WEBVTT - Shining A Light For Elijah 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:06.000 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:10.000 verdicts against all three defendants. It was absolutely shambles, to 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:10.760 tell you the truth. 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:12.000 Just actually really. 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.120 Padan blood on his clothing the day after the alleged attap. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:16.880 On a shallow mud bank and it fits through a river. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.079 Basically, I think most of the people are used to 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:20.520 me are good people. 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.200 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:26.279 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.800 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pull back the 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.360 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.160 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:38.520 Amy Maguire and. 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:42.040 I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.400 Support Service. And a warning, this series contains the names 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:50.760 of deceased peoples and has distressing content that might upset 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:52.040 some listeners. 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:58.080 This special episode of Curtain is dedicated with our love 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:00.520 to Elijah and his family. 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:03.640 First and foremost, I just want to pay my respects 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:05.959 to the traditional owners and the land we were gathering 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:10.200 here today, the elder's past and present. My name is 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:13.600 Main White. I'm a one of than man. I'm from Calgarley. 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:19.440 Elijah Dohity is my blood. He's my family. My father 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:23.959 in two thousand and one proclaimed Calgary the most racist 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:28.560 town in Australia. He had lived there since nineteen seventy three. 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:30.920 In nineteen seventy three, my father took a bus from 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.720 Laverden which is now as Drive, from Calguley and took 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:39.040 Indigenous people from the Skull Rock Skull Rock Royal Commission. 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.080 He took Indigenous people from Kowguley all the way from 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.080 labor and all the way to Calgouley. When he got there, 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:51.720 six policemen beat him brutally. One of those policemen became 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:57.680 the Commissioner of Police in Western Australia. For all the 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.600 years my father had lived there, my father passed away 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:04.280 two years ago. From all the years that my father 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.960 has lived there, he said, nothing has changed all the 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.519 way up from then to night to two thousand and one. 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:16.040 Elijah Doughty is my family, my blood. I'm from Calgary. 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.080 I lived in Calgary. I lived there. I lived up 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:23.760 until I was seventeen. I lived I know that life. 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:26.919 I've been chased. I've been chased by people in cars, 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:31.320 white people in cars. I know what it's like. I 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:35.000 lived there, I lived that life. But this kid was fourteen, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.320 he was a child. He was murdered. Let's not get 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:40.440 the facts. Let's not get the stuff that's twisted. 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:41.720 He was murdered. 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:49.200 It was a manslaughter and reckless driving. Three years three years. 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.440 Now. In this episode of Curtain, we'll be looking in 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:58.240 more depth into the case of Elijah Dadi. At one 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:02.359 of the protests in Sydney, Kevin's friend David tex Chapman, 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.920 who's been on this podcast before, got up with a 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.359 poster in support of Kevin, and he made the point 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:13.720 that this man convicted of dangerous driving occasioning death over 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.280 the death of Elijah Dowdy would most likely be out 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:19.600 in February when he's. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:24.960 Eligible for parole. He compared that to Kevin Henry. Kevin 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:28.639 Henry is serving time for a crime he did not commit. 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.720 He's been locked up for twenty six years, and as 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:36.120 we've explained on this podcast numerous times, his parole has 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:40.000 been knocked back on several occasions, and we've explained a 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:43.200 lot of the detail and the reasons behind that. But 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.520 text made a very good point about the differences in 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:51.280 the way the justice system treats white perpetrators and the 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:53.000 way it treats black victims. 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:55.400 So we're going to talk a little bit more about 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:59.920 Elijah Dowdy's case and what it says about Kevin Henry. 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:02.600 So Martin, I mean, dealt with. 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:06.200 A lot of cases, and you've spoken and become close 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.360 to a lot of victims, particularly do I think custody 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:14.160 of victims, but also victims who have been wrongfully convicted. 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:16.800 When you heard about a Elijah Dowdy's case in the 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:20.599 recent decision in the Supreme Court of Western Austraia, what 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:22.919 was your reaction maybe your personal reaction. 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.719 For me, my personal reaction was immediately anger. That was 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:32.960 because I understand previous cases where the same charges have 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:37.360 been brought in wa where much harsher sentences have been 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:41.560 handed out, and they were the sort of sentences you 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:45.359 would hope and we were hoping to hear would come down. 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:50.960 But to see once again the justice system fail an 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:56.039 Aboriginal family, and in particular a young Aboriginal boy who'd 0:04:56.080 --> 0:05:01.040 done nothing wrong. You can't kill someone because they're riding 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.400 a bike you believe is yours to then no one 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:07.800 finds out this man would be eligible for parole just 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.320 early next year, just rub salt into the wound, and 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:17.040 you can only imagine how Elijah's family is feeling. And 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.440 also why there is so much grief and anger in 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:25.680 the Aboriginal community right across the country. Too many times 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.679 people who have murdered Aboriginal people and in this case 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:33.839 a child, have gotten away with it. Too many times 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.440 when Aboriginal people have been murdered, no one's ever even 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:44.400 been charged. So what other response to people expect than grief, anger, 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.400 and frustration. And I think one thing that angers me 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:52.279 in particular is not only the justice system we know 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.760 it's failed time and again, but some of the media 0:05:55.880 --> 0:06:02.400 reporting and particularly referencing rioting, fighting behavior when such an 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.920 injustice takes place. We live in a democracy where the 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:11.440 right to protest is vital to that democracy's existence. And 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:15.039 if you can't protest and be angry and call for 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.760 justice when a child is hunted down and killed by 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.720 a man in a large four wheel drive, when else 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:26.240 can you be angry? And I think that was just 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.800 part of the feeling that many people had this week. 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.960 It just says you can do everything right, play by 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.880 the rules, and even when they kill your children, you 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.520 can't get justice, and I think that's an awful message 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:43.760 the justice system is sent this week, and it's a 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:45.320 disgrace what's happened. 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:48.320 In wa One of the things that angered me quite 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.080 a lot in this case and also just waiting for 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.040 it to go to trial, is the fact that Aboriginal 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:58.360 people have to justify the humanity of Elijah Dowdy. They 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:01.640 have to actually go to extra lengths to show that, 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.680 you know, the actions that man took that day in 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.240 running over this young boy was simply not justified, and 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:14.080 yet across social media, even in the media, it was 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.280 almost as if people were trying to justify his actions, 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.840 to try and claim that he was right, that somehow 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:25.760 his completely disproportionate response was right in taking after that 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:28.559 young boy. And a lot of it's focused on whether 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.360 or not he stole a motorbike, and we know that 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:36.040 there's no evidence that Elijah actually stole that bike. There's 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.520 no real evidence that it was that man's bike in question. 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:42.760 It seems to be a lot of conjecture at the moment, 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:47.000 and there definitely wasn't any evidence that if it was stolen, 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.840 Olijah actually knew it was stolen. And yet it seems 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.480 to be there's this emotional burden on Aboriginal people all 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:58.000 across Australia, but most particularly on Elijah's family to try 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:02.840 and to justify his right to be free and writing 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.880 around Calgouli. And it's just I don't think any other 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.600 Australian family would have to do that. When we see 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:14.600 other cases of murdered children, they are never acquired to 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.120 do that. In fact, they automatically had the support and 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.840 the sympathy of wider Australia. They end up on sixty minutes, 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.440 they end up on the front page of newspapers. We 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:27.440 saw with Daniel Walcombe that obviously, you know, I remember 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.600 at one point the Premier and members of the Queensland government, 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:34.240 we're out walking with his family. You know, everyone supports 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.600 his family. And yet and yet, for some reason, when 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.280 it comes to Aboriginal families, when they moren their their children, 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:44.520 they have to go through so many greater lengths in 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:48.520 order to just in order just to get what should 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.840 be you know, basic human decency. I mean, I think 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:55.480 that's what really angered me as well, is the aftermath 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.800 and just the racism, the pure racism that's continually shown 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.000 by a non Indigenous Australia, even when it's something that 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.360 should be so black and white as to be about 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:10.600 the case of a murdered child, a complete innocent child. 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.960 I totally agree, and I think that's where a huge 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:19.640 amount of frustration has come. And everything you say is 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:24.360 absolutely spot on, and anecdotes never make great evidence. But 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:27.200 I want to give an anecdote that touched me the 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:31.800 most this week, and that is that I've been fortunate enough, 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.760 through the organization I work with, Foreign Prisoner Support Service 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.200 to have worked with the Morchambe family and what amazing 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:44.080 people they are and how the community rallied around them, 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:49.400 and justifiably so, nobody who kills a child should be 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:53.880 on the street. If anyone belongs in prison, it's them. 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.320 But then at a protest in Perth this week, a 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.679 friend of mine took along her little boy. He's an 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:06.000 Aboriginal boy of just four years old, and he protested 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:11.679 holding up a sign. He's a four year old Aboriginal boy. Four, 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.960 he's not even old enough for school, and he's having 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.839 to justify his right to live, that he doesn't want 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.280 to be the next victim, that his humanity and that 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.840 of Elijah's has to be honored by the Australian community, 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:30.199 and it's not. What does it say about our society, 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.560 let alone the justice system and our politicians and our police. 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.240 When a four year old boy in Australia has to 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.960 protest because he's scared if he is killed or his 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.520 two year old sister is killed, there will be no justice. 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.520 Children should not have to know such things. Elijah should 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.680 not have had to know what he experienced, and nor 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.560 should his family ever have had to deal with what 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:00.600 happened to him, let alone their appalling treatment ever since 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:05.440 their child was murdered. It might be an anecdote, but 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:09.079 it's two groups of people who I've come to know, 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:14.040 one white family, one Aboriginal family, and the difference in 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:19.760 their treatment says everything about how Australian society treats Aboriginal people. 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.600 In twenty seventeen, Martin, coming back. 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.040 To the details of Elijah's case, and this is what's 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.840 been reported in the media, is that there seemed to 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.160 be a focus on the last I think it is 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:37.400 twenty seconds of Elijah's life, and because obviously Elijah wasn't 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:39.840 there to tell us his side of the story, a 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.319 lot of it rested on the man's version of events, 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.480 and what he claims is that while while he was 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.679 chasing Elijah down, Elijah veered into the direction of his car, 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.840 and the man claims that he didn't mean to do it. 0:11:56.480 --> 0:12:00.560 And yet when police actually got there that day, they 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.920 drove over the tire marks, and they, i think from 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.360 whatever in the media, they drove over them quite a 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.200 couple of times. And so there's no way of being 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.600 able to piece together what really happens. So a lot 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.520 of it rested on that man's testimony. What do you 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:19.760 think of the police investigation in that sense that it 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:23.120 literally come down to the man's version of events, because 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:25.960 the police seem to have contaminated a great deal of 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:27.600 the crime scene. 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.439 I think there's a number of things there. I think 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:34.000 we have to start with the fact that the police 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.560 had already told this gentleman where to go and look 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.800 for his bike. Now, again, we don't even know if 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:46.080 the bike that was involved belonged to this gentleman, and 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:50.480 we certainly don't know, and it's highly doubtful in my opinion, 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.840 that even if the bike was his, that Elijah was 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:58.280 the one who stole it. What we do know, though, 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:00.840 as you point out, is that the police arrived on 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:06.320 the scene having been called, knowing that this was a 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:10.480 serious event that had taken place, in fact so serious 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:14.319 a child had lost their life. It doesn't get any 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.280 worse than that in what at that time they were 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:21.360 treating as a traffic incident. And remember a traffic incident 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:26.960 can result in a murder or manslaughter charge. Vehicular manslaughter 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:31.280 is not an uncommon thing in Australia. So the way 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.960 they secure the crime scene so that the police crash 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:37.960 investigators could do their job and get to the bottom 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:42.320 of it is absolutely crucial. But as you point out, 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.880 once they'd driven all over the scene, driven through the 0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:48.520 oil patch that was left behind by the man's four 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:53.560 wheel drive, driven multiple times over the tire tracks of 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:58.400 his four wheel drive, it made the expert police's job 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.760 almost impossible. So those police who responded very early on, 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:07.360 and maybe these are the same police who tipped this 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:10.240 man off as to where to go looking for his bike, 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.720 the bike he claims was stolen, are the same ones 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.800 that destroyed any evidence that would give Elijah his final 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:23.280 voice as to what actually happened. There's no way we 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:27.320 can ever know if Elijah did in fact swerve in 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:32.800 front of the man. If Elijah swerved, it doesn't matter. 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.680 The man should never have been behind him in the 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:39.760 first place. And I think some of the key facts 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.280 we need to break down are very important because there's 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.280 a lot we don't know, and we don't know because 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:51.320 we're relying on this man's word, and we can't know 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:56.160 because the police drove over the crime scene. But here's 0:14:56.200 --> 0:15:01.000 what we do know. This man, believing his bike had 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:06.240 been stolen, took the day off work, so quite clearly 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:10.280 he had an intent very early on to suggest. I think, 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.400 as the media has and those who were defending this 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:15.960 gentleman have said, is that it all revolves around that 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:20.080 last twenty seconds is a total lie. This man had 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.920 made the conscious decision to take a day off work. 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.160 Then he made a conscious decision to get in his 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:31.520 full wheel drive and lay in wait. He then pursued 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:37.640 Elijah at speed and very close to the motorcycle Elijah 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:42.800 was riding. All of these things go to the intent 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:47.320 of this man far beyond that final twenty seconds that 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:51.080 he claims to be an accident. This has nothing to do, 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.760 in my opinion, whether Elijah swerved or didn't swerve. This 0:15:55.880 --> 0:16:01.000 is about vigilante justice in Western Australia that a man 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:05.400 is told by police where his motorcycle that was allegedly 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.520 stolen could be. If the police had gone and looked 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:13.200 for that motorcycle in the first place, we wouldn't be 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.440 here right now. If the police had done their job 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.640 the day before Elijah died, none of this would have 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.880 ever happened. But because the police didn't do their job, 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:31.440 and because they interfered knowingly or unknowingly with the crime scene, 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:35.240 we see a man take a two ton vehicle and 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:39.440 chase after a fourteen year old boy. So while we 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:44.440 might never know exactly what happened, I think we have 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.080 to all agree that placing it on that last twenty 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:52.640 seconds of Elijah's life does no justice in getting to 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:53.200 the truth. 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:56.040 And you raise a really good point. 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.200 I mean, I think we even have to go further 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.480 back than before that day because it was something that 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.639 never came up in the trial. There was a. 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:06.600 Group on Facebook where. 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.040 A lot of non indigenous residents in cal Gurley were 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.439 actually congregating to talk about what they say were a 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:16.679 spade of stolen bikes and vehicles, and some of the 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:21.680 comments made on those social media pages were just completely outrageous. 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.480 They're talking about hunting them down. I mean, they were 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:27.520 the very examples of the vigilante justice you were just 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.120 talking about, and yet that was never raised in court 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:35.320 from my understanding, so it's even I guess the wider 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.360 context of what's actually happening in cal Gurley, which is 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:43.800 obviously such a place of such extreme racism. 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:45.720 I mean, I think you'd call it one of the. 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:50.200 Most racist towns in Australia. So from that backdrop, I 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.399 mean you could even bring that into play, couldn't you. 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.840 I mean, what's the reasoning behind not being able to 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:01.520 include those social media pages in court? 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.760 Well, I think it goes to the fact that Aboriginal 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:10.080 lives are just not given any worth. I think to 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:14.760 link what you've just raised, which is a very valid 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.639 point with what I was speaking about earlier. In light 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:23.680 of there being this Facebook group calling for horrific vigilante 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:28.560 justice to be dished out against Aboriginal children, why on 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:32.760 earth would a police officer suggest that this man go 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:37.960 and look for his own stolen property. Surely the police 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:41.440 a should have been taking action to close this Facebook 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:46.040 page down, should have been taking action against those calling 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:51.399 for vigilante justice against young Aboriginal children, especially given the 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:55.040 graphic and violent nature of what people were calling for. 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.200 And then to know about this, and it's no secret 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:03.719 that this group and other Facebook groups around Australia exist 0:19:03.960 --> 0:19:08.359 that target young Aboriginal people. For the police then to 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.840 encourage this man to go and look for his bike himself, 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:17.479 was always going to end in tragic consequences. And this 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:21.520 comes back to a point we've discussed on this podcast before. 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:27.600 Aboriginal people are automatically criminalized. If there was a Facebook 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:32.159 group calling for the murder of white children, would we 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:36.320 see that Facebook stay up? And if such a group 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:41.320 existed in a small town and an Aboriginal person called 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.080 the police and said they were looking for something of 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.960 theirs they thought was stolen by a white child, would 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:51.760 they instruct this Aboriginal man to go looking to where 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.040 these white children are known to hang out. There's not 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.520 a chance in hell that would happen, And that would 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.200 not happen because the police police would be setting up 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:06.000 for a situation. Justice has unfolded. So I think, as 0:20:06.000 --> 0:20:09.919 you suggest, the racism of Calgooli is central to what 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:15.119 took place, and the police have to take full responsibility here. 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.840 If Aboriginal lives are worth those of everyone else's and 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.920 the police are there to protect and serve, what were 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.920 they doing to protect the children who are being targeted 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:30.800 by this Facebook group? And on the back of this 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:35.320 Facebook group existing comes to death and I would say 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:40.879 murder of young Elijah. And yet we're seeing no calls 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:47.080 for the people involved in administering in administering this group 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.679 to face any consequences for their action. We're seeing no 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:55.480 calls for reforms of police's action in what they did 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:59.359 that led to these events. All we're seeing is Elijah's 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:03.719 family in the end Aboriginal community have to justify his humanity. 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:10.200 Why a man who killed their child will walk free 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:15.080 before the next summer is even over. I don't see 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:19.440 how that can be acceptable to anyone. And again, this 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:23.400 is clearly an issue of race, and until people accept that, 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.360 we're not going to get to the bottom of what happened. 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:30.240 And this is not a one off thing for Western 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:31.879 Australia so much. 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:35.000 I think even now there's quite a lot of confusion 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:39.840 about why sentence was so short and short compared to 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:44.720 cases of dangerous writing that you hear about every so often. 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.960 I mean putting it into the context of other cases 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:51.480 like this. Was this a lenient sentence? 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:56.359 Yeah, I think it was an exceptionally lenient sentence. And 0:21:56.920 --> 0:22:01.640 we've heard this week in the media legal experts talk 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:05.159 about this being a harsh sentence. Well, that was another 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:10.080 thing that infuriated me this week because in just a 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:12.919 matter of seconds, a quick search of the records in 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:19.280 Western Australia showed sentences far, far longer and more substantial 0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:23.160 that had been handed down for exactly the same thing, 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:28.000 dangerous driving causing death. But I also want to go 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:31.399 to the issue of manslaughter, and this was something that 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:35.560 Chief Justice Martin had to re explain to the jury. 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.679 And one thing Justice Martin did was use a word 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:42.720 that would help make it easier to understand what the 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:47.480 jury were having to come to terms with, because often 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:51.800 juries are not aware of the legal terms and their complexities. 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.199 And it's quite easy again with a quick search of 0:22:56.520 --> 0:23:00.200 WA's records to see that this same word has been 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:05.840 used by many judges across the state to help juries 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:10.520 in their deliberation. And that word is not just did 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:14.280 this individual drive in a manner that was criminally negligent, 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:18.600 but was it grossly negligent, and if so, that would 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:22.520 constitute the man slaughter charge and would have seen the 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:26.240 man face more like ten years in prison. And I 0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:29.760 just want to go to that word grossly negligent, and 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:35.240 this is how it's defined. A very obvious and unacceptable 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:40.280 manner is chasing a fourteen year old child at high 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:43.879 speed in a two ton four wheel drive a child 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:48.080 on a small motorbike that may not be yours, and 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:51.120 gaining on that child at a rate of five point 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:55.600 six meters a second into rough dirt road where you 0:23:55.680 --> 0:23:57.840 have no control of your vehicle. 0:23:59.240 --> 0:23:59.520 Is that. 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:07.000 Is that obviously flagrant and dangerous. All the jury had 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:10.159 to decide was that that was the case based on 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:13.960 the facts and the facts alone, And once again, as 0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:19.119 we've spoken about on this podcast, I would suggest that 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:22.439 if the people listening don't go off the facts of 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:26.399 what we said, it's been reported very clearly as to 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:31.119 what was presented in the courtroom, and that alone should 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:33.320 have been enough for a jury to find that this 0:24:33.520 --> 0:24:39.400 was grossly negligent. And yet they didn't come to that determination. 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:43.600 And all I can assume is that that was because 0:24:43.960 --> 0:24:47.159 of the race of the child. And how can I 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:51.560 prove that, well, what do we know about Western Australia's 0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:58.720 criminal justice system? Just recently, an Aboriginal man, Gene Gibson, 0:24:59.320 --> 0:25:02.840 was released after five and a half years behind bars. 0:25:03.720 --> 0:25:08.119 He was found guilty of manslaughter and an unlawful killing 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:11.640 and sentenced to seven and a half years, of which 0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:15.440 he served five years behind bars. But here's the thing. 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:21.480 Gene didn't commit the crime. Gene has a cognitive impairment. 0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:25.560 Gene was forced to confess to something he didn't do, 0:25:26.119 --> 0:25:30.880 and because of that he's been released despite losing five 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:35.600 years of his life. This man has been found guilty 0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:40.000 of a charge, admittedly a lesser charge, and will be 0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:44.200 out halfway through the next summer. But had he been 0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:47.080 found guilty of the same charge that Jene was found 0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:50.919 guilty of when there was no evidence at all, no 0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:55.600 forensic evidence, no witness testimony, and a forced confession alone, 0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:59.600 Whereas here we have forensic evidence even if it had 0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:04.479 been to disturbed. We have CCTV footage, we know the 0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:07.360 man took the day off, we know he lay in waiting, 0:26:08.320 --> 0:26:12.720 and yet a Western Australian jury could not find this 0:26:12.840 --> 0:26:17.480 man guilty of manslaughter as they could find Gene Gibson 0:26:17.880 --> 0:26:22.280