: I be an active ally? How can I support my friends?
Speaker 2: And also not even your friends. You know, some people say, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, I have a black friend and that's enough.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like, well, that's not really to have
Speaker 2: a black friend. Great, good for you, but what are
Speaker 2: you doing? Are you supporting them? Are you buying a
Speaker 2: ticket to their show? Are you standing up for them
Speaker 2: when someone says something about them when they're not there?
Speaker 2: Like are you really having the conversations with your parents
Speaker 2: or your grandparents over the dinner table when they might
Speaker 2: say something that's not quite right? Just say something, you know,
Speaker 2: not everything has to be a huge fight. Really, think
Speaker 2: about who you're talking to, how you're talking to them,
Speaker 2: and don't be afraid of it. I know it's hard.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it can be hard, but honestly, it's hard for
Speaker 2: us too, and we need people, we need non black
Speaker 2: people to be helping us because this is hundreds of
Speaker 2: years of work that we've been doing and we're still
Speaker 2: doing it and it's really would be so nice to
Speaker 2: have some help.
Speaker 1: There, so so important. Thank you so much, Ayisha that
Speaker 1: that last bet, Thank you so much for sharing that
Speaker 1: with us, and I couldn't agree more. And I guess
Speaker 1: I just wanted to say thank you so much for
Speaker 1: making the time and coming on here and explaining these
Speaker 1: concepts and giving us further at education. And like I
Speaker 1: said before, like it is totally on us to take
Speaker 1: responsibilities to have the hard conversations, to be educating ourselves
Speaker 1: and to dig deeper. So yeah, I really appreciate your
Speaker 1: time and thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, it was so nice to chat
Speaker 2: with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and where can the audience Obviously I will link
Speaker 1: your podcast, but where can the audience sort of you know,
Speaker 1: come and find you and engage and interact with you? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Sure. So you can find me on Instagram at eh
Speaker 2: ash that's double E s H A s H. Or
Speaker 2: you can find Blackbirds on Instagram at b L dot
Speaker 2: c k B dot ds so blackbirds without the A
Speaker 2: and the I, And yeah, I'm always on there. You
Speaker 2: can definitely send me a message, you can email me
Speaker 2: hello at blackhiphenbirds dot net. But basically if you head
Speaker 2: to the Instagram, all the infos there, and I think
Speaker 2: it's really important to you know, have these conversations and
Speaker 2: keep talking and don't feel afraid. And also don't forget
Speaker 2: that Google is amazing and there's so much information out there.
Speaker 1: And that's a wrap on another episode of the Rise
Speaker 1: and Concer Podcast. I hope you got something valuable from it,
Speaker 1: and I want to say a big thank you for
Speaker 1: tuning in. I really really do appreciate it. If you're
Speaker 1: craving more than don't worry, I've got you sorted. We
Speaker 1: have our very own Rise and Conquer Community Facebook group
Speaker 1: where hundreds of like minded women joined to share in
Speaker 1: on stories, ask advice, and everything in between. I'd love
Speaker 1: for you to join us. Just search Rise and Concer
Speaker 1: Podcast Community or find the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1: And if you loved listening as much as I loved
Speaker 1: recording this episode, then please subscribe and leave a review.
Speaker 1: It really helps us out. And if you think of
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Speaker 1: at risinconcor dot podcast and more from me your hosts
Speaker 1: at Georgie Stevenson. Once again, guys, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for tuning in. This is a totally independent podcast, so
Speaker 1: we really do appreciate every bit of support. Hope you
Speaker 1: guys have an amazing day or night whenever you're listening,
Speaker 1: and I'll talk to you soon