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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.

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Speaker 2: Now. Hello, this is doctor Justin Coilson. Welcome to Happy

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Speaker 2: Families Podcast. I'm so delighted to introduce you to my

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Speaker 2: guest today, Thomas Current.

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Speaker 1: Professor.

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Speaker 2: Thomas Current is a British Psychological Society charted psychologist and

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Speaker 2: an Associate professor in the Department of Psychological and Behavioral

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Speaker 2: Science at the London School of Economics.

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Speaker 1: A world leading expert on.

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Speaker 2: Perfectionism, and he's written on perfectionism and a whole lot

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Speaker 2: of related topics for Time Magazine and the Harvard Business Review.

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to interrupt the bio for a second, Thomas.

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling nervous talking to a perfectionism expert, Like I

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Speaker 2: feel like I have to get everything right, and I've

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Speaker 2: stumbled on a couple of words. I kind of want

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Speaker 2: to do a du over already.

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Speaker 1: Is that normal? Do people often tell you that you

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Speaker 1: make them nervous?

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Speaker 3: Well, to be honest, that job title is a mouthful,

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Speaker 3: so good job.

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Speaker 1: I'll hurled. I'm uncomfortab with the plays, but I'll take it.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. It's a wonderful in true thank you.

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Speaker 1: There is more. There is more, okay, Doctor Tom.

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Speaker 2: Dr Tom Currin's work has been featured in The New Scientist,

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Speaker 2: in the Times of London and has covered a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of international publications, including The Guardian, The Economist, The Telegraph,

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Speaker 2: The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times and Arian

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Speaker 2: Huffington's Thrived Global Campaign. Oh and a few years ago

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Speaker 2: he gave a Ted Med talk that's Ted Talks but

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Speaker 2: for medical people, entitled and I've watched this a couple

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Speaker 2: of times and gotten so much out of it.

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Speaker 1: Our dangerous obsession with perfectionism is getting worse.

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Speaker 2: And on top of that, this year he published his

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Speaker 2: debut book, The Perfection Trap. And Doctor Thomas Current is

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Speaker 2: also a dad to a little baby, not quite one.

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Speaker 2: So with all of that out of the way, welcome.

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Speaker 2: It's so good to be able to talk to you.

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Speaker 2: I'm thrilled to have you on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, justin. It's wonderful to be here. I'm really

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Speaker 3: excited about a conversation.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with some fundamentals for any parent who worries

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Speaker 2: that their child is perfectionistic?

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Speaker 1: What is perfectionism?

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Speaker 3: So perfectionism is a it's a personality characteristic, and it's

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Speaker 3: it's a way of thinking and seeing the world in

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Speaker 3: which we feel we're not enough, basically, that we are

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Speaker 3: not perfect enough, that we don't have enough skills or

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Speaker 3: abilities or competencies. We're not intelligent enough, not attractive enough,

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Speaker 3: not fair, not healthy enough, all of these kind of

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Speaker 3: you know, not fill in the blank enough basically.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that all of us?

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Speaker 2: Though, Like, don't we all just have that, I mean daily,

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Speaker 2: sometimes hourly, as soon as we stop in introspect, do

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Speaker 2: anything that could be remotely comparing us ourselves to anyone else.

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Speaker 2: Don't we all feel like we are not enough? Would

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Speaker 2: that not make us all perfectionists?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's a spectrum, so it's not. It's not ideal

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Speaker 3: to think about perfectionism as a sort of I'm a afectionist,

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Speaker 3: you're not a perfectionist, right. We're all on the perfectionism

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Speaker 3: spectrum at some level, and some people are lower, some

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Speaker 3: people are higher, some people are more or less in

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Speaker 3: the middle where most people are and everywhere in between.

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Speaker 3: And as a consequence, it's really important thing about perfectionism

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Speaker 3: as how perfectionistic are you? And some people have a

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Speaker 3: lot of intolerance for imperfection. They will worry a lot

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Speaker 3: about how they look, how they appear relative to other people.

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Speaker 3: They'll think very deeply and careful about how they can

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Speaker 3: conceal and hide their imperfections from other people in the

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Speaker 3: world around us, to try to really soothe those shame

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Speaker 3: based fears of not feeling enough. You know, this would

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Speaker 3: be somebody who's very high perfectionism, right, they go for

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Speaker 3: like thinking about these things almost on a minute by

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Speaker 3: minute basis, and of course somebody who's lower on those things. Yes,

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Speaker 3: they will feel in certain scenarios and situations in their

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Speaker 3: lives that perhaps that didn't go quite so well, and

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Speaker 3: I feel a little bit and adequate in that moment.

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Speaker 3: But they're always a bounced back quite quickly. They don't

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Speaker 3: dwell on it, and it doesn't have an overriding impact

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Speaker 3: on their life. It's really when it takes over that

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Speaker 3: perfectionism is really in the driving seat, and that's where

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Speaker 3: you need to be worried.

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Speaker 2: So is there an age where perfectionism doesn't exist, or

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Speaker 2: maybe a better way to say it is, at what

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Speaker 2: age do we start to see these perfectionistic tendencies creep

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Speaker 2: into our children's lives?

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Speaker 3: Like most personality characteristics. You're looking here sort of mid

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Speaker 3: to late adolescence, when the personality really crystallizes and these

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Speaker 3: tendencies can start to become dominant features of our identities.

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Speaker 3: It's important to remember that this is very heavily genetic,

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Speaker 3: by the way, and like most parent yeah, oh absolutely,

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Speaker 3: like most personality characteristics, and the way we turn out

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Speaker 3: is about half fifty percent predetermined by genetics. Nothing we

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Speaker 3: could do about that, just the way we're born. And

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Speaker 3: I think something, well, I think there's something remarkably comforting

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Speaker 3: about that. Actually, when I was doing research for the

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Speaker 3: book on person and how It's formed. At first, it's

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Speaker 3: quite a confronting statistic, but actually, when you actually think

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Speaker 3: about it, I think it takes a lot of personal

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Speaker 3: power over the development of our characters. And actually, I

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Speaker 3: don't know there was some solace to be found there. However,

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Speaker 3: having said that, fifty percent still leaves a lot for

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Speaker 3: the environment to explain. Right, So, as young people grow up,

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Speaker 3: as they start to internalize things that are going on

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Speaker 3: around them in the scores and social media, the parental environment,

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Speaker 3: and all sorts of other places, there are all sorts

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Speaker 3: of different pressures being thrown at them influencers being thrown

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Speaker 3: at them and of course going to internalize those things,

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Speaker 3: and they also have a massive impact on the way

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Speaker 3: we turn out too. And so pervectionism is really an

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Speaker 3: intricate mix of genes and an environment. But yes, very

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Speaker 3: heavily genetic, and the rest of it is explained out

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Speaker 3: there in the big wide world.

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Speaker 2: So you talk about three different types of perfectionism in

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Speaker 2: some of your research, can you explore those and explain

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Speaker 2: those for parents, just briefly, the three different ways that

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Speaker 2: we might be experiencing perfectionism.

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Speaker 3: Yes, this is really important for people to be aware

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Speaker 3: of because perfectionism can often look like high self set

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Speaker 3: goals and standards. Right, So you're seeing young people need

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Speaker 3: to be perfect to nothing but perfect all the time,

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Speaker 3: just nailing every test, appearing perfectly at every possible moment.

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Speaker 3: That there will be so much pressure to always excel,

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Speaker 3: and there's a tendency to think that that's something that

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Speaker 3: only comes from within. But actually, when you talk to

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Speaker 3: perfection set people and you look closer about this trade,

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Speaker 3: you see that it isn't just about high self set

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Speaker 3: expectations and goals. You'll also see a very strong social

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Speaker 3: component to perfectionism too, So perfections that people will not

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Speaker 3: just try to shoot for high self set standards, but

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Speaker 3: they'll also perceive that everybody else expects them to attain

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Speaker 3: those standards. This is called socially prescribed perfections and the

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Speaker 3: idea that everyone and all around me expects me to

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Speaker 3: be perfect and I have to live up to those

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Speaker 3: expectations all the time, and if I fall short, they're waiting,

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Speaker 3: they're watching, and they're going to let me know. And

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Speaker 3: there's also a third element of perfectionism. This is what

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Speaker 3: I guess void would call projection, where those high self

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Speaker 3: set standards that we expect of ourselves we also expect

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Speaker 3: of other people too, and this is called other oriented perfectionism.

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Speaker 3: So this is perfectionism turned outwards under other people.

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Speaker 1: I expect you to.

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Speaker 3: Be perfect, and if you're not, then I'm going to

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Speaker 3: let you know. So these are the three ways I

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Speaker 3: suppose the perfectionism can express and I think it's really

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Speaker 3: important that people aware of them, because there's a tendency

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Speaker 3: to think it's just about those self driven standards and expectations,

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Speaker 3: but actually it's far deeper than that. This is a

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Speaker 3: relation or trait. It operates in the social world, and

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Speaker 3: it's actually those social elements of perfections and we need

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Speaker 3: to be very very aware of. They're the most extreme

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Speaker 3: and they're most strongly linked with mental distress.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I was going to say, in terms of

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Speaker 2: the different ways that perfectionism shows up in our lives,

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Speaker 2: which one do we need to be most aware of?

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Speaker 2: And it sounds like you're saying the socially prescribed perfectionism.

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Speaker 2: To me, it seems that a couple of these work together.

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Speaker 2: So when you have that self oriented perfectionism that's just

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Speaker 2: totally on you, you're the one who's driving yourself. You're

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Speaker 2: the one who's pushing yourself. You're the one who's cracking

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Speaker 2: the whip against your own back and just saying, come on,

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Speaker 2: I've got to do more. I'm never good enough. But

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Speaker 2: it seems that the socially prescribed perfectionism where you feel

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Speaker 2: pressure from others, and the other oriented perfectionism, where somebody

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Speaker 2: is actually putting their expectation on you, it seems that

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Speaker 2: they're linked. In other words, if I'm a really hardcore

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Speaker 2: parent who's constantly seeing to my kids, why do you

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Speaker 2: want to get an A? I expect an A plus

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Speaker 2: you're not going to get the hundred dollars, you don't

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Speaker 2: get the puppy dog that I promised.

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Speaker 1: You didn't score high enough, you can do better.

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Speaker 2: That's me doing that projection and having that hardcore control

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Speaker 2: or expectation of my child. But then they're going to

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Speaker 2: be experienced the socially prescribed affections. In other words, those

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Speaker 2: two seem to work in harmony. Would that be right

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Speaker 2: to say? Or are they completely different things? No?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's like you know, watercolors and a painter's palette.

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Speaker 3: They all bleed into each other. And the thing is

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Speaker 3: what you have to recognize two is this is a worldview.

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Speaker 3: So if you're expecting yourself to be perfect and hauling

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Speaker 3: yourself over hot coals, well of course you're going to

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Speaker 3: think in your mind that other people think those things

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Speaker 3: do So therefore there's a social expectation on you that

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Speaker 3: other people are placing because they have those same standards

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Speaker 3: that I have. Now you have to be careful here

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Speaker 3: because even though this is a worldview and it is

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Speaker 3: in you know, embodied in how we think can feel

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Speaker 3: about our own perfectionism, that doesn't mean to say that

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Speaker 3: it's only you know, confined to the interiors. Right there

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Speaker 3: are so many external pressures right now to be perfect,

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Speaker 3: and there really are people watching weight into powers, particularly

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Speaker 3: in those massive spheres of social media, where you'll be

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Speaker 3: lett know instantly if a piece of content that you've

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Speaker 3: put out wasn't perfect enough.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: So, even though this is a worldview, it doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: there is an objective reality where there are excessive pressures

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Speaker 3: to be perfect. But nevertheless, you're absolutely right there. Of course,

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Speaker 3: if you're high and self oriented, you're likely to be

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Speaker 3: high in social for those reasons, and you're also likely

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Speaker 3: to be higher enough oriented, and this can this is

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Speaker 3: where it can really become a difficult spiral because they're

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Speaker 3: very much self reinforcing. And also you're talking about intergenerational

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Speaker 3: transmission there well. Of course, you know, if you're a

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Speaker 3: highly self were into perfectionist, then you have those other

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Speaker 3: oriented and tendencies, then you're likely then to pass on

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Speaker 3: that it's perfection tendencies to your children too, So it

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Speaker 3: can become a really difficult intergenerational cycle too, where perfections

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Speaker 3: them self perpetuates.

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Speaker 2: So when I think about what you said earlier, that

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Speaker 2: we see perfectionism showing up most in MINTI late adolescents,

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Speaker 2: that intergenerational aspect, that socially prescribed element.

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Speaker 1: You're answer kind of took me by surprise, because I

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Speaker 1: do talk to.

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Speaker 2: A lot of parents who will tell me that their

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Speaker 2: five year old or their seven year old is such

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Speaker 2: a perfectionist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's the genetic piece. You will see certain

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Speaker 3: early indicators of let's say, meticulousness, diligence. Children who have

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Speaker 3: you know, really an intense what seems like anyway, an

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Speaker 3: intense I need to do things just right. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's a kind of need for order and structure and

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Speaker 3: all the rest of it. You certainly would see that.

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Speaker 3: But that can you know, as a growler can express

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Speaker 3: in all sorts of different ways. It doesn't always have

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Speaker 3: to turn into perfectionism. And it's only really, as I say,

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Speaker 3: in mid to late adolescents where these things start to

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Speaker 3: really crystallize and turn into a more coherent personality that

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Speaker 3: makes us us, and part of that personality may be

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Speaker 3: perfectionistic tendency.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Now you mentioned, Thomas that there is a strong link

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Speaker 2: between mental health challenges and perfectionism.

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Speaker 1: Can we just explore a little further.

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Speaker 2: Because perfectionism doesn't show up in the in the International

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Speaker 2: Classification of diseases.

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Speaker 1: It's not in the Diagnostic.

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Speaker 2: And Statistical Manual that psychologists psychiatrists uses their bible for

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Speaker 2: mental health disorder classification. It is part of obsessive compulsive disorder,

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Speaker 2: but it's not actually out there as a perfectionism disorder

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Speaker 2: that people are diagnosing.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And the and the belief in the in the

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Speaker 3: academy is that you know, this is this is this

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Speaker 3: is something that sits underneath as you mentioned, they're obsessive

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Speaker 3: compulsive tendencies. But the thing is, and the thing that

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Speaker 3: a lot of clinicians have been arguing is that perfections

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Speaker 3: are way more than just obsessive tendencies at route. It's

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Speaker 3: this deficit thinking that I'm not good enough and and

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Speaker 3: and then in order to feel recognized, approved of love,

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Speaker 3: did I matter? That they have to be perfect because

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Speaker 3: there's only one way to guarantee that approval and that love,

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Speaker 3: and that's by being perfect. Otherwise, if I'm not, then,

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Speaker 3: as I've just mentioned, people are going to see that.

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Speaker 3: They're going to let me know. So if you live

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Speaker 3: your life constantly requiring improval, recognition, validation in order to

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Speaker 3: feel like you have a sense of self esteem. Well,

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Speaker 3: you're going to see self excessive goals all the time.

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Speaker 3: You're going to find them really difficult to meet because

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Speaker 3: they're too high. So you're going to experience more of

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Speaker 3: those setbacks as difficulties and count more of those mistakes

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Speaker 3: and challenging situations which are so important for your self esteem.

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Speaker 3: You're going to feel anxious. Self esteem is going to plummet,

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Speaker 3: particularly in difficult, challenging moments, and then you're going to

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Speaker 3: overcompensate to try to overcome those difficulties, challenges and failures

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Speaker 3: by working even harder, setting even higher goals. And you

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Speaker 3: can begin to see how perfections really sets in motion

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Speaker 3: a very challenging cycle of self defeat, which leads to

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Speaker 3: a lot of anxiety, a lot of low mood, a

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Speaker 3: lot of depression, a lot of worry, rumination about how

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Speaker 3: we're doing, hypervigilance of ourselves relative to others, self presentational concerns. Oh,

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Speaker 3: there's a whole plethora just of mental health outcomes that

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Speaker 3: perfectionism is linked to beyond just compulsive and obsessive tendencies,

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Speaker 3: and that's why we call it was called a transdiagnostic

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Speaker 3: risk factor for all manner of mental difficulties and it's

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Speaker 3: really want to be aware of because the relationships are

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Speaker 3: quite strong, and they're particularly for strong for that social

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Speaker 3: eleim socially prescribed.

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Speaker 2: The Perfection Trap is the book by Associate Professor Thomas

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Speaker 2: Current from the London School of Economics at Tom thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for your time and for joining me

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Speaker 2: on the Happy Family Podcast.

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Speaker 3: Faie Justin has been a wonderful conversation.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like more info about.

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Speaker 2: Making your family happier, check out Tom Curran's book The

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Speaker 2: Perfection Trap. The Perfection Track is available wherever you boy

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Speaker 2: your books, or of course you can visit us at

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Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com dot au