1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: You can't just pick up the phone and call Jordan Calhoun, 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: the editor in chief of Life Packer. Trust me, I tried. 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Jordan takes his time and attention seriously and protects them accordingly. 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: His phone is set up so that you can only 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: call him if he knows that it's coming. Thankfully, he 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: knew I was calling him so he could appear on 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: How I Work, and he did pick up and I. 8 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 2: Came out of that call with a lot of new ideas. 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: As well as being the editor in chief of Life Packer, 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: one of my go to sources for inspiration on the web, 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: He's also the podcast host of The Upgrade, which is 12 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: kind of like How I Work, but for life. 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: And I think it's better say. 14 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 1: That Jordan is as nerdy as meat when it comes 15 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: to productivity and thinking about how he spends his time. 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 2: So aside from. 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: Blocking calls, what other hacks has Jordan applied to minimizing 18 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: distractions and interruptions? And I wanted to know why did 19 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: jordans stop scheduling absolutely everything in his calendar like many 20 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: productivity nerds like to do, and how has Jordan managed 21 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: to weaponize accountability. My name is doctor Amantha Imba I'm 22 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 23 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: and this is how I work a show about how 24 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: to help you do your best work. When I was 25 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: doing my research for this interview, I learned that Jordan 26 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: had recently taken up skateboarding as an adult. 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 2: So I wanted to know why would an adult. 28 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: Decide to take up something that is normally reserved for kids. 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 3: It's so rare that as an adult we tried new 30 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 3: things usually because we're used to being competent, right like that, 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 3: you reach a certain age and a certain proficiency at 32 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: most of your skill sets where you don't want to 33 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 3: start new things because you'll feel like an idiot. And 34 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 3: I wanted to try to get over that. And I 35 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 3: wanted to do something that I always wanted to do 36 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 3: when I was a teenager, which is skateboarding. I had 37 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 3: tried to get on once when I was a teenager 38 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 3: and completely fell on my ribs and it hurt like hell, 39 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 3: and I never got on a skateboard again until now 40 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 3: when I'm in my mid thirties. So I decided to 41 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 3: do this sort of fitness challenge where skateboarding would be 42 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 3: my challenge. And I would see if I would learn 43 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 3: how to ali in a month, whether I could, you know, 44 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 3: quote unquote learn to skateboard. 45 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 4: In a month. 46 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 3: And my benchmark was the ALI, which is just being 47 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 3: able to pop your skateboard off of the ground. And 48 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 3: I was able to do that. It was a ton 49 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 3: of fun and I'm really glad I did. I would 50 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 3: ask you, like, what would you want to do? What 51 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 3: did you want to do when you were about fifteen 52 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: years old that you never got to do? 53 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: Such a good question, isn't it, Because I actually I 54 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: thought skateboarding was really cool, and as a girl when 55 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: I was younger, I thought that would make me really cool. 56 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: But my sense of balance just not the best. But 57 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: it's funny. I did recently teach myself how. 58 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: To knit, not that this was a lifelong dream when 59 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: I was a teenager, but I did learn that skill 60 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: in lockdown, and I know what you mean. It's interesting 61 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: learning a new skill. And podcasting has been the same 62 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: for me, so I've been doing it for over three 63 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: years now. But I just remember one of the joys 64 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: of starting how I work is You're absolutely right. It's 65 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,119 Speaker 1: so rare that we just start at the very very 66 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: beginning with something in life. 67 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it's gosh, it's good. 68 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: I'm curious because I think it's it can be a 69 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: bit daunting to know where do you start when you're 70 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: starting from scratch. So what was your process for learning 71 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: how to skateboard? 72 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 3: I started by asking a million questions to other people, 73 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 3: basically like, what would be a good benchmark goal if 74 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 3: I'm going to quote unquote learn how to skateboard? What's 75 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 3: a reasonable goal from a beginner for a beginner? And 76 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: you end up hearing a lot of answers sort of 77 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 3: pick and choose on which one makes sense for you. 78 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 3: I think one of the best responses I got when 79 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 3: I was asking more veteran skateboarders what I. 80 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 4: Should set as a goal. 81 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 3: When I got my skateboard at the skateboarding shop, I 82 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 3: asked that question and someone who the sales clerk who 83 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 3: was selling me the skateboards just stopped and looked at 84 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 3: me in my eyes and said, it depends how dedicated 85 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 3: are you. And that was It was such a you know, 86 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 3: a non committal answer. You didn't give me the type 87 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 3: of cut and dry answer that I wanted, but it 88 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 3: was really good for helping me remember that this is 89 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 3: my process and I am an individual and whatever goal 90 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 3: I set, whether it's high or lower in between, like, 91 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: it's got to be catered to me. And what I 92 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 3: want to get out of it, and what I want 93 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 3: to get out of it isn't, you know, becoming a 94 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 3: good skateboarder or you know, becoming a professional. This isn't 95 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 3: the type of thing that I want to eventually monetize 96 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 3: and make a hustle out of or make a career 97 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 3: out of. This is something that I want to do 98 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: just to remind me myself that I can learn new 99 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 3: things and to have an experience that's going to be humbling, 100 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 3: and to do something that reminds me what it's like 101 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 3: to be a beginner. Because it also helps me teach 102 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: other people. It's so hard to be able to train 103 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 3: and instruct and teach other people when they're trying new 104 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 3: things if it's been a really long time since you've 105 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 3: learned a new thing and you've been on the educational 106 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 3: receiving end yourself. So my goal was to learn how 107 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 3: to ALI. It ended up working out really well, and 108 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 3: I'm really glad I did it. 109 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: That's so cool. 110 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: Now I know something that you think a lot about 111 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: is attention, and I want to know what have you 112 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: done to stop apps and other things sort of hijacking 113 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: your attention when you don't want them to. 114 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 3: I go the nuclear route, which your mileage may vary. 115 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 4: You may not want. 116 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 3: To do this, depending on the type of person you 117 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 3: are and how important notifications are to you. But when 118 00:05:55,240 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 3: it comes to things that infringe on my attention, I 119 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: turn them off. Whenever I download a new app, whenever 120 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 3: I begin a new service, whenever I sign up for 121 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 3: a new thing that has access to my inbox, I 122 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 3: turn off all notifications, and then I actively turn on 123 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 3: only the ones that I feel that I need because 124 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 3: these apps and services everything wants your attention on their terms. 125 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 3: That app that you download, that service that you use, 126 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 3: is going to want to tell you, hey, this is 127 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 3: when we want your attention. 128 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 4: This is when we think you should pay attention to us. 129 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 3: I feel that once I have a certain level of 130 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 3: control over my life and my schedule and my calendar, 131 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 3: then it should be up to me to decide when 132 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 3: I want notifications for things, so I automatically turn them 133 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 3: off by default, even for my phone, Samantha, like my 134 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 3: phone automatically blocks numbers that I don't recognize, Like, I 135 00:06:54,640 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 3: so hate unwanted interruptions that I try to block them 136 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 3: at every chance. 137 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 4: That I get. 138 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 3: And I trust myself to be able to organize my 139 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 3: calendar and organize my schedule in a way that works 140 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 3: for me, and only choose those notifications that I really 141 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 3: really need. 142 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: You mentioned blocking phone numbers, and I know when my 143 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: producer did a pre interview with you before what we're 144 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: doing right now, we had to send our phone number 145 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: ahead of time so that we wouldn't be blocked. Can 146 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: you tell me about what you are doing with numbers 147 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: on your phone? 148 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, So again, this is a nuclear option. This might 149 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: not be advisable for everyone. I'll tell you sort of 150 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 3: the good and the bad of it. The good of it, obviously, 151 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 3: is that I do not get spam calls. I don't 152 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 3: know if you have a similar problem. 153 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: Oh, so many, so many. 154 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's so many bot calls, and they're only projected 155 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 3: to increase, Like the volume of bot calls has increased 156 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 3: I don't know, a thousand times in the past, like 157 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 3: a handful of years, and it's only going to get worse. 158 00:07:57,680 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 3: So you're just going to get so many spam calls, 159 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 3: so many that are just going to, you know, make 160 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 3: you look at your phone and check who's calling and 161 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 3: think for a moment that it might be somewhat important, 162 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 3: or your mother calling you when it's really not right. 163 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 3: It's just going to be a robot. It's going to 164 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 3: be a recording. So the good part is that I 165 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 3: don't have that problem. I do not get telemarketers. I 166 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 3: do not get spam calls. I do not get calls from, 167 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 3: you know, people who I didn't explicitly give my number. 168 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 4: Two. 169 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 3: That's the great part. The downside of it is, you know, 170 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 3: if my dentist wants to call me and it's a 171 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 3: new dentist to confirm my appointment, they're not going to 172 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 3: be able to They're going to have to send me 173 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 3: an email, or they're gonna have to send me a 174 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 3: text message. 175 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 4: I have to be really strategic. 176 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 3: About either warning people, hey, let me save your phone 177 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 3: numbers so that I have it. I have to like 178 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 3: be on top of that myself, or knowing that they 179 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 3: have an alternative means of connecting with me, whether that's 180 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 3: email or whatever else. 181 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: Now I want to ask about email as well, because 182 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: I imagine you're getting even more unsolicited emails from people such 183 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: as my I was, you know, quite chuffed that I 184 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: got through, Jordan, how are you managing your email? 185 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 2: So with regard to this problem. 186 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 3: So I have my personal email and my professional email, 187 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 3: and I treat them sort of differently. Well, in some ways, 188 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 3: I treat them the same. I am an inbox zero 189 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 3: person across all of my inboxes. So I try to 190 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 3: empty out my inbox and archive things because I sort 191 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 3: of use my email as a to do list or 192 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: the only things that are in my inbox are things 193 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 3: that are actionable, like things that actually need to be done. 194 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 3: For my professional email, I am really really strict, and 195 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 3: that's mostly because my professional email is public and that 196 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: means that anyone can email me, and I get a 197 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 3: lot of emails from every PR person and every publicist 198 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 3: under the sun, advertising everything that you could possibly imagine, 199 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 3: asking if I'm willing to cover it. So, if your 200 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 3: email address is public out there, then you might want 201 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 3: to follow again my very admittedly strict sort of guidelines, 202 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 3: which is that everyone whether they're you know, a PR person, whoever, 203 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 3: is reaching out. 204 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 4: And I will again. 205 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 3: Preface this by saying this is a little bit extreme, 206 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 3: But I basically block every email that I get after 207 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 3: they've emailed me once, like you sort of get a 208 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 3: one shot policy. So if I get an email from 209 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 3: someone about something that I'm not interested in, I you know, 210 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 3: either I can respond and tell them I'm not interested 211 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 3: if I feel that it deserves a personal response, but 212 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 3: if it's just a mass pr email about something, then 213 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 3: I block them and I move on and I'll never 214 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 3: have to worry. And the reason I do that, imanth 215 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 3: is because because they'll always follow up. They'll always follow 216 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 3: up two or three or four times. And if you 217 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 3: know that you're not going to respond affirmatively to this person, 218 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 3: you might not want to respond it all because they're 219 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 3: just you know, it's basically spam. Then why are you 220 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 3: Why would I leave myself open to the follow up? 221 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 3: Like I either need to respond to tell them I'm 222 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 3: not interested or block them. And that's the decision that 223 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 3: I make with every email that comes into my inbox, 224 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 3: like do I want to give them another chance? I'll 225 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 3: be honest, ninety nine percent of them. Because I get 226 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 3: so much in my inbox, like ninety nine percent of it, 227 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 3: I just automatically block and just continue living my life. 228 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 4: Now. 229 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: You mentioned pictures and being inundated with them, and I 230 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 1: can imagine given what you do, I feel like I'm 231 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 1: sort of experience that. 232 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 2: On a smallest scale, I'll probably. 233 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: Get about, I don't know, somewhere between five to ten 234 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: pitches for people wanting to be guests on how I 235 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: work most days. What is your decision making process for 236 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 1: making quick decisions about which pictures you're going to consider? 237 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 4: Is it going to be fun? 238 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 3: Like the feeling that I want to avoid is and 239 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 3: we've all we've. 240 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 4: All felt this before. 241 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 3: Is when it comes time to do that thing, are 242 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 3: you going to be like, ah, man, why did I 243 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 3: do this? I like, I do not feel like having this. 244 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 3: I do not feel like doing this thing if it's 245 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 3: going to feel. 246 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 4: Like a chore when the time comes. 247 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 3: Like I try to put myself in the shoes of 248 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 3: future me and say, like would I would I have 249 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 3: when I have the with my energy level right now? 250 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 3: Would I be looking forward to this or would I 251 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 3: feel that it's a drag that I need to stop 252 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 3: my day and do this thing? And if the answer 253 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 3: is that I would enjoy doing that thing and it 254 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 3: would probably be fun, then I try to go for it. 255 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 2: I can kind of relate. 256 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: My test is if, like when I'm deciding on which 257 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: guest pictures to accept, and to be honest, most of 258 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: the guests that I have with people that I reach 259 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: out to personally, such as yourself. But but I think, oh, 260 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: would I be really curious and looking forward to spending 261 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: several hours researching this person, And generally that provides me 262 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: with a very whether it's. 263 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 3: A yes or a not right right, If you're having 264 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: fun doing that, then you'll probably have fun talking to 265 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 3: that person, and then readers or in my case it's readers, 266 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 3: but in your case, listeners will also enjoy it, because 267 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 3: I think it's very clear whether people are actually enjoying 268 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 3: themselves or whether they're going through the motions. If I'm 269 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 3: writing something, I assume that it's pretty clear to the 270 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 3: reader which parts of it I'm actually having fun writing 271 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 3: and which parts of it I'm just like, I am 272 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 3: just trudging through it. I am just getting through it 273 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 3: and going through the motions. I think it's so transparent 274 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 3: in a way that we often don't realize. So I 275 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 3: think of it as doing myself my future self a favor. 276 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 3: What I picked the right types of things to be 277 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 3: involved with, and also doing everyone else a favor, like 278 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 3: no one wants to You wouldn't want to host someone 279 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: who actually doesn't want to be there and they're just 280 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 3: doing it because they're you know, publicists told them to. 281 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 3: Or you wouldn't want to read something that, you know, 282 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 3: the writer wasn't really passionate about it, but they wrote 283 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 3: it because it was a trending topic and they felt 284 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 3: that they had to write. So I feel like we're 285 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 3: all doing ourselves and each other a favor when we 286 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 3: go for the things that actually inspire us and that 287 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 3: you know, make us happy. 288 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: Now, I know think you've changed the way that you 289 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: use your calendar. Can you tell me about what you 290 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: used to do and why you changed. 291 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. 292 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 3: I was the type of person who used to schedule everything. 293 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: I mean, every hour of my day was blocked off 294 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 3: with something or other, even if it was like relaxation 295 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 3: time like this. Everything was accounted for the time that 296 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 3: I would spend walking my dog was accounted for every 297 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 3: every waking hour had something. And that was my way 298 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: of feeling in control. I wanted to feel in control, 299 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 3: and I wanted to feel productive, and eventually, for a 300 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 3: plethora of reason, a lot of that having to do 301 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 3: with just mental health and being able to be flexible. 302 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 4: I ended up. 303 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 3: Pivoting towards Have you heard of a decision matrix? 304 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 2: This is a new thing for me absolutely to explain 305 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: what that is. 306 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 3: Okay, So a decision matrix is it's sort of hard 307 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 3: to describe virtually verbally, but I will do my best. 308 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 3: So there's four quadrants in this decision matrix, and it 309 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 3: splits everything up into whether it's high urgency and low effort, 310 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 3: or high urgency and high effort, or low urgency and 311 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 3: low effort or low urgency and high effort. And basically 312 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 3: every task that you do can be put into one 313 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 3: of these four categories. And the types of things that 314 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 3: I used to put on my calendar would be all 315 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 3: four of those things. Whether it was high urgency or 316 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 3: low urgency, whether it was high effort or low effort, 317 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 3: Everything that needed to be done would go on my calendar. 318 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 4: And that was not sustainable and not ideal. 319 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: And my ex is my ex partially because she probably 320 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: hated it. But if I fast forward a little bit 321 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 3: and look at how I look at my calendar now, 322 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 3: it's going to be those things that are specifically high 323 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 3: urgency and high effort or low urgency and high effort. 324 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 3: There are going to be things that require me to 325 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 3: plan or to block out time to do as opposed 326 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 3: to those things that you can do right away because 327 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 3: it's you know, low effort and high urgency. So for example, 328 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 3: if I go to the gym and I'm really really sweaty, 329 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 3: it's low effort to take a shower, and it's high 330 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: urgency to take a shower, So that's something that I 331 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 3: should just do right now, right like, I should just 332 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 3: get that out of the way because it's low effort 333 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 3: and high urgency. Or if it's something that's low urgency 334 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 3: and low effort, then that's something that I. 335 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 4: Could definitely put off till later. If it's you know, I. 336 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 3: Need to go to the post office and drop off something, 337 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 3: then I could I could defer that, I could you know, 338 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 3: figure out when to do that later on on, but 339 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 3: I don't need to put that on my calendar. But 340 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 3: for those things that take planning, you know, if I 341 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 3: need to block off time to plan for a presentation, 342 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 3: right a presentation is going to be depending on when 343 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 3: it's coming up, it's going to be high urgency. And 344 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 3: it's definitely going to be high effort, so I need 345 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 3: to block off time to do that, or if it's 346 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 3: something like filing by taxes, that might be low urgency, 347 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 3: depending on you know, how close tax day is, but 348 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 3: it's definitely going to be high effort to have to 349 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 3: sit down and look through all these financial records. Right, 350 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 3: So that's something that needs to go on my calendar. 351 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 3: But there's a difference now that I think I've got 352 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 3: a healthier balance now between those things that belong on 353 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 3: my calendar because they're either high effort or high urgency 354 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 3: or both, or those things that you know, just give 355 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 3: me a false sense of productivity and a high degree 356 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 3: of rigidity that probably is is more detrimental to my 357 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 3: productivity and my mental health than useful. 358 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: Now I'm curious about goal setting and accountability because I've 359 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: heard that you use accountability to make sure that you 360 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: do certain things. 361 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: Is that right? 362 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 4: Yeah? 363 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think one of the most powerful forces personally 364 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 3: that I have for making sure certain things get done 365 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 3: is by weaponizing accountability. I know that it's very easy 366 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 3: for me to let myself down and not really care 367 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 3: if you think about, like, you know, whether you're trying 368 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 3: to eat healthier or something like that, but you also 369 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 3: want to eat a candy bar and no one else knows, 370 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 3: and you're just like, Okay, that's fine, I'll have this 371 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 3: one and then I'll start again eating healthy the next 372 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 3: week or whatever. Or if you tell yourself that you're 373 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 3: going to, you know, go for a run for three 374 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 3: days this week, and you do two days and you're 375 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 3: like that third day, I'll just add an extra run 376 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 3: next week, right, like you can. It's very easy for me, 377 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 3: and I imagine most people to rationalize their way out 378 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 3: of whatever we want to rationalize ourselves into or out of. 379 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 3: But if I tell my plans to someone who I 380 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 3: don't want to disappoint, that thing is going to get done, 381 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 3: mostly because I hate disappointing people like I don't like. 382 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 4: Especially if it's if it's someone. 383 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 3: Who I know is going to hold me to that thing, 384 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 3: then yeah, then it'll work. 385 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 4: It's it's probably. I would say. 386 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 3: It's the second most powerful way for me to make 387 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 3: sure that I get something done. 388 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 4: The other one is a rougher option. 389 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of the website? I heard of 390 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 3: it back in college. I wonder if it still exists, 391 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 3: it's called stick STI KK. 392 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 4: If I remember correctly, Ah, that rings a bell. 393 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 3: It's it's really old. It's been around for a long time. 394 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 3: I learned about it in undergrad and college at university 395 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 3: when I was studying psychology and I was studying behavioral psychology. 396 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 4: And one of the things that I learned. 397 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 3: About was the reinforcement strategies. And the short of this website, 398 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 3: the summary of it is that you have an accountability 399 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 3: partner and have you set a goal. So let's say 400 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 3: that that goal is to go to the gym three 401 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 3: days a week. You set your goal, you tell your 402 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 3: accountability partner that goal, and then the way that I 403 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 3: did it, and there's I think there's a few different 404 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 3: ways to do it on this website, but there's one 405 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 3: very clever, very very powerful way of doing it is 406 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 3: you choose an anti charity. So an anti charity is 407 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 3: something for which an organization that has a cause that 408 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 3: you strongly disagree with, like that you are the opposite 409 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 3: of right. So in my case, my anti charity was 410 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 3: the NRA in the United States, the National Rifle Association, 411 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 3: this organization that, like you know, pushes for the advocacy 412 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 3: of everyone having guns I politically am not there. Or 413 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 3: then my best friend, she's a lesbian and there was 414 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 3: an anti marriage equality law and her anti charity was 415 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 3: an organization that was against LGBTQ people. 416 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 4: You set this anti. 417 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 3: Charity and then it'll automatically deduct five dollars from my 418 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 3: account if ever my accountability buddy pulls the trigger and 419 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 3: says that or presses the button and says that I 420 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 3: didn't do what I said that I was going to do. 421 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 3: So that's right, That's that's the nuclear option if I want, 422 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,479 Speaker 3: like I never missed the commitment whenever I wanted to 423 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 3: be that serious and use use the anti charity, because 424 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 3: you know, if you're choosing the right anti charity, it's 425 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 3: going to be something that like morally would like it 426 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 3: would it would hurt your soul. 427 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 4: To not do this thing. So when I was doing the. 428 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 3: Anti charity, I remember one night it was close to 429 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 3: midnight and I went to the gym because I was 430 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 3: not going to pay five dollars to this organization that 431 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 3: I didn't like. 432 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 2: That's so good. 433 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of Jordan soon and talking 434 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: about out of all the things that he's learned from 435 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: editing life hacker what has impacted his behavior the most. 436 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: If you're after even more things to improve the way 437 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: you work, you might want to check out my very 438 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: first digital course, The time Wise Challenge, where I've curated 439 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: the world's best kept secrets and strategies for maximizing productivity 440 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: to reclaim vital time, energy, and creativity. The time Wise 441 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: Challenge is a four week program that will guide you 442 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: through research based methods and tactics to increase your productivity. 443 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: The program covers four main areas, including how to have 444 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: better meetings, preserve your energy, overcome digital distractions, and. 445 00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: Tame your inbox. 446 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: Every morning, you'll receive an audio lesson from me through WhatsApp, 447 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: followed by an exercise or reflection prompt for the day. 448 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: You'll also hear from some of the world's greatest organizational 449 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: experts in their own words through curated soundbites pulled from 450 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: our interviews. My goal with this program is to make 451 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: this a daily, pocket sized productivity coach right in the 452 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: palm of your hand, and when you've completed the course, 453 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: you'll have the tools to reclaim your time and energy, 454 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: lead more productive meetings, boost team efficiency, and conquer your 455 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 1: email inbox. Your first step is to sign up and 456 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: get started today. Visit learn dot amantha dot com. That's 457 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: learn dot amantha dot com to get started today. 458 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 2: Now, something I imagine that we've got in common is 459 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 2: that in terms. 460 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: Of your like the things that you're learning and consuming, 461 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: Like you're learning a lot of great advice through your 462 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: role at life Hacker and through the podcast that you host, 463 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: the Upgrade, Like so many tools and tips and strategies 464 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 1: that you'd be hearing, I imagine every week. I'm curious 465 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: as to which ones have really stuck with you and 466 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: that you've implemented. 467 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. 468 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a few of them that come to mind. 469 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 3: The first one that comes to mind there was an 470 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 3: episode that we did with a writer named Daniel Pink, 471 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 3: and he had written a book. I'm drawing a blank 472 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 3: on the book title. 473 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 2: One of his race and ones might be when When Yes? 474 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 4: When? When Yes? When? By Daniel Pink. 475 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 3: It was about understanding your chronotype, like understanding whether you're 476 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 3: actually a morning person or an evening person or something 477 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 3: in between, and then deciding from there having a better 478 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 3: understanding of what type of work you should do at 479 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 3: what time and what time periods you should sort of 480 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 3: avoid doing things that are mentally taxing. For most of us, 481 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 3: that's going to be that after life un hour, like 482 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 3: that lull that we feel between like noon and three 483 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 3: o'clock when everyone's sort of groggy and not on their best. 484 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 3: For me, it meant understanding that I am a morning 485 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 3: person when it comes to productivity, Amantha. I probably get 486 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 3: more done between probably between six am and ten am 487 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 3: than I do the rest of the day combined. Like, 488 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 3: I am very much a morning person when it comes 489 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 3: to productivity, but I'm not very creative in the morning. 490 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 4: I can get things done. 491 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 3: I have a lot of willpower and a lot of 492 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 3: organizational skills at that early hour, but if I am 493 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 3: doing some creative writing, then that's going to be something 494 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 3: that I'm going to do closer to the evening. And 495 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 3: just understanding that about myself and understanding that that's sort 496 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 3: of a biological thing that really helps me make decisions 497 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 3: on when to do certain tasks as opposed to the 498 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 3: normal thing that I think about, which is what to 499 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 3: do and what to put off and that type of thing. 500 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 3: Understanding chronotypes really really helped a lot. So thank you, 501 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 3: Daniel Pink if you're listening today, There's one more thing 502 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 3: that I would add, and that is having an understanding 503 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 3: of habits and prompts. Just came from Charles Douhig, who's 504 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 3: written a number of books on productivity. I wanted to 505 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 3: read more. For example, There's very simple things that you 506 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 3: could do to get into the habit of reading. One 507 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 3: of those things is putting the book in a place 508 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 3: that I am going to see and that I'm going 509 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 3: to attach it to another task. So like there's already 510 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 3: a habit ingrained in me to brush my teeth before 511 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 3: I go to bed. If I can attach my reading 512 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 3: habit to brushing my teeth before I go to bed, 513 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 3: then it's a lot easier for that habit to be 514 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 3: adopted into my life. So now, you know, try to 515 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 3: get into this routine of brushing my teeth, going to 516 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 3: this book that's going to be right on top of 517 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 3: you know, right on top of my couch when I 518 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 3: go back to the living room, and then I can 519 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 3: sit for a little while and read book. 520 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:00,479 Speaker 4: Where I go. 521 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 3: So just trying to understand how to pair habits, pair 522 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 3: new aspirational habits with existing habits. That has gone a 523 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 3: long way and sort of changing my thinking on how 524 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,959 Speaker 3: I can get things done in a more, you know, 525 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 3: just sort of a natural way. I don't think of 526 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 3: brushing my teeth as a chore, so once I attach 527 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 3: something else to that task, I hopefully won't think of 528 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 3: that thing as a chore either. It's just a thing 529 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 3: that you do. 530 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: Now, I know that child Wilson gave you advice on 531 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 1: how to give advice, Is that right? 532 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah? Absolutely? 533 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 2: This, Yeah, tell me about that. 534 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 3: This changed a lot of my thinking on coaching and 535 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 3: collaborating with other people and how I myself learn and 536 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 3: how I can change things about myself that I might 537 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 3: want to change. And that comes down to the power 538 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 3: of stories. One of the things that science has shown 539 00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 3: us is that people naturally understand and advice through narrative 540 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 3: form in a way that is far more resonant, in 541 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 3: a way that we all can understand better than if 542 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 3: someone just gives us the information. So if I tell you, 543 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 3: you know, you shouldn't smoke cigarettes because it causes cancer, Okay, 544 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 3: that's information. But if I were to tell you a 545 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 3: personal story about how someone who I cared about smoked 546 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 3: and what their life with their relationship to cigarettes was 547 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 3: and how it affected them, I don't even necessarily have 548 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 3: to give advice. It's just you experiencing that story or 549 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 3: seeing that story. That's something that your brain can retain 550 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 3: a whole lot better. And it's also why books are 551 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 3: so important and movies are so important, and the media 552 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 3: that we consume is so important. It's because our brain 553 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 3: latches onto stories a whole lot more than straightforward logical information. 554 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: Now, something that I do in my life once a 555 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: fortnite is that I see my therapist or psychologist. And 556 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: I know that you've also got a regular appointment with 557 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: a therapist. 558 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,719 Speaker 2: Sorry, tell me how, like what role that plays in 559 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 2: your life? 560 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I had mentioned accountability before. I think she is 561 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 3: one of this not the biggest accountability structures in my life. 562 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 3: If I tell her I'm going to do something, then 563 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 3: ninety nine times out of one hundred, I will be 564 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 3: able to follow through and do that thing because she 565 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 3: because of the relationship that we have, like she is 566 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 3: going to be someone who I trust and she knows 567 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 3: the things that I want to accomplish and the challenges 568 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 3: and the opportunities and the struggles and the joys that 569 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 3: I have. And being able to have someone like that 570 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 3: and sharing your goals with like she's a very good 571 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 3: accountability buddy. I would recommend anyone who's interested in having 572 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 3: a therapist definitely take that leap in getting one. I 573 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 3: was one of those people that was apprehensive, to say 574 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 3: the least. I went very grudgingly into therapy years ago. 575 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 3: Like I was of the mindset that, you know, this 576 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 3: is obviously silly in craft, but it was just like, oh, 577 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 3: you know, crazy people go to therapy like you have 578 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 3: to be, you know, I have some type of significant 579 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 3: difficulties or have something terrible happen to you to be 580 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 3: benefited by therapy. 581 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 4: And that's absolutely not true. You can feel pretty. 582 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 3: On top of your life and still be greatly benefited 583 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 3: by talking through your feelings. And I look at a 584 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 3: therapist now the same way that I would any other 585 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 3: type of hygiene, whether it's going to the gym or 586 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 3: brushing my teeth. Like your heart and mind and emotions 587 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 3: need regular maintenance too, and I think that it's easily 588 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 3: something to overlook if you don't have a regular time 589 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 3: set aside to do that. And for some people, it 590 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 3: could be meditation, for some people, it could be therapy 591 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 3: for some people, could be something else for some people 592 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 3: could be a combination of those things. But having a 593 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 3: set aside time for your mental health and focusing on 594 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 3: understanding yourself and your happiness that I think is the 595 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 3: other side of productivity. I think there's so often that 596 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 3: we can focus on productivity and getting things done and 597 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 3: having the sense this is at least I should speak 598 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 3: for myself here. I had the sense that I was 599 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 3: what I could do, I was what I could produce, 600 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 3: I was my accomplishments. And it took some shifting on 601 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 3: my part in my thinking to understand that I am 602 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 3: not my accomplishment and I'm not what I do, and 603 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 3: that I can still have the level of success and 604 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 3: accomplishment when I'm approaching these things from a place of 605 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 3: love and enjoyment and not just trying to do something. 606 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 3: I guess to bring this conversation full circle, that's sort 607 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 3: of what it's like with skateboarding. Skateboarding isn't something that 608 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 3: I am really going to be accomplished at, but it 609 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 3: is something that I can approach with curiosity and do 610 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 3: it just for the enjoyment and the fun of it 611 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 3: and having those type of escapes, having those types of 612 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 3: hobbies that aren't monetized and aren't very serious to you, 613 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 3: but that are just fun or relaxing or cathartic or 614 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 3: just enjoyable. Those are the things that give me the 615 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 3: energy to go back to the things where I do 616 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 3: need to be focused and be productive and be able 617 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 3: to have a balance between those two things. It's only 618 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 3: helped my productivity. 619 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: I can totally relate something that I became aware of. 620 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: So my appointment with my therapist is in the middle 621 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: of the day on a Wednesday, and what I realized 622 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: is that I wasn't actually leaving any room after the 623 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: appointment ended, before my assistant would just schedule a meeting 624 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: in my diary. And like literally this just occurred to 625 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: me two or three weeks ago, And I now like 626 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: a blocking out, just half an hour of buffer time 627 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: to decompress and possibly journal, which I feel would be 628 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: useful to do straight after therapy when you just have 629 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: no idea what emotional state you'll be in at the 630 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: end of that hour or fifty minutes. I'm curious, do 631 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: you have any rituals or routines around what you do 632 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: after your therapy session or what you do sort of 633 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: in between the weekly sessions. 634 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 3: Mine is similar to you, but slightly different. So my therapist. 635 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,720 Speaker 3: My appointment with my therapist is also on a Wednesday, 636 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 3: but it's Wednesday at the end of the day, so 637 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 3: that there is no meetings afterwards. But it is right, 638 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 3: and it's like my mental oasis right in the middle 639 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 3: of the week and where you journal after your appointment. 640 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 3: I try to journal throughout the week leading up to 641 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 3: the appointment so that I know what it is that 642 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 3: I want to talk about. 643 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 4: And that's mostly. 644 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 3: Because I sort of this applies to almost anything in 645 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 3: my brain. I can think of something, something I want 646 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 3: to write, something I want to do, something that I 647 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 3: want to remember, and I'll tell myself i'll remember it 648 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 3: when the time comes. I'll just completely lie to myself 649 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 3: and think that I can recall it when it needs 650 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 3: to be recalled, And of course that never works, right, 651 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 3: So that's why we should keep these lists. That's why 652 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 3: we have these note taking apps. And I got in 653 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 3: the habit relatively recently, i'd say, a few months ago, 654 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 3: of keeping a really small notebook and when certain things 655 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 3: go on during the week, or if I notice myself 656 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 3: feeling particularly good or particularly bad, or something that's notable, 657 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 3: scribbling that down so that when Wednesday rolls around, I 658 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 3: can decide whether that's worth diving into. Did I feel 659 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 3: better since that thing happened or since I felt that way? 660 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 3: Or do I feel worse? Is this something that's lingering 661 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 3: is it not? And that informs the types of things 662 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 3: that I discuss with my therapist, and it makes those sessions. 663 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 3: I mean, it feels weird saying this because productivity isn't 664 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 3: the goal, but it makes those sessions a lot more productive, 665 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 3: right because I know what it is that I want 666 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 3: to talk about, and we're not spending time with me 667 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 3: wondering like what are we going to talk about this week? 668 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 3: What's going on? You know, there's not that sort of 669 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 3: pulling teeth in the beginning. It's like, oh, this happened, 670 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 3: and these other things happened, and I get to sort 671 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 3: of triage my hour that way. 672 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 2: I really like that strategy. 673 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: I think I'm going to try adopting That's like, it's 674 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: Wednesday now here in Velvet and I'm seeing my therapist 675 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: in a few hours, so I can't adopt it this week, 676 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: but I think I'm going to adopt it for the 677 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: next whatnot, Now, you're a prolific radar. What's your approach 678 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: to rating non fiction? And I guess like learning as 679 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: much as you can remembering what you've learned. 680 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, Thankfully having a podcast that's based on productivity and 681 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 3: having conversations with dozens of authors every year sort of 682 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 3: takes care of that for me, Like I always have 683 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 3: a new book to read that is nonfiction that's about 684 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 3: improving some part of my life, so that that is 685 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 3: that's sort of carved out for me by way of 686 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 3: this podcast, and I've been trying to just given since 687 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 3: that exists in my professional life, I've been trying to 688 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 3: continue to lean into stories to learn what I can 689 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 3: from fiction as sort of a going back to what 690 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 3: I learned from Charles Duig about how we learn certain things, 691 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 3: how we learn most things a better way through narrative. 692 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 3: I've been trying to lean into fiction more and to 693 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 3: find the lessons and the stories from there and try 694 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 3: to have a balance between between fiction and nonfiction. I 695 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 3: find that when I do lean too much towards fiction, 696 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 3: I or I'm sorry towards When I do lean too 697 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 3: much towards nonfiction, then it becomes sort of a robotic 698 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 3: process and I don't retain as much as I need to. 699 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 3: I think we've all had that experience reading a nonfiction book, 700 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 3: because they can tend to be drier, where you know, 701 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 3: you read several pages, so you could read several paragraphs 702 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,800 Speaker 3: and you're like, I don't even remember what I just read. 703 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 3: And I find that the best way to retain the 704 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 3: more serious, you know, more serious, rigid nonfiction work is 705 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 3: to balance that out so that it's it's complemented by 706 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 3: fiction as well. 707 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: Now, given how many nonfiction books you've read, what A two, 708 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: a three that have had the biggest impact on your life? 709 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 3: So there's Atomic Habits. Have you read that one? 710 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 2: I sure I have? 711 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: Yes by James Clear Yes. Did you like Tiny Habits 712 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:10,800 Speaker 1: by BJ Fog? 713 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 3: I did not read Tiny Habits? 714 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 4: Tell me about it? 715 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 2: That is a really good one. I guess. 716 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: It is sort of somewhat self explanatory, and it's about 717 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: the idea of making permanent behavior change is to break 718 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: habits down into really tiny components, like things that you 719 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,399 Speaker 1: can do in thirty seconds or less. And so that's 720 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: sort of the premise of the book, and then how 721 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: we can make those tiny habits stick through similar to 722 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: what you were saying earlier in this chat around linking 723 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 1: new habits that we're trying to form onto existing ones 724 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,800 Speaker 1: and also then associating them with positive emotion. 725 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 2: So it's a good one to read. I really liked it. 726 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 3: I will look into that. I will definitely look into that. 727 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 3: Another one that I read not too long ago was 728 00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 3: Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker. 729 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 2: Love that book. 730 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one that sort of can change your life. 731 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 3: I mean there's especially in productivity and hustle culture, where 732 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 3: there's so much of a warped sense of pride in 733 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 3: working hard and neglecting your sleep, sort of as a 734 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 3: sense of pride, like oh, like, you know, we all 735 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,879 Speaker 3: say we're so busy, and you know, I only got 736 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 3: four hours of sleep last night because I had to 737 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 3: wake up and do this other busy thing because we're all, 738 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 3: you know, such busy, important people, right, And it's like 739 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 3: you think that that's harder work. Like you think that 740 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 3: that's hard work, and you think that sleep deprivation, at 741 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,240 Speaker 3: least in certain circles can be worn as a badge 742 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,160 Speaker 3: of pride, something that shows just how tenacious you are. 743 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,439 Speaker 3: But really it's just sabotaging you, Like there is there 744 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 3: is no at least now the way that I've sort 745 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,240 Speaker 3: of shifted my thinking, there is no sense of pride 746 00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 3: or reward and exhausting myself and being so fatigued, so 747 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 3: sleep deprived and so tired that I'm like not functioning optimally. 748 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 3: Part of being a productive, well rounded, well adjusted person 749 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 3: is sleeping a pretty optimal amount and shedding some of 750 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 3: those preconceived ideas about sleep being tied to laziness or 751 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 3: naps being tied to laziness. That's another thing, going back 752 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,720 Speaker 3: to Daniel Pink's book, When is the sort of idea 753 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 3: that many of us had, or many of us were 754 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 3: taught about naps being this thing for the lazy this, 755 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,240 Speaker 3: or naps being this thing that you do because you, 756 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 3: you know, because you're not this tenacious, go getting person. 757 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 3: And it's quite the opposite. You can sleep when you're tired. 758 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 3: That's not a character flaw. That's something that your body 759 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 3: needs and it's something that will ultimately probably make you 760 00:40:53,680 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 3: more productive. So that's another example. There was a much 761 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 3: of time where I was really into positive psychology, So 762 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 3: there are a few books that I read around the topic. 763 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 3: Then I'm trying to think of I think it was 764 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 3: the happiness Curve. There's a book called The Happiness Curve, 765 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 3: and it was basically a compilation of a lot of 766 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 3: research about what we know about being happy and what 767 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,879 Speaker 3: actually makes people happy is quite different than what most 768 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,319 Speaker 3: of us think makes us happy, Like we're really bad. 769 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,399 Speaker 3: One of the main takeaways from the book is that 770 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 3: we are very bad at predicting what makes us happy, 771 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 3: like what actually makes us happy? I you know, in 772 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 3: my head, my sort of knee jerk thought to what 773 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 3: would make me happy would be having accomplished a lot 774 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,839 Speaker 3: of things. But that's not what's actually going to make 775 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 3: me happy. That's not what's going to fulfill me as 776 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 3: much as strong relationships and other things. 777 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:56,399 Speaker 2: Right. 778 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 3: So that was another great book that sort of balanced 779 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 3: out the productivity mindset with the why am I trying 780 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 3: to be so productive anyway? And maybe I should also 781 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 3: focus on my mental health and happiness aspect. 782 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: Welso, I will link to all those in the show notes. Now, Jordan, 783 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 1: for people that want to connect with you, read what 784 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: you're writing, listen to your podcast. 785 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 2: What is the best way for people to do that? 786 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 4: Absolutely? 787 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 3: So my podcast is called The Upgrade by Life Packer, 788 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 3: so you can search that in anyone of your podcasting 789 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 3: apps and you'll find the upgrade. I also recently have 790 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 3: a newsletter a column that I launched with The Atlantic, 791 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 3: So if you're an Atlantic subscriber, it's actually free for 792 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 3: this month, but then you have to be an Atlantic subscriber, 793 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 3: and it's called Humans Being. 794 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,839 Speaker 4: Humans Being basically. 795 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 3: Looks at pop culture and tries to find the lessons 796 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,280 Speaker 3: in it. Similar to what we were talking about earlier 797 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 3: in our conversation, where we can find a lot of 798 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,919 Speaker 3: lessons in the serious nonfiction stuff that we read, there's 799 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 3: also a lot of lessons that can be found in 800 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 3: the fiction that we consume as well, and my column 801 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 3: Humans Being basically tries to explore that and tries to 802 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,360 Speaker 3: find the lessons in fiction so that we can decide, 803 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 3: you know, how, how can we learn from the stories 804 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 3: that we're consuming every day. 805 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 4: And you can. 806 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 3: Find everything else on my website Jordan MS and Michael 807 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 3: jordanimcalhoun dot com and I'm on Twitter and Instagram at 808 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 3: Jordan M Calhoun, so you can always find me on Twitter. 809 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 3: That is probably where I would like interact with people 810 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 3: the most, because you know, you're probably not going to 811 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 3: get through to. 812 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 4: My inbox exactly. 813 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 2: I'm certainly not getting through to you. Fine, definitely, this 814 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 2: has just made such. 815 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,239 Speaker 1: A joy, Like where has the hour gone? I have 816 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: no idea. I just loved chatting to you. I wish 817 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: we had like another five hours, but I need to 818 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,319 Speaker 1: let you get on with your evening in New York. 819 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 2: So thank you so much. 820 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 1: I feel like I got so many practical tips from Jordan. 821 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: There are so many things that I want to try out, 822 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,839 Speaker 1: and the very first thing I'm going to do is 823 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to work out how to block random numbers 824 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,360 Speaker 1: on my phone, so tell you what. I am sick 825 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,960 Speaker 1: of getting calls from all sorts of people that I 826 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 1: don't know who are trying to sell me things. So 827 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,040 Speaker 1: that is something I'm definitely going to do. 828 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:28,879 Speaker 2: Now. 829 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: If you have not hit subscribe or follow wherever you're 830 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: listening to this podcast from, you might want to do 831 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: that because next week I'm very excited to share my 832 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: chat with Katie Milkman, who is an expert on the 833 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: science of change, and we'll be talking about how she 834 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 1: has created big and small changes in her own life. 835 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventing with production support 836 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. The producers for this episode were 837 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: Liam Ridan and Jenna Cooder. And thank you to Martin 838 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:00,719 Speaker 1: Nimba who did the audio. 839 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 2: Mix and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise. 840 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 2: See you next time.