1
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,040
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for.

2
00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:11,200
Speaker 2: The time poor parent who just wants answers. Now, back

3
00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,239
Speaker 2: when I was doing my undergraduate psychology degree, we're going

4
00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,040
Speaker 2: back a couple of decades now. During the developmental psychology

5
00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,599
Speaker 2: course that I took, I was introduced to the work

6
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,600
Speaker 2: of j Belski. Jay Belski is has been and continues

7
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,800
Speaker 2: to be one of the world's foremost experts on childcare.

8
00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,200
Speaker 2: What we do with our kids when they're too little

9
00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,519
Speaker 2: for school, but we need them to go somewhere to

10
00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,159
Speaker 2: be looked after, because well, life is complicated. What I

11
00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,560
Speaker 2: found when I was doing that research surprised me. It

12
00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,559
Speaker 2: seemed that the ideological positions that people took on childcare

13
00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,839
Speaker 2: were not consistent with what research showed. But whenever I

14
00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,800
Speaker 2: would point that out, I kind of got shouted down. Now,

15
00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,120
Speaker 2: I recognize that this is a really sensitive topic and

16
00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,559
Speaker 2: I want to tread carefully here, But I recently came

17
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,560
Speaker 2: across an article written by Jay Belski and Janet Ericson.

18
00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,680
Speaker 2: I've reached out to Janet Ericson to give me a

19
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,080
Speaker 2: bit of an overview and help us to understand what

20
00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:08,440
Speaker 2: research is actually telling us about kids and childcare, so

21
00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 2: that we can well when our kids need to be there,

22
00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,360
Speaker 2: when we need that double income, when the economy demands

23
00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,080
Speaker 2: to parents working, what we can do to help our

24
00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,080
Speaker 2: children to thrive, when childcare does not always support them best. Now,

25
00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:22,160
Speaker 2: before we start, I want to highlight I recognize that

26
00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,840
Speaker 2: for many people it's simply essential. Secondly, I want to

27
00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,240
Speaker 2: recognize that people who work in childcare in the main

28
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,959
Speaker 2: are exceptional and loving and committed people who really want

29
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,160
Speaker 2: the best for our kids. But the research doesn't always

30
00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,600
Speaker 2: point in the most helpful direction. So that's what this

31
00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,759
Speaker 2: conversation is about, just so that we can know what's happening.

32
00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,080
Speaker 2: Janet Ericson is a Fellow at the Institute for Family

33
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,920
Speaker 2: Studies in the United States, also a Fellow of the

34
00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 2: Wheatly Institution, and an Associate professor in the School of

35
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,040
Speaker 2: Family Life at Brigham Young University. Ericson's research, specializing in

36
00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,880
Speaker 2: maternal and child well being in the context of work

37
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,080
Speaker 2: and family life, has been feedured in all of the

38
00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,240
Speaker 2: big major news outlets, and as a Social Science Research

39
00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,360
Speaker 2: Fellow at the Heritage Foundation, she completed an extensive review

40
00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,760
Speaker 2: of research on the effects of non parental care on

41
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:16,240
Speaker 2: children's development, especially for policymakers. Jennet, I really appreciate you

42
00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,480
Speaker 2: giving some time staying up late in the United States

43
00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,560
Speaker 2: to talk with me about this conversation. Thanks for joining me.

44
00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:23,240
Speaker 1: So good to be with you. Thank you.

45
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,000
Speaker 2: Justin Jennett, You've got a couple of kids yourself. Personal question,

46
00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:28,760
Speaker 2: But can I ask did you put them into care

47
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,000
Speaker 2: or did you have the privilege and luxury of having

48
00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:32,280
Speaker 2: them at home with you for a few years.

49
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,960
Speaker 1: Yes, I did have the privilege and luxury of being

50
00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,680
Speaker 1: at home with them. I sometimes laugh that they got

51
00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,840
Speaker 1: too much of me, but it was important to me

52
00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:43,680
Speaker 1: to be able to do that, and I was able

53
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 1: to do that. My husband, he was put in daycare

54
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,200
Speaker 1: when he was six weeks old for forty hours a week,

55
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:51,760
Speaker 1: and I'll talk a little bit about his experience and

56
00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,280
Speaker 1: the findings that kind of track his experience.

57
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,000
Speaker 2: I thought you were going to tell me that you

58
00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:00,200
Speaker 2: could explain it all because of the forty US very

59
00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,600
Speaker 2: ploued me to say that, So, what does the research

60
00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,520
Speaker 2: point to when it comes to daycare? My recollection from

61
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,800
Speaker 2: all those years ago was that too little and too

62
00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,200
Speaker 2: much are definitely not healthier for kids. But there was

63
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,119
Speaker 2: I guess, an optimum number of hours where the kids

64
00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 2: seemed to settle in, feel good about the routine, and

65
00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,000
Speaker 2: do reasonably well. Yes, how's the research changed since well,

66
00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 2: the last time I looked at it twenty years ago.

67
00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,280
Speaker 1: Yes, I think you said, roughly. What So, the United

68
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 1: States did this massive study starting in the late eighties

69
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,760
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, and it tracked children and it's still tracking

70
00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,920
Speaker 1: those children across all of development. And it was fascinating because,

71
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 1: as you recognize, this is very sensitive, politically sensitive, difficult

72
00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 1: because it's getting to the core of what we care

73
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,120
Speaker 1: most about, like as parents and doing whatever we can

74
00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,880
Speaker 1: to help our children. And so as they started out,

75
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,920
Speaker 1: they were tracking data at six months and eighteen months

76
00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:51,720
Speaker 1: and twenty four months, and they found a little bit

77
00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,200
Speaker 1: of concern at twenty four months connected to what we

78
00:03:55,320 --> 00:04:00,400
Speaker 1: call early extensive daycare, which would mean putting day care

79
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 1: before nine months old for an extensive number of hours,

80
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,400
Speaker 1: which would be thirty five to forty hours per week.

81
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,800
Speaker 1: And they saw just a little bit of maybe concern

82
00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,720
Speaker 1: in terms of social emotional relationships those children had. By

83
00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,280
Speaker 1: thirty six months, three years, it looked like it disappeared

84
00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,600
Speaker 1: and everyone was like, oh good, that was just a

85
00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,200
Speaker 1: little blip. This isn't such a big deal. And then

86
00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,839
Speaker 1: at four and a half that challenge emerged strongly. And

87
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,040
Speaker 1: what it showed is that children who had entered extensive

88
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,120
Speaker 1: early hours of daycare that same idea within the first

89
00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,760
Speaker 1: year of life for thirty five to forty hours per

90
00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 1: week where at significantly increased risk of social emotional challenges,

91
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:48,320
Speaker 1: and that would be externalizing behaviors, internalizing behaviors, conflict with caregivers,

92
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,400
Speaker 1: conflict with parents, and so all of a sudden, it

93
00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,039
Speaker 1: was Jabelski, who was on that massive project, who just said,

94
00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,960
Speaker 1: we have to think about this. We can't just ignore

95
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,360
Speaker 1: or this. And then as they tracked the children across development,

96
00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,520
Speaker 1: it continued that kind of increased risk was seen in

97
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 1: kindergarten and then third grade and sixth grade, and it

98
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,640
Speaker 1: showed up in a little bit different way ninth grade

99
00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:20,080
Speaker 1: twelfth grade, where there was increased risk for risky behaviors

100
00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:25,440
Speaker 1: and showing up in that internalizing, externalizing way. So I

101
00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,640
Speaker 1: think what it alerted us to is that this isn't

102
00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,960
Speaker 1: just something to be cavalier about as a culture or

103
00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,760
Speaker 1: as individuals. And when we look at early development and

104
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,600
Speaker 1: this has become more clear as technologies allowed us to

105
00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,280
Speaker 1: look at brain development that you can see in the

106
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,839
Speaker 1: very earliest period of infancy, that whole right brain, which

107
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,719
Speaker 1: is the social emotional side, it's the affect side, it's

108
00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:57,600
Speaker 1: regulation of emotions, identity. It's really massively expanding one million

109
00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,280
Speaker 1: synapses a second, and so across that first year and

110
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,960
Speaker 1: a half, this side of the brain that really impacts

111
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,240
Speaker 1: our foundation. Social emotionally is a very sensitive period of

112
00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:14,240
Speaker 1: development and it's going to happen healthy when in connection

113
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,599
Speaker 1: with another caring human being, So that attachment relationship becomes

114
00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,920
Speaker 1: really important in that early period, and it's a sensitive,

115
00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:27,159
Speaker 1: responsive caregiver parent really that's shaping that development. That's typically mother,

116
00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,080
Speaker 1: because a child and mother are hardwired for that experience.

117
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:35,360
Speaker 1: And I think just appreciating it tells us a child

118
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 1: needs strong relationship from which to develop. And I think

119
00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 1: that provides the answer to the daycare research in the

120
00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,520
Speaker 1: sense that it's saying when there's a lot of hours

121
00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,280
Speaker 1: that that child is in an environment away from that caregiving,

122
00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,880
Speaker 1: then they could be at increased risk because of the

123
00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,720
Speaker 1: developmental processes that are going on in the brain. And

124
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,599
Speaker 1: at the same time, it tells us if those relationships

125
00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:08,760
Speaker 1: are strong, like mother father child relationships are strong, then

126
00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:12,360
Speaker 1: children are going to be okay. So the data showed

127
00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,600
Speaker 1: it didn't matter how much time a child was in

128
00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:20,040
Speaker 1: daycare in terms of impacting the attachment relationship. You could

129
00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,640
Speaker 1: have a secure relationship with that parent. It's a very

130
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,960
Speaker 1: important relationship no matter how many hours in daycare it appeared.

131
00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:32,720
Speaker 1: But apart from that, lots of hours could increase the

132
00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,960
Speaker 1: risk for some children of experiencing social emotional challenges and

133
00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,600
Speaker 1: to be aware of it. So I think for us,

134
00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,600
Speaker 1: you know, Canada experimented with this in Quebec and there

135
00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:44,880
Speaker 1: was a lot of news about it.

136
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,600
Speaker 2: I'm kind of a study. I was going to actually

137
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,040
Speaker 2: ask you about it, so I'm glad you brought it up.

138
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,480
Speaker 1: It was painful because the idea was, let's expand women's

139
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,200
Speaker 1: access essentially right to employment and increase productivity that way,

140
00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,240
Speaker 1: and so provide a government funded daycare at a cheap rate.

141
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,200
Speaker 1: It's like fifteen a month or something, and so everybody

142
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:08,760
Speaker 1: kind of got massively propelled into daycare and it wasn't

143
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,800
Speaker 1: It was really hard to maintain the quality that you

144
00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,160
Speaker 1: would want in that massive expansion and so quality was compromised.

145
00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:21,000
Speaker 1: But even when we consider quality factors, that early extensive

146
00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,240
Speaker 1: lots of hours was a predictor of challenges, not for

147
00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,440
Speaker 1: every child, but a chunk of those children even into

148
00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,960
Speaker 1: crime rates as they were young adults. So for us

149
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,760
Speaker 1: in the US, right, that was a caution that a

150
00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:43,199
Speaker 1: massive expansion of daycare may cause a huge number of children,

151
00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,600
Speaker 1: some of whome will be at greater risk for a

152
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,600
Speaker 1: large number of hours, and that that could compromise social

153
00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:51,400
Speaker 1: emotional health.

154
00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,280
Speaker 2: Several questions on this, I'll try to stick with one

155
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,000
Speaker 2: thing at a time. First off, you've used the word predictor.

156
00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,400
Speaker 2: You've talked about the relationship between these extended hours from

157
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,679
Speaker 2: a very early age in childcare and the potential negative

158
00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,599
Speaker 2: outcomes in later childhood and adolescents, whether it's social and

159
00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,800
Speaker 2: emotional things or whether it's risky and sensation seeking behavior.

160
00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,240
Speaker 2: The idea of something being a predictor, for those who

161
00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,280
Speaker 2: are not familiar with the psychological sciences, when we talk

162
00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,800
Speaker 2: about a predictor or an association, you're not saying that

163
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,480
Speaker 2: somebody who goes to daycare for extended hours from a

164
00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,640
Speaker 2: young age is going to become a criminal. That's not

165
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,800
Speaker 2: what you're saying. What you're suggesting is that the risk

166
00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:38,160
Speaker 2: of less optimal outcomes increases the more that that thing happens.

167
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,080
Speaker 2: So you also use the word risk factors. What other

168
00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,760
Speaker 2: risk factors exist that I guess increase the potential but

169
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,480
Speaker 2: things might not go well. And I guess, as an

170
00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,840
Speaker 2: extension of that question, what are the things that are protective?

171
00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,520
Speaker 2: If parents are literally saying my hands are tired, I

172
00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,400
Speaker 2: don't have a choice. I mean, we've got an Australian

173
00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,160
Speaker 2: government that is very much about growth and getting everybody

174
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,760
Speaker 2: into the workforce because that drives the economy. And to

175
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,760
Speaker 2: buy a house is just so expensive or even to rent,

176
00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:09,800
Speaker 2: so a lot of people feel trapped. They feel like

177
00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:11,640
Speaker 2: they have to So I'm sure a lot of people

178
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,200
Speaker 2: listening to this and saying, I want my child to

179
00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,480
Speaker 2: be socially and emotionally strong, I want to reduce the

180
00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,600
Speaker 2: risk of any risk taking behavior in sensation seeking US behaviors.

181
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,880
Speaker 2: What are the risk factors and the protective factors in

182
00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:22,720
Speaker 2: those early years?

183
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so so helpful. So a few on the child side,

184
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,920
Speaker 1: And I think interesting that for the Americans United States data,

185
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,760
Speaker 1: what it showed is that daycare centers themselves were particularly

186
00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,320
Speaker 1: at greater risk. So having a child in a family

187
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,320
Speaker 1: kind of care situation, right, the neighborhood care center seemed

188
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,400
Speaker 1: to be less consistently a predictor of increased risk than

189
00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:56,040
Speaker 1: the daycare center. So it suggests that you can provide

190
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,000
Speaker 1: a center, you know, a daycare situation that is more

191
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 1: like a family situation.

192
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,559
Speaker 2: Then, So would that be that's a quality of K

193
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,720
Speaker 2: issue on a stability of KGIVA issue. Well, I appreciate

194
00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,280
Speaker 2: that two central variables it.

195
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,120
Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly right. So a ratio that's that's right,

196
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,600
Speaker 1: more adult to child than you might find in a great,

197
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,280
Speaker 1: big center, right, could be helpful. Now, having said that,

198
00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,280
Speaker 1: there's no questions certain children are more susceptible than others.

199
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,440
Speaker 1: And I think parents are remarkable at being attuned to,

200
00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,520
Speaker 1: you know, for this child, it's really hard for them

201
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,440
Speaker 1: to be away for this one. They don't seem to

202
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,680
Speaker 1: have the same experience, and so it's clear that children

203
00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,640
Speaker 1: themselves are different. And then I think the other key

204
00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,920
Speaker 1: factor is looking at that early period especially, so it's

205
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,600
Speaker 1: that early entrance, in that first year of life when

206
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,840
Speaker 1: the brain is really at a more sensitive place in

207
00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:54,880
Speaker 1: terms of that kind of development that I think being

208
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,880
Speaker 1: mindful of that time. So when we ask parents in

209
00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,240
Speaker 1: the United States, like, what's your ideal work family kind

210
00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:02,000
Speaker 1: of situation?

211
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:02,440
Speaker 2: What do you do?

212
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,000
Speaker 1: Are you interested in full time daycare outside the home?

213
00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,360
Speaker 1: Are you interested in part time? Like you know, what

214
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,640
Speaker 1: does it look like? And really parents are what they

215
00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,920
Speaker 1: want to do with young young children is they want

216
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,079
Speaker 1: to handle the care themselves to the best that they

217
00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:20,200
Speaker 1: can and then have something more akin to family dynamic,

218
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,120
Speaker 1: to a family dynamic when they need outside of home care.

219
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,800
Speaker 1: Like there's just low interest in center care for children

220
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:29,600
Speaker 1: for long hours.

221
00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,280
Speaker 2: Americans like Australians on that, we've got to striyan out

222
00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,040
Speaker 2: of the points in the same direction I have whelmingly

223
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,240
Speaker 2: Astrolian parents say yeah, I absolutely want to be with

224
00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,440
Speaker 2: my kids for as long as I can as someone

225
00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,080
Speaker 2: as I can do with the economic realities that I'm facing.

226
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,160
Speaker 1: Yes. So my thought is, and I think this is

227
00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,960
Speaker 1: born out in research, is as we increase flexibility around

228
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,520
Speaker 1: work place time and really emphasize that, then we facilitate

229
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,200
Speaker 1: more of that dynamic. Because what happened during COVID for

230
00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 1: us is when you know parents in a certain works

231
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,040
Speaker 1: back from came home they were able to experience this

232
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,320
Speaker 1: dynamic of kind of shared caregiving and flexibility around all

233
00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,600
Speaker 1: of that, and they liked it. It was healthier, healthier

234
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,600
Speaker 1: for men and healthier for women. So you're trying to

235
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,200
Speaker 1: help provide a situation that's high quality for families who

236
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,480
Speaker 1: are at work, right to put children in a care

237
00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,400
Speaker 1: situation for as few hours as you can, right, but

238
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,120
Speaker 1: recognizing it's the stuff we do at home that matters.

239
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,559
Speaker 1: So I think you're recognizing that, but you're also trying

240
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,960
Speaker 1: on the other side to push for greater flexibility that

241
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,320
Speaker 1: will allow parents to do what they really want to do,

242
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,040
Speaker 1: and that's to manage that care themselves. And that's kind

243
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:38,960
Speaker 1: of an all hands on deck effort right on both

244
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,600
Speaker 1: sides of the policy world.

245
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,040
Speaker 2: Jenna, I'm listening to what you're saying. I'm thinking this

246
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,040
Speaker 2: is the podcast for the time pole parent who just

247
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,920
Speaker 2: wants chances. Now, as you've described the challenges that are

248
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,320
Speaker 2: associated with having children in care for extended periods from

249
00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,560
Speaker 2: a long from a young age, you've just highlighted what

250
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,440
Speaker 2: we do at home meta so much. You've talked about

251
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,640
Speaker 2: the importance of that attachment relationship. Great thing about Australia

252
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,120
Speaker 2: and another US doesn't have this, but in Australia we've

253
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,160
Speaker 2: got a paid parential leave scheme. My understanding is that

254
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,520
Speaker 2: it's based on the weekly national minimum wage trade which

255
00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,199
Speaker 2: is somewhere around about eight or nine hundred bucks a week,

256
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,120
Speaker 2: and the employee you can get paid for up to

257
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,360
Speaker 2: eighteen weeks and the money's either given directly to the

258
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,280
Speaker 2: employee or it goes via the employer to the employee,

259
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,480
Speaker 2: which is wonderfully helpful for parents for the first eighteen weeks.

260
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,920
Speaker 2: But as you said, less than six months, in fact,

261
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,560
Speaker 2: less than nine months is what we're trying to hang

262
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,880
Speaker 2: on to. We want the kids with this. Ben. If

263
00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,760
Speaker 2: I am a time poor parent who just wants answers now,

264
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,800
Speaker 2: and if I've got a young child, a young baby

265
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,240
Speaker 2: who I'm feeling well, I'm feeling torn. I can't afford

266
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,800
Speaker 2: to live because of inflation and cost of living pressures

267
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 2: unless I go back to work. What are the things

268
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,760
Speaker 2: that I can do to help my child to thrive

269
00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,640
Speaker 2: in spite of the fact that they're going to go

270
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 2: to some sort of care facility.

271
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,560
Speaker 1: I think you're looking for in every parent's doing this,

272
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,440
Speaker 1: they're trying to find a care situation that is as

273
00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,280
Speaker 1: good as it can be. And we know that infancy US.

274
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,120
Speaker 1: When an infant is put in daycare, they experience an

275
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,440
Speaker 1: increase of cortisol over the day.

276
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,480
Speaker 2: So that's a stress, that's the whole mind that makes

277
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,080
Speaker 2: you go, oh, I'm a little bit right now, a

278
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:10,960
Speaker 2: little bit stressed out.

279
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,200
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. And so I think we see that

280
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 1: there's a biological reality that and just being appreciative of

281
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,320
Speaker 1: the fact that that can be a stressor for a

282
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,520
Speaker 1: child to be away from this person, right that is,

283
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,000
Speaker 1: they're barely able to understand that they are a separate

284
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,240
Speaker 1: person from this person that they've attached to. So I

285
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,200
Speaker 1: think appreciating that and trying to find the right kind

286
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 1: of care situation. But the other thing that's interesting that

287
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,000
Speaker 1: you're highlighting is in the Quebec data, they found that

288
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,600
Speaker 1: some of the effect, the negative effect, was carried by

289
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,640
Speaker 1: healthy families who then stopped doing the practices they had

290
00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,720
Speaker 1: done before in terms of reading to children at night time,

291
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,240
Speaker 1: with children at night. And I don't know if it

292
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,040
Speaker 1: was that they thought, well, that's being taken care of

293
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,480
Speaker 1: in the daycare center, so we don't need to do

294
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,400
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, but it itself had implications for

295
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:04,120
Speaker 1: the child's I think highlighting that even if that child

296
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,600
Speaker 1: is away from you during hours, maintaining those connecting practices

297
00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,840
Speaker 1: of holding, of reading to of playing, of eating together,

298
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,960
Speaker 1: of having consistent rituals of connection, they're very, very powerful,

299
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,920
Speaker 1: and they can be hard to maintain, right because it's like, ah, there,

300
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,880
Speaker 1: we got so much to do. But it's almost like

301
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:30,160
Speaker 1: just the consistency of bedtime routines of connection, rituals that

302
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,320
Speaker 1: even might not take a lot of time, but they're

303
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:37,400
Speaker 1: reliable and consistent. They carry unbelievable weight in my experience.

304
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,560
Speaker 2: I love that price rituals of connection.

305
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,320
Speaker 1: Rituals of connection I've and they are powerful, and they

306
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,040
Speaker 1: don't have to take a lot of time, they don't

307
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,440
Speaker 1: have to take a lot of money. And children hunger.

308
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 1: They hunger for an experience of connection with parents, and

309
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,760
Speaker 1: so I think protecting those when we can't protect all

310
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 1: the time that we might want, is to just highlight

311
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,000
Speaker 1: the value of that time.

312
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,440
Speaker 2: Janet Ericsson is a Fellow at the Institute for Family Studies,

313
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,919
Speaker 2: a Fellow of the Weekly Institution, and Associate professor in

314
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,280
Speaker 2: the School of Family Life at Brigham Young University. She's

315
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,720
Speaker 2: done a whole lot of research on nonparental care, on

316
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:18,159
Speaker 2: children's development for policymakers and Janet, just so grateful for

317
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,560
Speaker 2: what you've shared with us in this conversation. I think

318
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,879
Speaker 2: that what you've offered is reassurance and a way through

319
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,199
Speaker 2: when we're sometimes dealing with the things in life that

320
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,919
Speaker 2: we wouldn't necessarily choose for ourselves, but they're foisted upon

321
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,080
Speaker 2: us because the world is what it is. So thank

322
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:34,560
Speaker 2: you so much for your conversation with us today.

323
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,960
Speaker 1: So good to be with you. Thank you. Justin.

324
00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,000
Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from

325
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,399
Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruis is our executive producer. For more

326
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,680
Speaker 2: information about how to make your family happier and especially

327
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,240
Speaker 2: to deal with your little people and their big feelings,

328
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,440
Speaker 2: check out our resources online at happy families dot com

329
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,120
Speaker 2: dot au and while you're there, jump on the wait

330
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 2: list for the Quest. The Quest is our brand new

331
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 2: membership program designed to literally hold your hand step by

332
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,560
Speaker 2: step as we take your family from well hopefully reasonably

333
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,760
Speaker 2: functional to absolutely flourishing. All the details or at happy

334
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:08,200
Speaker 2: families dot com dot Au