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Speaker 1: Jonesy and Amanda in the morning one w sat well.

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Speaker 1: Our next guest was Australia's twenty ninth Prime Minister. He

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Speaker 1: led the country in very different times. The former PM

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Speaker 1: has opened up about his wins, his darkest days in

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Speaker 1: a very brutally honest way, and he's also lashed out

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Speaker 1: and being very honest about the ones he says betrayed him.

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Speaker 1: It's a new menoi called a Bigger Picture by Malcolm Turnbull.

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Speaker 1: He joins us now, Malcolm, good morning.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Great to be with you, Malcolm.

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Speaker 3: Question number one is soup a meal?

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Speaker 1: Oh? We were just discussing this earlier.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess so. I guess it depends what kind

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Speaker 2: of soup it is. It's a big, chunky soup, like

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Speaker 2: a big minestraane. I guess that's a meal. Yes, in

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Speaker 2: the rule, it's probably not much of a meal.

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Speaker 3: When did the soup people get to you?

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Speaker 2: Man?

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Speaker 3: Where's a meal? I agree? Okay? Second question, would you

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Speaker 3: like to be Prime Minister right now?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'd love to be. It's the best job in Australia.

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Speaker 2: It's a great it is a you know, it's a

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Speaker 2: fantastic job. Yeah, there's never a bad day.

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Speaker 1: To be even in the midst of this crisis. We're

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Speaker 1: going through a health crisis, a financial crisis. Do you

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Speaker 1: look at that and think I'd like to be in charge.

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Speaker 2: Well the answer is yes, but not in a you

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Speaker 2: know only you know, not in any sort of realistic way.

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Speaker 2: I mean, my time in politics is over. My prime

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Speaker 2: ministership came to an end in twenty eighteen and as

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Speaker 2: all you know, all prime ministers do get to the

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Speaker 2: end of their time and office. So you know, but

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Speaker 2: anyone every day that your prime minister is a good day,

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Speaker 2: even if it's a bad day.

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Speaker 3: Do you think Scott Morrison's doing a good job?

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Speaker 2: Look, yes, I think the I think so yeah. I

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Speaker 2: mean I think the way that the prime Minister and

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Speaker 2: the premiers and chief ministers of working together, well they

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Speaker 2: there was a bit of a there was some raggedness

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Speaker 2: at the beginning and some mixed messaging. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I said, look, this is you've got to cut people

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Speaker 2: of it a slack here. I mean, this is an

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Speaker 2: unprecedented situation. There's no rule book that tells you how

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Speaker 2: to deal with something like this. You know, the last

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Speaker 2: time we had a sort of global pandemic of this

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Speaker 2: scale was after the First World War. At the end

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Speaker 2: of the First World War. No one can remember that

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Speaker 2: very well. So I think the you know, if I

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Speaker 2: was to say, I think we've, I think we've. We're

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Speaker 2: handling it so far, touch Wood better than many other countries,

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Speaker 2: certainly better than the Americans are, let alone the Italians

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Speaker 2: and the Spanish. But the but I'd say, the one

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Speaker 2: big mistake that was made by our government, but by

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Speaker 2: all governments, so this is not singling out Scomo or

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Speaker 2: anyone here, was not to shut down that cruise industry

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Speaker 2: from early February. I mean the minute that Diamond Princess

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Speaker 2: ship off Tokyo demonstrated or in a manifested all those infections,

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Speaker 2: the penny should have dropped with a big thud. And

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Speaker 2: it'd be very interesting to know where the government's actually

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Speaker 2: considered doing that, because honestly, if you take the cruis

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Speaker 2: cruise ships out of our story on the coronavirus, we

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Speaker 2: would have a fraction of the infections here. So it

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Speaker 2: was the most deadly vector of infection for Australia.

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Speaker 1: There are some extraordinary claims in your book. You say

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Speaker 1: that your party, the Liberal Party, would have preferred Bill

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Speaker 1: Shorten to win the election. Then you now, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't say the Liberal Party, I say people in the

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Speaker 2: Liberal Party. Some people in the Liberal Party, certainly Abbott

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Speaker 2: and his supporters. Definitely, that was definitely their strategy. They

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Speaker 2: were pretty plain about that, and they had supporters in

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Speaker 2: the media and the Murdoch media, as Rupert Murdock acknowledged himself.

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Speaker 2: And this quoted conversation with Rupert which I had with

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Speaker 2: a witness, I might say, in case he wants to

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Speaker 2: deny who takes shorthand, so the you know, it's pretty

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Speaker 2: pretty brutal and extraordinary. Mean, the crazy plan was the

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Speaker 2: Abbot agenda was to bring down my government with the

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Speaker 2: expectation that would result in a Labor win and then

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Speaker 2: so Abbot could come back in opposition. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean Alan Jones was pushing this, pushing this to

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Speaker 2: Kerry Stakes at the end of twenty seventeen. You know

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Speaker 2: when he's Jones and Kredlin and Bolton that George Christensen's

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Speaker 2: character from Queensland were all sort of had a sort

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Speaker 2: of a plan to have Christians across the floor and

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Speaker 2: bring down the government. At the end of twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's most of that's has been in the

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Speaker 2: public domain for a while. How do you feel about

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Speaker 2: bad news?

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Speaker 3: How do you feel, Malcolm about the book coming out? Now?

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Speaker 3: Are you thinking, is this a good time or a

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Speaker 3: bad time for it?

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Speaker 2: Well, well, look it's a bad time. I'm in the

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Speaker 2: sense that it's a bad time. Well, it's a bad

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Speaker 2: time in the sense it's a bad time for everybody.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is not a good time to be

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Speaker 2: trying to promote or sell anything really. I mean a

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Speaker 2: lot of bookstores have been closed, a lot of you know,

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Speaker 2: people aren't kidding, they aren't going to airports and buying books.

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Speaker 2: So but you know, we when you do. You know,

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Speaker 2: the book business is a manufacturing business. I mean you

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Speaker 2: are you know, there's an Australian printer that prints, you know,

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Speaker 2: forty fifty odd thousand copies of the book, that has

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Speaker 2: a whole lead time to it. And so we had

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Speaker 2: set the April twenty date. Excuse me. We set the

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Speaker 2: April twenty date some time ago last year, and we

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Speaker 2: looked at whether we should defer it or change it.

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Speaker 2: We couldn't actually identify what would be a better date.

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Speaker 2: You know, we don't know, so I guess life has

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Speaker 2: to go on. You know, your you know, your business

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Speaker 2: goes on. Booksellers want to solve a book. The publisher

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Speaker 2: needs the cash flow, the printer wants to be paid,

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Speaker 2: you know. So I think you've got to You've got

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Speaker 2: to decide and say, well, we're not going to let

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Speaker 2: the virus shut everything down.

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Speaker 1: People see you as as a strong, in control guy.

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Speaker 1: You've been very honest in this book that that wasn't

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Speaker 1: always the case in your political life. You you had

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Speaker 1: you felt pretty low, didn't you.

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Speaker 2: I did. Yeah. After I was dumped as leader and

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Speaker 2: the end of two thousand and nine, I am. In

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Speaker 2: the following year, in twenty ten, I fell into a

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Speaker 2: very very dark, deep depression and I was very ill

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Speaker 2: for a while. And you know I write about that.

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Speaker 2: I mean interesting, you know what's what's in. I think

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Speaker 2: readers will find it interesting, But to be honest, I

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Speaker 2: found it interesting. I mean actually quite disturbing. When I

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Speaker 2: found these diary entries I made in twenty ten when

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Speaker 2: I was really sick, and I'd just written down how

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Speaker 2: I was feeling, and I'd locked them away in a

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Speaker 2: file which I had a password on, and I'd forgotten

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Speaker 2: the password. I'd forgotten the file was there, I'd forgotten

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Speaker 2: the password, and then I found this in a in

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Speaker 2: a drop box and I suddenly the passwords sprang back

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Speaker 2: into my mind. It was quite uncanny because it wasn't

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Speaker 2: you know, the dog's name or something like that. And

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Speaker 2: just to read that again it was you know, sort

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Speaker 2: of almost gave me PTSD reading it. But look, the

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Speaker 2: important thing was I confronted it. I got over it.

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Speaker 2: And I hope that that chapter, which is a lot

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Speaker 2: of people have found hard or you know, have found

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Speaker 2: pretty raw to read, I hope that it provides people

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Speaker 2: with some help and encouragement. Certainly that's the feedback up we.

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Speaker 3: Were driven to self harm or something like that, welcome.

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Speaker 2: We obviously, Yeah, totally. I had you know, suicidal thoughts

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Speaker 2: of death in my mind all the time. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: get them out of my mind. It was a dreadful time, really,

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Speaker 2: And you see, I'd never had that problem before, so,

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Speaker 2: you know, like like everyone, I kind of knew, you know,

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Speaker 2: I knew about mental illness. I knew that was something

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Speaker 2: we had to be very concerned about, but until it

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Speaker 2: really hit me, I had no idea what it was like. Well,

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Speaker 2: no real idea what it was like. And it was scarifying. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's very hard.

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Speaker 1: Well, it must have been a very interesting experience for

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Speaker 1: you to write this book, and I know that you're

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Speaker 1: sort of dealing with the fallout of people feeling that

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Speaker 1: you're a scorned lover as you're recounting your stories as

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Speaker 1: our prime minister.

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Speaker 3: But the book is called A Bigger Picture.

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Speaker 1: Sure, Malcolm, thanks for joining.

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Speaker 2: Us, Thanks so much.

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Speaker 3: Thank you Malcolm. Before you go, do you want to

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Speaker 3: change your position on the soup stance.

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Speaker 1: No is a meal. It is a meal.

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Speaker 2: I think it. I think it is. Yes, that's well,

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Speaker 2: I guess. I guess you could argue just giving you

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Speaker 2: could argue that the type of soup that I'm suggesting

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Speaker 2: can be a meal as perhaps closer to a stew

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Speaker 2: or a castse roll. See, I think we've got Here's

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Speaker 2: another question. Where does soup end and a stew begin?

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Speaker 1: That is for another day.

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Speaker 3: This will be on This is going to be on

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Speaker 3: Q and A next week. Okay, this stuff Australia wants today.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Malcolm Turnble. Thank you. Check out the book

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Speaker 3: Malcolm's memoir A Bigger Picture in bookstores today.

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Speaker 2: Join the and Amanda in Good Morning One, Tell You