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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now Doctor Justin Coolson.

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Speaker 1: He's our parenting expert leading us through this discussion today

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Speaker 1: is we addressed the whole concept of autonomy for our children.

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Speaker 1: I'm Susie Luke's here with me as well.

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Speaker 2: Let's get started, doctor Justin. I had a moment where

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Speaker 2: I had a ten year old tantrum in a public place.

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Speaker 2: Who then we had a fight. He was arguing with me.

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Speaker 3: He was clearly wrong, says.

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Speaker 2: The man who has to be right, until he said

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Speaker 2: something that made me very aware that I was clearly wrong.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 2: One of those moments where you go, you're so proud

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Speaker 2: of your son for being so intelligent and articulate, and

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Speaker 2: so angry at him for being so intelligent and articulate.

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Speaker 3: He put you in your place. Yes, completely, Well what happened,

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Speaker 3: let's okay.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, So to try and keep the story as short

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Speaker 2: as possible, so we've got time to deal with the

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Speaker 2: therapy I need.

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Speaker 4: Today.

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Speaker 1: That's your role.

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Speaker 2: He was avoiding going on rides at the park. We're

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Speaker 2: rat that were a bit more ad dress on appropriate

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Speaker 2: for his age. But he was a bit nervous about it,

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Speaker 2: so he was instead going on the title of rides.

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Speaker 2: I knew that his history shows that whenever he builds

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Speaker 2: up enough courage to push through that and do it,

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Speaker 2: he loves it. So I was trying to encourage him

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Speaker 2: to do it, not to I was. I was trying

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Speaker 2: to keep his choice that he shows what to do,

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Speaker 2: but to give him multiple reasons why it would be

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Speaker 2: a good thing to do, because I wanted him to

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Speaker 2: have fun.

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Speaker 3: And you want him to expand his experience while.

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Speaker 2: There, and the history if he was one that showed

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Speaker 2: that he hates it and it's just fun to me,

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Speaker 2: but it wasn't to him that I would not have

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Speaker 2: done it. But he's shown that he loves doing it

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Speaker 2: whenever he pushes through that nervousness barrier. So then I

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Speaker 2: knew he wanted fairy fly so I said, if you

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Speaker 2: take this ride, then you'll have some fairy floss. He

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Speaker 2: got so.

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Speaker 3: Upset with me. Yeah, I can see why. Well, I

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Speaker 3: don't like that you saw it.

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Speaker 2: I wish this was less obvious what I was doing wrong.

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Speaker 2: But he got so upset with me, and he yelled

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Speaker 2: at me, and he took off and he hid in

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Speaker 2: a public place.

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Speaker 3: I was furious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so, like I said, I don't even know

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Speaker 2: how to respond when we got gotting back. I don't

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Speaker 2: even know where to go from here, because on the

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Speaker 2: one hand, his behavior was like, it's so against everything

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Speaker 2: we've always talked to them about that. The idea is

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Speaker 2: that how do we keep having a good time with

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Speaker 2: him and then reward him storming off and not but

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Speaker 2: not punish the other brothers? And I'm like, how do

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Speaker 2: I even where do I even go from here? So

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Speaker 2: I was talking to him, and he was yelling at

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Speaker 2: me for trying to force him to do something he

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Speaker 2: didn't want to do. And I said, I wasn't. I

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Speaker 2: wasn't trying to force you to do anything. I was

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Speaker 2: giving you the choice. I absolutely was trying to convince

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Speaker 2: you because I think that you would have had a

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Speaker 2: really good time. So I was giving you reasons to

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Speaker 2: convince you. And he said, no, you were trying to

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Speaker 2: force me because I wanted fairy Floss and I didn't

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Speaker 2: want to go on the ride, and you made it

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Speaker 2: so that I had to make miss out on one

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 4: He felt manipulated, he felt controlled, He felt like you

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Speaker 4: were taking away his autonomy.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well that's enough.

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Speaker 1: That's a big word, though, isn't it autonomous. He's ten now,

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Speaker 1: and I reckon just in the last couple of months

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Speaker 1: he's taken a big leap forward in emotional mature already,

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Speaker 1: and in that I don't think a few months ago

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Speaker 1: he would have been able to articulate that that that

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Speaker 1: spot that Luke put him in. But he and I

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Speaker 1: even had a conversation recently where I felt like he

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Speaker 1: articulated well what he was feeling. But he also was

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Speaker 1: really good at coming to his own conclusions.

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Speaker 3: It's a new level, isn't that exciting? As your kids developed?

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Speaker 4: But autonomy, we're built with this desire to make our

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Speaker 4: own choices, to behave volitionally. The scientific term is I

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Speaker 4: want to behave volitionally. I want to feel like I'm

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Speaker 4: in control. And when we get technical and talk about

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Speaker 4: what Luke's done here, when we make rewards conditional on

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Speaker 4: a certain behavior, that can feel controlling, that can feel manipulative.

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Speaker 4: Now I know that life kind of works like that.

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Speaker 4: You know, we go to work and we get the reward.

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Speaker 4: You don't get paid if you don't show up. I

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Speaker 4: get that but in this context, you're there to have

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Speaker 4: fun as a family. It's not supposed to be a

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Speaker 4: time where love is shown contingently, you know, do this

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Speaker 4: and you'll get that. And so what's happened is he's

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Speaker 4: been feeling safe and he's been feeling like he belongs there.

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Speaker 4: And I mean this applies not just to you at

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Speaker 4: the theme park with your son. This applies to any

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Speaker 4: parent who's tried to coax their child to live expansively

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Speaker 4: and that child is responding with a little bit of apprehension,

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Speaker 4: a little bit of fear, a little bit of anxiety.

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Speaker 4: What's actually going on inside their brain is the limpic system,

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Speaker 4: the part of the brain that's in charge of emotions,

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Speaker 4: specifically the amygdala, which is the bit that regulates fear responses.

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Speaker 4: It goes into overdrive. Is the part of the brain

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Speaker 4: that says, I must protect you at all costs.

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Speaker 1: My eight year old calls it the guard dog.

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Speaker 3: That's it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, so the amigdala is the little guard dog

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Speaker 4: goes don't go there, stay away, I don't want to

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Speaker 4: go on that ride, looks scary. Over protection mode. All

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Speaker 4: of a sudden in walk's dad or mum and says,

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Speaker 4: but you love it when you do this sort of thing,

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Speaker 4: and this is going to give you new experiences, and

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Speaker 4: this is going to help you to build resilience and

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Speaker 4: be courageous and be brave. And we do this all

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Speaker 4: the time with our kids. Right, you can ride the bike,

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Speaker 4: you can cross the balance, you can climb the rock wall,

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Speaker 4: you can go on the adventure thingy, a dream world

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Speaker 4: or whatever whatever it is. And so we try to

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Speaker 4: bribe them, but what happens in their brain is they

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Speaker 4: start to seize up.

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Speaker 3: They start to get even more concerned because now.

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Speaker 4: They're saying, I'm feeling afraid, and you're trying to make

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Speaker 4: me do something that makes me feel even more afraid.

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Speaker 4: The real trick is how do we get past that

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Speaker 4: because they in many cases, not in all cases, but

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Speaker 4: in many cases, it's good for them to do that,

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Speaker 4: and yet we want to help them to feel safe.

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Speaker 2: So how do we find that line between helping them

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Speaker 2: to see what they should be doing versus giving them

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Speaker 2: the autonomy to choose.

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Speaker 3: So tricky, this is going to be so good for you,

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Speaker 3: but I don't want to do it.

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Speaker 4: But it's going to be I'll bribe you, I'll do

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Speaker 4: anything to make you do it, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 4: you're controlling me.

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Speaker 3: You make me feel horrible. I reckon.

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Speaker 4: It takes well, it takes time, and it takes patience,

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Speaker 4: and it takes compassion. You may remember in another conversation

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Speaker 4: we had to talk about how compassion means that we

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Speaker 4: actually suffer with our children. That's the literal meaning compassion

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Speaker 4: is to suffer with. And I think that when our

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Speaker 4: kids are really resistant to something that we know is

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Speaker 4: going to be good for them, trying to use some

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Speaker 4: sort of an extrinsic motivator is typically going to backfire.

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Speaker 4: They're going to get upset with us, They're going to

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Speaker 4: feel manipulated and coerced, and it's going to turn into

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Speaker 4: tantrums or worse, they might run off into public places

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Speaker 4: your son did with you, Luke, and say no, no, I'm

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Speaker 4: not part of this at all.

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Speaker 3: I reckon.

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Speaker 4: The best thing that we can do is say my

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Speaker 4: sense that this is making you feel really nervous, and

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Speaker 4: then just wait and they say, yes, I'm afraid. What

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Speaker 4: we're trying to do is we're trying to tap into

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Speaker 4: or explore the emotional while that they're experiencing. Now, I know,

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Speaker 4: some people are rolling, they're rising, going. Oh, for goodness sakes,

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Speaker 4: this is all that touchy feely stuff. We've got to

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Speaker 4: tap into their emotional world. I don't have time for this.

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Speaker 4: They just need to do it, And sometimes they actually

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Speaker 4: might just need to do it, depending on where you

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Speaker 4: are and what your circumstances are. But more often than not,

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Speaker 4: we can actually have a two minute conversation and that's

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Speaker 4: about all it takes. But by the way, how much

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Speaker 4: time did you lose looking for your son and then

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Speaker 4: him and try to work through it all? Much easier

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Speaker 4: to do it the right way at the start than

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Speaker 4: try to fix it all up at the end. So

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Speaker 4: for two minutes, you say a sense that you're really

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Speaker 4: scared about this. What is it that worries about you?

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Speaker 4: What is it that you're worried about in relation to

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Speaker 4: doing this? Once you kind of have a good picture

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Speaker 4: of what's going on for them, their emotions start to

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Speaker 4: drop down. I know I've said this to you before

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Speaker 4: as well. High emotions, low intelligence. While they're feeling anxious,

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Speaker 4: while he doesn't want to go on the ride, whay,

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Speaker 4: they don't. They don't want to have that new experience.

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Speaker 4: Emotions going through the roof because the guard dog of

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Speaker 4: their brain they're a mink dog, is going or I'll

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Speaker 4: stay away over protection, and they can't think through it.

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Speaker 4: As we talk through how they're feeling and say, I

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Speaker 4: get it. Sometimes I feel nervous too, and you know,

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Speaker 4: let's talk about that nervousness. The guard dog stops barking,

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Speaker 4: they start to feel stable and level emotionally. Their emotions

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Speaker 4: drop down, which means their intelligence goes back up. They

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Speaker 4: can start to have a logical conversation with you, at

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Speaker 4: which point you say, well, there's a couple of reasons

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Speaker 4: I reckon this is something that we should do together.

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Speaker 4: Let's talk about them. And so you might say we

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Speaker 4: want to stay together as a family, or can you

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Speaker 4: see how much everyone's laughing, Or we think that this

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Speaker 4: will be something that you will really enjoy it.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember that time when we did the tree.

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Speaker 4: Tops walk and you were so scared, but when we

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Speaker 4: came out of that walk, you thought that was incredible.

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Speaker 3: All the time we went on that really.

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Speaker 4: Fast thingy, Do you know whatever it is that they've

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Speaker 4: done that pushed them once before the time we did that,

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Speaker 4: you didn't want to do it, but you felt so good.

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Speaker 3: I reckon, this is one of those times.

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Speaker 4: Now if I'm wrong, I'm not going to ask you

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Speaker 4: to do any more scary things at all today. But

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Speaker 4: I reckon, I'm right this time. Will you try it

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Speaker 4: just once? So you have this conversation where you explore

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Speaker 4: their world, you explain your position, and then you empower them.

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Speaker 1: What if after saying I think this is good now,

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Speaker 1: they still say no, Can do we just accept that.

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Speaker 3: Yes and no? It depends.

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Speaker 4: I think it really depends on the situation on the child,

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Speaker 4: where you are, how much pressure there is. I'm the

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Speaker 4: kind of dad, a bit like Luke, and I think

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Speaker 4: it's a dad thing. Dad's like, come on, you can

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Speaker 4: do it. You know, Dads do tend to push their

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Speaker 4: kids to take a little bit more of a risk,

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Speaker 4: and the research around risk taking that kids who take

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Speaker 4: more risks tend to be more resilient. They tend to

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Speaker 4: also understand their limits better because taking the risks helps

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Speaker 4: them to find their limits more effectively and it does

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Speaker 4: tend to aid their positive development. Mums are more likely

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Speaker 4: and I know I'm dividing this along gender and it's

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Speaker 4: not always, but as a generality, mums are more likely

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Speaker 4: to say it's okay, you don't have to. So as

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Speaker 4: a dad, I'm more inclined to say, let's just push

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Speaker 4: a little more. And you might say, I'll tell you

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Speaker 4: what Now that I understand you and you understand me,

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Speaker 4: you're still reluctant, Let's see if I can sweepen it.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to.

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Speaker 4: We're buying fairy floss anyway, but we'll get the fairy

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Speaker 4: floss as soon as the ride's done.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So the.

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Speaker 4: Fairy floss isn't conditional on riding or not. That turns

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Speaker 4: it into a reward and that's not fair. But what

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Speaker 4: we're doing is we're saying, instead of getting the fairy

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Speaker 4: floss at three o'clock the SAVO, when we leave, we'll

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Speaker 4: do the ride and then we'll get the fairy floss.

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Speaker 3: We're just bringing it forward. We're making it more salient,

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Speaker 3: more present.

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Speaker 4: The whole idea, though, is that we're giving them their autonomy,

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Speaker 4: and ultimately we want them to feel like they're choosing

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Speaker 4: it because they feel understood and they recognize that we've

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Speaker 4: got some wisdom and it could be worth doing. If

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Speaker 4: it turns into something where they start to go into

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Speaker 4: full meltdown mode, they start to have a genuine anxiety experience.

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Speaker 4: Then this is not something that we want to continue,

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Speaker 4: especially in a public place. It's just going to be

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Speaker 4: embarrassing and ugly for everyone. So we go and find

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Speaker 4: something else they're going to be happy with. But I think,

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Speaker 4: you know, push, listen, work with, don't do too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah mm hmm that's good. Yeah, don't do it too

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Speaker 2: then all right, I reckon, I reckon. There's enough for

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Speaker 2: me there to arm my toolkit there avoid that situation again.

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Speaker 2: Good luck, doctor, Thanks you know I'm going to need it,

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Speaker 2: Doctor Justin Coulson, thank you so.

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Speaker 3: Much, Thanks Luke, Thanks Lizzie.

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Speaker 1: For more information on this and loads of other topics

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Speaker 1: to do with parenting, you can go to the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families website happyfamilies dot com dot au. And if you're

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Speaker 1: interested in having doctor Justin Coulson come and speak at

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Speaker 1: your event, then find out more details at Justin Coulson

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Speaker 1: dot com