Speaker 1: You can't just pick up the phone and call Jordan Calhoun,
Speaker 1: the editor in chief of Life Packer. Trust me, I tried.
Speaker 1: Jordan takes his time and attention seriously and protects them accordingly.
Speaker 1: His phone is set up so that you can only
Speaker 1: call him if he knows that it's coming. Thankfully, he
Speaker 1: knew I was calling him so he could appear on
Speaker 1: How I Work, and he did pick up and I.
Speaker 2: Came out of that call with a lot of new ideas.
Speaker 1: As well as being the editor in chief of Life Packer,
Speaker 1: one of my go to sources for inspiration on the web,
Speaker 1: He's also the podcast host of The Upgrade, which is
Speaker 1: kind of like How I Work, but for life.
Speaker 2: And I think it's better say.
Speaker 1: That Jordan is as nerdy as meat when it comes
Speaker 1: to productivity and thinking about how he spends his time.
Speaker 2: So aside from.
Speaker 1: Blocking calls, what other hacks has Jordan applied to minimizing
Speaker 1: distractions and interruptions? And I wanted to know why did
Speaker 1: jordans stop scheduling absolutely everything in his calendar like many
Speaker 1: productivity nerds like to do, and how has Jordan managed
Speaker 1: to weaponize accountability. My name is doctor Amantha Imba I'm
Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,
Speaker 1: and this is how I work a show about how
Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. When I was
Speaker 1: doing my research for this interview, I learned that Jordan
Speaker 1: had recently taken up skateboarding as an adult.
Speaker 2: So I wanted to know why would an adult.
Speaker 1: Decide to take up something that is normally reserved for kids.
Speaker 3: It's so rare that as an adult we tried new
Speaker 3: things usually because we're used to being competent, right like that,
Speaker 3: you reach a certain age and a certain proficiency at
Speaker 3: most of your skill sets where you don't want to
Speaker 3: start new things because you'll feel like an idiot. And
Speaker 3: I wanted to try to get over that. And I
Speaker 3: wanted to do something that I always wanted to do
Speaker 3: when I was a teenager, which is skateboarding. I had
Speaker 3: tried to get on once when I was a teenager
Speaker 3: and completely fell on my ribs and it hurt like hell,
Speaker 3: and I never got on a skateboard again until now
Speaker 3: when I'm in my mid thirties. So I decided to
Speaker 3: do this sort of fitness challenge where skateboarding would be
Speaker 3: my challenge. And I would see if I would learn
Speaker 3: how to ali in a month, whether I could, you know,
Speaker 3: quote unquote learn to skateboard.
Speaker 4: In a month.
Speaker 3: And my benchmark was the ALI, which is just being
Speaker 3: able to pop your skateboard off of the ground. And
Speaker 3: I was able to do that. It was a ton
Speaker 3: of fun and I'm really glad I did. I would
Speaker 3: ask you, like, what would you want to do? What
Speaker 3: did you want to do when you were about fifteen
Speaker 3: years old that you never got to do?
Speaker 1: Such a good question, isn't it, Because I actually I
Speaker 1: thought skateboarding was really cool, and as a girl when
Speaker 1: I was younger, I thought that would make me really cool.
Speaker 2: But my sense of balance just not the best. But
Speaker 2: it's funny. I did recently teach myself how.
Speaker 1: To knit, not that this was a lifelong dream when
Speaker 1: I was a teenager, but I did learn that skill
Speaker 1: in lockdown, and I know what you mean. It's interesting
Speaker 1: learning a new skill. And podcasting has been the same
Speaker 1: for me, so I've been doing it for over three
Speaker 1: years now. But I just remember one of the joys
Speaker 1: of starting how I work is You're absolutely right. It's
Speaker 1: so rare that we just start at the very very
Speaker 1: beginning with something in life.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it's gosh, it's good.
Speaker 1: I'm curious because I think it's it can be a
Speaker 1: bit daunting to know where do you start when you're
Speaker 1: starting from scratch. So what was your process for learning
Speaker 1: how to skateboard?
Speaker 3: I started by asking a million questions to other people,
Speaker 3: basically like, what would be a good benchmark goal if
Speaker 3: I'm going to quote unquote learn how to skateboard? What's
Speaker 3: a reasonable goal from a beginner for a beginner? And
Speaker 3: you end up hearing a lot of answers sort of
Speaker 3: pick and choose on which one makes sense for you.
Speaker 3: I think one of the best responses I got when
Speaker 3: I was asking more veteran skateboarders what I.
Speaker 4: Should set as a goal.
Speaker 3: When I got my skateboard at the skateboarding shop, I
Speaker 3: asked that question and someone who the sales clerk who
Speaker 3: was selling me the skateboards just stopped and looked at
Speaker 3: me in my eyes and said, it depends how dedicated
Speaker 3: are you. And that was It was such a you know,
Speaker 3: a non committal answer. You didn't give me the type
Speaker 3: of cut and dry answer that I wanted, but it
Speaker 3: was really good for helping me remember that this is
Speaker 3: my process and I am an individual and whatever goal
Speaker 3: I set, whether it's high or lower in between, like,
Speaker 3: it's got to be catered to me. And what I
Speaker 3: want to get out of it, and what I want
Speaker 3: to get out of it isn't, you know, becoming a
Speaker 3: good skateboarder or you know, becoming a professional. This isn't
Speaker 3: the type of thing that I want to eventually monetize
Speaker 3: and make a hustle out of or make a career
Speaker 3: out of. This is something that I want to do
Speaker 3: just to remind me myself that I can learn new
Speaker 3: things and to have an experience that's going to be humbling,
Speaker 3: and to do something that reminds me what it's like
Speaker 3: to be a beginner. Because it also helps me teach
Speaker 3: other people. It's so hard to be able to train
Speaker 3: and instruct and teach other people when they're trying new
Speaker 3: things if it's been a really long time since you've
Speaker 3: learned a new thing and you've been on the educational
Speaker 3: receiving end yourself. So my goal was to learn how
Speaker 3: to ALI. It ended up working out really well, and
Speaker 3: I'm really glad I did it.
Speaker 2: That's so cool.
Speaker 1: Now I know something that you think a lot about
Speaker 1: is attention, and I want to know what have you
Speaker 1: done to stop apps and other things sort of hijacking
Speaker 1: your attention when you don't want them to.
Speaker 3: I go the nuclear route, which your mileage may vary.
Speaker 4: You may not want.
Speaker 3: To do this, depending on the type of person you
Speaker 3: are and how important notifications are to you. But when
Speaker 3: it comes to things that infringe on my attention, I
Speaker 3: turn them off. Whenever I download a new app, whenever
Speaker 3: I begin a new service, whenever I sign up for
Speaker 3: a new thing that has access to my inbox, I
Speaker 3: turn off all notifications, and then I actively turn on
Speaker 3: only the ones that I feel that I need because
Speaker 3: these apps and services everything wants your attention on their terms.
Speaker 3: That app that you download, that service that you use,
Speaker 3: is going to want to tell you, hey, this is
Speaker 3: when we want your attention.
Speaker 4: This is when we think you should pay attention to us.
Speaker 3: I feel that once I have a certain level of
Speaker 3: control over my life and my schedule and my calendar,
Speaker 3: then it should be up to me to decide when
Speaker 3: I want notifications for things, so I automatically turn them
Speaker 3: off by default, even for my phone, Samantha, like my
Speaker 3: phone automatically blocks numbers that I don't recognize, Like, I
Speaker 3: so hate unwanted interruptions that I try to block them
Speaker 3: at every chance.
Speaker 4: That I get.
Speaker 3: And I trust myself to be able to organize my
Speaker 3: calendar and organize my schedule in a way that works
Speaker 3: for me, and only choose those notifications that I really
Speaker 3: really need.
Speaker 1: You mentioned blocking phone numbers, and I know when my
Speaker 1: producer did a pre interview with you before what we're
Speaker 1: doing right now, we had to send our phone number
Speaker 1: ahead of time so that we wouldn't be blocked. Can
Speaker 1: you tell me about what you are doing with numbers
Speaker 1: on your phone?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So again, this is a nuclear option. This might
Speaker 3: not be advisable for everyone. I'll tell you sort of
Speaker 3: the good and the bad of it. The good of it, obviously,
Speaker 3: is that I do not get spam calls. I don't
Speaker 3: know if you have a similar problem.
Speaker 2: Oh, so many, so many.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's so many bot calls, and they're only projected
Speaker 3: to increase, Like the volume of bot calls has increased
Speaker 3: I don't know, a thousand times in the past, like
Speaker 3: a handful of years, and it's only going to get worse.
Speaker 3: So you're just going to get so many spam calls,
Speaker 3: so many that are just going to, you know, make
Speaker 3: you look at your phone and check who's calling and
Speaker 3: think for a moment that it might be somewhat important,
Speaker 3: or your mother calling you when it's really not right.
Speaker 3: It's just going to be a robot. It's going to
Speaker 3: be a recording. So the good part is that I
Speaker 3: don't have that problem. I do not get telemarketers. I
Speaker 3: do not get spam calls. I do not get calls from,
Speaker 3: you know, people who I didn't explicitly give my number.
Speaker 4: Two.
Speaker 3: That's the great part. The downside of it is, you know,
Speaker 3: if my dentist wants to call me and it's a
Speaker 3: new dentist to confirm my appointment, they're not going to
Speaker 3: be able to They're going to have to send me
Speaker 3: an email, or they're gonna have to send me a
Speaker 3: text message.
Speaker 4: I have to be really strategic.
Speaker 3: About either warning people, hey, let me save your phone
Speaker 3: numbers so that I have it. I have to like
Speaker 3: be on top of that myself, or knowing that they
Speaker 3: have an alternative means of connecting with me, whether that's
Speaker 3: email or whatever else.
Speaker 1: Now I want to ask about email as well, because
Speaker 1: I imagine you're getting even more unsolicited emails from people such
Speaker 1: as my I was, you know, quite chuffed that I
Speaker 1: got through, Jordan, how are you managing your email?
Speaker 2: So with regard to this problem.
Speaker 3: So I have my personal email and my professional email,
Speaker 3: and I treat them sort of differently. Well, in some ways,
Speaker 3: I treat them the same. I am an inbox zero
Speaker 3: person across all of my inboxes. So I try to
Speaker 3: empty out my inbox and archive things because I sort
Speaker 3: of use my email as a to do list or
Speaker 3: the only things that are in my inbox are things
Speaker 3: that are actionable, like things that actually need to be done.
Speaker 3: For my professional email, I am really really strict, and
Speaker 3: that's mostly because my professional email is public and that
Speaker 3: means that anyone can email me, and I get a
Speaker 3: lot of emails from every PR person and every publicist
Speaker 3: under the sun, advertising everything that you could possibly imagine,
Speaker 3: asking if I'm willing to cover it. So, if your
Speaker 3: email address is public out there, then you might want
Speaker 3: to follow again my very admittedly strict sort of guidelines,
Speaker 3: which is that everyone whether they're you know, a PR person, whoever,
Speaker 3: is reaching out.
Speaker 4: And I will again.
Speaker 3: Preface this by saying this is a little bit extreme,
Speaker 3: But I basically block every email that I get after
Speaker 3: they've emailed me once, like you sort of get a
Speaker 3: one shot policy. So if I get an email from
Speaker 3: someone about something that I'm not interested in, I you know,
Speaker 3: either I can respond and tell them I'm not interested
Speaker 3: if I feel that it deserves a personal response, but
Speaker 3: if it's just a mass pr email about something, then
Speaker 3: I block them and I move on and I'll never
Speaker 3: have to worry. And the reason I do that, imanth
Speaker 3: is because because they'll always follow up. They'll always follow
Speaker 3: up two or three or four times. And if you
Speaker 3: know that you're not going to respond affirmatively to this person,
Speaker 3: you might not want to respond it all because they're
Speaker 3: just you know, it's basically spam. Then why are you
Speaker 3: Why would I leave myself open to the follow up?
Speaker 3: Like I either need to respond to tell them I'm
Speaker 3: not interested or block them. And that's the decision that
Speaker 3: I make with every email that comes into my inbox,
Speaker 3: like do I want to give them another chance? I'll
Speaker 3: be honest, ninety nine percent of them. Because I get
Speaker 3: so much in my inbox, like ninety nine percent of it,
Speaker 3: I just automatically block and just continue living my life.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: You mentioned pictures and being inundated with them, and I
Speaker 1: can imagine given what you do, I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: sort of experience that.
Speaker 2: On a smallest scale, I'll probably.
Speaker 1: Get about, I don't know, somewhere between five to ten
Speaker 1: pitches for people wanting to be guests on how I
Speaker 1: work most days. What is your decision making process for
Speaker 1: making quick decisions about which pictures you're going to consider?
Speaker 4: Is it going to be fun?
Speaker 3: Like the feeling that I want to avoid is and
Speaker 3: we've all we've.
Speaker 4: All felt this before.
Speaker 3: Is when it comes time to do that thing, are
Speaker 3: you going to be like, ah, man, why did I
Speaker 3: do this? I like, I do not feel like having this.
Speaker 3: I do not feel like doing this thing if it's
Speaker 3: going to feel.
Speaker 4: Like a chore when the time comes.
Speaker 3: Like I try to put myself in the shoes of
Speaker 3: future me and say, like would I would I have
Speaker 3: when I have the with my energy level right now?
Speaker 3: Would I be looking forward to this or would I
Speaker 3: feel that it's a drag that I need to stop
Speaker 3: my day and do this thing? And if the answer
Speaker 3: is that I would enjoy doing that thing and it
Speaker 3: would probably be fun, then I try to go for it.
Speaker 2: I can kind of relate.
Speaker 1: My test is if, like when I'm deciding on which
Speaker 1: guest pictures to accept, and to be honest, most of
Speaker 1: the guests that I have with people that I reach
Speaker 1: out to personally, such as yourself. But but I think, oh,
Speaker 1: would I be really curious and looking forward to spending
Speaker 1: several hours researching this person, And generally that provides me
Speaker 1: with a very whether it's.
Speaker 3: A yes or a not right right, If you're having
Speaker 3: fun doing that, then you'll probably have fun talking to
Speaker 3: that person, and then readers or in my case it's readers,
Speaker 3: but in your case, listeners will also enjoy it, because
Speaker 3: I think it's very clear whether people are actually enjoying
Speaker 3: themselves or whether they're going through the motions. If I'm
Speaker 3: writing something, I assume that it's pretty clear to the
Speaker 3: reader which parts of it I'm actually having fun writing
Speaker 3: and which parts of it I'm just like, I am
Speaker 3: just trudging through it. I am just getting through it
Speaker 3: and going through the motions. I think it's so transparent
Speaker 3: in a way that we often don't realize. So I
Speaker 3: think of it as doing myself my future self a favor.
Speaker 3: What I picked the right types of things to be
Speaker 3: involved with, and also doing everyone else a favor, like
Speaker 3: no one wants to You wouldn't want to host someone
Speaker 3: who actually doesn't want to be there and they're just
Speaker 3: doing it because they're you know, publicists told them to.
Speaker 3: Or you wouldn't want to read something that, you know,
Speaker 3: the writer wasn't really passionate about it, but they wrote
Speaker 3: it because it was a trending topic and they felt
Speaker 3: that they had to write. So I feel like we're
Speaker 3: all doing ourselves and each other a favor when we
Speaker 3: go for the things that actually inspire us and that
Speaker 3: you know, make us happy.
Speaker 1: Now, I know think you've changed the way that you
Speaker 1: use your calendar. Can you tell me about what you
Speaker 1: used to do and why you changed.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was the type of person who used to schedule everything.
Speaker 3: I mean, every hour of my day was blocked off
Speaker 3: with something or other, even if it was like relaxation
Speaker 3: time like this. Everything was accounted for the time that
Speaker 3: I would spend walking my dog was accounted for every
Speaker 3: every waking hour had something. And that was my way
Speaker 3: of feeling in control. I wanted to feel in control,
Speaker 3: and I wanted to feel productive, and eventually, for a
Speaker 3: plethora of reason, a lot of that having to do
Speaker 3: with just mental health and being able to be flexible.
Speaker 4: I ended up.
Speaker 3: Pivoting towards Have you heard of a decision matrix?
Speaker 2: This is a new thing for me absolutely to explain
Speaker 2: what that is.
Speaker 3: Okay, So a decision matrix is it's sort of hard
Speaker 3: to describe virtually verbally, but I will do my best.
Speaker 3: So there's four quadrants in this decision matrix, and it
Speaker 3: splits everything up into whether it's high urgency and low effort,
Speaker 3: or high urgency and high effort, or low urgency and
Speaker 3: low effort or low urgency and high effort. And basically
Speaker 3: every task that you do can be put into one
Speaker 3: of these four categories. And the types of things that
Speaker 3: I used to put on my calendar would be all
Speaker 3: four of those things. Whether it was high urgency or
Speaker 3: low urgency, whether it was high effort or low effort,
Speaker 3: Everything that needed to be done would go on my calendar.
Speaker 4: And that was not sustainable and not ideal.
Speaker 3: And my ex is my ex partially because she probably
Speaker 3: hated it. But if I fast forward a little bit
Speaker 3: and look at how I look at my calendar now,
Speaker 3: it's going to be those things that are specifically high
Speaker 3: urgency and high effort or low urgency and high effort.
Speaker 3: There are going to be things that require me to
Speaker 3: plan or to block out time to do as opposed
Speaker 3: to those things that you can do right away because
Speaker 3: it's you know, low effort and high urgency. So for example,
Speaker 3: if I go to the gym and I'm really really sweaty,
Speaker 3: it's low effort to take a shower, and it's high
Speaker 3: urgency to take a shower, So that's something that I
Speaker 3: should just do right now, right like, I should just
Speaker 3: get that out of the way because it's low effort
Speaker 3: and high urgency. Or if it's something that's low urgency
Speaker 3: and low effort, then that's something that I.
Speaker 4: Could definitely put off till later. If it's you know, I.
Speaker 3: Need to go to the post office and drop off something,
Speaker 3: then I could I could defer that, I could you know,
Speaker 3: figure out when to do that later on on, but
Speaker 3: I don't need to put that on my calendar. But
Speaker 3: for those things that take planning, you know, if I
Speaker 3: need to block off time to plan for a presentation,
Speaker 3: right a presentation is going to be depending on when
Speaker 3: it's coming up, it's going to be high urgency. And
Speaker 3: it's definitely going to be high effort, so I need
Speaker 3: to block off time to do that, or if it's
Speaker 3: something like filing by taxes, that might be low urgency,
Speaker 3: depending on you know, how close tax day is, but
Speaker 3: it's definitely going to be high effort to have to
Speaker 3: sit down and look through all these financial records. Right,
Speaker 3: So that's something that needs to go on my calendar.
Speaker 3: But there's a difference now that I think I've got
Speaker 3: a healthier balance now between those things that belong on
Speaker 3: my calendar because they're either high effort or high urgency
Speaker 3: or both, or those things that you know, just give
Speaker 3: me a false sense of productivity and a high degree
Speaker 3: of rigidity that probably is is more detrimental to my
Speaker 3: productivity and my mental health than useful.
Speaker 1: Now I'm curious about goal setting and accountability because I've
Speaker 1: heard that you use accountability to make sure that you
Speaker 1: do certain things.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think one of the most powerful forces personally
Speaker 3: that I have for making sure certain things get done
Speaker 3: is by weaponizing accountability. I know that it's very easy
Speaker 3: for me to let myself down and not really care
Speaker 3: if you think about, like, you know, whether you're trying
Speaker 3: to eat healthier or something like that, but you also
Speaker 3: want to eat a candy bar and no one else knows,
Speaker 3: and you're just like, Okay, that's fine, I'll have this
Speaker 3: one and then I'll start again eating healthy the next
Speaker 3: week or whatever. Or if you tell yourself that you're
Speaker 3: going to, you know, go for a run for three
Speaker 3: days this week, and you do two days and you're
Speaker 3: like that third day, I'll just add an extra run
Speaker 3: next week, right, like you can. It's very easy for me,
Speaker 3: and I imagine most people to rationalize their way out
Speaker 3: of whatever we want to rationalize ourselves into or out of.
Speaker 3: But if I tell my plans to someone who I
Speaker 3: don't want to disappoint, that thing is going to get done,
Speaker 3: mostly because I hate disappointing people like I don't like.
Speaker 4: Especially if it's if it's someone.
Speaker 3: Who I know is going to hold me to that thing,
Speaker 3: then yeah, then it'll work.
Speaker 4: It's it's probably. I would say.
Speaker 3: It's the second most powerful way for me to make
Speaker 3: sure that I get something done.
Speaker 4: The other one is a rougher option.
Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of the website? I heard of
Speaker 3: it back in college. I wonder if it still exists,
Speaker 3: it's called stick STI KK.
Speaker 4: If I remember correctly, Ah, that rings a bell.
Speaker 3: It's it's really old. It's been around for a long time.
Speaker 3: I learned about it in undergrad and college at university
Speaker 3: when I was studying psychology and I was studying behavioral psychology.
Speaker 4: And one of the things that I learned.
Speaker 3: About was the reinforcement strategies. And the short of this website,
Speaker 3: the summary of it is that you have an accountability
Speaker 3: partner and have you set a goal. So let's say
Speaker 3: that that goal is to go to the gym three
Speaker 3: days a week. You set your goal, you tell your
Speaker 3: accountability partner that goal, and then the way that I
Speaker 3: did it, and there's I think there's a few different
Speaker 3: ways to do it on this website, but there's one
Speaker 3: very clever, very very powerful way of doing it is
Speaker 3: you choose an anti charity. So an anti charity is
Speaker 3: something for which an organization that has a cause that
Speaker 3: you strongly disagree with, like that you are the opposite
Speaker 3: of right. So in my case, my anti charity was
Speaker 3: the NRA in the United States, the National Rifle Association,
Speaker 3: this organization that, like you know, pushes for the advocacy
Speaker 3: of everyone having guns I politically am not there. Or
Speaker 3: then my best friend, she's a lesbian and there was
Speaker 3: an anti marriage equality law and her anti charity was
Speaker 3: an organization that was against LGBTQ people.
Speaker 4: You set this anti.
Speaker 3: Charity and then it'll automatically deduct five dollars from my
Speaker 3: account if ever my accountability buddy pulls the trigger and
Speaker 3: says that or presses the button and says that I
Speaker 3: didn't do what I said that I was going to do.
Speaker 3: So that's right, That's that's the nuclear option if I want,
Speaker 3: like I never missed the commitment whenever I wanted to
Speaker 3: be that serious and use use the anti charity, because
Speaker 3: you know, if you're choosing the right anti charity, it's
Speaker 3: going to be something that like morally would like it
Speaker 3: would it would hurt your soul.
Speaker 4: To not do this thing. So when I was doing the.
Speaker 3: Anti charity, I remember one night it was close to
Speaker 3: midnight and I went to the gym because I was
Speaker 3: not going to pay five dollars to this organization that
Speaker 3: I didn't like.
Speaker 2: That's so good.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of Jordan soon and talking
Speaker 1: about out of all the things that he's learned from
Speaker 1: editing life hacker what has impacted his behavior the most.
Speaker 1: If you're after even more things to improve the way
Speaker 1: you work, you might want to check out my very
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Speaker 2: Now, something I imagine that we've got in common is
Speaker 2: that in terms.
Speaker 1: Of your like the things that you're learning and consuming,
Speaker 1: Like you're learning a lot of great advice through your
Speaker 1: role at life Hacker and through the podcast that you host,
Speaker 1: the Upgrade, Like so many tools and tips and strategies
Speaker 1: that you'd be hearing, I imagine every week. I'm curious
Speaker 1: as to which ones have really stuck with you and
Speaker 1: that you've implemented.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a few of them that come to mind.
Speaker 3: The first one that comes to mind there was an
Speaker 3: episode that we did with a writer named Daniel Pink,
Speaker 3: and he had written a book. I'm drawing a blank
Speaker 3: on the book title.
Speaker 2: One of his race and ones might be when When Yes?
Speaker 4: When? When Yes? When? By Daniel Pink.
Speaker 3: It was about understanding your chronotype, like understanding whether you're
Speaker 3: actually a morning person or an evening person or something
Speaker 3: in between, and then deciding from there having a better
Speaker 3: understanding of what type of work you should do at
Speaker 3: what time and what time periods you should sort of
Speaker 3: avoid doing things that are mentally taxing. For most of us,
Speaker 3: that's going to be that after life un hour, like
Speaker 3: that lull that we feel between like noon and three
Speaker 3: o'clock when everyone's sort of groggy and not on their best.
Speaker 3: For me, it meant understanding that I am a morning
Speaker 3: person when it comes to productivity, Amantha. I probably get
Speaker 3: more done between probably between six am and ten am
Speaker 3: than I do the rest of the day combined. Like,
Speaker 3: I am very much a morning person when it comes
Speaker 3: to productivity, but I'm not very creative in the morning.
Speaker 4: I can get things done.
Speaker 3: I have a lot of willpower and a lot of
Speaker 3: organizational skills at that early hour, but if I am
Speaker 3: doing some creative writing, then that's going to be something
Speaker 3: that I'm going to do closer to the evening. And
Speaker 3: just understanding that about myself and understanding that that's sort
Speaker 3: of a biological thing that really helps me make decisions
Speaker 3: on when to do certain tasks as opposed to the
Speaker 3: normal thing that I think about, which is what to
Speaker 3: do and what to put off and that type of thing.
Speaker 3: Understanding chronotypes really really helped a lot. So thank you,
Speaker 3: Daniel Pink if you're listening today, There's one more thing
Speaker 3: that I would add, and that is having an understanding
Speaker 3: of habits and prompts. Just came from Charles Douhig, who's
Speaker 3: written a number of books on productivity. I wanted to
Speaker 3: read more. For example, There's very simple things that you
Speaker 3: could do to get into the habit of reading. One
Speaker 3: of those things is putting the book in a place
Speaker 3: that I am going to see and that I'm going
Speaker 3: to attach it to another task. So like there's already
Speaker 3: a habit ingrained in me to brush my teeth before
Speaker 3: I go to bed. If I can attach my reading
Speaker 3: habit to brushing my teeth before I go to bed,
Speaker 3: then it's a lot easier for that habit to be
Speaker 3: adopted into my life. So now, you know, try to
Speaker 3: get into this routine of brushing my teeth, going to
Speaker 3: this book that's going to be right on top of
Speaker 3: you know, right on top of my couch when I
Speaker 3: go back to the living room, and then I can
Speaker 3: sit for a little while and read book.
Speaker 4: Where I go.
Speaker 3: So just trying to understand how to pair habits, pair
Speaker 3: new aspirational habits with existing habits. That has gone a
Speaker 3: long way and sort of changing my thinking on how
Speaker 3: I can get things done in a more, you know,
Speaker 3: just sort of a natural way. I don't think of
Speaker 3: brushing my teeth as a chore, so once I attach
Speaker 3: something else to that task, I hopefully won't think of
Speaker 3: that thing as a chore either. It's just a thing
Speaker 3: that you do.
Speaker 1: Now, I know that child Wilson gave you advice on
Speaker 1: how to give advice, Is that right?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah? Absolutely?
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, tell me about that.
Speaker 3: This changed a lot of my thinking on coaching and
Speaker 3: collaborating with other people and how I myself learn and
Speaker 3: how I can change things about myself that I might
Speaker 3: want to change. And that comes down to the power
Speaker 3: of stories. One of the things that science has shown
Speaker 3: us is that people naturally understand and advice through narrative
Speaker 3: form in a way that is far more resonant, in
Speaker 3: a way that we all can understand better than if
Speaker 3: someone just gives us the information. So if I tell you,
Speaker 3: you know, you shouldn't smoke cigarettes because it causes cancer, Okay,
Speaker 3: that's information. But if I were to tell you a
Speaker 3: personal story about how someone who I cared about smoked
Speaker 3: and what their life with their relationship to cigarettes was
Speaker 3: and how it affected them, I don't even necessarily have
Speaker 3: to give advice. It's just you experiencing that story or
Speaker 3: seeing that story. That's something that your brain can retain
Speaker 3: a whole lot better. And it's also why books are
Speaker 3: so important and movies are so important, and the media
Speaker 3: that we consume is so important. It's because our brain
Speaker 3: latches onto stories a whole lot more than straightforward logical information.
Speaker 1: Now, something that I do in my life once a
Speaker 1: fortnite is that I see my therapist or psychologist. And
Speaker 1: I know that you've also got a regular appointment with
Speaker 1: a therapist.
Speaker 2: Sorry, tell me how, like what role that plays in
Speaker 2: your life?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had mentioned accountability before. I think she is
Speaker 3: one of this not the biggest accountability structures in my life.
Speaker 3: If I tell her I'm going to do something, then
Speaker 3: ninety nine times out of one hundred, I will be
Speaker 3: able to follow through and do that thing because she
Speaker 3: because of the relationship that we have, like she is
Speaker 3: going to be someone who I trust and she knows
Speaker 3: the things that I want to accomplish and the challenges
Speaker 3: and the opportunities and the struggles and the joys that
Speaker 3: I have. And being able to have someone like that
Speaker 3: and sharing your goals with like she's a very good
Speaker 3: accountability buddy. I would recommend anyone who's interested in having
Speaker 3: a therapist definitely take that leap in getting one. I
Speaker 3: was one of those people that was apprehensive, to say
Speaker 3: the least. I went very grudgingly into therapy years ago.
Speaker 3: Like I was of the mindset that, you know, this
Speaker 3: is obviously silly in craft, but it was just like, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, crazy people go to therapy like you have
Speaker 3: to be, you know, I have some type of significant
Speaker 3: difficulties or have something terrible happen to you to be
Speaker 3: benefited by therapy.
Speaker 4: And that's absolutely not true. You can feel pretty.
Speaker 3: On top of your life and still be greatly benefited
Speaker 3: by talking through your feelings. And I look at a
Speaker 3: therapist now the same way that I would any other
Speaker 3: type of hygiene, whether it's going to the gym or
Speaker 3: brushing my teeth. Like your heart and mind and emotions
Speaker 3: need regular maintenance too, and I think that it's easily
Speaker 3: something to overlook if you don't have a regular time
Speaker 3: set aside to do that. And for some people, it
Speaker 3: could be meditation, for some people, it could be therapy
Speaker 3: for some people, could be something else for some people
Speaker 3: could be a combination of those things. But having a
Speaker 3: set aside time for your mental health and focusing on
Speaker 3: understanding yourself and your happiness that I think is the
Speaker 3: other side of productivity. I think there's so often that
Speaker 3: we can focus on productivity and getting things done and
Speaker 3: having the sense this is at least I should speak
Speaker 3: for myself here. I had the sense that I was
Speaker 3: what I could do, I was what I could produce,
Speaker 3: I was my accomplishments. And it took some shifting on
Speaker 3: my part in my thinking to understand that I am
Speaker 3: not my accomplishment and I'm not what I do, and
Speaker 3: that I can still have the level of success and
Speaker 3: accomplishment when I'm approaching these things from a place of
Speaker 3: love and enjoyment and not just trying to do something.
Speaker 3: I guess to bring this conversation full circle, that's sort
Speaker 3: of what it's like with skateboarding. Skateboarding isn't something that
Speaker 3: I am really going to be accomplished at, but it
Speaker 3: is something that I can approach with curiosity and do
Speaker 3: it just for the enjoyment and the fun of it
Speaker 3: and having those type of escapes, having those types of
Speaker 3: hobbies that aren't monetized and aren't very serious to you,
Speaker 3: but that are just fun or relaxing or cathartic or
Speaker 3: just enjoyable. Those are the things that give me the
Speaker 3: energy to go back to the things where I do
Speaker 3: need to be focused and be productive and be able
Speaker 3: to have a balance between those two things. It's only
Speaker 3: helped my productivity.
Speaker 1: I can totally relate something that I became aware of.
Speaker 1: So my appointment with my therapist is in the middle
Speaker 1: of the day on a Wednesday, and what I realized
Speaker 1: is that I wasn't actually leaving any room after the
Speaker 1: appointment ended, before my assistant would just schedule a meeting
Speaker 1: in my diary. And like literally this just occurred to
Speaker 1: me two or three weeks ago, And I now like
Speaker 1: a blocking out, just half an hour of buffer time
Speaker 1: to decompress and possibly journal, which I feel would be
Speaker 1: useful to do straight after therapy when you just have
Speaker 1: no idea what emotional state you'll be in at the
Speaker 1: end of that hour or fifty minutes. I'm curious, do
Speaker 1: you have any rituals or routines around what you do
Speaker 1: after your therapy session or what you do sort of
Speaker 1: in between the weekly sessions.
Speaker 3: Mine is similar to you, but slightly different. So my therapist.
Speaker 3: My appointment with my therapist is also on a Wednesday,
Speaker 3: but it's Wednesday at the end of the day, so
Speaker 3: that there is no meetings afterwards. But it is right,
Speaker 3: and it's like my mental oasis right in the middle
Speaker 3: of the week and where you journal after your appointment.
Speaker 3: I try to journal throughout the week leading up to
Speaker 3: the appointment so that I know what it is that
Speaker 3: I want to talk about.
Speaker 4: And that's mostly.
Speaker 3: Because I sort of this applies to almost anything in
Speaker 3: my brain. I can think of something, something I want
Speaker 3: to write, something I want to do, something that I
Speaker 3: want to remember, and I'll tell myself i'll remember it
Speaker 3: when the time comes. I'll just completely lie to myself
Speaker 3: and think that I can recall it when it needs
Speaker 3: to be recalled, And of course that never works, right,
Speaker 3: So that's why we should keep these lists. That's why
Speaker 3: we have these note taking apps. And I got in
Speaker 3: the habit relatively recently, i'd say, a few months ago,
Speaker 3: of keeping a really small notebook and when certain things
Speaker 3: go on during the week, or if I notice myself
Speaker 3: feeling particularly good or particularly bad, or something that's notable,
Speaker 3: scribbling that down so that when Wednesday rolls around, I
Speaker 3: can decide whether that's worth diving into. Did I feel
Speaker 3: better since that thing happened or since I felt that way?
Speaker 3: Or do I feel worse? Is this something that's lingering
Speaker 3: is it not? And that informs the types of things
Speaker 3: that I discuss with my therapist, and it makes those sessions.
Speaker 3: I mean, it feels weird saying this because productivity isn't
Speaker 3: the goal, but it makes those sessions a lot more productive,
Speaker 3: right because I know what it is that I want
Speaker 3: to talk about, and we're not spending time with me
Speaker 3: wondering like what are we going to talk about this week?
Speaker 3: What's going on? You know, there's not that sort of
Speaker 3: pulling teeth in the beginning. It's like, oh, this happened,
Speaker 3: and these other things happened, and I get to sort
Speaker 3: of triage my hour that way.
Speaker 2: I really like that strategy.
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to try adopting That's like, it's
Speaker 1: Wednesday now here in Velvet and I'm seeing my therapist
Speaker 1: in a few hours, so I can't adopt it this week,
Speaker 1: but I think I'm going to adopt it for the
Speaker 1: next whatnot, Now, you're a prolific radar. What's your approach
Speaker 1: to rating non fiction? And I guess like learning as
Speaker 1: much as you can remembering what you've learned.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Thankfully having a podcast that's based on productivity and
Speaker 3: having conversations with dozens of authors every year sort of
Speaker 3: takes care of that for me, Like I always have
Speaker 3: a new book to read that is nonfiction that's about
Speaker 3: improving some part of my life, so that that is
Speaker 3: that's sort of carved out for me by way of
Speaker 3: this podcast, and I've been trying to just given since
Speaker 3: that exists in my professional life, I've been trying to
Speaker 3: continue to lean into stories to learn what I can
Speaker 3: from fiction as sort of a going back to what
Speaker 3: I learned from Charles Duig about how we learn certain things,
Speaker 3: how we learn most things a better way through narrative.
Speaker 3: I've been trying to lean into fiction more and to
Speaker 3: find the lessons and the stories from there and try
Speaker 3: to have a balance between between fiction and nonfiction. I
Speaker 3: find that when I do lean too much towards fiction,
Speaker 3: I or I'm sorry towards When I do lean too
Speaker 3: much towards nonfiction, then it becomes sort of a robotic
Speaker 3: process and I don't retain as much as I need to.
Speaker 3: I think we've all had that experience reading a nonfiction book,
Speaker 3: because they can tend to be drier, where you know,
Speaker 3: you read several pages, so you could read several paragraphs
Speaker 3: and you're like, I don't even remember what I just read.
Speaker 3: And I find that the best way to retain the
Speaker 3: more serious, you know, more serious, rigid nonfiction work is
Speaker 3: to balance that out so that it's it's complemented by
Speaker 3: fiction as well.
Speaker 1: Now, given how many nonfiction books you've read, what A two,
Speaker 1: a three that have had the biggest impact on your life?
Speaker 3: So there's Atomic Habits. Have you read that one?
Speaker 2: I sure I have?
Speaker 1: Yes by James Clear Yes. Did you like Tiny Habits
Speaker 1: by BJ Fog?
Speaker 3: I did not read Tiny Habits?
Speaker 4: Tell me about it?
Speaker 2: That is a really good one. I guess.
Speaker 1: It is sort of somewhat self explanatory, and it's about
Speaker 1: the idea of making permanent behavior change is to break
Speaker 1: habits down into really tiny components, like things that you
Speaker 1: can do in thirty seconds or less. And so that's
Speaker 1: sort of the premise of the book, and then how
Speaker 1: we can make those tiny habits stick through similar to
Speaker 1: what you were saying earlier in this chat around linking
Speaker 1: new habits that we're trying to form onto existing ones
Speaker 1: and also then associating them with positive emotion.
Speaker 2: So it's a good one to read. I really liked it.
Speaker 3: I will look into that. I will definitely look into that.
Speaker 3: Another one that I read not too long ago was
Speaker 3: Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker.
Speaker 2: Love that book.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one that sort of can change your life.
Speaker 3: I mean there's especially in productivity and hustle culture, where
Speaker 3: there's so much of a warped sense of pride in
Speaker 3: working hard and neglecting your sleep, sort of as a
Speaker 3: sense of pride, like oh, like, you know, we all
Speaker 3: say we're so busy, and you know, I only got
Speaker 3: four hours of sleep last night because I had to
Speaker 3: wake up and do this other busy thing because we're all,
Speaker 3: you know, such busy, important people, right, And it's like
Speaker 3: you think that that's harder work. Like you think that
Speaker 3: that's hard work, and you think that sleep deprivation, at
Speaker 3: least in certain circles can be worn as a badge
Speaker 3: of pride, something that shows just how tenacious you are.
Speaker 3: But really it's just sabotaging you, Like there is there
Speaker 3: is no at least now the way that I've sort
Speaker 3: of shifted my thinking, there is no sense of pride
Speaker 3: or reward and exhausting myself and being so fatigued, so
Speaker 3: sleep deprived and so tired that I'm like not functioning optimally.
Speaker 3: Part of being a productive, well rounded, well adjusted person
Speaker 3: is sleeping a pretty optimal amount and shedding some of
Speaker 3: those preconceived ideas about sleep being tied to laziness or
Speaker 3: naps being tied to laziness. That's another thing, going back
Speaker 3: to Daniel Pink's book, When is the sort of idea
Speaker 3: that many of us had, or many of us were
Speaker 3: taught about naps being this thing for the lazy this,
Speaker 3: or naps being this thing that you do because you,
Speaker 3: you know, because you're not this tenacious, go getting person.
Speaker 3: And it's quite the opposite. You can sleep when you're tired.
Speaker 3: That's not a character flaw. That's something that your body
Speaker 3: needs and it's something that will ultimately probably make you
Speaker 3: more productive. So that's another example. There was a much
Speaker 3: of time where I was really into positive psychology, So
Speaker 3: there are a few books that I read around the topic.
Speaker 3: Then I'm trying to think of I think it was
Speaker 3: the happiness Curve. There's a book called The Happiness Curve,
Speaker 3: and it was basically a compilation of a lot of
Speaker 3: research about what we know about being happy and what
Speaker 3: actually makes people happy is quite different than what most
Speaker 3: of us think makes us happy, Like we're really bad.
Speaker 3: One of the main takeaways from the book is that
Speaker 3: we are very bad at predicting what makes us happy,
Speaker 3: like what actually makes us happy? I you know, in
Speaker 3: my head, my sort of knee jerk thought to what
Speaker 3: would make me happy would be having accomplished a lot
Speaker 3: of things. But that's not what's actually going to make
Speaker 3: me happy. That's not what's going to fulfill me as
Speaker 3: much as strong relationships and other things.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So that was another great book that sort of balanced
Speaker 3: out the productivity mindset with the why am I trying
Speaker 3: to be so productive anyway? And maybe I should also
Speaker 3: focus on my mental health and happiness aspect.
Speaker 1: Welso, I will link to all those in the show notes. Now, Jordan,
Speaker 1: for people that want to connect with you, read what
Speaker 1: you're writing, listen to your podcast.
Speaker 2: What is the best way for people to do that?
Speaker 4: Absolutely?
Speaker 3: So my podcast is called The Upgrade by Life Packer,
Speaker 3: so you can search that in anyone of your podcasting
Speaker 3: apps and you'll find the upgrade. I also recently have
Speaker 3: a newsletter a column that I launched with The Atlantic,
Speaker 3: So if you're an Atlantic subscriber, it's actually free for
Speaker 3: this month, but then you have to be an Atlantic subscriber,
Speaker 3: and it's called Humans Being.
Speaker 4: Humans Being basically.
Speaker 3: Looks at pop culture and tries to find the lessons
Speaker 3: in it. Similar to what we were talking about earlier
Speaker 3: in our conversation, where we can find a lot of
Speaker 3: lessons in the serious nonfiction stuff that we read, there's
Speaker 3: also a lot of lessons that can be found in
Speaker 3: the fiction that we consume as well, and my column
Speaker 3: Humans Being basically tries to explore that and tries to
Speaker 3: find the lessons in fiction so that we can decide,
Speaker 3: you know, how, how can we learn from the stories
Speaker 3: that we're consuming every day.
Speaker 4: And you can.
Speaker 3: Find everything else on my website Jordan MS and Michael
Speaker 3: jordanimcalhoun dot com and I'm on Twitter and Instagram at
Speaker 3: Jordan M Calhoun, so you can always find me on Twitter.
Speaker 3: That is probably where I would like interact with people
Speaker 3: the most, because you know, you're probably not going to
Speaker 3: get through to.
Speaker 4: My inbox exactly.
Speaker 2: I'm certainly not getting through to you. Fine, definitely, this
Speaker 2: has just made such.
Speaker 1: A joy, Like where has the hour gone? I have
Speaker 1: no idea. I just loved chatting to you. I wish
Speaker 1: we had like another five hours, but I need to
Speaker 1: let you get on with your evening in New York.
Speaker 2: So thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I feel like I got so many practical tips from Jordan.
Speaker 1: There are so many things that I want to try out,
Speaker 1: and the very first thing I'm going to do is
Speaker 1: I'm going to work out how to block random numbers
Speaker 1: on my phone, so tell you what. I am sick
Speaker 1: of getting calls from all sorts of people that I
Speaker 1: don't know who are trying to sell me things. So
Speaker 1: that is something I'm definitely going to do.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: If you have not hit subscribe or follow wherever you're
Speaker 1: listening to this podcast from, you might want to do
Speaker 1: that because next week I'm very excited to share my
Speaker 1: chat with Katie Milkman, who is an expert on the
Speaker 1: science of change, and we'll be talking about how she
Speaker 1: has created big and small changes in her own life.
Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventing with production support
Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producers for this episode were
Speaker 1: Liam Ridan and Jenna Cooder. And thank you to Martin
Speaker 1: Nimba who did the audio.
Speaker 2: Mix and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.
Speaker 2: See you next time.